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Nancy Grace

Jennifer Hudson`s Nephew Found Shot to Death

Aired October 27, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner devastated. In an apparent home invasion, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for the safe return of her little 7-year-old nephew, the boy kidnapped from the scene.
In the last hours, a little boy`s body has been positively identified as Hudson`s nephew. We are live in Chicago. As we go to air, police announce no suspects. Hudson jets to Chicago to ID the bodies of her family. Tonight, Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American dreamgirl, American nightmare.


JULIA HUDSON, MOTHER: All I ask, I don`t care who you are, just let my baby go. Please. (INAUDIBLE) He`s 7. Let my son go. Please, that`s all I ask!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can confirm that the body located inside the vehicle was the body of 7-year-old Julian King.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news out of Chicago today, where police have found a child`s body in the back seat of that white SUV. The boy has been missing since the Friday shooting deaths of Hudson`s mother and brother at their South Side home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tragically, the search efforts ended shortly after 7:00 AM this morning. Chicago police responded to a call of a suspicious vehicle parked at 1313 South Kolin. William Balfour in the custody of Illinois Drew Peterson of Corrections for violating conditions of parole and remains a person of interest in this investigation.


GOMEZ: And tonight, breaking news. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 19 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. Stunning FBI lab results are in and they confirm death, human decomposition, in mom Casey`s car, along with extremely high levels of chloroform. The stunning FBI lab results torpedo any possibility that pizza or a dead animal was responsible. The massive search for Caylee gears up. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court tomorrow morning. And still not a single visit to the jailhouse by grandparents George and Cindy Anthony. Tonight, where is Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. A hearing is scheduled hours from now for tot mom Casey Anthony, where a judge is expected to officially charge Anthony with capital murder and six other charges in connection with her daughter`s disappearance.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried about her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. If she was with her family right now, she`d be in the best place. She`s not.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Documents recently released show evidence of human decomposition in Anthony`s car, as well as unusually high levels of chloroform.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says there are hairs in the trunk that do not show signs of decomposition, and a hair consistent with Caylee`s which does, which could indicate Caylee was alive when she was put into the trunk of her mother`s car and died in the trunk. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony remains behind bars on no bond and could face the death penalty. Meanwhile, Texas Equusearch is preparing to return to Orlando, along with bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, to continue the search for little Caylee.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson rocked by violent crime.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The singer and Oscar-winning actress Jennifer Hudson and her family, already mourning the deaths of her mother and brother, now have to come to the grips with the murder of a child. Seven- year-old Julian King has been found in that SUV, found dead.

JULIA HUDSON: I love you. Your mama`s looking for you. I`m not going to stop until you come home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a terribly sad story here. That makes three murders in Jennifer Hudson`s family just in the last three days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Julian was found on the West Side of Chicago. The body was found early this morning around at 8:00 AM. Soon after, a neighbor walking his dog -- the dog started howling at the car. When police got there, they opened the car and found the boy inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven-year-old Julian King has been missing since Friday, when his grandmother, 57-year-old-year-old Darnell Donerson, and uncle, 29-year-old Jason Hudson, were found shot to death in their Englewood (ph) home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was at least one report that whoever killed the mother and brother in that house blasted through the front door, shooting through the front door, and shot them even before this person got inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-seven-year-old William Balfour, the estranged husband of Hudson`s sister, is considered a person of interest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He spent seven years in prison for attempted murder and carjacking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve got two crime scenes. Oftentimes, there`s a lot of evidence left at a crime scene, and I suspect that we`ll have some evidence that will link us to the killer.


GRACE: I don`t understand it. Straight out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by outside the victims` home there in Chicago. They`ve got a vehicle turned casket, and they don`t have a suspect? They can`t tell me whose car it is?

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. And I`m thinking the same thing you are, Nancy. And I`m also thinking if they`ve had this William Balfour in custody for three days now, who was driving that van around, that SUV around that was just discovered in that neighborhood this morning with the boy`s body in back? Who was that, an accomplice, somebody else?

GRACE: Well, OK, here`s the sticking point with that theory. How long had the vehicle been there? The vehicle could have been there since before the stepfather was picked up.

ROESGEN: Except, Nancy, that we talked to a neighbor today who says he lives three blocks away and that car was not there before this morning.

GRACE: And let me clear up, there is no suspect in custody tonight. This is an apparent home invasion. Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson rocked by violent crime. She flies home to Chicago to identify the bodies of her mother and brother. After breaking the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for the safe return of her little 7-year-old nephew, we can now confirm as we go to air a body has been identified as the little boy`s.

Straight out to Lisa Boesky. Dr. Boesky, you know, if -- this screams domestic violence to me because the front door was actually shot. I don`t know the direction yet. But a burglar doesn`t do that. A robber doesn`t do that. Someone enraged does that. Who in their right mind would take it out on a 7-year-old boy?

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, somebody who wants to hurt someone. They took somebody`s most precious possession. That`s what that kidnapping was all about. And to kill him -- her most precious possession. It looks domestic to me, as well. But someone who knows how to use a gun.

GRACE: Back out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by outside the victims` home there in Chicago. Tell me what you know, Susan, about the break-in itself, about the mode of attack.

ROESGEN: Well, as far as we know, Nancy, it was a gun. They have not recovered a gun. We understand that the brother was shot first, then the mother was shot. And there is this report going around that whoever did it shot through the door. But Chicago police would not confirm that today.

And Nancy, that`s another reason why some people say maybe it isn`t domestic. William Balfour lived at this house here behind me, where people have gathered for this kind of impromptu memorial tonight. He lived there until the mother kicked him out about six months ago. So he could have knocked on the door, Nancy. He didn`t have to blast his way in if he intended to shoot people inside.

GRACE: And could you tell me, Susan, what this guy is out on parole for?

ROESGEN: Bad dude, Nancy. He spent seven years in prison for attempted murder and carjacking. And yet he married Julia Hudson, the sister of Jennifer Hudson, in `06, after he got out of the pen. And he said that he has -- apparently, he`s known these girls, all the Hudson family, ever since they were kids.

GRACE: And he has not been named a suspect. He is, however, a person of interest. So he only did seven years on attempted murder? In that jurisdiction, he could have gotten up to 30 years for that.

ROESGEN: You know, Nancy, all I can say is this. He`s a person of interest. The police have had him now for three days. Finally, they had no evidence to keep him, and so they got the Illinois Department of Corrections to get him still in custody on a parole violation. Nancy, that makes me think that they don`t have the goods on this guy.

GRACE: Let`s go to Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender." Kathy, how did this all go down?

KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": As far as the whole incident?

GRACE: Yes, tell me.

CHANEY: OK. As far as we know, Julia Hudson, the sister, was actually the one who went inside the home and discovered her mother and her brother dead. And then that`s when she reported her son and the white Suburban that was registered to her brother missing. There is a gunshot that you can clearly see through the front door. So we -- we`re not sure if William Balfour was the one who did it, if he was seen at the home days before or right after. That is unclear right now. And as Susan said, no weapon has been recovered yet.

GRACE: Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing outside the victims` home. OK, if other family members are there, why did Jennifer Hudson have to go and identify the bodies?

ROESGEN: You know, actually, Nancy, she didn`t. I think that was sort of a misstatement from the Cook County medical examiner`s office. Her sister, Julia, had already identified the bodies. She discovered them, in fact. And it was she who called Jennifer Hudson in Tampa and said, You`ve got to get home here.

GRACE: OK, hold on. I have an Associated Press wire that has just come in that says Jennifer Hudson and six other family members IDed the bodies at the medical examiner`s office via image on video screen. That has just come in.

To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. Is that a new development? You don`t have to go in for them to pull out the body and unzip it, you can actually do it through a video image?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: That`s exactly right. Many modern medical examiners` offices either have closed-circuit TV, or they can view their loved one through a glass window.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president of Klaas Kids Foundation. Why the death of the child? Why?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, Nancy, I suspect that this had something to do with domestic abuse. Obviously, this was not just some random act. And my theory would be that -- that they took the boy, that there was some twinge of consciousness. The little boy was an ID -- would be able to ID the killer. He took him and ultimately decided to destroy him.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think we all still are in a state of shock. You know, it hurts. Can`t do nothing, but it hurts, you know? So we`re together. So we sit and we pray. You know, I don`t know nothing else to do but pray. That`s all I know to do.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a terribly sad story here. That makes three murders in Jennifer Hudson`s family just in the last three days. A woman who is from Chicago, she`s considered a local girl, was working at a Burger King when she first auditioned for "American Idol." Now she`s become a big, big star, of course, but she said that always came home to her family`s home, this place where her mother and brother and sister and the boy all lived.

JENNIFER HUDSON, SINGER/ACTRESS: I`ve always had a positive upbringing and positive people around me, you know? So that definitely helped out. And even when I feel down, I`m still -- like, I don`t want to do this anymore, I can`t do it anymore, my mother was there to say, You know what? This is what you have to do. You have to hold on.


GRACE: "American Idol" turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s life is rocked by crime. She was extremely close to her mother. Now her mother and brother and 7-year-old nephew have been murdered.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Ellen in New York. Hi, Ellen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quick comment. Thank you, and especially Mike Brooks, too, and the rest of your team for everything you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know how you do this night after night.

GRACE: I don`t, either. I don`t, either, I can tell you, especially now that I`ve got the twins.


GRACE: It`s just changed everything. You know, I thought I knew it all about being a crime victim until I had them. And I just can`t imagine what Jennifer Hudson is going through right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t, either. And my question -- I have two quick questions.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One is, is the Suburban that they found her poor nephew in -- was that the car originally reported stolen from the original crime scene? And have they not -- or have tests not come back yet on any gunshot residue that may have been on the ex-brother-in-law?

GRACE: Excellent question. Out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by tonight outside the victims` home there in Chicago. What do we know about the vehicle stolen from the scene?

ROESGEN: Nancy, it was reported stolen right after the bodies were discovered. It was Jason Hudson`s, the brother`s, car. Reported stolen, it was part of the Amber Alert, so the cops were looking for this car everywhere, even across state lines. They brought in the FBI. And then they found it less than 20 miles away from where I`m standing right now. As far as gun residue, that`s part of the investigation. They have not found a gun or guns, according to the police, and they won`t talk about any shell casings or residue or anything like that.

GRACE: Well, let me clarify. Let me ask you this, Susan. So you`re saying the Suburban that was found with the 7-year-old boy dead inside is the vehicle stolen from the scene?

ROESGEN: Absolutely.

GRACE: So that vehicle, Mike Brooks, is not going to give us any indication as to whom the perp is -- who the perp is because it`s a stolen vehicle unless you can get a fingerprint off of it. Let`s clarify also about the gunshot residue. Gunshot residue -- when you fire a weapon, a little bit -- invisible to the naked eye -- gunshot residue comes back on your hand, on your wrist. It can get on your clothing. It can go about two feet, diameter, from the weapon, when the weapon is fired. However, Mike Brooks, you can just wipe your hands on your clothes, much less, you know, wash your hands, and it`s gone.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, you can, for the most part, Nancy. But what they`re going to be able to do -- we don`t know if they have gotten any ballistics at all from inside that vehicle. We do know that the little boy, the little 7-year-old boy, he was shot. So what they`re going to do is they`re going to make a comparison from the evidence they have at the original crime scene at the house, and they`re going to compare that to the evidence that they recovered inside that vehicle.

Now, we don`t know if the little boy was shot inside that vehicle or if he was shot somewhere else and then put into that vehicle. We just don`t know that. So we have at least two crime scenes now, Nancy. But there could be another crime scene somewhere, where he was actually murdered.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Sandy in Canada. Hi, Sandy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Nancy. We love you here.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are a saint. You`re an absolute saint.

GRACE: Well, I do not deserve that, but...


GRACE: ... thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes -- no, you do. I`ve been trying lots. You are. You are a saint. I have a quick question.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or an observation. Is it just me or -- her stardom is wonderful, it`s beautiful, and I think somebody has conspired to -- it`s a money conspiracy thing because of her stardom.

GRACE: So you`re saying that this was for ransom or out of jealousy or they were trying extort money?


GRACE: OK. Let`s take a look at that. Out to the lawyers. Let`s unleash them. We`re taking your calls live. In New York, defense attorney Randy Zelin and veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney Alex Sanchez. Alex Sanchez, impossible. There was no ransom note that we know of. There was no communication to Jennifer Hudson, I want money. Bottom line is, if you want money in exchange for extortion, you don`t go ahead and kill the target right there on the scene and then expect to get money.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I think a lot of suspicion is on this fellow Balfour. But you know, I`m beginning to wonder if this is some type of a gang invasion that has taken out revenge on this family for some still undisclosed reason at this time.

GRACE: But to kill the little boy, Randy Zelin? That`s complete BS. This is not some gang revenge on a mother and a little boy. No.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think what we see here is the problem, which is we don`t really know what happened -- the physical evidence, no statements, no weapon, no motive. And that`s part of the problem of pointing a finger too quickly. Balfour`s biggest problem is he was on parole. He loses all of his rights. He`s got no 5th Amendment privilege. He doesn`t cooperate, he gets locked up and they`re going to let him sit. Alex`s point could be very well taken. We just don`t know.

GRACE: OK, yes, his point was it was some kind of a gang revenge, which is complete BS.

Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by outside the victims` home. What was Balfour`s picked up for? I mean, he`s on parole, but what was his infraction?

ROESGEN: What they`re saying now, Nancy, is because he was not and is not cooperative with the police, and that`s a violation of his parole in this unrelated crime. And you know, Nancy, I`m not so sure the gang stuff is not a possible motive here, or drugs. Who knows now? Really could be - - who knows? This neighborhood where I am tonight with so many people is normally so iffy, we would not even do a live shot here.

GRACE: Susan, Susan, Susan, if it`s a drug problem and you want to get money for a drug debt, why do you kill everybody? You`re never going to get money that way. That doesn`t even make any sense. Let`s kill a little 7-year-old boy? Uh-uh!

ROESGEN: Maybe they didn`t want money, Nancy. Maybe it was to send a signal. I don`t know.

GRACE: OK, well, you know, that`s a great theory maybe in a novel or in a movie. But with all of the drug trafficking cases I`ve ever handled, I have never seen this type of revenge. I think that motivation is going to be a lot closer to home.

Everyone, when we come back, Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist and dear friend of Jennifer Hudson, joins us exclusively.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tragedy. It`s a tragedy. Its should have never happened. Should have never happened. And to a kid 7 years old? No.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over the weekend, Hudson offered a $100,000 reward for 7-year-old Julian King`s safe return. But today, Chicago police found a body in the back of this stolen SUV and confirmed it was Hudson`s nephew. It is a terrible blow for the big city star with home town roots, the dream girl who could not have dreamed of such personal tragedy.


GRACE: Joining us right now, two very dear friends of the "American Idol" superstar Jennifer Hudson, Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist, and friend and neighbor of the Hudson family Stephanie Patton (ph). To Diana DeGarmo. Thank you for being with us. I understand that Jennifer Hudson was extremely close to her mother.

DIANA DEGARMO, FRIEND OF JENNIFER HUDSON: Very much so. Very much so. And I can only imagine what she`s going through. Actually, the last time I saw Jennifer, her brother was with her. And every time, you know, we were on the show, Jennifer always talked about her mom because I was there with my mother and she always said how much she missed her mom and how much she wanted her to be there. And her mother was a delightful, delightful person, and I can only imagine what she`s going through.



UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tragically, search efforts ended shortly after 7:00 a.m. this morning. Chicago police responded to a call of a suspicious vehicle parked at 1313 South Colon. The call was received at 7:06 a.m., and called in by a community resident.

The vehicle was parked on the street in front of a residence and matched the vehicle description of the white Suburban, license plate X584859, listed on the AMBER Alert.

At this time, we can confirm that the body located inside the vehicle was the body of 7-year-old Julian King.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: The "American Idol" superstar jetting to Chicago to identify bodies left behind, her mother, her brother, her 7-year-old little nephew, all murder victims.

Joining us right now, a very dear friend of Jennifer Hudson from "American Idol," you all remember Diana DeGarmo. Also with us, Stephanie Patton, a neighborhood and friend of the Hudson family.

Ladies, thank you for being with us.

We are taking your calls live. To Stephanie Patton -- Miss Patton, again, thank you for being with you. Were you home.


GRACE: . at the time of the shooting?

PATTON: Yes, I was.

GRACE: Did you hear or see anything?

PATTON: I didn`t hear anything. I didn`t hear anything. The kids were out of school that Friday. It was quiet morning. You know, I left about 10:00, and I didn`t hear anything. I get back about 2:30 and the police were out here.

GRACE: Have you spoken to any of the family members since this happened?

PATTON: No, I haven`t. No.

GRACE: And could you tell me how well you knew the Hudson family?

PATTON: My kids played with Julian, and I knew Jason. I didn`t really know Miss Hudson very well. You know, I just heard of her. You know, and I knew she lived here when Jennifer won the Oscar, you know, that`s when I first found out she lived here.

You know, I`ve lived here for seven years. And, you know, I knew Jason, always giving barbecues, and that`s it.

GRACE: Tell me what the little boy was like.

PATTON: A nice little boy. He reminded me of my little boy. That`s why I really took notice to him, you know. A lot of kids out here play together, you know. But he was a nice little boy, polite. Reminded me a lot of my little boy. Very pleasant to be around.

GRACE: How is the neighborhood reacting to what`s happened?

PATTON: Well, we are devastated. We`re devastated, you know. This could have happened to any one of us, our family, and we`re -- that`s why we`re out here. Many of us have been out here since Friday, nonstop, you know, just to give our support to the Hudson family.

GRACE: Back to Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist, I know that you guys were very, very close during the "American Idol" contest, and you have remained in contact since then.

How did all of the fame and the Oscar change her, if it did?

DIANA DEGARMO, "AMERICAN IDOL" FINALIST, FRIEND OF JENNIFER HUDSON: It didn`t change her personally. It definitely made her a lot more popular. You couldn`t really exactly go out anywhere without seeing her name somewhere or people recognizing her.

But she was the most wonderful person during the show, after the show, after winning her Oscar, you know, having all this notoriety and all this fame. She was still just wonderful to be around and it was great to, you know, think that I was just one of her friends from "Idol" and she was still friends with me, too.

GRACE: So she remained true to you as a friend after all this time.

DEGARMO: Definitely. And I know how close she was to her mother. I mean she talked about her mother very often, even when we were on the show and tour, she always talked about her and -- because I had just my mother and she was -- said that it kind of reminded her of herself with her mother.

And I can -- I mean I can only imagine what she`s going through. It`s just utter, utter heart break.

GRACE: And didn`t she just become engaged?

DEGARMO: She did. And, you know, she`s having so many wonderful things -- you know, coming to her with a brand-new CD that`s number one, a new movie out, all this, you know, wonderful things, getting engaged and planning a wedding and to have such a huge catastrophe happen.

I mean she basically lost almost her entire family in one day.

GRACE: How -- who`s left in her family?

DEGARMO: I mean, she has a few other siblings, but her mother and her brother, Jason, and her nephew, and that really close family, that was it. And you know, her father was not a part of her life very much, and I just - - I know just from how she was on the show, that I can only, only imagine. It`s just -- it`s really terrible.

GRACE: Thank you to Stephanie Patton and Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist and friend of Jennifer Hudson.

Everyone, right now, we`re switching gears quickly. We are still taking your calls live, but I want to give you the latest in the search for Caylee.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: New developments today in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars awaiting trial, a judge is expected to officially charge Anthony with capital murder and many other charges related to Caylee`s disappearance.

Anthony has pled not guilty and could be facing the electric chair or lethal injection.

Also today, Texas Equusearch being preparations to return to Orlando where they will be joined by Leonard Padilla and others helping to find the remains of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: New developments today in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars awaiting trial, a judge is expected to officially charge Anthony with capital murder and many other charges related to Caylee`s disappearance.

Anthony has pled not guilty and could be facing the electric chair or lethal injection.

Also today, Texas Equusearch being preparations to return to Orlando where they will be joined by Leonard Padilla and others helping to find the remains of little Caylee.


GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, joining us from WNDB News Talk 1150.

Mark Williams, a lot is happening in the case right now. Number one, stunning FBI lab results are back. We know what they say. Number two, the search for Caylee is gearing up. And number three, still, no visits whatsoever to the jailhouse from tot mom`s family.

Number one, the FBI results, give it to me in a nutshell.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, first off, Casey Anthony tomorrow is going to proclaim her innocence in court. Judge Stan Strickland expected to accept her not guilty plea in the first-degree murder indictment handed up.

Also, this is -- this is all against the odds that have shown up, Nancy. For example, the facts that -- that they found the hair samples in the car, they -- match a little -- they match Caylee or Casey. It`s not really conclusive, but that hair has the death band on it.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait just a minute. Don`t start up with me. You`re tuning up. First thing about it`s not conclusive.

First, to Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist.

Dr. Arnall, let`s just break it down. The hair matches either Casey Anthony, the tot mom, or Caylee, the little girl. It`s got a death band on it. What does that say to you?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It says that the person who is, obviously, deceased is decomposed. It could be Caylee. It could be Casey. But, of course, Casey is not decomposed.

GRACE: So, bottom line? Break it down, so Mark Williams will get it.

ARNALL: Well, you know, the mitochondrial DNA is not as specific as nuclear DNA.

GRACE: Oh, come on, Dr. Arnall. The U.S. government has been using it for decades to identify fallen soldiers overseas. Come on.

ARNALL: Right. And what happens is the same thing is going to happen in this case. They`re going to combine the circumstances of the case.

The probability that a person with that mitochondrial DNA was somehow mysteriously found in the -- the trunk of Casey Anthony is going to suggest that it is probably only one person, and that only one person is Caylee Anthony.

GRACE: With me right now, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist, joining us out of John J. College of Criminal Justice. And he is a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.

OK, give me your best shot, Kobe.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, quite simply, as you just heard, mitochondrial DNA profile is not unique. In fact, not only does Caylee and Casey share the same profile, but so does Cindy and so does Lee, the brother.

GRACE: Yes, they`re all alive. They`re all alive, Kobe.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, they`re all alive. And.

GRACE: So what`s your point?

KOBILINSKY: The point is, is that it`s very important that when we talk about this hair, and we say that it`s Casey or Caylee, that is just not the case.

GRACE: OK. You know what?

KOBILINSKY: That`s not scientific.

GRACE: You know what, Kobe? I`ll give you your point. So the hair could be Lee Anthony, Casey Anthony, Cindy Anthony, or Caylee Anthony. Only one person out of that bunch, we don`t know if she is dead or alive. That would be the 3-year-old.

KOBILINSKY: Right. How about the.

GRACE: Do you agree with that?

KOBILINSKY: How about the other people, Nancy, that are unrelated that still have the same mitochondrial DNA profile? Can we rule that out?

GRACE: Such as who? Such as who?

KOBILINSKY: Well, there are people in the population who share.


KOBILINSKY: . that identical profile. Such as who, I don`t know the names, but the statistics prove that there are others that share that same profile.

GRACE: Really? About how many others, Kobe?

KOBILINSKY: I think the -- the statistics are in the report. I don`t have it in front of me. But about.

GRACE: How convenient.

KOBILINSKY: Well, it`s the facts. It`s not a matter of convenience.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . if we find that out that people are going to look at you a wrong way?

ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . and hasn`t returned her?

ANTHONY: . the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.





UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sources say someone at the Anthony home looked up chloroform on the Web around the time of Caylee`s disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A parent, usually a mom, will put a kid to sleep by covering over the nose and mouth or something and cause her to lose consciousness.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bond(ph) says the practice is more common among young moms who don`t want to be bothered by a crying baby. Bond says it`s a dangerous practice, because you don`t know how much the child is inhaling. It can shut down the respiratory system, the brain and then the heart.


GRACE: Stunning FBI lab results are in. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court tomorrow morning. We believe she will enter a not guilty plea, and the search for little Caylee gears up.

Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, you are taking part in the search, joining forces with Texas Equusearch, and you`re rounding up bounty hunters from all over the country to help search.

Where are you going to start?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ASSISTING IN EQUUSEARCH EFFORTS FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: We`re going to start with meeting with Tim on the 7th so that we have everything organized. We`ve got -- according to what Tim told me this past Saturday, we`ve got over 7,000 people, closer to 8,000 that have actually called his headquarters.

And I get 50 to 100 calls a day from people that are wanting to join. And he also said that we`re close to the -- I shouldn`t say "we." It`s his program -- close to the $50,000 mark.

We hope that we will be geared up with at least 8,000 people to search starting the morning of the 8th.

GRACE: You know, when you got in the bounty hunting business, I`m sure you never believed that you would be tromping through the -- Florida woods looking for a little 3-year-old girl.

Tell me why you are so convinced she will be found there.

PADILLA: Well, I was just talking to my nephew, Tony, here. And I said, you know, Tony, the last thing I -- the last words I had with Casey when I walked out of the house when she told me to leave was I turned to her and I told her, I said, I`m going to find Caylee, with or without your help.

We`re going to find the little girl there because she`s never -- Casey was never off that phone. And as long as she had that phone in her hand, she was using it. And we have the cell towers pretty well plotted out on a map.

We know where she was on certain days. And we know that the child was in the trunk of the car on the 18th. We know her dad believes -- George believes that the child was in the trunk on the 24th. And she parked the car by dumpsters to either mask the smell or put the child in the dumpster.

So we`re going to start looking for the -- the signals that were sent to the towers between the 26th and the 30th -- actually, the 26th and the 27th. The 27th is the most important, because on that day, she walked from her boyfriend Tony`s house, got in the car, drove to her mom`s house, called JCPenney, and then she spent 18 minutes in an area there that`s not that large.

That`s where we`re going to start on -- on the 8th.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150, where the pings are that Padilla is talking about, does that coincide with those three sightings of her? Those alleged three sightings? The two men until vehicle together, and then the one woman?

WILLIAMS: Right in that area, Nancy. She made more than 70 calls, according to Tony Pipitone with Channel 6 News here in town. I mean not only was she a texting queen, but she was on this phone constantly.

And that`s their area of search. It`s a wooded area, it`s flat. You know -- and they had to call off the search, Nancy, originally, a couple of weeks ago, because we had that tropical storm.

GRACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: . that flew through here and now, of course, things have drained away and things will be just fine for them.

GRACE: Weigh in, Mike Brooks?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Nancy, I think that cell phone pings, that is crucial to this, just as Leonard was saying. And I think that there -- if you take a look, you look at this right here.

This is, as they said, electronic footsteps, and that`s right on target. I think they will be able to -- to take it to that one area. And with those three -- with those three separate sightings, I think that most likely that`s most likely where you`re going to find little Caylee.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, do you believe there has been a tap on their telephones ever since she got out of jail until she went back in?

BROOKS: You know, as an investigator, I wouldn`t be surprised. I mean you never know who she`s going to call. She`s been sitting in that house. Before she went back to jail, she was sitting in that house, she was over at her attorneys.

I would -- either a tap or at least a pen register that registers that all of the numbers of the incoming and outgoing calls.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president of Klaas Kids Foundation -- Marc, is there any chance that she is still alive?

MARC KLAAS, CHILD ADVOCATE, PRESIDENT, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION PRES., KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: No, there`s no chance that she is still alive. But I have real concerns about this upcoming search.

If you`re going to have 8,000 people that are untrained trampling over an area where you`re really not sure if you`re going to find the body or not, several things are going to happen.

First of all, you could easily trample and destroy evidence. Secondly, if you don`t find her, and you suggest that she is there, and you don`t find her, you`re giving the defense a great argument in favor of the fact that she might still be alive.

So I think that this whole thing sounds really half-baked to me.

GRACE: But, you know, that`s the only way, Marc Klaas. It`s the only search.

KLAAS: No, it`s not the only way.

GRACE: Who else is searching? Nobody else is even searching.

KLAAS: You know what, it`s a really big world, Nancy, and she`s a very tiny little girl. And until you have some compelling reason to be in an area, you shouldn`t be in that area.

And if you are, you don`t take 8,000 untrained people and have them just nilly-willy going through that area. This is something that has to be done in a very -- in a very organized way and a very professional way, so that you don`t trample evidence, so that you`re able to maintain it, and so that you can then either recover the little girl, or find something that can be used against Casey in a court of law. Not something that`s going to provide her with an excuse.

GRACE: I want to go to Drew Petrimoulx, with WDBO Radio.

Drew, are the volunteers being given guidance by police or by professional searchers?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, what they have done is they`re actually asking to enlist ex-firemen, ex-military personnel, ex- police, and like Leonard said, he`s bringing down a bunch of bounty hunters.

And what they`re going to do is meet with Texas Equusearch and be team leaders and provide some kind of training to them, that way they can go out in teams and kind of supervise these people so it`s not just, you know, random people stumbling around in the woods, that could.

GRACE: Exactly.

PETRIMOULX: . in fact, you know, destroy some evidence.

GRACE: Exactly. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Randy Zelin, Alex Sanchez.

Randy Zelin, even if a volunteer finds evidence that would come into court, there`s no statute that says a cop has got to find the evidence.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: 100 percent, but I think Marc`s point is a great one -- when you talk about evidence, and you know this as well as anyone, Nancy -- chain of custody, reliability, laying a foundation.

You have people trampling all over the place, they could be screwing up evidence. You`ve got to lay proper foundations, chains of custody.


ZELIN: People all over the place? I think it`s a horrible idea.

GRACE: Alex Sanchez?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Marc`s point is -- it`s very significant. If they do not find evidence of the child there, the defense is going to make a lot of hay out of that when it comes to the trial. And that could damage the prosecution.


GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Jill in Maryland, hi, Jill.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for all you do.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do we have any idea if the car that was seen by the woman and the car that was seen by the man with the girl coming out with the straw hat were seen on the same road in the same place on the same day?

GRACE: To Mark Williams, I believe they were generally the same description of the vehicles. What about the dates?

WILLIAMS: Well, the dates were right in there someplace. There was a gentleman from an auto auction that saw this woman coming out of the woods with a shovel, a floppy hat and glasses.

GRACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: And, you know, that was the same sighting for -- that was seen in that area. You know, we got the sample of the -- some of the hair samples back from the shovel, and they don`t match Casey`s. So who knows?

GRACE: What I`m asking you was about.


GRACE: . the dates of the sightings?

What about it, Drew Petrimoulx, quickly? Are they the same dates?

PETRIMOULX: Not the same dates, they are.

GRACE: OK, got it. All I just needed was a yes or no.

But, Leonard Padilla, that doesn`t mean that they`re not both true. We saw Scott Peterson go back and back and back to the scene of the crime.

PADILLA: I`m more interested in the two cans of deodorant that were found wrapped up in a cold shopping bag inside of a Target bag. And.

GRACE: Why, may I ask, are you more interested in two cans of deodorant?

PADILLA: Because there -- to deodorize the trunk in the car.

GRACE: Excellent point, excellent point.

PADILLA: And they were found basically where she would have been commuting to and from her home and Tony`s house.

GRACE: Everybody, tomorrow morning, the tot mom is in court, we believe, for a not guilty plea. We`ll be taking your calls live tomorrow night on that topic.

So let`s stop now and remember Army Specialist David McCormick, 26, Bay City, Texas. A second tour. Remembered as a proud Texan. Trained Iraqi soldiers as peacemakers and taught friends overseas about beef jerky.

Planned to pursue a Masters degree in business administration. Dreamed of joining the Coast Guard. Leaves behind mother Anna, brother Will, also in the army, and two sisters.

David McCormick, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.