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Nancy Grace

Investigators Confirm Belief Missing Florida Toddler Is Dead

Aired September 01, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 11 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. Investigators go on the record, announcing there is forensic evidence of human decomposition in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. All indicators are it was 3-year-old Caylee`s body. This as mom, Casey, back behind bars for cleaning out a so-called friend`s checking account, police hauling her out of her parents` home.

And a Sacramento bounty hunter comes off mom, Casey`s, $500,000 bond. We`re back at square one, Caylee`s mom still offering no clue as to the little girl`s whereabouts. Out on bond, mom, Casey, refused to attend vigils, talk to the cops, talk to the feds, or even help in the volunteer search for 3-year-old Caylee.

Right now, that clock is ticking on an immunity deal set to run out tomorrow morning, 0900. Experts now claiming strands of hair hold the key to this case. Why? As grandparents Cindy and George Anthony insist there must have been another dead body in the car trunk? Where is 3-year-old Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information that we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that -- you know, that she was in the trunk of that car and that she`s dead certainly is information we take very seriously.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sheriff`s office searching for 3-year-old Florida girl Caylee Anthony drops a bombshell in the investigation. They say FBI lab evidence confirms human decomposition in mom, Casey Anthony`s, car trunk. And we learn investigators now have additional evidence they are keeping a tight lid on, all of it leaning to what`s looking more and more like a grim outcome in this case, a strong possibility that little Caylee is dead.



CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the search for 3-year-old little Caylee.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the first time, Florida investigators admit missing 3-year-old missing Caylee Anthony is probably dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have scientific evidence back from the lab, the FBI lab, and we have evidence that we have not yet made public that leads our investigators to believe that Caylee is deceased.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI evidence from an abandoned car shows the trunk once held a decomposing body. A police investigator says it was probably the missing girl, last seen in mid-June. Caylee`s mom was rearrested on Friday. She faces new fraud and theft charges. Prosecutors say she has until tomorrow to accept a limited immunity deal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy Anthony is still fuming over her daughter`s rearrest Friday. She refuses to buy into evidence her granddaughter is dead.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots and it stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter! So why don`t you guys get your facts straight!


GRACE: More excuses as forensic evidence now formally indicates there was a decomposing dead body in the trunk of mom, Casey`s, car. So far, those accounts have been based on leaks and sources and reports, but now police coming out and formally announcing forensic evidence states that a dead body was in this woman`s car trunk. Tonight, where is 3-year-old little Caylee? The clock is ticking on an immunity deal offered to mom, Casey. It runs out 0900 tomorrow morning.

Let`s go straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, of course, the bombshell that was released late yesterday, the fact that lead investigator John Allen from the Orange County sheriff`s department saying, yes, their DNA evidence coming back from the FBI lab shows that a body was in the trunk...

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wait! You said DNA evidence? You believe this is DNA evidence? Because the announcement that I have says scientific evidence of human decomposition.

WILLIAMS: Well, we`re all led to believe it was DNA evidence. It could be scientific evidence -- you know, the scientific evidence coming, of course, from the body farm...

GRACE: Body farm, yes.

WILLIAMS: Yes, and of course, the cadaver dogs hitting. But John Allen...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Answer me please, Mark Williams.


GRACE: Do you know something the rest of the world doesn`t know? Do you know that DNA evidence -- deoxyribonucleic acid -- points to a dead body? Because if that`s so, then they can pinpoint the dead body to little Caylee.

WILLIAMS: Well, John Allen, the lead investigator, said yesterday afternoon that they believe that it was little Caylee Anthony`s body in the back of that car.

GRACE: Yes, I know that. But do you know the scientific evidence is DNA and not hair evidence?

WILLIAMS: Well, one of the things they looked at was, of course, the hair evidence. I was going to get to that. But the...

GRACE: Yes, no. Do you know there`s DNA evidence?

WILLIAMS: It`s hair evidence that they have back and that matched...

GRACE: OK, I`m taking that`s a no on the DNA evidence.

WILLIAMS: Take -- do what you need to do on that, but it`s the hair evidence that came back. That`s one of the things. They checked the DNA of that, and they also checked -- obviously, they took samples from the comb and the toothbrush.

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist. Let`s just clear this up right now. Just because you have hair does not mean you`ve got DNA.

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I agree. That`s a correct statement.

GRACE: OK. Back to you, Mark Williams. Give me the latest.

WILLIAMS: OK. You know, lead investigator John Allen said there was a body in the back of the car, more than likely it was Caylee`s. And so they think that -- they presume that Caylee is now dead.

Of course, one of the things that they`re doing is they have a search team in from Texas called Equusearch. They have beat the bushes all day today. They also beat the bushes yesterday, even using a sheriff`s department helicopter with infrared devices on it, ATVs they had on the ground, ground-penetrating radar. They have not been able to come up with anything. And one of the areas they searched was a wooded area near the Amscot (ph) store near where Caylee -- Casey left her abandoned car.

GRACE: You know, I want to go to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, Mark Williams just said something that I find very probative. It means something. It proves something to me. The fact that we are now seeing formal searches, overhead searches by helicopters with radar by police -- so far, we`ve seen some volunteer searches. We`ve seen some blogger searches. We`ve seen a couple of cadaver dog searches. But they are out now with radar helicopters. They`re searching ground. What does that say to you, Drew?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, I mean, it`s hard to say what they`re thinking inside, but I think it`s important to note the places that they are searching. Again, one of the areas they`re searching is that area out by the airport. If you remember back, there was a lot of talk about the cell phone pings from Casey`s cell phone that took place in that area around July 17, 18, a time which is an important time in this case.

They also searched another place known as Moss (ph) Park, which is also close to the Anthonys` home. The third place that they searched is also important because it was near the Amscot where Casey actually abandoned her car, and it was found, of course, with this evidence inside of it.

One more thing, if I could just hit on what he was talking about, the DNA evidence and the discrepancy of what they found -- what they`ve said is hat they`ve gathered all this information, the hair, the DNA, the body farm, and it`s come back and it`s led them to believe that Caylee is dead. They`re not exactly giving specifics of what piece of evidence it was that made them believe that she`s dead. They`re basically saying the entirety of the evidence they`ve collected, as well as the testimony from her and her friends and just -- everything they`ve gathered in this case leads them to believe that Caylee is dead.

GRACE: Joining me, Mark Williams and Drew Petrimoulx, both from Orlando, Florida.

Everyone, we are taking your calls live.

I want to go out to the bounty hunter that made headlines when he got this woman, mom, Casey, a bond and got her out of jail. He swore to me up and down that he thought he could get this woman to talk to him and help find little Caylee. He was convinced at that juncture the little girl was alive. Joining me tonight, Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, helped get Casey Anthony out of jail. Mr. Padilla, thank you for being with us tonight. Why did you come off the bond?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, here`s what happened. That afternoon, Friday, I had a discussion with the attorney, he says -- because I had said the day before that the security was terrible around the house, we couldn`t control it, too many threats, too many people showing up at all hours of the day or night. He said, What does it take to keep her out on bond? I said, You`re going to have to let us do something different.

He says, OK, let`s do this. Let`s move the female that you`ve got in there with her 24/7 out of the house, and you can have your security people move into the house -- not in her room but in a different -- in a different room. And I said, That would be fine. And that way, we get rid of the Reverend, and our security -- we still have perimeter, but the two security people would be inside the house, and hopefully, that would eliminate the target -- the magnet, which was the RV. He didn`t get that done Friday.

The next thing is I see, is the law enforcement people rolling up because there was quite a crowd gathering outside. Cindy hit 911. Law enforcement came. I don`t know what Cindy thought, but obviously, they came with the intention of taking her to jail, which is probably the safest place for her to be right now. The bond at that time in Texas -- excuse me, I`m getting to that.

GRACE: No, no, no, no! No, no! You hold on. I think you came off that bond because you do not believe her. You think the little girl is dead.

PADILLA: Yes, I do.

GRACE: And not one time -- not one time, Mr. Padilla -- did this woman, mom, Casey Anthony, cooperate with you, try to talk to you, help you in the search for little Caylee. Yes or no?

PADILLA: Absolutely correct. You`re absolutely right. She never did lift a finger from the time she got out of jail at all. Nothing. But I didn`t make the call on pulling the bond. The company in Texas did it.

GRACE: Why do you think the little girl is dead?

PADILLA: Well, I think that what happened was subsequent to the 24th and before the 27th, there was some type of an accident.

GRACE: Accident.

PADILLA: I`m old-fashioned. I`m old-fashioned. I believe in Tennessee and I believe in the FBI lab. And I believe...

GRACE: Why do you say there was an accident?

PADILLA: Well, everybody that we`ve talked to, everybody that`s contacted us -- and it`s been dozens of people that knew her -- said that she would not harm her daughter purposely, that it had to be some kind of an accident and that the type of person...

GRACE: Sir...


GRACE: ... you`ve been in this business a very, very long time...

PADILLA: Thirty-three years.

GRACE: ... probably as long as I`ve been in it. So if the camera guy there in the studio with you dropped down dead right now, would you rush and hide his body or would you call 911, Mr. Padilla? Please answer.

PADILLA: I would call 911. But I am not -- I mean, this girl is not -- her faculties aren`t all there. I can tell you that.

GRACE: Well, to Bethany Marshal, psychoanalyst and author, just because somebody is a pathological liar, does that mean they`re insane?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: No. I mean, what it really points to is that they have a severe personality disorder. I mean, think about our prison system. Our prison system is basically a warehouse for people with personality disorders. And I`m going to tell you...

GRACE: No, Bethany, our prison system is a warehouse for died-in-the- wool felons that prey on innocent people that are weaker or less cunning than they, such as 3-year-old Caylee Anthony!

MARSHALL: Well, and not only that, Nancy, but when a child under the age of 5 is a victim of homicide, in a third of the cases, it`s the dad. In a third of the cases, it`s the mom. And the mode of death is usually suffocation, strangulation or blunt force trauma with a weapon of opportunity because the parent gets out of control and hits the child.

GRACE: Liz, let me see the photo of little Caylee in her little swimsuit. Today we learn police formally announcing that there is scientific evidence of human decomposition in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car. They state, quote, "This lab evidence, along with additional evidence that has not been made public" -- there`s the photo that breaks my heart every time I look at it. Please take down the Chyrons. I want to see it in full. This little girl that everybody has been looking for, police now say that they believe she is dead. It`s not from a source of a source of a source. Police are formally announcing that.

While mom, Casey Anthony, has been put behind bars for what? For cleaning out a friend`s checking account, a friend that loaned her a car. She gets their checks apparently out of the glove compartment and goes and writes checks to Target, the grocery store, for cash, you name it.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Alex Sanchez, Meg Strickler (ph). We are taking your calls live.

Out to Alheli in Canada. Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. I know you`ve been very good about defending the parents. I have no sympathy for them. They are woefully ignorant of the facts, and I can`t even believe they continue to defend their daughter.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you something, Alheli. I know from firsthand experience the suffering that people, victims` families, go through after a murder. And I understand where you`re coming from.

In fact, just today, Mark Williams, we hear more excuses. Now that we know that there has been a dead body in Casey Anthony`s car trunk, they say, Oh, well, somebody must have put another dead body in my daughter`s car trunk.

WILLIAMS: And that goes along with the pizza theory, that there was a pizza back there for 12 to 15 days and it had maggots on it and sweltered in the Florida sunshine, plus cleaning fluid back there. You know, my head just shakes every time when Cindy Anthony comes out and talks to the media or talks to the protesters, saying that Caylee is still alive and well.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.


CINDY ANTHONY: ... Caylee is missing and continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you deal with what they`re saying about in the trunk of the car?

CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots that stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever see bruises on Caylee?

CINDY ANTHONY: I have a bruise. Am I abused?


CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) a month ago, that my daughter`s been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter may have some mistruths out there, or half-truths, but she is not a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy, did you want to say anything about the new developments?

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s no new developments.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, they`re saying now that Caylee is dead.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, they`re not. Why do you think they came and talked to me yesterday? Get the (DELETED) off my property.

I`m not blindsided. They`ve been doing this from day one, guys. You guys have fed right into their hands. Let`s just find Caylee.


GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Alex Sanchez, New York, Meg Strickler, Atlanta. Alex Sanchez, immunity deal ends 0900 tomorrow morning. Will they take it?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I`d have to know exactly what is in that immunity deal. What does it mean? Does it mean if she gives information about the whereabouts of Caylee dead or alive, they`re not going to prosecute her? I have not seen a written immunity...

GRACE: No, it`s a limited immunity deal -- I`ve got it right here in my hands -- where if she offers to help find the body, Meg Strickler, what she tells them in that narrow instance will not be used against her.

MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and I agree it`s not going to really help at this point. I think it might even be off the table with the new information that`s been given to...

GRACE: Well, can either one of you give me a straight answer? Alex, will she take the deal or not?

SANCHEZ: No, she will not take the deal because...


SANCHEZ: ... if she says anything...

STRICKLER: No, I don`t think...

SANCHEZ: ... it`s going to hurt her later on.

STRICKLER: ... she`ll take it, either.



GEORGE ANTHONY: One good thing is, I`m going to a benefit today. Does anybody want to know -- on Clairmont (ph) and Winter Garden (ph) (INAUDIBLE) my granddaughter and also some other missing children. That`s the stuff that should be out there, instead of this other sensational that you guys are putting out. You guys don`t know. The person that was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter! So why don`t you guys get your facts straight!


GEORGE ANTHONY: And the next time, I will toss you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not here to cause a problem, George.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You`re on my property. This is my property. This is my property.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not causing problems for you.


GRACE: OK, let`s take a look at what the grandfather said, Mark Williams, The person in the back of the trunk was not my granddaughter. Is there any other logical explanation?

WILLIAMS: None whatsoever, according to the scientific evidence that`s been brought forward, according to lead investigator John Allen, according to the cadaver dogs that hit on Casey`s car, as well as in the back yard of the Anthony household, and of course, the sniff test which came back from the University of Tennessee.

GRACE: I want to go back to bounty hunter Leonard Padilla joining us out of Sacramento, California. Mr. Padilla, what was it like inside the Anthony home?

PADILLA: Well, after she got out of jail, I was only in there one time. And basically, I was sitting there talking to her mother, and one of my associates was there. And she started in with the Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez thing, and I told her I didn`t want to hear that. I said, If you want to discuss something with me, tell me the truth. I don`t want to hear that. It`s bunk. It`s...

GRACE: OK. So you were straight with them. Everybody, with me, Leonard Padilla. We are taking your calls.

A quick break. And as we go to break, while I was gone last week, I met with the aunt of a 19-year-old girl who went missing. Here is Barbara McNair (ph). There she is with little Lucy, my little Lucy. She`s still desperately looking for answers in the search for who killed 19-year-old Pam Kinney, Apalachicola, Florida. She vanished 2005, last seen near Apalachicola. Three weeks later, her body discovered in a heavily wooded area. Take a look. This case is still unsolved, a $10,000 reward. If you have info, please, please help us. Call Franklin County police, 850-670- 8500.



CINDY ANTHONY: We need to start looking outside of Orange County. We need to start looking for a little girl that`s walking and breathing, that someone actually has her.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Back to bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. In that home, you sat down to try to get some facts about where is Caylee, and they started up with the whole, I left her with the nanny thing?

PADILLA: That`s right. And I certainly didn`t want to listen to that because I had read the police reports, I`d heard other people talk about it. And I figured that we had gotten her out. I`d traveled -- I told her, I traveled 3,000 miles, and you`re going to start with this? I`m not going to deal with it. And she says, Get out of my house.

GRACE: Wait. Who is this talking, Casey or Cindy?


GRACE: She said, Get out of my house?

PADILLA: Yes. So I got up...

GRACE: From what I understand, it`s her parents` house and she`s been freeloading off them for 23 years.

PADILLA: Right. At one time, she was telling a lot of people, including her friend, Amy (ph), the one she stole the money from, that the parents were going to sign the house over to her. And she had a lot of people kind of on that kind of a schtick, you know, for a while there, until they actually talked to the parents. And the parents said, No, we`re not going to do that. We never even talked about doing that.



LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED BAIL CASEY ANTHONY OUR OF JAIL: I`m going to put her back in jail. Getting out of jail is the big thing. I can take her back to jail. I can`t change my mind? She said if she got out she wanted to go find her daughter.

Not a word, not a word. She`s sitting there at home. She hasn`t uttered one word and she says here`s who has the baby. She didn`t say a word to me. She didn`t say a word to her mother or her dad.

What, I can`t change my mind?

I believe the baby is alive. The little girl is deceased. I believe she passed it off to one of her friends. I don`t believe that somebody else put a body in the car. Once, I changed my mind once. I`m still hoping that the little girl is alive.

I don`t think she`s alive anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you still estimate it will take you a week to get her back?

PADILLA: A week from today.

The little girl is deceased. I don`t think the little baby is dead. I`ve changed my mind 180 degrees.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Mr. Padilla agreed not to surrender the bond. He`s going to stick to her his word he gave to me.

PADILLA: I never gay gave you a word that I broke. Bail can pulled any time. Practicing to run for president with all the flip-flops.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: In the last 72 hours, bounty hunter Leonard Padilla has come off of that bond, this after meeting with mom Casey Anthony and other forensic tests coming in. He has decided the little girl in his mind is no longer with us. Now she is back behind bars. No bond to the rescue the way it was last time.

Mr. Padilla, in addition to the forensic evidence that has just been released, was her attitude, the way she treated you, your personal observation of her sitting there in her home with her, did that in any way affect your decision the little girl is no longer alive?

PADILLA: Well, I`ll tell you one thing. The biggest effect came from Wednesday, from the Tennessee tests and.


PADILLA: . the DNA from the FBI -- or the information from the FBI.

GRACE: Does she seem -- I mean, you have been sitting with her there in the kitchen of her home. Does she seem remorseful? Does she seem anxious? Was she crying? Was she talking about the search for Caylee? How can we find my little girl? Anything.

PADILLA: Never, ever once. I only sat there in the kitchen or in the room with her one time but I saw her when she was being transported to and from her attorney`s office, going in, coming out. I`ve sat in the attorney`s office on a couple of occasions. Not one tear ever.

GRACE: What was her demeanor?

PADILLA: Like nothing had ever happened.

GRACE: You know, Sanchez, Strickler, don`t start up about how people grieve in different ways, all right? Don`t even crank up that same sad, sorry song, all right?

So, Sanchez, what do you make of the fact that she shows no emotion, no -- nothing about the search for her daughter?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know what to make of that. But one thing I do know. I think this family seriously regrets ever getting involved with Mr. Padilla, because Mr. Padilla essentially acted like a spy.

GRACE: You know what? That`s not what I asked you.

Meg, want to answer the question?

SANCHEZ: You know why she`s not showing remorse, I don`t know. I have not spoken to her.

GRACE: Meg Strickler, do you want to answer the question?

MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I hate to say it but I would say she`s in shock. I know that`s not grief but all this thing.


STRICKLER: . has never -- has been in front of the media before.

GRACE: She`s in shock.


GRACE: Let`s talk about that, Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. We`ve already had one cop thrown off the force for a relationship with her on this investigation.


GRACE: It`s just shock?

MARSHALL: No, it`s not shock. If the person has the capacity to murder a 3-year-old defenseless little child -- and you know how charming 3-year-olds are -- a person like that is not going to be persuaded to feel sorry, to feel remorseful, to crack or to cry, no matter what.

Not if they`re let out in front of an angry mob, not if they`re handcuffed. Not if they`re facing someone in a uniform or moved in and out of the prison system.

I`ll tell you what motivates her, according to Tim Miller. He spent hours in the home and she was on the Internet. That`s what she wants to do -- dance, party, chat with her friend. That`s what motivates her.

GRACE: Right now no charge of murder has been lodged against mom Casey Anthony.

Back to Alex Sanchez and Meg Strickler. This immunity deal -- the immunity deal is a limited immunity deal, which means tell us where she is, we will not use those words against you. But if we get any evidence from, say, her location or her body, that evidence will come in against you.

Is that the way you understand the deal, Alex?

SANCHEZ: That`s the -- if that is the deal, it would be absolutely insane for the attorney to go along with that, because, basically, you`re handing over a prime piece of evidence to the prosecution and they can indict her for murder and then prosecute her.


GRACE: So Meg Strickler, you and Alex, you know, you`re chiming in, exactly, exactly, so you consider her body just a piece of evidence?

STRICKLER: No, I don`t consider it a piece of evidence in that sense. I know she`s a wonderful 3-year-old. I have a 2-year-old little girl and I totally can identify with that. But why would give a limited immunity is like an oxymoron. It doesn`t help us here.

There`s nothing that will help.


STRICKLER: . the defense attorney here in accepting this immunity deal.

GRACE: So no.


GRACE: No immunity deal.

Out to the lines Bonnie in Canada. Hi, Bonnie.

BONNIE, CANADIAN RESIDENT: Hi, welcome back, Nancy Grace.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?

BONNIE: Will the FBI be investigating Casey`s communication on the phone and on the computer since she was out until the time she returns back to jail?

GRACE: You mean were the lines tapped?

BONNIE: Yes. Or will they -- or will they -- I don`t know the legal term.

GRACE: You`re talking about can it become a federal case because wire, telephone or computer was used and possible transactions about this case.

Drew Petrimoulx, joining us tonight from WDBO, any suggestion that there has been a tap on the lines?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: No. I mean, obviously, that`s something that a lot of times in these type of investigations that investigators want to keep to themselves just, you know, for the integrity of the investigation.

We do know that the visits between her parents and her that were taking place at the jail were videotaped and those have been handed over to investigators and those haven`t been released to the public.

So that`s some information as to those conversations that we don`t know actually took place.

GRACE: To Alex Sanchez, if they`ve got probable cause, they can even have a bug, a wire inside the Anthony home.

SANCHEZ: They could. They`d have to go to a judge and they`d have to ask the judge to grant them permission to put a bug for a specific period of time. And then after that specific period of time is over, they have to remove the bug.

So, yes, they could possibly get a bug in this case.

GRACE: And Meg Strickler, they`ve been in the home plenty of times?

STRICKLER: True. They could have searched through the house and looked for evidence in this case. And it sounds to me that they have not been able to find very much evidence at all.

GRACE: I`m talking about a bug, Meg.


GRACE: They have plenty of opportunity to plant a bug..

STRICKLER: Absolutely.

GRACE: . if they want to catch her talking. I want to go out.

STRICKLER: They clearly haven`t found anything.

GRACE: We don`t know that yet. We don`t know what they found or what they overheard if there was a tap.

To Tim Miller, head of Texas Equusearch, searching for Caylee. He`s joining us tonight from Orlando, Florida.

Tim, it`s great to see you again, friend.


GRACE: Tim, why did you pick these specific areas to search? What evidence do you have? What do you know that led you to these places to search?

MILLER: I didn`t pick these three areas. These are areas that law enforcement wanted us to search. These are areas they want us to search thoroughly. They want us to search them two or three times. And they want these areas cleared before we move on to other areas. And these are huge areas. And.

GRACE: Tell me in a nutshell, Tim, where the areas were police wanted you to search?

MILLER: I think it`s probably been made public that these are areas where cell phone activity was going off the towers.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Sherry in Kentucky. Hi, Sherry.

SHERRY, KENTUCKY RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering, have cadaver dogs ever been taken to the area where Casey`s car was found?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Mark Williams, WNDB Newstalk 1150. Have they?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, one of the things that Equusearch did was search an area near the Amscot parking lot where her car was found. Apparently they used cadaver dogs, but nothing came up in their search today, Nancy.

GRACE: And the reason, I take it, Mark Williams, that they are looking in that area is because her car was there, apparently, ran out of gas. So they`re thinking if she had hidden Caylee somewhere, she couldn`t have gotten very far from that location?

WILLIAMS: So true. And if she ran out of gas she could have taken the body out of the car -- but again, this is pure speculation -- and put it anywhere in a wooded area in that general vicinity.

GRACE: To Scott Haines, sheriff`s office, Santa Rosa County, California, at this juncture, what do you believe police should be doing?

SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICE, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FLORIDA: I think they need to keep putting the pressure on Casey. Obviously, they`re going after these other charges trying to put pressure on her, put pressure on the family.

And I think they`ve done a great job so far and the evidence is coming together and despite the immunity deal, I think they`ll make a case even if she doesn`t want to go through with that.

GRACE: Well, she`s clearly not taking that deal. That was Scott Haines and Dr. Michael Arnall.

Taking your calls when we get back, but at your request, here are some pictures of the twins from this vacation while we were missing you. They were swinging by the sea. In the pool for the very first time, John David and little Lucy. On their way to the pool. She likes to play ball and he likes to control the remote. Here he is. Now, look. He`s starting to crawl.




CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: There`s something wrong. I found daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots, it stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: My daughter has been missing for the last 30 days.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: Do you know who has her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her. I`ve tried to contact her.

You know I would not let anyone happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was this wouldn`t be going on.

CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter may have mistruths out there or half truths but she is not a murder.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Initial tests on the foul odor in Casey Anthony`s car have come back positive for human decomposition, the first scientific signal that a dead body was in Casey Anthony`s car.

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not dead. No one`s found her yet. There are certain things that the family can`t say. There are certain things that we do know, there are certain things that Casey knows that she can`t tell.


GRACE: Literally just hours left on a limited immunity deal offered to Casey Anthony. And, you know, I don`t know about this lawyer Jose Baez. I got a handful of e-mails and letters the state has been sending him.

Do you want the limited immunity deal? Can you call us back? Did you get my last e-mail? Hey, Baez, don`t spit into the wind. You`ve got the state trying to contact you. At least send an e-mail.

Also, this as we learn that apparently Casey Anthony deleted almost 200 photos of little Caylee.

To you, Scott Haines, joining us from Pensacola, Florida, is that circumstantial behavioral evidence? What does that say to you that she -- got rid of forever all of these photos of her little girl just before she went missing?

HAINES: Well, obviously, that`s not normal behavior for a parent to delete pictures of your 3-year-old child who is missing. You`d want as many pictures as you can. That makes absolutely no sense.

When it comes to computer forensics, all those can be recovered, as well as the times they were deleted. And that`s one more piece of evidence that the investigators have.

GRACE: Bethany.

HAINES: And on top of that.

GRACE: Go ahead.

HAINES: No, I was just going to say, every time this comes up with Casey wearing this shirt, "Have you seen me?" it just makes me nauseous to see her wearing that. Just -- it`s just another slap in the face.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Bethany -- in a nutshell, Dr. Bethany -- don`t throw a lot of psychoanalysis on me here -- deleting the photos.

MARSHALL: Well, what comes to mind is that one of the reasons parents murder their children is that they want the children out of the way so they can have the life they want. They think the child is a bother. And so when you delete the pictures, you`re deleting the child. You`re deleting the memory of them just like when you murder a child you delete the child.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensics pathologist, an expert in his field, joining us from Denver, Colorado.

Dr. Arnall, I want to talk to you about the hair. Many experts believe the key to this case is in the hair found in the trunk. We`ve got a lot of other evidence that they`re not releasing, a lot of -- other evidence we know about. But I have long maintained this hair could be the key to the case.

Explain to me how you can look at a human hair and determine whether it was shed pre or postmortem.

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The FBI has a publication on the Internet indicating that when a hair is shed from a decomposing body, there is a dark band, a dark coloration on the hair itself.

So when they examine that hair under the microscope, if they see that dark decomposition band, they`re going to conclude that this particular hair was shed from a decomposing body.

GRACE: So that`s the only way the dark ring can appear on the hair, Dr. Arnall, is after death?

ARNALL: That`s the only way that I know of.

GRACE: OK. And, Doctor, certainly you would know. You`re a forensic pathologist.

Dr. Arnall, explain to me in the most simple terms, how can a hair be confused as to identity, that the hair may be Casey`s or it may be Caylee`s?

ARNALL: They`re going to compare the length of the hair they found in the trunk as well as its shape and its coloration to pictures of Caylee and Caylee`s mother that were taken as close to the time of disappearance as is possible.

GRACE: What about DNA? What about DNA?

ARNALL: Well, the gold standard is going to be those little cells in the hair follicle. If the hair follicle is present.

GRACE: The root?

ARNALL: The hair root, that DNA will be a gold standard and that rule out.

GRACE: OK. What if we don`t have the root?


GRACE: Can you get mitochondrial DNA if there`s no root?

ARNALL: They can. Remember, these hairs are from -- are said to be from a decomposing body.

GRACE: Right.

ARNALL: And the hairs that fall out of a decomposing body fall out very easily and likely contain some cells. Now, whether the cells are so decomposed that it makes recovery of DNA impossible, we`ll wait to see.

GRACE: Well, wait it -- whoa, whoa, whoa. We`re missing the forest for the trees, Doctor. If we know the hair is from a dead body and we know the hair is either Caylee or Casey`s, then it`s got to be Caylee`s. Casey`s alive and with us.

ARNALL: That is correct.

GRACE: Out to the liens.

ARNALL: By process of exclusion, that`s easy.

GRACE: To Donna in Kansas, hi, Donna.

DONNA, KANSAS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. It`s good to see you back.

GRACE: Thank you. It`s good to be back.

What`s your question, dear?

DONNA: That swamp area out by the airport.


DONNA: Has anybody searched that?

GRACE: To Tim Miller with Texas Equusearch, I believe that area has been searched. Yes, no, Tim?

MILLER: Partially. We`ve had so much rain down here, we cannot any way possible search everything that needs to be searched until this water goes down. So we could have went right by Caylee and missed her until the water goes down so it`s going to be a long search. We are going to bring her home, though.



BAEZ: I`ve spoken to top DNA experts across the country and they tell me, DNA is DNA. You can`t tell whether the person is alive or dead.


GRACE: Well, according to our expert tonight, Dr. Michael Arnall, you can tell whether the donor of hair samples was dead or alive.

Back out to the lines, Jennifer in Kansas, hi, Jennifer.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

JENNIFER: How long had Casey been moved out of the house before Caylee turned up missing, and if they think that that was all part of her plan to move out of the house?

GRACE: Interesting.

Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: She had been out of the house and dating a lot of people from -- during the springtime.

GRACE: Boy, that`s putting perfume on a pig. And let me tell you, believe me, I`m not throwing the stones. No pot is calling a kettle black here.

But when you`re talking about during a murder investigation, the timeline is very important. She hasn`t officially moved out at the time she was missing -- Caylee was missing. She -- I thought she was just on a hiatus.

WILLIAMS: She was kind of living in and out with Tony Lazzaro, if you recall at one pointing, during June, during late May, early June.

GRACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: And that`s -- that`s pretty much it until she went on her hiatus for 30 days looking for her child.

GRACE: Everyone, the clock ticking down. That immunity deal set to expire in just a couple of hours.

Let`s stop and remember Army Major Stuart Wolfer, 36, Coral Springs, Florida, killed Iraq on a second tour. Also served Kuwait. Supported by a brand new Boy Scout organization in Iraq.

Devoted to his faith. A graduate of Washington University and Loyola Law School. Leaves behind parents, Leonard and Ester, one sister, widow, Lee Anne, and three little girls.

Stuart Wolfer, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friends.