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Nancy Grace

Missing Toddler`s Mother Reportedly Turns Down Immunity Offer

Aired September 02, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 11 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. The deadline comes and goes, mom, Casey, turning down an immunity deal in the search for her own little girl. Translation, what she knows, she`s not telling.

Now we learn even more criminal charges expected against mom, Casey. And tonight, just released, recent 911 calls from the Anthonys to police. Grandmother, Cindy, shows up on national TV insisting Caylee is still alive and attacking police, claiming they are doing nothing to find the little girl. She claims forensic evidence pointing to Caylee`s death is out of context.

And tonight, mom, Casey, back behind bars for cleaning out a so-called friend`s checking account. This as investigators go on the record, confirming there is forensic evidence of human decomposition in mom, Casey`s, car trunk, and all indicators are it was 3-year-old Caylee. Mom, Casey, digging in her heels tonight, still offering not a single clue as to the little girl`s whereabouts as volunteer searches go on yet another day today. Where is 3-year-old Caylee?


911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s the emergency?

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I have protesters on my -- they`re knocking on my front door. They`re trying to come in. They`re breaking my door.

911 OPERATOR: You want to meet with a deputy?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, ma`am. I need someone here to get these people off. They`re knocking on my front door.

911 OPERATOR: How many people? Approximately how many?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I have five people right now.

911 OPERATOR: Did you see any weapons with them?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Ma`am, I have no idea. I haven`t opened up the door because they`re trying to break in through our door, ma`am.

911 OPERATOR: OK. We`re sending someone out there as soon as we can.


911 OPERATOR: You`re welcome. Bye-bye.



CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: She`s not dead! No one`s found her yet.



CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you asked your daughter, Where`s Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And where is she?

CINDY ANTHONY: She doesn`t know.


CINDY ANTHONY: Because someone took her.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The desperate search for 3-year-old Florida girl Caylee Anthony.


911 OPERATOR: 911. What is your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY: I have about 50-plus protesters outside my house. They`re all on my property. I have "No trespassing" signs on. This is Cindy Anthony calling.


CINDY ANTHONY: They`re all out there screaming "Murderer" and stuff. And I have people trying to come into my house and they`re disrupting them, and I don`t want a riot to start outside my home. So if someone could send a deputy by, I would appreciate it.

911 OPERATOR: All right. We`ll get someone out there as soon as we can.

CINDY ANTHONY: All right. Thank you. I don`t think they even have a permit for their protest.


CINDY ANTHONY: All right. Thank you. Bye-bye.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you called in and says, It smelled like there`s a dead body in my daughter`s car, why did you say that for? Because you know there was a dead body there!


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re a liar! Why did you say it, then? Why did you say it!


GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the big story today, of course, Nancy, was the deal for limited immunity that expired at 9:00 o`clock this morning, basically, the opening of business at the county attorney`s office, and she did not take it, nor did her attorney, Jose Baez, take advantage of that.

And of course, as you know, Nancy, that the deal would have been if she would have talked about where she may have placed Casey`s (SIC) body or given the whereabouts of Caylee`s body, she would not have been prosecuted but they could have used any evidence gathered to use that against her in the investigation, and of course, any subsequent trial. That is the big thing that happened today. No movement there whatsoever. So she still remains in the Orange County jail.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Back to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. We just played a portion of a 911 call where the Anthonys are calling police regarding protesters there in their front yard. Now, we have heard intimations by the Anthonys, police are doing nothing to help them. Didn`t police show up in regard to that 911 call?

WILLIAMS: Four cruisers showed up that night. Several of them were unmarked cruisers. Most of them were marked. But they showed up. And that was before the arrest of Casey Anthony later that evening.

The deal is, the protesters showed up. It was an Internet sort of deal that they all got together on the Internet and they showed up Friday night. I don`t know if you need a permit to assemble there because it is on public property. There were about 50 protesters. Everything was fine. They -- the police presence, of course, kind of quieted things down, but it could have become really ugly.

GRACE: What exactly are they protesting, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, they`re protesting Casey Anthony herself. They were holding signs accusing Casey of being literally a baby killer, and that`s kind of what they`re thinking of. They think that Casey Anthony should come to trial, she should be convicted. But let`s just put it in context. A, the biggest thing is she is innocent until proven guilty. She has not been proven guilty yet.

GRACE: You know, Mark, I appreciate that tutorial on the law, but I was simply trying to find out what the drift is of the protesters out in the front yard. They are becoming increasingly angry. Also grandmother, Cindy Anthony, has shown up on national TV claiming that police are doing nothing to help find Caylee. Take a listen.


CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee is with someone that Casey had trusted. And I believe that Casey had been just, you know, betrayed. And you know, it`s unfortunate that it`s going to take the average citizen to bring Caylee back home to me alive and not the authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information that we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that -- you know, that she was in the trunk of that car, and that she`s dead, certainly is information we take very seriously.

CINDY ANTHONY: My reaction is that John Allen is speaking out of context. And if you would have had Commander Irwin`s (ph) interview later on in the day, he also stated that they`re following up evidence in their investigation that Caylee may be alive. And I believe that because I`m still getting phone calls of people that have seen Caylee, and they`re frustrated because the authorities aren`t investigating.

Equusearch wants to know why thousands of people aren`t out helping them look in the woods. I`m getting phone calls from people saying why they`re not out looking in the woods, because they don`t believe Caylee is out there. They believe Caylee is alive and that Caylee is with somebody. So that`s my reassurance.


GRACE: You are seeing grandmother, Cindy Anthony, on NBC`s "Today" show. She is adamant that 3-year-old little Caylee is still alive. She claims that all of the statements police have made regarding the forensic testing indicating a decomposed body in mom, Casey`s, car trunk had been simply taken out of context.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Shirley in Florida. Hi, Shirley.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`ve been trying to call for a month. My question is, with all the partying that Casey does, could she have been in a blackout? Could she have left Caylee in the car, in the heat, and she had died and then Casey, going into a blackout, panicking, putting her daughter in the trunk?

GRACE: OK. Let me ask you something. I`ve got Shirley in Florida on the phone with me. Shirley, you mean she`s still in a blackout when she puts the little girl in the car trunk?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, if she`s doing drugs and drinking, she might...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! So a blackout from drugs and drinking. Let`s go straight to the lawyers, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer John Burris joining me from San Francisco. Correct me if I`m wrong, Ray Giudice, but voluntary intoxication or drug use is not a defense.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right. It`s not a defense. However, it might get you into an involuntary homicide charge, as opposed to an intentional homicide charge. The difference is capital punishment versus maybe maximum 20 years.

GRACE: Absolutely incorrect! John Burris, either involuntary alcohol or drug use is a defense or it`s not. You don`t -- you`re not halfway in and halfway out. It is not a defense under the law. It does not negate intent, period, under the law.

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that you`re right about that, but you have to deal with the whole question of, Is this a specific intent crime, premeditated, deliberate? And the answer is -- if it was under the influence of alcohol or drugs, the answer would be no. So it could get you out of a first or even a second degree murder and put you back in manslaughter.

GRACE: No, John. No, John.


GRACE: If that were true -- oh, I`m sure that would be what the two of you would argue. But if that were true...

BURRIS: And it would work.

GRACE: ... every person in a jail and a prison today would claim, I was drunk, let me out of here.


GIUDICE: ... if you can prove it, Nancy.

BURRIS: It`s not a claim. You`ve got to prove it.

GIUDICE: You`ve got to prove it.

BURRIS: You just can`t say it`s true.

GRACE: OK, and I want to go back...

BURRIS: And if you do prove it -- I think I will say this. Her case is hurt because of the fact that if she did do this under the influence of drugs, the cover-up is always worse and that will bootstrap this case to another level, even though it might not justify she didn`t report it at the time.

GRACE: You know, I think that we could use a shrink right about now. Let`s go to Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author. Dr. Gardere, in a nutshell, when you spot someone -- a dead body or someone in distress -- would your immediate reaction be to put the body into your trunk and go bury it in a swampy area? I don`t think so.

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: The immediate reaction would be to call a police officer, get some help right away. If nothing else, you may panic, but we...

GRACE: Panic? Panic? Panic? Panic and try to save the child, not panic and try to bury the body.

GARDERE: No, no.

GRACE: That is incomprehensible!

GARDERE: That`s correct. Panic in that you would call 911. You may not be able to say exactly what`s going on because you may fall into some sort of an emotional state where you can`t explain yourself. But no, you would not bury the body in that kind of a situation.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Dan in Georgia. Hi, Dan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy. How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just had a question. The fact that her mom already had a dead body -- or pieces of a dead body in her trunk, you know, whether or not it`s Caylee or not, why hasn`t she been charged with driving around with, you know, pieces of a dead body in her trunk, a decaying body?

GRACE: You know, that is an interesting question. Let`s go back out to the lawyers. To John Burris. The forensic tests show that there was a decomposing human in that car trunk. What can authorities do with that?

BURRIS: Well, the only thing they can do is do the DNA and try to determine if they have some way to match up who that body belongs to. But I don`t think just because it`s there, doesn`t mean she did it. If it`s somebody else`s body, well, then, that`s even worse.

GRACE: Let`s just play this out...

BURRIS: You have to take that evidence...


GRACE: Let me look at John Burris, please. Can you put him and Giudice up on the screen? I want to see these faces. Burris, let`s play out your scenario. So there`s somebody else dead in the trunk? Is that what you`re telling me, there`s another dead person?

BURRIS: I`m saying it could be. I mean...


BURRIS: ... obviously, I would think...


BURRIS: ... that you`d have the issue on the child. I mean, I don`t know. If it`s -- the point is...

GRACE: I don`t know.

BURRIS: ... the government has to prove that she has some connection to it.


BURRIS: If it`s the child, it`s probably an easier case for them to prove than if it`s some other person...

GRACE: Right.

BURRIS: ... -because she has control of the child.

GIUDICE: Nancy...

GRACE: Ray, throw me a bone here.

GIUDICE: Well, look...

GRACE: I mean, Burris is drinking the Kool-Aid.

GIUDICE: Well, I mean, the problem is that from the defense standpoint, it`s a total uphill battle and all you`d be looking on the defense is to try to break that linkage and try to argue, Hey, it was some boyfriend that killed the child and threw it in the back of her car, or something to that effect. And obviously, John is looking for great defenses because this is a heck of a problem and a bad case.

GRACE: Well, I got a problem, and I`m going to throw it to Lawrence Kobilinsky. Everyone, renowned forensic scientist joining us out of New York, Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Kobilinsky, it is very clear -- and I have the police statement right here in my hands. They state that forensic evidence shows scientific evidence of human decomposition in the trunk of the defendant`s car. They say lab evidence and additional evidence that has not been made public leads them to believe Caylee is no longer with us. What do they have, Koby (ph)?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, that`s quite an important statement. We haven`t seen any real reports yet. And we have to be sure that the testing is reliable. Now, we know mitochondrial DNA analysis has been shown to be reliable. But on the other hand, the air testing is something that we really need to learn more about. I mean, testing this and indicating absolutely that there`s human decomposition -- that`s a huge leap and could make the difference in this case.

GRACE: They`ve probably gotten that from the hair. We know that for a fact, that the hair is from a dead person.

KOBILINSKY: Well, again, I haven`t seen their physical evidence. But we do know that hair from somebody who was deceased will develop a banding pattern. And under the microscope, it looks like a dark band. It`s actually parallel lines of air sacs, very interesting. And the problem is, is there`s not a lot of research done on this. We really doesn`t know what other conditions might cause such a banding pattern in hair, although what we know now is that, certainly, it does form between 8 hours and 3 days. It gets darker and darker. So there`s a good indication that it comes from decomposition, but a lot of questions.

GRACE: Koby, isn`t it true that defense attorney Jose Baez has contacted you?

KOBILINSKY: That`s true. That`s true.

GRACE: About what?

KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, he`s -- has an uphill battle, as you just heard, and he wants some advisement on forensics. I`m a neutral person. Whether I`m contacted by the defense or prosecution, I`m going to say the same thing. So if I have something important to say, Jose will hear about it.

GRACE: So right now, she`s only charged with child neglect. She`s not charged with murder at this juncture. So why is he asking a renowned forensic scientist like yourself for advice?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I think a good defense attorney is going to look at all the physical evidence, and if there are issues about reliability as to whether the tests have been validated and properly performed, the only resort he has is to come to somebody like me who could give him some advice on that.

GRACE: What was his most grave concern?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I don`t think we really discussed anything in particular. I think it`s the whole case. It certainly looks like a case that the prosecution is going to -- the prosecutor is going to move forward with the claim that the child was murdered and that there`s decomposition. But I think you`ve got to prove that, of course, in a court of law. I`m not a lawyer, but from a scientific perspective, I`d like to be sure that the tests are reliable and validated.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... refusal to talk comes just two days after sheriff`s investigators announced for the first time that forensic evidence from Casey`s car tells them that Caylee is no longer alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These things together lead our investigators to believe that Caylee is most likely deceased.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, did you kill Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And of course silence. She hasn`t uttered one word in the direction of, Let`s go find Caylee, not one word.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A fleet of squad cars pulls up. They cuff Casey Anthony. They put her in a squad car and they zoom away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey was stone-faced, as usual. There was no changed emotion. She didn`t look like she was sad. She didn`t look like she was angry. She just had a very straight face about her.


GRACE: Welcome back. The deadline for the so-called immunity deal for mom, Casey Anthony, has passed. It has come and gone. We are taking your calls live.

Right now, I want to go to special guest, the head of Texas Equusearch, searching for Caylee, out beating the bushes to find the 3- year-old little girl. Tim Miller, thank you for being with us. It`s great to see you. How did the search go today?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: You know what, Nancy? The search went well today, but -- and I don`t watch a lot of media stuff. But right now, you know, it appears as though I probably need to pull off of this search.

GRACE: Why do you say that?

MILLER: Well, the reason I say that -- I don`t watch a lot of media stuff. I just -- like, I come in open-minded. And if Casey, in fact, gave that child to somebody that she trusted, I am very upset that she did not at least get their name and phone number because we`re getting calls from people across America that really want us to look for their child that`s really missing.

GRACE: OK, wait! Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait~! Wait! Why are you considering pulling off the search?

MILLER: Well, I am saying, if Casey got us out here and she gave that child to somebody she trusted and will not give up the name and phone number, and wasting our resources for somebody that really needs us...

GRACE: Do you believe that, Tim? Do you believe that?

MILLER: You know what? I will do anything for this family.

GRACE: Tim? Tim?

MILLER: I`ll do anything for any family. But I`m upset.

GRACE: Tim? Tim, do you believe Caylee is still alive?

MILLER: I am very open-minded. I met with Cindy today. And you know what? We have got people in...

GRACE: I understand she was very angry at you today.


CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not blindsided. They`ve been doing this from day one, guys. You guys have fed right into their hands. Let`s just find Caylee.




CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor. I smelled rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. Air samples don`t mean anything.


GRACE: Straight back out to Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch. Tim, is it true that you are not getting cooperation and are therefore considering pulling out of the search?

MILLER: Well, you know what? If this is true, what is being said right now, that she gave that child to somebody she trusts -- I can`t imagine anybody giving their child to somebody they trust without getting at least a name and phone number.

GRACE: Oh, OK. Hold on.


GRACE: If you could just address -- are you getting cooperation?

MILLER: You know what? I`m not asking for cooperation from that family.

GRACE: Are you getting cooperation?

MILLER: They`re going through a very tough -- I do not ask them for anything. I understand -- remember, Nancy, I lost my own child. And you know what? I did not know...

GRACE: Tim...

MILLER: ... what to do at that time, so...

GRACE: Is it true that you told me point blank you are not getting cooperation from the Anthony family or their lawyers?

MILLER: Well, you know what? But I`m not asking for that. I mean, if they had any information to give, I would hope they`d come forward. And I`d believe them.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you called in and says, it smelled like there`s a dead body in my daughter`s car, what did you say that for? Because you know there was a dead body there.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have evidence that we have not yet made public that leads our investigators to believe that Caylee is deceased.

C. ANTHONY: There`s no new developments. Absolutely, she knows who has her. I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She`s coming home. She`s leading you to a place but she`s not telling you to the right exact location to which apartment it is because she`s afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee.

My daughter may have some mistruths out there or half-truths but she is not a murderer. There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.

C. ANTHONY: The same dog that cleared our house cleared them. There`s no evidence that Casey has ever done any harm to her child. She lived with me for three years. I`ve never seen anything. She is not dead.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Everything she says doesn`t make any sense.

C. ANTHONY: I don`t know. I`m not in Casey`s head. I`m not a psychiatrist. I thought I was here today to discuss Caylee, not to defend my -- what my daughter is doing.


GRACE: Joining us right now is a very special guest, grandmother, Cindy Anthony.

Miss Anthony, thank you for being with us.

C. ANTHONY: Hey, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good. And I want you to know that many of us are continuing to pray and think of you and your husband and Caylee.

I understand you want to respond?

C. ANTHONY: Well, yes. I was listening to Tim Miller. I`d like to answer the question that he kind of didn`t answer for you.


C. ANTHONY: I`m the one that called Tim Miller and actually someone told me about him three or four weeks ago. And I thought all he did was body searches, you know, after, you know, people had been deceased or if you knew a specific area.

And I waited until the urging last week, again, from several people to call him because they said, no, he can do, you know, live searches, too. So Tim came out here with the understanding that, you know, we believe that Caylee is alive and that we wanted him to assist us in looking for her as a live person.

So we have been fully cooperating with him. In fact, I`ve given him many locations, including today, you know, locations in Dallas where we`ve gotten numerous tips verified from FBI today, numerous tips that, you know, have been reaching out since early -- you know, the first week after Caylee was found out she was missing.

In fact, some of them found out on your own show that she was missing and some of them haven`t been followed up. And now they`re being followed up. So I just wanted to, you know, assure you that we have been cooperating with Tim.

Casey was under full instruction not to speak to outside, you know, people, even including the family, so that we weren`t put in any jeopardy of, you know, obstructing justice if she told us something.

So she`s not going to cooperate with anybody other than her attorneys and maybe anybody he appoints on his staff that has confidentiality. So that`s going to kind of clear that up a little bit.

GRACE: Miss Anthony, I know that you want more volunteers to show up to search. Is that correct?

C. ANTHONY: No. Actually, I don`t. I think it`s a waste of time searching in the woods behind, you know -- back by the airport and all that because, you know, I know Caylee is alive.

I`ve gotten many people calling in and saying that they`ve seen Caylee. What I would like people to do is continue to get the word out and continue to look for her. And we`ve got -- I`ve gotten probably over 100 phone calls today from people that are supporting us and that are continuing in that -- those efforts just today alone.

So, you know, I`m not surprised that a lot of people aren`t showing up to search the woods, because a lot of people don`t believe that she`s out in the woods, that she`s buried. They believe that she`s alive and breathing. And that`s what we need to do is look for a little girl that`s out there, you know, maybe at a restaurant or a store or a park or whatever.

And if we continue to, you know, look at evidence that hasn`t been verified like your forensics specialist said, none of this has been verified. You guys are going to put the coffin -- Caylee in a coffin because eventually something is going to happen to her if we don`t find her.

So let`s not look at speculation. Let`s not convict someone before they`ve even been brought up on charges. Let`s look for Caylee because that`s what Tim is supposed to be here for and that`s what my goal is to get everybody out here looking for her.

GRACE: Well, Miss Anthony, I know that there are cases such as Elizabeth Smart.

C. ANTHONY: Absolutely.

GRACE: . such as Shasta Groene, where they have been written off as most likely dead and then a miracle occurs and they are found alive.

C. ANTHONY: Absolutely.

GRACE: However, in those cases, there were -- there was no evidence of a decomposing body in the car trunk.

C. ANTHONY: Well, again, your forensics specialist said none of that has been verified. You know who is leaking that? You know, people are leaking information -- Orange County said last week they don`t leak information.

They`ve been leaking information strategically. They leaked it last Wednesday because they thought Thursday was the deadline for her immunity, when, in fact, the immunity got pushed out until today. And then they pushed it again all this weekend, because they thought that Caylee -- Casey would break.

She`s not going to break when she`s telling them the truth that she does not know where Caylee is at.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know if it`s leaking. But Captain Angelo Nieves of Orange County Sheriff`s Office gave an official public statement stating the FBI provided scientific evidence of human decomposition in the trunk of Casey Anthony.

Point blank -- I just read it.

C. ANTHONY: Hair follicle or whatever, none of that has been verified.

GRACE: From the FBI lab?

C. ANTHONY: We -- you know, your forensics specialist himself said none of that`s been verified.

GRACE: No. No, no.

C. ANTHONY: You know, even that hair samples.

GRACE: He did not say -- he said some of the evidence. He would want to verify before he gave his expert opinion. But the FBI crime lab states point blank that there is scientific evidence of human decomposition in Casey`s car trunk.

C. ANTHONY: I would love to know what it is. Are we talking about urine? I mean, I myself put dirty diapers back there from Caylee until we`ve gotten home and throw them away. You know when the dog hit on Caylee`s play house, I asked them is it because she peed in her play house?

And they said possibly because they didn`t find anything buried under her play house.

GRACE: To Lawrence Kobilinsky, our forensic specialist joining us tonight, is there any way that a dirty diaper or a urine soaked diaper could show up as human decomposition in a test?

Could you please clarify what you said earlier? Maybe I misunderstood you.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: No, no, Nancy. I think a diaper urine would not be mistaken for decomposition. I believe that the kind of air sampling that was done.

GRACE: I`m not talking about the air sampling.

KOBILINSKY: I`m sorry. The hair?

GRACE: I`m talking about the hair, yes.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. Well, you know, if in fact they found hair with a banding pattern and if they can demonstrate that that comes from Caylee, then, you know, they`ve got some very strong physical, although circumstantial evidence.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, you`re one step ahead of me, because this report regarding the FBI crime lab does not state that the decomposing body was Caylee. It simply says, point blank, there is scientific evidence of human decomposition in Casey Anthony`s car trunk.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. Nancy, if they did mitochondrial DNA analysis, that`s not -- that doesn`t give you a unique profile.

GRACE: Do you have a reason to doubt the FBI scientific lab?

KOBILINSKY: Oh, I think they`re a fine laboratory. But even they will admit that the mitochondrial profiles are not unique.

GRACE: Nobody said mitochondrial.


GRACE: I`m just asking you if you have a reason to doubt their veracity.

KOBILINSKY: I don`t know.


KOBILINSKY: I have no reason to believe they would lie, of course not.

GRACE: Let`s go back to Miss Anthony.

Joining us is Caylee`s grandmother, Cindy Anthony. And I want to clarify, she believes the little girl is still alive and she wants help findings her alive.


GRACE: Miss Anthony, now that I have gone back to Lawrence Kobilinsky, what do you think?

C. ANTHONY: Well, here`s my feel. No one`s 100 percent sure of anything, correct? Until they`re 100 percent sure of anything, why the heck are we not looking for Caylee as a live person? That`s my thing.

GRACE: Well, I`ll tell you why. I`ll tell you why. And this is just my lay person`s and trial lawyer`s opinion. And that is, it`s been very clear -- and you`re right. You stated a liar does not a murderer make.

But when you are lying about the whereabouts of your little girl who is missing, that has made the public doubt anything your daughter is saying.

C. ANTHONY: And, again, people are speculating that she`s lying about her whereabouts. Casey states and she`s maintained from day one without flinching that she does not know where Caylee is at.

In fact, one of our tips matches the descriptions of the people that took Caylee.

GRACE: Well, didn`t she tell people all.

C. ANTHONY: And that tip was a month ago.

GRACE: Did she tell all along that Caylee was at the amusement park, that Caylee was with you, that Caylee was at these various places and none of that was true.

C. ANTHONY: No. What she told the sheriff`s department all along was that she was kidnapped by Zenaida and, you know -- and that`s what she`s maintained. She told me, you know, some things during the month of June because she was trying to look for her and tried to get her back herself.

And when that didn`t work, that`s when, you know, she was -- you know, came clean with the other. But, again, the description of the person that she described to the police on July 16th is the same description of that Dallas tip.

GRACE: Miss Anthony.

C. ANTHONY: . and they`re just now following that up and that tip came up a month ago.

GRACE: . who is Zenaida Gonzalez? Every Zenaida Gonzalez police have searched into is not anywhere near what your daughter is saying.

C. ANTHONY: That`s not entirely true. There`s a lot of them that`s out there that we`re still investigating.



GRACE: With us tonight is Caylee`s grandmother, Cindy Anthony. We are taking your calls live.

Back out to Miss Anthony.

Cindy, I understand that you yourself have been looking for Caylee. Where have you been looking and what tips have you turned up?

C. ANTHONY: Well, you know, I actually looked around some, you know, places here locally, ruled out a few places. But mainly what I`m going off of is what people call in to me and then I follow up on them.

Have to follow up on, you know, agencies that are supposed to be following up. I had one the other day that called missing persons in Dallas and the guy said he was waiting for Orange County for the last month to tell him it was OK to follow up on a tip.

So I spend a lot of my time chasing other authorities trying to make sure they follow up on tips people have called in. And I only have about three or four dozen tips called in to me that have already been called in to other authorities.

Orange County said there`s over 1500 tips. What I would like to challenge you guys is why can`t we make those public record so we can all follow up on them, make sure that they have been -- I mean, everything else has been out there, you know, with disclosure.

I mean the first 471 pages is out there. Why can`t we have some of these tips so that the people know where she`s been spotted and then the average person can go follow up and make sure that everybody is doing their job? And that way justice can be served for Caylee.

GRACE: Where -- Cindy, based on the information that you`re getting from tips, where are you looking? Where do you believe Caylee is?

C. ANTHONY: Well, right now, my gut is either she`s in Texas, Mexico or Puerto Rico. I think she`s somewhere down there. A month ago, I would have thought she might have been up around New York. But right now I think she`s somewhere in Texas or even Puerto Rico.

GRACE: Miss Anthony, what do you make of police saying point blank that they believe Caylee is deceased?

C. ANTHONY: Well, you know, when I asked them -- I asked them -- I asked them that last week. And they said -- I asked them, is there still a chance that she`s living and breathing and they said yes. I said, if there`s still a chance she`s living and breathing, then, you know, I want you to -- are you going to continue to follow every tip? And they said absolutely.

So with that in hand, if there`s still a chance that she`s out there living and breathing, all I`m asking is that everybody give Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her. So until they can prove to me 100 percent otherwise, until all the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is, and satisfy in my mind that she`s not out there, I`m not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.

Because if she`s out there and no one`s looking for her and she`s missing us, I`m going to find her. I`m going to find her. And that`s what every good mother.

GRACE: You know.

C. ANTHONY: . or grandmother would want to do.

GRACE: Did you ever get a satisfying explanation as to why Casey did not report her missing immediately?

C. ANTHONY: Yes. She maintains that she was threatened, that Caylee`s life is being threatened. And I think that`s why she`s been very cautious with what she says. And, you know, some people don`t understand that. But I understand it with the people that she`s described to me.

A lot of stuff, you know -- a lot of stuff we can`t release out to the public, but what we can release is where we`re looking. And, you know, ask the detectives why they never did a -- put a description out there of people.

You know, they think that the person doesn`t exist, but they determined that at 12:30 on July the 16th, just a few hours after talking to her, without investigating any of the Zenaidas or anybody else.

And, you know, that`s very sad that this little girl for the whole months of July and almost all of August, you know, didn`t have someone actually going to bat for her.

GRACE: Well, and -- but you cannot discount.

C. ANTHONY: . because they were.

GRACE: But you cannot discount, Mike Brooks, that for a solid month police didn`t even know she was missing because the mom didn`t call her in.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Exactly. And, Nancy, she took police over to the apartment where she supposedly gave Caylee away to this -- the babysitter. But, Nancy, that apartment had been vacant for 142 days.

She also said that she, on July 15th, had received a phone call and talked to Caylee. Cell phone records say no incoming calls at all on that day. You know, it`s just been lie after lie after lie. And if she did give Caylee to someone that she, quote, "trusted," who is this person? She needs to cooperate with police.

That`s the bottom line, Nancy.

GRACE: Miss Anthony, response?

C. ANTHONY: He`s assuming that he knows the stuff. Why don`t he pull her phone record and see how many incoming phone calls she had that day? She`s going to be.

GRACE: Don`t you have the records?

C. ANTHONY: There was five phone calls, incoming phone calls during that time.

GRACE: Well, don`t you have the records, Miss Anthony?

C. ANTHONY: I have them. I see them -- those incoming phone calls.

GRACE: Well, then why don`t you release them?

C. ANTHONY: And you know what, we`re following up on those. Unfortunately we`re following up on those.

GRACE: But why don`t you release them? Show that police are wrong in this sworn affidavit that say those calls didn`t come in. I`ve got the answer...

C. ANTHONY: Well, yes, maybe we do need to start releasing some things. Let`s release some of the tips.

GRACE: I mean.

C. ANTHONY: Let`s release some of the other stuff so people can start looking on their own.

GRACE: Do you really think police.

C. ANTHONY: . to see what they have and haven`t done.

GRACE: . would lie about incoming phone calls?

C. ANTHONY: I`m not saying they`re lying. But the records speak for themselves. I have a copy of the phone records. And in fact some of my -- there are some of my calls to her that don`t even show up on her phone records.


GRACE: With us tonight, bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla. Weigh in.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED GET CASEY ANTHONY OUT OF JAIL: Well, here`s the situation, Nancy. I believe that when the FBI, who`s got one of the finest labs in the world comes back with the DNA it`s going to shock the world over something that Lee, Casey and Cindy have known since Wednesday when they released their preliminary.

GRACE: Which is?

PADILLA: . findings. And also the dumpster, a mile and a quarter down from the boyfriend Tony`s house, is going to play a big part in this.

GRACE: What do you say in response to Miss Anthony?

PADILLA: She`s living in total denial.

GRACE: Everyone, joining us tonight, Cindy Anthony.

Miss Anthony, again, our prayers are with you and your husband and, of course, little Caylee.

Let`s stop and remember Army Colonel Stephen Scott, 54, New Market, Alabama, killed, Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Worked two years at the Pentagon before serving in Iraq where he helped train and equip the Iraqi army.

Devoted to family and fellow soldiers, loved fast cars, motorcycles, to jogging five miles every day. Leaves behind grieving parents, Patricia and Kenneth, sister Kathleen, brother Mark, daughters Rebecca and Rachael.

Stephen Scott, American hero.

Thank you to all of our guests. But our biggest thank you to you for being with us and happy birthday to a Vegas friend of the show, Miyun Clemens fighting valiantly sickle cell anemia. She is more of a hero in her short lifetime so far than many of us will ever be.

Happy birthday, little Miyun.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.