Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

More Police Documents on Caylee Anthony Case Released

Aired September 23, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 14 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. In the last hour, over 600 pages of stunning documents released -- details, interviews, witness statements, hundreds of mom, Casey`s, obsessive text messages -- all from inside the police investigation released. - And in black and white, Casey Anthony spins yet another story, claiming she left her 2-year-old girl willingly with a nanny for a month to go job hunting in Tampa.

And found abandoned in the car, left behind, little Caylee`s favorite baby doll, a doll she refused to go without day or night. And highly probative. When mom, Casey, left home, she took her own things, everything for her, but nothing -- no shoes, no PJs, no clothing, no toys, no dolls -- nothing taken to provide for little Caylee. Why?

We learn mom, Casey`s, plan to party hearty nearly every night, out for expensive manicures, her bizarre obsession with men, and blaming the smell of human decomposition in her car on a dead animal. That`s right, mom, Casey Anthony, acknowledges decomposition in her car and blames a squirrel! All this after little Caylee goes missing.

Investigators confirming forensic evidence of human decomposition and huge amounts of the chemical solution chloroform in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. We learn the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, were terrified to open the car trunk, afraid they`d find their granddaughter dead. Casey Anthony complaining non-stop little Caylee slows down her social life. And she admits she`s an unfit mom. Tonight, where is Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking information revealed inside nearly 600 pages of documents. Casey Anthony`s friend, Amy Huizenga, tells detectives Casey Anthony told her it smelled like something died in Casey`s car. But Anthony eventually went on to say there was definitely a part of an animal plastered to the frame inside the car. According to Amy Huizenga, before George and Cindy Anthony opened Casey`s impounded car, they were terrified that Casey or Caylee would be inside the trunk.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: There was a bag of pizza for what, 12 days, in the back of the car, full of maggots, and it stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was an overpowering smell in the back.

CINDY ANTHONY: there was no odor in the car when it was towed out to the towing company.

No odor. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy Anthony also allegedly told Huizenga that if Caylee didn`t turn up soon, Cindy Anthony would sue for custody of her granddaughter.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody is saying anything bad about you. Your family is with you 100 percent.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: No, they`re not. That`s (DELETED) because I just watched the (DELETED) news and heard everything that my mom said. Nobody in my own family is on my side.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they are. Nobody has said...

CASEY ANTHONY: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now, is getting Caylee back. And you know what? That`s all I care about right now.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee. In the last hours, 600 pages of bombshell documents from inside the police investigation released.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details in the Caylee Anthony case. Florida prosecutors are releasing nearly 600 pages of new documents, including transcripts of interviews, text messages and phone records.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone who was interviewed talks about the smell from that car. Immediately, Casey`s mom, Cindy, thought it smelled like death.



CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was worried that perhaps something had happened to Caylee or Casey. And her friends, before the car was abandoned, they all wondered about the smell. And she explained that it was a dead animal.

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I think my daughter ran over something.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tony Lazarro (ph), the boyfriend that Casey had when all of this was going on, he said that in July, early July, she started having all these nightmares and she would just wake up in these cold sweats. And he would ask her, you know, What`s wrong? What`s this all about? And she would say things like she was worried about their relationship.



911 OPERATOR: What did the person do that you need arrested?

CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter.

911 OPERATOR: For what?

CINDY ANTHONY: For stealing an auto and stealing money.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony, the day when she went over to confront Casey, also told Tony that, Hey, I hope you`re rich because she`s probably going to just, you know, rob you dry here.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does Tony have anything to do with Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, Tony had nothing to do with Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, why do you want to talk to him?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because he`s my boyfriend, and I want to actually try to sit and talk to him because I didn`t get a chance to talk to him earlier, because I got arrested on a (DELETED) whim today, because they`re blaming me for stuff that I never would do, that I didn`t do.


GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Nancy, a bombshell this afternoon, the state attorney`s office here in Orlando releasing 600 pages of documents, those documents including interviews with boyfriends and good friends of Casey Anthony. They shed light and they show the emotion and the stability of that 22-year-old Casey Anthony.

One of the things, of course, the smell coming from the car. She told her friend, Amy Huizenga, that she thought her dad borrowed her car, he ran over a squirrel, and basically, the squirrel died under there, later telling Amy that she found the bodies of the squirrels plastered to the frame.

GRACE: Well, according to neighbor Brittany Schrieber, no one has used that car in about a year-and-a-half other than mom, Casey Anthony.

Everybody, in the last hours, this stack of police documents from inside the police investigation have been released. This stack has been released by the state`s attorney`s office, and it is a bombshell, a treasure trove for prosecutors. It details the fact that mom, Casey Anthony, acknowledges the smell of death in her own car. This isn`t something her grandmother, Cindy Anthony, dreamed up. She herself says it and blames it basically on her father running over a dead animal.

Not only that, Mark Williams, she comes up with a whole new story as to what happened to little Caylee.

WILLIAMS: She does. As a matter of fact, she says she was going to go to Tampa to search for a job for a month and that Caylee was headed of to the baby-sitter. But the big thing is the fact that Cindy Anthony went into her room, found things missing from Casey`s articles that she always had, but there was nothing taken for little Caylee. And if you`re going to go to a baby-sitter, you usually pack a pretty big bag, especially if you`re going to be away for a month, Nancy.

GRACE: To Kathy Belich, joining us tonight, with CNN affiliate WFTV. She`s there in Orlando. Kathy, I find it highly probative, the items found left behind inside mom, Casey`s, car.

KATHY BELICH, WFTV: Yes, apparently, a baby doll that Caylee would go nowhere with (SIC), a carseat. She -- and no indication that there was any plan -- any legitimate plan to leave Caylee in someone`s care.

Also, about the smell of that car. Casey told her brother that that smell first showed up in that car June 5, which was their mother`s birthday. And Lee didn`t believe it because he said she would never drive around in that car for that long with that smell, nor would she put Caylee in that car with that smell. He also said that their father, George, was meticulous about keeping that car clean. So she has told, obviously, numerous stories about that smell, but also that it started back on June 5, which doesn`t seem to make sense, either.

GRACE: Very disturbing, Mark Williams with WNDB, is that the grandparents, when they go to finally get the car, they find out from the towing service, I believe, the car is still sitting there outside an Amscot -- they go to get it, and the stench is so overwhelming -- they don`t have the key to get in. They are terrified, according to these documents, that their granddaughter or daughter was dead in the trunk.

WILLIAMS: That`s correct. And the big thing is, the towing company didn`t have the key, so George and Cindy Anthony went down there and they opened up the trunk, and this odor just came out of the back. And one of the things that the guys at the towing yard said is just a couple of days before, they had to clean up a car that -- and the individual took his life in. So they knew the smell of death, as well. So I mean, that stench is just overpowering.

GRACE: You know, the fact that she basically acknowledges it, number one, the smell of decomposition, blames it on her father running over an animal, leaving the favorite baby doll behind, the doll that little Caylee would go nowhere without -- interesting -- back to you, Kathy Belich -- the fact that when mom, Casey, leaves her home, her -- the grandparents` home, her parents, she takes her belongings but leaves everything belonging to Caylee behind.

BELICH: That`s right. That seems to be an indication she was not planning to take a trip with Caylee anywhere, leaving the important articles, and of course, as we said, Caylee`s favorite baby doll behind. And she told so many different stories about what she was planning to do during that month, this is just one more story that doesn`t make sense.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight in our Manhattan studios, veteran prosecutor Eleanor Dixon. Her specialty, crimes on children. Out of Atlanta, defense attorney Raymond Giudice. Out of New York, high-profile lawyer Richard Herman.

Eleanor, weigh in.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think they probably released these documents to show the evidence that has mounted up against Casey Anthony, as well as to maybe put some pressure on her. At some point, maybe she`ll have to explain these things to the public.


RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let me just say this. I haven`t gone through all 600 pages of alleged bombshells and treasure troves, but 600 pages hasn`t produced a one-page indictment for homicide yet.

GRACE: I don`t know about that. Richard Herman, agree or disagree?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I completely agree with Ray. If they had it, Nancy -- I believe the DNA`s degraded. This 600 pages are meaningless. If they had the DNA, they would have indicted her.

GRACE: So let me get this straight, Herman. The fact that she`s made up another story about voluntarily giving Caylee away for a month to go job-hunting?

HERMAN: That goes to her mental state. That`s going to be the defense, Nancy.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something about a car at Amscot?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What -- what`s up with that?

CASEY ANTHONY: ... ran out of gas. I was driving actually to different places...


CASEY ANTHONY: My car, yes.


CASEY ANTHONY: The car that I bought from my brother three years ago.


CASEY ANTHONY: Sucks because I ran out of gas. My gas gauge is obviously reading wrong. The sensor could be wrong.


CASEY ANTHONY: It showed I had half a tank of gas, but it was empty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did it run out of gas? Was that before or after your baby is missing?

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, it was definitely after.


CASEY ANTHONY: It was definitely after.


GRACE: Six hundred pages from inside the police investigation released. We learn, Mark Williams with WNDB, that after little Caylee goes missing, mom, Casey Anthony, is man-crazy, juggling guys, this obsessive text-messages, hundreds of them, out getting manicures, talking obsessively about partying, where they`re going, My goal tonight, to make out with a boy. Nothing, nothing about Caylee.

WILLIAMS: She was the text message queen!

GRACE: Was that you just laughing? Did I hear that? Was that you in my ear? I don`t find that humorous at all, Mark Williams.

WILLIAMS: Well, I`m just saying that...

GRACE: I think it`s sick!

WILLIAMS: She was the text message queen, Nancy. Come on. Everybody is...

GRACE: I don`t find that humorous at all. In the context of her little girl being either kidnapped or dead, and she`s out getting a manicure? Are you kidding me? Even when I was trying a murder case, I didn`t have time for a manicure, much less thinking my daughter`s dead!

WILLIAMS: Well, that`s the point I`m trying to reach is that she was the text message queen, sending these text messages all around to all of her friends, and again, never brought up Caylee or where she was or mentioned her very, very, very little. Just in one text message, she called herself a sorry, proud mama just because Caylee used the bathroom for the first time. I mean, it`s unbelievable, this girl shows no emotion whatsoever, Nancy.

GRACE: One mention of Caylee in all of that.

We are taking your calls. To Linda in Texas. Hi, Linda.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, is it normal for a person to be arrested as many times as she has and released so many times on the same charge?

GRACE: Well, they are different charges. Out to Natisha Lance. There are many, many different fraud charges. Give it to me in a nutshell, Natisha -- a nutshell.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: There are several different fraud charges that all come from her friend, Amy Huizenga, when she stole that checkbook from Amy when she was out of town. And they are being charged against her at different times, which is what`s causing the arrest and then the release.

GRACE: You know, frankly, Eleanor Dixon, I agree with Linda. I`ve never seen it done this way.

DIXON: Well, it has been done this way, though, Nancy. Think about it. She`s committed these crimes. These are different warrants that are being taken out. She`s being arrested on each warrant. But they`re bondable offenses so that`s why she`s getting out on bond.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Michelle in Michigan. Hi, Michelle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. If she left home for weeks, where did she put the child`s belongings? And the people that she stayed with in the apartment, did they ever see any children`s or child`s belongings, toys, books, jackets, clothes?

GRACE: Interesting question. To Kathy Belich with WFTV. When she was shacking up with all these various men -- and hey, I don`t care about that. She can shack up with whoever she wants to. That`s not a felony. Killing your daughter or aiding in the kidnap or the mistreatment of her is. So what do we know? Did she make any provisions for little Caylee at these various guys` homes?

BELICH: Well, what we read in some of these documents was she used to keep her belongings and possibly some of Caylee`s in some backpacks. She had several bags in the car that her brother, Lee, had gone through the night she sort of resurfaced when that car resurfaced. So she probably just used small bags because they were usually short trips. If she was, you know, gone with Caylee overnight, it was just a one-night thing. She was never really gone from the house more than a day or so until, of course, mid-June.

GRACE: That 30 -- approximately 30-day period. Mark Williams, though it said in this treasure trove of prosecution documents -- 600 pages of police reports released in the last hours. It says in these documents that missing from her bedroom at home were her things, her belongings, her items. All of Caylee`s things were still there. She took nothing to provide for her daughter during this month-long sojourn.

WILLIAMS: Yes, even if she was going to go for a job hunt in Tampa or -- and she was going to drop...

GRACE: Why are you saying that? She wasn`t going for a job hunt in Tampa. She went nowhere but over to her boyfriend`s house!

WILLIAMS: But any time you want to take your daughter with you, and she has this story...

GRACE: Oh, good Lord!

WILLIAMS: ... this is part of her web of lies, Nancy...

GRACE: You should see, for me to take the twins to the park for one hour, I can barely push the stroller, it`s packed with so much stuff -- Cheerios, food, blankets, everything! Nothing was missing from the little girl`s room, Mark, nothing! What does that say to you?

Hold on. I don`t need a crack reporter like you and Kathy. I need a shrink for this one. Clinical psychologist Dr. Patrician Saunders, weigh in.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, when people don`t have attachments to other human beings, then they behave without a conscience. They have no empathy for other people, nor can they stand outside of themselves and see how others see them. Cold, yes. Mentally ill, no. This woman looks more and more like a real sociopath, which is not a mental illness. Richard Herman, you`re wrong.

GRACE: To famed forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky with John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Koby (ph), you still working for the defense on this case?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, let me make something clear because people don`t understand my role. I`m not an advocate. I`m not a defense attorney.

GRACE: Is that yes?

KOBILINSKY: I`m a scientist, and I try to -- my role is to...

GRACE: Want simple yes or no.


GRACE: Thank you. Very quickly, Koby, the slacks belonging to mom, Casey, in the back of that car, would they have held any forensic evidence? They were washed by mom, Cindy Anthony. Would they?

KOBILINSKY: It`s quite possible that there was some trace evidence or biological evidence on the garment. But once the garment is washed, it`s gone.

GRACE: Everybody, we`re taking your calls live.

But very quickly. Important. Investigators have released a new age- progression photo in the search for a little Florida boy, Trenton Duckett. Please take a look. Trenton went missing August 2006, just 2 years old when he was reported missing from his own bedroom, Leesburg (ph), Florida. He`s closer to school age now, if he is still with us. Brown hair, brown eyes. Take a look, please. If you have information, please call toll-free 800-423-TIPS.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His image is out there so frequently as a toddler that we have to change the public`s perception of what he looks like. We know now we`re looking for a 4-year-old boy, not a 2-year-old toddler.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zanny has never worked here. How do you explain that?

CASEY ANTHONY: She has an ID. She has an ID with her name on it. I`ve seen it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just like you have an ID?

CASEY ANTHONY: I do have an ID somewhere at my house. Both of my parents have seen it. Both of my parents...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just like you have an office?

CASEY ANTHONY: ... know that I`ve worked here. I used to have an office.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, just like you have an office?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I don`t have an office now.


GRACE: Six hundred pages of police documents released. We go inside the police investigation and the hunt for 3-year-old little Caylee.

Out to the lines. Patty in Indiana. Hi, Patty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, what do the Anthonys do for income now that all this is going on? Do they go to work every day?

GRACE: What about it, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: Well, what we`re hearing, Nancy, is that George Anthony has gone back to work. He`s working security at nights over at Disney. Cindy Anthony, as we know from before, was on disability leave from her job for a period of time, I guess, until this is resolved.

GRACE: What did she do before she went out on disability?

LANCE: She`s a registered nurse.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Denise in Maryland. Hi, Denise.


GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I`m curious as to whether or not the police and the nightclubs that Casey was known to frequent -- have they checked the videocameras for the parking lot around the time Caylee came up missing, and even prior, to see if possibly she was going out to the trunk of that car, checking on that child?



SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Our purpose in coming here was to do what? Go where?

ANTHONY: I guess there wasn`t a purpose. There wasn`t a purpose whatsoever to come up here.

ALLEN: So we`re wasting time, valuable time we ought to be spending looking for your daughter.

ANTHONY: I`m trying to think of places.


ANTHONY: . where I know she`s been.

ALLEN: You`re not answering my question. Do you want us to help.


ALLEN: . find your daughter?

ANTHONY: I do want you to help.

ALLEN: Well, then you need to help me -- a good starting point would be to answer the questions, OK? If I say you were here because and then you just ignore that, like as if I never asked it, and go off in some other direction, does that answer the question?


ALLEN: OK. All right. Let`s go through this again. We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

ANTHONY: Because I lied. Because I brought you up here. And honestly, I was reaching for.

ALLEN: No, stop right there. I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

ANTHONY: It`s not going to.


ANTHONY: It`s not going to.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls. 600 documents released by police.

Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. You called her the text message queen. The content of many of those texts.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the content, Nancy, of course, was she always complained about working long and difficult hours, not being with her daughter. The other thing is.

GRACE: She didn`t have a job.

WILLIAMS: That`s it.

GRACE: Who was she telling -- I saw where she said she was working 12-hour stretches. Who was she telling that lie to?

WILLIAMS: She was telling that to Amy Huizinga, her best friend at the time. Also, she also apologized for -- since she was working these long hours, she couldn`t party, she was -- you know, her life was just upside down, and she couldn`t wait to find a job to -- to work regular hours, like everybody else does.

GRACE: Instead of her demanding job at Universal.


GRACE: A.k.a., sitting at home on her parents` sofa, texting.

Out to the lines -- hold on. Hold on. I want to go to Kathi Belich with WFTV.

Kathi, how is it that all of these documents were released?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WFTV: Well, actually, this is part of the discovery process, which I`m sure you`re familiar with. The defense has gotten these documents and then they become public record. So that -- that`s why they were released today at some point.

They had to redact all of the personal information and then they were they were public record.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Judy in Georgia. Hi, Judy.

JUDY, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Great show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

JUDY: Has any psychologist or psychiatrist tested her or considered her as a multiple personality disorder?

GRACE: What do we know about that, Kathi?

BELICH: I don`t think that that`s ever come up. I have heard so many different theories. A veteran prosecutor in town uses the word "sociopath," which her mother has used and you`ve used it, some other of your guests have used it.

What I have heard is that kind of personality -- the only time that person -- a person who is a sociopath shows emotion is when it has something to do with them. And if you look at a lot of this information, you know, you might come to that conclusion.

GRACE: To Mark Williams, the question is, has there been a psychological evaluation? It`s my understanding that was part of the conditions of her bond.

WILLIAMS: That was part of the conditions of her bond and home confinement. Those issues in that test -- the results of those tests sent up to the Fifth District Court of Appeals in Daytona Beach, and they were sealed. They have not been released whatsoever, Nancy.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, that initially posted a $500,000 bond to get mom Casey out from behind bars, he -- he has come off that bond.

Mr. Padilla, I want to come back to a question, I believe, it was from Denise in Maryland. What about the theory that she would drug the child with chloroform that could be revealed in videos from these clubs or other places?

I know it`s tenuous, but what about it?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, that`s a very accurate question that she made, a good question, because law enforcement has checked, basically, a lot of the video cameras in -- like in the Target parking lot, and other areas where she was constantly at.

And they`ve also taken -- you know in Florida, you have the little white box where you go through without throwing the quarters in the machines?


PADILLA: That`s -- that also gives you another -- another bread crumb trail as to where she was at certain times by -- by taking that, and unloading the information off of, because it`s all saved in a master computer.

So as far as -- as far as where she was and at what time she was, it`s very accurate. But the most telling thing of those 600 pages that were released today is the fact that she`s already preempting, if somebody smells the car, and she`s doing it as of the 27th.

GRACE: Exactly.

PADILLA: . and she`s preempting that even further back to the 5th of June.

GRACE: Exactly. Exactly. I find the single most probative item in the 600 pages that she acknowledges the smell of decomposition in her own car. And we see the date. We see the date that she starts spinning that story. Agree or disagree?

PADILLA: Absolutely. She`s thinking somebody is going to come by here, because I`m going have to get gas, somebody is going to help me, somebody is going to smell it, I`ve got to come up with a story.

And she comes up with -- I think it`s on the 27th she says, I got a couple squirrels that were killed. At one point she said they were nesting under there and died. And even Lee afterwards, a month later, she says, that the situation had developed as early as June.

So she`s not exactly the psycho queen that everybody wants to make her out. She`s thinking constantly on her feet, like where do I go with this smell? What do I do? Somebody has got to come with a can of gas, what do I do?

GRACE: You know I find it also interesting -- let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Richard Herman, Ray Giudice -- Eleanor, at one juncture, she told people that the baby was at the beach with the nanny and she showed up at Amy Huizinga`s doorstep saying, can you take me to Target so I can buy a gas can?

For what? Isn`t that an odd request?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: It is an odd request. And what do -- I mean did you run out of gas in front of your best friend`s house, why is that going on? That`s a good piece of evidence along the mode. That`s piece of evidence I like for the prosecution, she didn`t take any of the child`s stuff with her from the house.

GRACE: You know, to Richard Herman and Ray Giudice -- I`ll start with you, Richard, when there is not a body in a corpus (INAUDIBLE), when there is not a body in a murder case, cases are still made and proven and convicted.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Nancy. Strong circumstantial evidence will get that conviction. And based on everything we`ve seen so far and the alleged DNA, you know in your heart, you would have indicted her already for murder.

They have not done that. There`s a problem with the police in Orlando. I`m telling you, they don`t have the goods on her yet.

GRACE: Raymond?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let me say that there are rare cases where a murder case is -- conviction is obtained without a body. But even rarer, though.

GRACE: It`s not rare.

GIUDICE: . that there`s no crime scene or no crime weapon. Those three pieces put together is the reason there`s no indictment.

GRACE: That is the good point. And it is not rare, however, for there to be a murder case without a body.

GIUDICE: I completely agree, but not all three.

GRACE: Killer -- well, you just said the exact opposite, so when you make up your mind.

GIUDICE: I`m sorry. What I`m saying is, without a crime scene, without a weapon and without the body, that`s a rare case to be made.

GRACE: Agree.

To Mark Williams, what else did you see within the text messages? I mean, there were hundreds of them, mostly to various men.

WILLIAMS: Yes. And the big thing is, is that, you know, again she just keeps talking about how she has to -- how she has to work all these long hours. Again, she`s not working.

There is nothing in there about Caylee. But one thing that came up in the documentation, in an interview with Tony Lozzaro, the investigators interviewed them -- him, and he said Casey would wake up in the middle of the night in cold sweats, saying that she was having, literally, a nightmare.

So that figures into the equation, as well, Nancy.

GRACE: To Vince Velazquez, homicide detective out of Atlanta, with so many conflicting stories and so many reams of documents, how do you -- how do police, investigators go through and make an accurate and comprehensive time line?

VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO, HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: Nancy, basically talking to all of her friends, cell phone records are going to be critical in this. And I understand that they are polygraphing a lot of these witnesses and friends to ensure they`re not on a wild goose chase.

I want to comment, too, on this squirrel issue with the squirrel under the car. Where is the squirrel? What happened to it? The police took this car. There is no mention of any remains of a dead animal in the car. Where is that at? It`s total ludicrous. It`s just -- it`s just not true.

GRACE: Vince Velasquez with us from the Atlanta jurisdiction.

Everybody, as we go to break, I want to wish a very special and happy birthday -- happy 99th birthday to my Aunt Ella Stokes in Jacksonville, Florida. She never misses a show.

Aunt Ella, at 99, what an inspiration you are to the rest of us. Happy birthday.

And now, at your request, more pictures of the twins. Lucy eating a Cheerio this morning at the park. Refusing their hats.




CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Go back to your statement, you dropped off your -- you dropped off Caylee on June 9th and - - walk me through -- you dropped her off to go to work?

ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

MELICH: OK. Get off of work and go from there.

ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal driving to pick up Caylee like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door, nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service, says that the -- the phone is no longer in service, excuse me.

So I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. And time passed. I didn`t hear from anyone. No one showed up to the house so I went to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone a couple stores -- just regular places that I know Zenaida shops at and she`s taken Caylee before.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live.

Over 600 pages of police investigation. Witness statements, text messages, you name it, released. And they are stunning.

Out to the lines, Mary in Florida. Hi, Mary.

MARY, FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear? Thank you.

MARY: Can the fact that Casey did not bring clothes or toys for Caylee be used as proof of premeditation?

GRACE: Absolutely. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Richard Herman, Ray Giudice.

Herman, you say there`s not enough evidence to show a homicide. That`s your opinion, but that evidence will definitely come into trial when a trial happens.

HERMAN: It`s going to come in, Nancy. But it`s purely circumstantial?


HERMAN: It`s not enough.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa. You can stop right there, because a murder case can be made on circumstantial evidence. I don`t have to have direct evidence. Why do you say purely circumstantial?

HERMAN: Because like..

GRACE: It`s like mud on the bottom of your shoe.

HERMAN: Like Ray Giudice instructed you earlier, that`s just one piece of it. There`s so many other elements that are missing for them to get.

GRACE: Raymond Giudice did not mention anything about circumstantial versus direct evidence. And believe you me, Mr. Herman, I do not need a pack of defense attorneys to instruct me on anything.

Eleanor, will it come into evidence or not?

DIXON: Yes, it will, along with all of the other pieces of evidence, which you can put together like a puzzle to see her guilt.

GRACE: Ray, surely, even you will have to acknowledge that circumstantial evidence can be as powerful, if not more so than direct.

GIUDICE: Of course. In fact, sometimes the jury goes back and they feel so proud of themselves about putting this puzzle together.

GRACE: As they should.

GIUDICE: And a good prosecutor like Eleanor would do that. But the question was, is this evidence for premeditation to turn this into a capital case, and that`s a very different question than what`s been answered. It will come into evidence.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know about you, Ray, but I believe you`re familiar with a little thing called the Internet?

GIUDICE: I understand, Nancy.

GRACE: And the Web searches for chloroform?

GIUDICE: That`s right.

GRACE: And then chloroform found so thick in her car, even the air was saturated.

GIUDICE: And when it`s -- and when chloroform is linked to this little girl`s death or disappearance, it may come into evidence. But that`s not today.

GRACE: Whenever this case goes to trial, I would -- if I were a betting person, put money on the fact, we will hear about chloroform.

Out to the lines, Diane in Texas, hi, Diane.

DIANE, TEXAS RESIDENT: Hi. I appreciate your persistence and all you do for us.

GRACE: Thank you.

DIANE: You`re welcome. Is Casey`s then boyfriend Tony still involved with Casey? I mean he kind of just disappeared, no interviews or comments.

And my second part, when Casey was in jail, she was always asking to talk to Tony. Was he ever approached by investigators to help get information from Casey, like befriend her?

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter from Sacramento, California, what do we know?

PADILLA: Well, I can assure you that the law enforcement requested anybody to -- you know, go somewhat on the sly -- on their behalf, in other words, acting as their agents. I didn`t see it, except one time in those 600 pages, but I can assure you.

GRACE: What one time was that?

PADILLA: It`s when they`re asking one individual there if he possibly could come up with some information for them.

GRACE: And, of course, Eleanor, unless the target is incarcerated, that`s OK. But if you are incarcerated, the state cannot make a civilian a state agent, and then go get information or the target would be subject to Miranda rights every time they spoke.

DIXON: That`s exactly right, Nancy. And it would be entrapment, as well, so you`ve got to be very careful with that. But the way she talks and lies that she tells, she`s going to dig her own grave.

GRACE: You know, Mark, what do you -- Mark Williams, what do you make of all of the text messages about getting their nails done, about where they`re going to party that night? They`re big goal is to make out with a guy? And you put them together with those party pictures, during the time Caylee is missing?

WILLIAMS: Well, what I think of it is a very irresponsible mother. And, of course, the 600 pages that came out today, it shows a pattern where the trial was more -- thought her mother was more of Cindy Anthony, Casey`s mother, than really Casey.

And there was this pull right there, they were really starting to bond big time. And Casey got very jealous over this. And, you know, back in my day when I was dating a lot, we didn`t have text messages, we called somebody on the phone.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, there was an overwhelming tone throughout the pages, the 600 pages, about the anger and jealousy between mom Casey and grandmother Cindy Anthony, and the target seemed to be Caylee.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s not unusual that a child, a baby, is going to be the focus of rivalry, if not hatred, between mother and daughter.

We know that Casey is, to say the least, grossly immature person who is in no way able to be a mother. Cindy was the mom. I don`t think that the jealousy was two ways. I think it was on Casey`s side.


GRACE: Out to the lines, Marie in Michigan. Hi, Marie.

MARIE, MICHIGAN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

MARIE: My question is do we know if she used any other computers besides her laptop and if they were confiscated? And also where is Casey now?

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, what do we know about the computers?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: The only computer that has been confiscated was her personal laptop which she used frequently and Casey right now is in the home right behind me because she`s still on home confinement.

GRACE: To Rachel in Maryland, hi, Rachel.

RACHEL, MARYLAND RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, you`re the best. I watch you every night. You`re the best.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?

RACHEL: I just have a question. If they keep saying that, you know, they don`t need a body in order to.

GRACE: Right.

RACHEL: . put her in jail, then what is the holdup? I`m just wondering what other evidence would be needed if there doesn`t need to be a body.

GRACE: To Lawrence Kobilinsky, what do you believe the holdup is?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I think, as we`ve heard from our defense attorneys, they just don`t have the case, the circle.

GRACE: It`s forensics. Do you think there`s a forensic holdup, Kobe?

KOBILINSKY: I doubt it. I mean there may -- there`s the possible that some of the tests are inconclusive. They need to do other testing, but I tend to think all of that is done, and I think they`re just trying to just close the loop and make sure that they dotted the I`s and crossed the T`s that they have.

GRACE: I think they`re waiting to find remains. That`s what I believe.


GRACE: Everybody let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Jacob Fairbanks, 22, St. Paul, Minnesota, killed, Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the National Defense Service Medal, Iraqi Campaign Medal, is a proud member of the Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe.

Loved American Indian heritage, wrestling, tennis, dreamed of traveling the world. Leaves behind parents Stephen and Janette, widow Dwan and four children.

Jacob Fairbanks, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.