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Nancy Grace

Cop Fired for Lying About Relationship With Missing Toddler`s Mother

Aired August 26, 2008 - 20:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. Shocking, and I mean really shocking, new developments in the case of that beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee last seen with her mother, Casey. Little Caylee has been missing, as you probably know, for 10 long weeks. Now just in the last couple of hours, police announce one of their own has been fired for allegedly lying about his connection to Casey Anthony. A sheriff`s deputy reportedly had a sexual relationship and numerous on-line chats with mother, Casey, just weeks before little Caylee goes missing. This as more than 400 pages of key documents in the investigation are released.
And we have even more bombshells for you tonight, bombshells so big. the California bounty hunter who helped bail out Casey now says if he knew then what he knows now, he probably would not have come to Orlando at all. Yet another witness claims Casey abandoned car smelled just like a dead body. And it`s revealed mom, Casey, took little Caylee to adult parties and poker nights, drinking and partying just feet from where the little girl slept on a couch.

We already knew Casey Anthony stole money and gas from her own parents, but now comes word Casey actually stole -- get this -- money from her own 80-year-old grandma and allegedly cleaned out a friend`s bank account. Still tonight, the big question remains, where, oh, where is 3- year-old Caylee Anthony?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s it about?





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Former Orange County deputy Tony Rusciano did not want to talk to us about Casey or Caylee Anthony. The 24-year-old was only on the force for six months until he was fired on Friday. Deputies found out he was linked to the 22-year-old mother just a few weeks ago. When he was questioned about knowing her, he initially told them that he met her at a party and barely knew her. But he was terminated after detectives looked into the relationship a little further.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Could this be the big break in the case we`ve all been waiting for? Shocking, really shocking new developments as more than 400 pages of key documents are released in the search for 3-year-old Florida girl Caylee Anthony. This as a sheriff`s deputy is caught lying during the investigation over his alleged sexual relationship with Casey.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County sheriff`s deputy was fired just hours ago after it was proven that he lied about reportedly having a sexual relationship with Caylee`s mother, Casey Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They did a forensic search of Casey Anthony`s computer and typed in some key words. It led them to pages of chats between Rusciano and Anthony. They did talk about her daughter, Caylee, in those chats, but none of the chat was truly meaningful in terms of helping detectives find the missing three 3-year-old. We do understand that Rusciano and Anthony had a sexual relationship. Apparently, they were talking to each other around the end of May, which would be just weeks before Casey says she last saw her daughter.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. The big bombshell of the evening in the very same Florida sheriff`s department that is investigating the disappearance of little Caylee Anthony, word that a sheriff`s deputy has been fired for allegedly lying about his relationship with that missing child`s mother, Casey. The sheriff`s department isn`t revealing the nature of their relationship, but reporter Jessica D`Onofrio, of CNN affiliate WKMG, is reporting that the cop and Casey had a sexual relationship.

For the latest on this truly stunning development, let`s go straight out to that very reporter. Jessica, tell us everything you know about this alleged relationship.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, what I know is that he was terminated five days ago. He wasn`t fired for having a relationship with Casey Anthony, he was fired for lying about it. Detectives got word that he might know her a couple weeks ago, so they started asking him questions. How do you know her? How long have you known her for? They actually interviewed him twice, and detectives say that he lied to them twice about the nature of his relationship with her.

Come to find out, they went into Casey Anthony`s computer that they had seized a while ago. They were able to put in some keyword searches. And then up pops a chat between Casey Anthony and Tony Rusciano, this deputy that was just fired. In the chat, you can see that they obviously had some kind of relationship. You can also understand that they are talking about Caylee at points in time in that conversation. But what I`m told is that there`s no reason to believe that there was anything in those chats that would lead them to find this missing 3-year-old.

I understand that he did have a romantic relationship with Casey Anthony. Of course, you know, he was fired because -- not because he had this relationship with her but because he lied about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jessica, how did they meet?

D`ONOFRIO: From what we understand, he met her at a party. Initially, he said he had met her at a party but he barely knew her. They looked through that computer and found out that wasn`t the case. And of course, when he was confronted with that, he `fessed up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I understand that her ex-fiancee was also a cop and possibly he was the one who introduced the two of them?

D`ONOFRIO: I don`t have that confirmed. But Jesse Grund (ph) -- he is an Orlando police officer -- he recently resigned. She was dating him for a while, and I believe that there are some questions about whether he introduced Casey to this deputy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is such a shocker. Let`s go to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. You have been covering this from the very beginning. And let`s talk about this alleged sexual relationship between Casey and this cop who has now resigned. According to the timeline, wasn`t she also having a relationship with somebody else around the end of May, a guy named Tony?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Tony Lazaro she was having a relationship with, Jane. Here`s the deal, is that she was almost living with Lazaro at the same time when all this was going down when, all of a sudden, Caylee went missing. And Lazaro and she were basically living together. So basically, she was playing two people against each other, which is pretty interesting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Marva Hinton, reporter for WDBO radio, also covering this case from the very start, let us tally up the number of relationships that we can attribute, at least allegedly, to this 22-year- old Casey. How many are we talking about, and who are we talking about?

MARVA HINTON, WDBO: Well, just since little Caylee has been missing, she was reportedly involved with four different men. We`ve mentioned some of them already tonight -- Tony Lazaro, Jesse Grund -- back at the end of June, they spent a weekend at the beach together. There`s also Ricardo Morales (ph). I think -- I`m not sure if we`ve mentioned him or not. But she was also spending time with him and with the deputy who was fired. So that`s four different men all while little Caylee was missing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then, of course, we have the mystery of who is the father of Caylee, which apparently has not been solved whatsoever. Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "Killing For Sport," there is nothing illegal about having relationships. But given the nature of this case and some of the other things that have come into play -- the allegations of drug use on the part of some friends that are in the documents -- and we have 400 pages here of documents which we first showed you last night that we`ve been going through all night long to get all the details -- so again, you know, having a relationship isn`t illegal. But do we have to bring in the issue or the question of promiscuity or alleged promiscuity into the mix? And what could it signify?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I think the most interesting thing about Casey`s many boyfriends after Caylee went missing is the simple fact that she wouldn`t have any time to look for her child if she`s got all these relationships going and that she would even have an interest in starting up one relationship after another when her child is missing. So that puts more validity in the fact that she had no interest in looking for her child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, to add to what was just said, there is another huge shocker in this case -- and it seems like every page of that 400 pages had a shocker, another bombshell -- but reports the that after Caylee went missing, at least two friends told investigators that Casey asked them to go nightclubbing. This is after her little girl goes missing.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: If a person doesn`t have a conscience, they have no capacity for empathy and they don`t experience anxiety the way normal people do. They live in the moment, and they`re impulsive, just looking to serve their own needs. So if you don`t experience guilt, if you don`t have a conscience, if you`re basically a sociopath, then there`s no problem going out partying or having 25 lovers while your baby is out there alone and possibly dead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who helped get Casey out of jail, I understand that you have said today -- and we`ve seen it -- that if you`d known all along what you found out after these 400 pages were revealed, you might not have come at all to bail Casey out. Explain.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: After reading it, I don`t believe I would have talked my nephew, Tony Padilla, into posting the bond, and I certainly don`t believe that I would have come to Orlando after reading that. I mean, I`m still hoping that the little girl is alive, but there`s a lot of information in those 400 pages that would lead people to believe something different.

And then with these revelations about her mental state of mind -- I mean, it`s -- I place myself in a position of saying, OK, what would I do if my 3-year-old was missing, or even my 16-year-old? And I don`t know that I could survive something like that, much less go partying or do any of that kind of stuff. It`s just -- so this -- a lot of these things I interpreted as, Well, somebody that she knows and trusts has the baby, and therefore it`s not bothering her because she feels confident. I still deep down hope that that`s what it is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, I don`t have children, but I have three dogs that I love very much. And I would never not worry about my three dogs if I left them with somebody 10 weeks ago. Obviously, I`d be worried about them. So this whole idea that she`s not concerned because she left them with a friend -- I don`t buy that for one second, Leonard.

PADILLA: I -- you can beat me up. I mean, you know, I`ve got three dogs at home and I call home every day and I ask about them. I -- you know, and my 16-year-old, so I -- what can I say?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you are having second thoughts after all, after all that you`ve done.

PADILLA: I`ve lost confidence in a couple of the people that are working with me on this particular situation. I mean, you know, that report was an eye-opener, definitely an eye-opener.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fascinating stuff. Let`s bring in the defense attorneys, Richard Herman and Ray Giudice. You`ve been listening to all of this, and we`ll start with Richard. Are we making too much of this? Is this piling on against this young woman who hasn`t had a chance to defend herself, or is this just one horrible revelation, one bombshell after another that points in one very disturbing direction?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hey, you know, Jane, I put a chart together. I list everything she`s done from the time that child went missing up to the present, all the lies, all the boyfriends, everything going on. You want to talk about a diminished capacity defense? This girl`s not just a sociopath, she has no clue what`s going on. I`m telling you, I don`t believe she can even perceive what is happening, that her kid`s missing, what`s going on. Her brain is gone!

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ray Giudice, you agree, or do you think perhaps this is a woman -- I mean, if you go to anybody and you interview all of their friends, you`re going to come up with some dirt. I don`t care who you are. People are going to say, Oh, yes, you were partying. I mean, so where do we draw the line? How do we know when we`re being fair or unfair?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the conversation tonight has been a very interesting psychoanalysis of this young lady, who we all know is deeply disturbed. But there`s been no shred of additional evidence. Those 400-and-some-odd pages just confirm everything we`ve known and assumed about this young lady, that she`s a sociopath, she`s a lousy parent, she`s reckless, which may have led to the harm to this child. But there`s not one more shred of evidence for a homicide indictment today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport," investigators say Casey knows the truth. She`s the key to answering this. Now, she had clammed up despite more than 30 days in isolation in jail. Leonard Padilla said, I`m going to bail her out because once she has a hot meal and gets a manicure, she`s going to start talking. Apparently, that hasn`t happened. Do you think all these revelations are going to make her sort of come clean -- Oh, my God, look what everybody`s saying, I better tell the truth?

BROWN: Oh, no, not at all, Jane, because she is a psychopath. She`s not going to do that. She`s going continue what she`s doing because she`s hoping to buy more time. The more time that goes by, the more the elements will destroy all the evidence out there, the more decomp will destroy the elements. And she knows she can just sit there and let things go. And there`s no sense in her doing anything except wait it out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, let`s talk about a diagnosis. You just heard "psychopath." Cindy`s own mother has been quoted by a friend as calling her a sociopath. Another friend calls her bipolar. Experts on this program have said she suffers from anti-social personality disorder. Which one is it, or is it all of them?

SAUNDERS: Well, I haven`t interviewed her, so I can`t offer a diagnosis. But people use the terms sociopath and psychopath interchangeably. The anti-social personality disorder has some other features, where people habitually commit criminal acts or habitually violate the legal rights of others. So I think it`s more in the department of sociopathy or a psychopath, as Pat Brown was saying. The hallmarks of it are very shallow emotion, no anxiety, very poor bonding with anybody. This woman has a history -- alleged history of not really having any substantial relationships with anybody. And I fear that she doesn`t really bond with her baby.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you know, I have to say -- and I say this as a recovering alcoholic with 13 years of sobriety. When I hear her talk about going clubbing after the baby goes missing, what I think about is somebody trying to escape because what is drugs, what is alcohol but a form of escape? And then you go to a club. And you know, there`s the music and the noise. And if somebody`s running away from a truth that they don`t want to face, isn`t that behavior they`re likely to exhibit as they sort of try to escape from the realities that would descend upon them if they sat alone in a room?

SAUNDERS: You`re making the assumption of a normal person who`s in recovery. Perhaps her escape is from boredom, which is something that the sociopath or the psychopath cannot tolerate. They`re constantly seeking stimulation and excitement. They`re an empty vessel with very little inside.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Marva Hinton, reporter with WDBO radio, what has she been doing today? Because you know, when she left jail, she said to her lawyer, I`m innocent, I`m going to walk out with my head high, as the reporters descended upon her during that storm, with the umbrella, that famous, now infamous shot. Well, apparently, going to and from her lawyer`s office, she`s running in and out. She`s not walking with her head high.

HINTON: That`s right, Jane. It looks like Casey really doesn`t want to be seen. She did go running to her car. One thing I thought that was very odd about today and very eerie is that Casey was wearing a T-shirt that had little Caylee`s picture on it. And that`s something that her parents have been doing, but just to see her do it and knowing all the evidence that`s come out, it was just very strange to see that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. You know, I want to go back to Richard Herman and Ray Giudice. Ray, this deputy was not fired, as the reporter mentioned, for having a relationship but for allegedly lying about it. What`s the distinction there?

GIUDICE: Right. Well, he didn`t do anything wrong, first of all. He had a relationship with another adult, consensual, apparently. And this all took place, apparently, before the child came up missing. So he should have came in when he saw her name and her picture spread upon the news and `fessed up, and I think he`d still be working.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is the possibility this child is no longer alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. That can be concluded.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And is Miss Anthony a suspect in that circumstance?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn`t use the word suspect. I would use the word person of interest.





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have to tell me if you know anything about Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CHILD: You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that she`s safe.


CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter`s safe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m right along with the rest of America, going, I don`t understand. I`m confused.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. A stunning, truly unbelievable bombshell, the Florida sheriff`s department investigating the disappearance of little Caylee now says it just fired a deputy for allegedly lying about having a relationship with that missing girl`s mom, Casey. And one TV station is claiming they were doing the nasty. In other words, that it was allegedly a sexual relationship.

Jessica D`Onofrio, reporter CNN affiliate WKMG, you reported it was a sexual relationship. What information do you have to reach that conclusion?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, because that`s what I was told by one of my sources, is that the deputy who was terminated just five days ago had admitted at some point in the interview that he was romantically involved with Casey Anthony. So I heard it from one of my sources.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s go to the phone lines. Rachelle, Alabama. Your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I have a statement and one quick question. First of all, they keep saying she was passed off to somebody. She fell in love. She maybe brokered her. This little child`s face has been ingrained in everybody`s mind in the United States by now. Where are they keeping her if she`s been passed off? And second, Mr. Padilla now believes that he probably wouldn`t have put this money down. Can`t he revoke his bond?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, good question. Leonard Padilla, take it away.

PADILLA: Well, it`s not really my call. It`s my nephew. He`s the bondsman, and he has control of the bond. If he was to decide to revoke it, he could do that, yes. But normally, it`s not a thing that`s done because a bondsman is in the business of freeing people from jail, not guilt or innocence. And so I don`t think he would do that, no.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Anthony admitted to the FBI that when he first smelled his daughter`s car, he thought it was the odor of a body.


CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING CHILD`S GRANDMOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police also spoke with the facility manager of the tow truck company that was holding Casey Anthony`s car, and he told cops that the smell coming from Anthony`s car reminded him of the smell from another car where a man committed suicide.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. A deputy now fired for allegedly lying about having a relationship, allegedly, according to some, a sexual relationship with Casey Anthony, the missing Florida girl`s mom. That shocker just in late this afternoon.

Lighting up the phone lines. Sheinna from West Virginia, your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not buying the whole fired because he has sex with that girl. There has to be more. I have a lot of friends who are in law enforcement. That`s just not enough to get a cop fired. We know officers are known for not having trouble finding women. There has to be something deeper, drugs, or maybe he knows something actually about the murder. They would not fire him just for lying about having sex with this girl.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Jessica D`Onofrio, you broke the story in part. What do you say?

D`ONOFRIO: Yes, I can answer that question. He was fired for lying to detectives about this. When they come to him and ask him a question, How do you know her, and he says, I don`t know her, he -- I only kind of knew her, and he provides incomplete answers, that`s a problem to detectives. So he was fired for lying to them, not for having this relationship with her.



UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Shocking documents, over 400 pages long, reveal new details about the investigation. And it`s a bombshell.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The shocking thing, she wanted to give up Caylee for adoption.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy saying that they have nothing to hide and her daughter held her head high. But in these documents she`s describing her daughter, allegedly, as a socio path, that her daughter is doing drugs, and her daughter expressed regret for having the child because now she can`t go out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She mentioned that she wish she hadn`t had Caylee because she`s not able to do the type of things she likes to do like go out. In the days after Caylee went missing we received pictures of her partying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a one signed document, it`s all damaging, it`s all prejudicial, and it gives great bother to all of us to say, wow, what a scum bag she must be because she said this and she said that.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

The case of missing Caylee Anthony morphing by the second with shocker after shocker, bombshell claims of sex, drugs and hard partying by mom Casey.

Now we`re at the very same Florida sheriff`s department investigating the disappearance of little Caylee Anthony just fired one of its own deputy for allegedly lying about having a relationship with the missing girl`s mom Casey.

And beyond this, take a look at this, if you didn`t see it before, more than 400 pages of explosive documents in the case are released where at least two friends say Casey invited them to go nightclubbing after her daughter went missing.

But let`s go back to Jessica D`Onofrio, reporter with CNN affiliate WKMG about the big bombshell of the evening -- this reported relationship between Casey and the cop.

Bring us up to date again on the details, specifically why you think it`s a sexual relationship?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, WKMG: Well, I heard that from a source that he admitted that when he was being interviewed by detectives. Again, he was fired just about five days ago from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office for having a relationship with Casey -- not for having a relationship, but just because he lied about it. That was the big problem.

And I want to point out something about the Orange County`s Sheriff Office here, too. If they are going after who they`re calling a liar, namely Casey Anthony, you can imagine that they would want to employ an admitted liar, a deputy on their own force.

So, you know, of course, in this instance it`s appropriate, it seems, that they let him go, especially because they are trying to pursue who they are calling a liar in this case, and that`s Casey Anthony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Jessica, just imagine how psychologically debilitating it has to be to all the investigators. Do you know how hard it is to compile these much evidence? All the people they interviewed, the evidence they collected, all the work they did, and then to have this undermine them has to make them crazy. And I -- I hope they recoup from it very quickly.

Jessica, I understand you have a question for Leonard Padilla.

D`ONOFRIO: Yes, I do have a question for Leonard Padilla. I mean, you know, we got these 400-plus pages of documents yesterday. And really it`s only going over a lot of what we found out in the initial affidavit that was handed out to all the media from day one on this case.

It`s just very curious to me, Leonard, how -- you know, you could have read that from the beginning, instead of coming all the way out to Orlando and being shocked by this new information yesterday.

It makes me question your motives for being out here.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, BAILED OUT CASEY ANTHONY FROM JAIL: Go ahead and question them. But I`m telling you this, you have to couple that with the fact that she has totally not cooperated with us.

We wanted to get her out because if she said if she got out, she wanted to go find her daughter. That was the prime reason for getting her out and that is, go find her daughter.

Sure, there`s a slight chance today that we can still find her alive. We`re still working on that. However.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard, did you really think that they were going to let her go off with you and go on some kind of hike to find her daughter? I mean when they release somebody under these conditions, they`re going to have an ankle bracelet monitoring them.

Were your expectations realistic given.

PADILLA: No, no, no, stop. I didn`t think they`d let her go with us. I thought she`d sit down and we`d talk in front of her attorney and she`d say, well, let me fill some of the blanks. Let me tell you the truth about what happened.

There was no Zenaida, there was no Apartment 210, there was no Blanchard Park. Here`s what I really did.


PADILLA: Nothing -- she`s not be forthcoming about anything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right, but it turns out that her lawyer won`t let her talk to you. I mean you could have called the lawyer and found that out from the get-go.

PADILLA: No, no, no. The attorney said -- the only time that he -- he would allow her to talk to us if she wants to talk to us, he`ll allow it. In his presence, he will allow her to discuss it with us.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let me ask you this question while we`re on this - subject, and I don`t mean to beat you up because you seem a little down.

PADILLA: No, that`s fine. Go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But there are a lot of people who say, look, you`re going to get that $50,000 back that you posted for her bail when this case is finally adjudicated.

PADILLA: No, no, no.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, basically, you got millions of dollars worth of free publicity as a bounty hunter.

PADILLA: Stop. You don`t know what you`re talking about.


PADILLA: I paid $50,000 for a half million dollar bond.


PADILLA: The 50,000 is spent. Now half million dollar bond gets exonerated when she goes back to custody or she`s exonerated. It hasn`t got anything to do with the $50,000.

You folks should learn about.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. Now I -- my understanding was that if the case is adjudicated -- let`s say, for example, the charges are dropped or whatever, she`s -- she walks scot-free that you get that $50,000 back. You`re saying nobody gets that $50,000 back.

PADILLA: Wrong. That`s spent money. It`s like your car insurance. Just because you don`t have an accident in the year doesn`t mean you get it back. The bondsman -- that`s how he makes his money.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ve clarified it and thank you for being a good sport.

PADILLA: Yes. That`s fine.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to another very patient man, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, one of my favorites forensic scientist par excellence.

Another shocker, in these documents is that a manager at the tow yard who dealt with Casey`s car says that it smells just like another car he`s once dealt with where it turned out a man had committed suicide in that car and the body sat there for five days.

In other words, he smelled the smell of death.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Yes, that -- absolutely, Jane. I think the smell is very characteristic of decomposition. It`s something that once you`re familiar with it, you never forget it.

But I got to pull back and remind everybody that, although the case, as time goes on, looks worse and worse for Casey, you have to remember that, you know, the physical evidence -- the reports are not in.

We don`t have any serology, we don`t have any DNA. We don`t have the air sampling, so we really have no physical evidence. What we`re hearing about is the investigation is turning up facts that make us really suspicious.

But without having those facts, I would tell my students, don`t try to reconstruct the events of this possible crime until you`ve got it all together. There`s a lot missing here from the puzzle.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Richard Herman, defense attorney, and Ray Giudice, do we have a motive? Because the big bombshell from yesterday was that a friend said that Casey wanted to give her daughter up for adoption back when she was still pregnant and her mother, Cindy, nixed that idea.


RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m sorry. What was she 19 years old when she found out she was pregnant without a father? Come on, that`s reasonable.

I want to know -- what`s going on in Orlando where all these people know what dead bodies smell like? The mother, this guy at the car place? How do people know what dead bodies smell like first of all?

And why don`t you ask Mr. Padilla, who did he give the $50,000 to? Who did he pay that money to, to get that bond?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hmm, OK, well, Leonard, you want to answer that one?

PADILLA: Sure, I got no problem with it. It was paid to my nephew. He`s a bail bondsman. That`s what he does for a living.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We got an answer to that question.

Jim, Indiana, your question, sir?

JIM, INDIANA RESIDENT: Hi, Jane. My question pertained to Mr. Padilla. And, with all due respect, at what point do you and your associates decided to cut your losses and hightail it back to California and get as far as away from this case as possible?

PADILLA: Hightail it -- we`re going to stick around until we either find a live Caylee or put a strong effort into finding a dead Caylee.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are you even.

PADILLA: We`re not going to hightail.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re out there in an RV outside their house, but do you have any contact with them whatsoever? Do you know what -- whether she`s watching TV and watching all this coverage?

PADILLA: No, I have no contact with her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what are you accomplishing being out there?

PADILLA: Well, the people that are there are actually working on a lot of information that we receive. I`m -- some of the time when I stop by there. But I`m not there on a consistent basis.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, where are you staying?

PADILLA: At a hotel here in town.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Boy, you know, you can`t make this stuff up. And I know you don`t have your cowboy hat anymore. You seem a little glum. Do you feel that this might come back to bite you, Leonard? This whole thing?

PADILLA: Absolutely not. If it wasn`t for me the media would have forgotten about it. It wouldn`t have got a second effort. Here`s my hat. So you don`t think I`m.


PADILLA: . not wearing my hat.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. All right. Touche.

As we go toy break a special happy birthday to Millie in Palestine, Ohio.

We`re going to be covering a lot more in just a moment on this Caylee disappearance.

But right there, you have the birthday girl with her daughter Bev turning 90 years old today. Millie never, ever misses a show here on the NANCY GRACE show.

Happy birthday, Millie.




UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Disturbing new details about a missing 3-year- old Caylee Anthony and her mom. According to court documents released by prosecutors, Anthony wanted to give up her unborn daughter for adoption, but Casey`s mom insisted she keep the baby.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF CAYLEE: Caylee was born unexpected. My daughter was 19. We welcomed her with open harms.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: On her MySpace page dated July 7th, about a week before Caylee was reported missing, Anthony posted, "What is given can be taken away. Everyone lies, everyone dies. Life will never be easy."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Chilling comments. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

So many stunning twists and turns tonight in the case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. Now cops say one of their own had a relationship with the missing girl`s mom Casey. That as more disturbing claims surfaced about that young woman in more than 400 pages I`m holding right here of newly released documents.

Among the shocking claims, that Casey`s own mom Cindy told a friend that Casey stole not just from her, but from Casey`s own 80-year-old grandmother, by using routing numbers from a check that was a birthday gift.

And now, Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who helped bailed Casey out, just said moments ago on this show if he had known about all of this, he might not have come over and bailed her out.

But I want to bring Richard Herman, defense attorney, and Leonard Padilla, together for a second to debate this issue of the $50,000 and where it goes.

Richard, what are you saying? And let`s give Leonard a chance to respond.

HERMAN: Well, Leonard came off high and mighty before trying to belittle you about that $50,000. But that`s in his family. That stays in the family, that $50,000. He`s not losing that money, and he knows it.

He came out here for the publicity and now that she`s not talking to him, he`s got to keep his face up in the highlights.

Get out, stop making these comments about her. You`re jeopardizing the defense. You came, you posted the bond. That`s it now. Stop saying she`s not being forthcoming. Stop trying to destroy the defense of this case.


PADILLA: I went to law school. I know he`s got to say that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, listen, you know, the $50,000 goes back to the bail bondsman, which is your nephew, so it stays in the family, is what he`s saying.

PADILLA: Well, let me tell you about my family. I have two sisters that haven`t talked to me in 10 years. I got a brother in the same business. He hasn`t talked to me in 10 years.

Believe me, we`re not -- we`re not a follow-the-sheep type family like that defense attorney probably is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s move on to another bombshell aspect of this case.

Marva Hinton, reporter, WDBO Radio, there`s so many shocking charges in those 400 pages it`s hard to keep track of all of them. But one of Casey`s friends named Amy said Casey brought her 2-year-old daughter Caylee to adult parties.

Tell us all about that.

MARVA HINTON, WDBO RADIO REPORTER: Well, she was saying that when they would go out and they`d have these parties that she would just bring little Caylee. She put little Caylee her on a couch while the adults were doing what they were doing. And this is, just as you said, another disturbing detail that came out of those 400 pages.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go back to Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist, about the trunk of the car that was abandoned by Casey and the DNA test on them.

Is it all going to boil down to DNA? And also, can they tell from that DNA whether the DNA was from a dead body as opposed to a living body? Because, obviously, there would, in its explanation, for a living DNA of the family car.

KOBILINSKY: No, Jane. You really can`t tell if the source is living or dead. However, if there`s decomposition, which we will know when we get the results of the air testing -- if there`s decomposition of DNA you will get a breakdown of high molecular weight, good quality DNA into a degraded form.

And that may be the reason that it`s taking so long to get results. But the key here is, if there`s decomposition there, if Caylee`s DNA is there, I think there`s enough there to convict. You don`t need a body. You can`t put those two items together in the same place without the unmistakable conclusion that Caylee is no longer alive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ray Giudice, defense attorney, they all saw no body, no case. But Larry Kobilinsky is saying maybe not.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with the doctor. You don`t need a body to have a case. That`s been tried and trued over and over again. I also agree with the doctor that if we have DNA evidence of decomposing matter in that trunk of that car, that`s where they`re going to start to build the case.

All of this other stuff is just hypothesis and assumptions. DNA, (INAUDIBLE) forensic DNA will move the case forward.

But let me also say, if it`s negative, you`ve got a lot of people who think they know what the smell of death is, that don`t know what they`re talking about, and that`s going to come back to haunt the prosecution.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right -- Kathy from Alabama, your question, ma`am.



KATHY: My question is, if the deputy that was fired had nothing to high, he would have no reason to lie. And could you ask Leonard if he could to elaborate on the two colleagues he was talking about. And also I`ve smelled a dead body in the woods and I didn`t know what it was, but it was totally -- you knew it was totally different from anything else.

Thank you.


Leonard Padilla, why don`t you take it away?

PADILLA: There was two gentlemen that came out here. After I arrived they came out when they read parts of the report and all that. They said, hey, we`re out of here. So they went back to California. Probably in line with what your defense attorney there is saying.

But, by the same token, you know, they haven`t said whose DNA is in the trunk. If there was a dead body, it might be -- hey, there`s other people who might have.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, anything is possible, Leonard.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But what we`re saying is that is there a certain responsibility in coming up with theories that have some basis in fact.

PADILLA: That`s correct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jessica D`Onofrio, reporter, let`s talk a little bit about, you know, this whole issue of why this officer lied. He didn`t really have to lie. What was his motive for lying, do you think?

D`ONOFRIO: You know I don`t know what his motive for lying was. And I`m not here to defend this former deputy, but I will say, if you look at everybody who`s come forward in this case, people who`ve given interviews on various national news programs, after they give these interviews or after they admit to one thing or another or their name is released, a lot of these folks have received death threats.

They`ve gotten threats from all over the country. It seems that anyone who touches this case gets into some kind of trouble like that. And I`m not defending this deputy by any means. That`s not what I`m here to do. But I can see the apprehension from a lot of people who have -- who have had contact with Casey Anthony not wanting to say that they have.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in Nancy Grace.

Pat Brown, criminal profiler, what occurs to me is this deputy lost an opportunity to be a hero. If he had told his authorities, his supervisors, that he`d had this relationship from the outset, he could have been used to go in there and talk to Casey, and maybe get the truth and bring it back to his bosses.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Well, I don`t think he would have gotten the truth anyway, Jane. That`s just not going to happen.

However, I think the caller that was -- earlier said there may have been some other reason they got rid of him. I don`t think it necessarily had to do with this case but he may have had some behaviors before that -- you know when this came up, this was just kind of a good opportunity.

So he may have had some, and I say, squirrelly behavior that was a little uncomfortable for everybody but it didn`t necessarily have to do with this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We only have a couple of seconds.

Let`s bring in the lawyers, Richard Herman and Ray Giudice. In these 400 pages, is there a smoking gun, yes or no, Richard?

GIUDICE: I didn`t see anything. Richard?

HERMAN: Absolutely not. Ray is right. There is no smoking gun and a lot of it is not going to admissible. The only evidence.

GIUDICE: It`s a rehash.

HERMAN: The only evidence comes in court, Jane. You know that.

GIUDICE: Yes. And it`s just a rehash.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, but I mean, do you see a smoking gun?

HERMAN: No. Absolutely not.

GIUDICE: No, Jane. This is the same stuff we know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m not playing Perry Mason. I`m saying did you see one. I guess you didn`t. And you guys both agree and you`re both very good lawyers so I assume that you`re probably right.

All right, tonight let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Terrell Gilmore, 38, from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, killed in Iraq. Highly decorated. Awarded the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star and Army Service Ribbon. He also served in Operation Desert Storm.

He leaves behind a large and grieving family, parents Nancy and Truman, five sisters, four brothers, widow Billie, and seven children.

Terrell Gilmore, an American hero.

Thanks to all our guests for their insights and thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. I guarantee you, there will be more developments.

Meantime, have a terrific and a safe evening.