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Person of Interest in Hudson Murders Reportedly Declines Polygraph
Aired October 30, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner devastated. In an apparent home invasion, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for the safe return of her little 7-year-old nephew, kidnapped from the scene, only to learn the little boy confirmed dead, cause of death multiple gunshot wounds.
In the last 24 hours, police swarm a vacant lot around the corner from where little Julian found dead. Reports are police have recovered the murder weapon. And now we learn as we go to air the caliber of the weapon in that vacant lot, reportedly a .45, is, in fact, the same as found in the Hudson home.
We are live, as Chicago police confirm still -- repeat, still -- no suspects. Hudson`s brother-in-law, William Balfour, on parole for a `99 attempted murder, picked up for questioning, arrested for cocaine just this past June, slipped through the cracks with no jail time, walking free at the time Hudson`s family gunned down. But did one of his girlfriends blow his alibi? Did he refuse a polygraph? Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American Dreamgirl -- American nightmare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF PERSON OF INTEREST: By no means did my son do this. This heinous crime to this family is unbelievable. It`s unbearable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A major development in the triple killings of Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew. William Balfour, the only man in custody in the investigation, has refused to take a lie detector test.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ballistic tests are continuing on that .45- caliber weapon found in a West Side lot near where the body of 7-year-old Julian King, Jennifer Hudson`s nephew, was found Monday inside a white SUV. He was killed with a .45-caliber handgun, as were Hudson`s mother and brother, whose bodies were found inside their South Side home.
BALFOUR: I called my son. I trust my son. My son called us back. So if you committed a murder, why would you call back?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 19 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. In the last hours, the defense commences questioning state`s witnesses all under oath, and it all centers on the tot mom`s car. This after the FBI confirms death, human decomposition and extremely high levels of chloroform in tot mom`s car. Investigators narrow down the timeline after grainy surveillance video shows tot mom at Blockbuster renting a murder movie and one about a child abandoned by its mother, and on the day Caylee last seen.
This as mom Casey orders personal grooming and beauty items from her private jail cell -- skin care, hair products, stamps, lingerie. Nice! But she does nothing from her cell to help in the search for Caylee, spending her days reading, napping, lounging, watching TV. Some life. Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. The timeline of what happened to Caylee Anthony may be narrowing, thanks to new surveillance images surfacing from a local Blockbuster video, Anthony appearing lovey-dovey with boyfriend Tony Lazzaro (ph) just hours after Caylee was last seen, little Caylee nowhere in the video. Anthony`s defense attorney, Jose Baez, scheduled to depose witnesses for the first time today, witnesses including Casey`s boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, who told police that after the time Caylee went missing, Casey Anthony would wake up in cold sweats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. And I would ask her why, and she said that she would have -- she was having a nightmare or something.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause injury to your daughter, Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better life?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more lies. What happened to Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson rocked by violent crime. A person of interest being questioned says he`s innocent but refuses a polygraph.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did your son refuse to take a polygraph, do you know?
BALFOUR: No one knows. I don`t know. You don`t know. No one knows if he refused.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: King`s estranged stepfather, William Balfour, remains a person of interest, and in another development, has reportedly refused to take a polygraph test and has stopped cooperating with investigators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A provisionary police officer located a weapon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One officer hit gold and pulled what we could clearly see was a gun out of the shrubbery. He put it in a box, and they have now carted it to the Illinois state police crime lab.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It could very well be the gun that was used in those murders.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A very real possibility of a second individual, police noticing someone, not person of interest William Balfour, moving the estranged husband`s car, said to be a teal Chrysler, quite possibly moving the vehicle in the hours following Friday`s rampage at the Hudson home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If something develops where it might indicate there`s a second or third or fourth person, we would certainly pursue that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops are focusing on the boy`s stepfather. That is William Balfour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we`re learning he was a gang member at the age of 12, and that really began his life of crime.
BALFOUR: William was not raised to disrespect no one. You all have put my son`s face on worldwide news like he`s Attila the Hun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Hey, it`s not our fault he was arrested for attempted murder, having a record dating back to when he was around 12 or 13 years old and allegedly a member of the Gang (SIC) Disciples.
Straight out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by there in Chicago. What can you tell me about a match-up on the caliber? I know it`s not conclusive, but it`s a start, Susan.
SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is a start, and I -- literally, Nancy, just a couple minutes before this show started, I got off the phone with Monique Bond (ph), the police spokeswoman here. The only thing that she would confirm is that it was a .45-caliber handgun that was recovered yesterday near the place where the missing car and the boy`s body were found. I asked her specifically, Is that the same type of caliber handgun that was used to commit the murders? She said, We won`t talk about anything. Can`t comment.
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks. Everybody, we are taking your calls live. Is there a break in the case? Right now, we are hearing reports that the person of interest, William Balfour, the brother-in-law of Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson, is refusing a polygraph.
Let`s talk ballistics, Mike Brooks. This tiny bullet is a .45, all right, .45-caliber. Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, explain to me about casings. Tell the viewers where they come from and what we can learn from the casings and from the caliber.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, from the casings, Nancy -- every gun when it`s in the chamber, when the firing pin hits the primer, which is the little part that sets off the explosion inside, the casing shoots the round out the muzzle of the gun, it will leave a distinctive mark.
Also, when they recover the evidence from the bodies, the rounds, you see the little copper part that goes right down to about the middle -- that is what goes out of the gun, Nancy. And every gun leaves distinctive marks as it goes through the barrel. And what they will do is, this gun that they recovered, they will that, perform a test fire, take that round out of the -- from the test water or from the gel, and they will compare it to the evidence that was taken from the two bodies at the house on the South Side of Chicago, as well as the rounds taken out of the little 7-year-old boy, Julian, to compare them to see if they came from the same gun.
GRACE: Now, to Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist joining us out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Isn`t there a data bank on casings?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Indeed, there is. It`s referred to as NIBEN (ph), and it is a national database. Any kind of ammunition used in a crime is entered into that database, and that way, the feds can actually link up weapons used across state lines in different jurisdictions. And it`s effective. The success rate is not tremendously high, but it certainly is a very important database.
GRACE: Listen, it`s a place to start.
GRACE: Back to Brooks. When we talk about the pin mark -- the pin mark -- explain what that is, quickly.
BROOKS: The pin mark. A gun has a firing pin. And when you squeeze the trigger of the gun, the firing pin hits the primer on the back of the bullet, and that`s what sets off the explosion with the powder inside of the shell.
GRACE: We`re showing you video just then of an actual testing going down. You saw the expert firing into water or gel. Then you take that bullet, and there are unique individual markings on the bullet. As it hurls through the gun, it`s forever imprinted on that bullet. There`s only one like it. It`s like a gun fingerprint left on the bullet, indelibly marked.
Out to the lines. Kelly in Illinois. Hi, Kelly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, I just wanted to say that I love your show. And I`ve been listening you throughout...
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... this whole Jennifer Hudson thing, and I want to make a comment on his mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s a flaming moron. She should not be talking to anybody about this because she just sounds like an idiot herself. But I want to know, what is William thinking refusing a polygraph test? I mean, if you`re innocent, wouldn`t you think that he would be willing to take one?
GRACE: Kelly, you`d think he would if he were innocent. Now, I`ve got a fleet of defense attorneys on the show tonight that are going to argue with you about that.
And as far as the mother goes, I agree with part of what you say. Yes, a lot of what she said sounded like she was making a lot of very flimsy excuses, but I`ve put so many mothers of defendants up on the stand, and you basically hear the same thing every time. A couple of times, even, Kelly, I put the mother up and say, You`re the mother, right? No further questions.
What about it, Peter Odom? Why not take that polygraph? What`s the problem?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because polygraph is evidence unreliable. You might as well use chicken bones and tea leaves. You know that, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, then why not take it? No, actually -- actually, I believe in polygraphs. Eleanor? What about it, Eleanor Dixon?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, what all I can say is if you`ve got nothing to hide and you`re completely innocent, why not take it? It`s...
GRACE: What about it, Richard...
DIXON: ... just another piece of evidence.
GRACE: ... Richard Herman?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Wrong. There`s no up side for him to take that. He`s the only suspect right now. He`s the person of interest. He`s the one they`re focusing on. There`s no up side for him to take it.
GRACE: Well, if he`s innocent, what`s the problem?
HERMAN: He should not take the lie detector test? Even if he passed it, he`d still be the person of interest.
GRACE: Well, Herman, he`s obviously your client because he`s refusing a polygraph tonight...
HERMAN: Smart man.
GRACE: ... according to sources. He`s not concerned about finding the killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police continue to find promise in the fact that that gun was found yesterday near one of the crime scenes in this case, but they still aren`t sure whether or not it is the weapon that was used to kill actress Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and young nephew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recovering the weapon was a good sign. It gives us some additional clues, and we`re going to keep running them down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three crosses continue to anchor the now huge makeshift memorial that stands in front of Jennifer Hudson`s childhood home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Las night, police removed more potential evidence from that house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m extremely confident that this case will be solved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Straight out to Stacy in Indiana. Hi, Stacy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for all the great information you give us.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, where is the little guy`s mom at, Jennifer`s sister?
GRACE: To Kathy Cheney with "The Chicago Defender." What about it?
KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": The family is all together. They`re at an undisclosed location, and they`re just sticking together, praying, staying prayerful, planning the services now. There are going to be private services on Monday in a church on the South Side, and they`re still pondering whether they`re going to do a public service. We`ll know tomorrow whether they`re going to do a public service.
GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls live. And shortly, we`ll be joined by an "American Idol" finalist, a very dear friend of Jennifer Hudson, so stay with us.
To Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender." What can you tell me about allegations that William Balfour, the person of interest who is allegedly refusing to take a polygraph in the Hudson murders, being a member of the Gang (SIC) Disciples?
CHANEY: Well, there are allegations that he is a member of the Gangster Disciples, as well as Jason Hudson was. Those are allegations. Police have not confirmed that, but those are allegations that they are members of the same gang, called the Gangster Disciples, and that they had some type of drug dealings in the past. But police have not confirmed that. Those are just reports right now.
GRACE: You know -- to Eleanor Dixon. Eleanor, why is it that it`s always about the victim? We keep hearing the brother used to sell drugs, the brother this, the brother that. I don`t care what the brother did. The family did not deserve to be shot down like dogs, slaughtered in their own home. I don`t care what he did!
DIXON: It`s so sad, Nancy, because people say that it`s almost like, Well, he deserved killing, but I don`t think so. I think...
GRACE: It`s all his fault. It`s his fault...
GRACE: ... the little boy got shot multiple times. It`s his fault the mother is dead. It`s not his fault. I don`t care what he did. I don`t care if he just walked out of the jailhouse and came home and plopped down on the sofa and turned on cable TV. Don`t care. Doesn`t matter.
DIXON: You`re so right.
GRACE: Why do I keep hearing it? Why do we keep talking about that?
DIXON: Because people want to make excuses, I think, because they don`t want to look at the defendant, the murderer, the cold-blooded person who did this horrific act.
GRACE: I want to go back to Gangster Disciples. To Mike Brooks. Isn`t it true that in the `90s, the FBI formed a task force specifically to investigate the Gangster Disciples?
BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. It was a gang task force. And they are one of the most violent street gangs in all of Chicago, you know, and they`re also in other states, too, Arkansas, Missouri, Mississippi. And they are still considered one of the most violent, violent gangs, street gangs that there ever were in the United States.
GRACE: And I would like to point out that the government determined Gang (SIC) Disciples making over $100 million per year in illegal drug sales. But will a jury ever hear about that, if, in fact, this guy is responsible?
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta, Peter Odom, former prosecutor turned defense attorney, veteran trial lawyer, and of course, Richard Herman, famed defense attorney out of New York. Welcome, lady and gentlemen. Weigh in, Eleanor Dixon.
DIXON: Yes, Nancy, just what we talked about. It`s always about the victim. And in this case, we`ve got to focus on the defendant and all the pieces of the puzzle that are going to go to convict this particular defendant. And if he`s so innocent, take a polygraph. Tell us what you know or don`t know.
GRACE: The bottom line -- to Richard Herman -- even if he is responsible and if he is a member of the Gang (SIC) Disciples, that type of evidence likely will not come into court. The court will probably rule that that touches on his reputation and is more prejudicial than probative. In other words, it doesn`t prove anything.
HERMAN: It doesn`t prove anything, Nancy. It`s absolutely...
GRACE: It proves something to me.
HERMAN: Well, you`re a little different there. It`s Grace`s law with you, I know.
GRACE: Thank you.
HERMAN: He`s guilty now. You want to put him away and give him the electric chair.
GRACE: I don`t want to compare it to a bunch of judges on the bench with their head in the sand and their butt in the air. And speaking of, to Peter Odom -- Peter Odom, would evidence of gang membership come in at trial, if there is a trial?
ODOM: It might, if it goes to show intent, if it goes to show identity. If the gang membership can tie him to a weapon, then gang membership might well come in. It certainly come in to show that he`s a bad person, though.
GRACE: Joining me right now, James Gannalo, forensic firearms examiner. He`s with the Stria Consulting Group out of New York. James, I want to talk to you quickly about the .45. We now know that the weapon found in the vacant lot is a .45-caliber. We believe that the little boy, Julian, was shot with a .45-caliber. We also have reason to believe the caliber used in the Hudson home was a .45-caliber. But what does that really tell us? There are a million .45-calibers in Chicago.
JAMES GANNALO, FORENSIC FIREARMS EXPERT: Yes, Nancy. Each firearm itself leaves an individual characteristic on the bullet that has been fired from that firearm. These characteristics can be examined by an examiner to determine if it was fired from that particular firearm or not.
GRACE: And if there are bullet holes in the front door of the home, how can you tell whether the shots came from inside or outside the home?
GANNALO: A shooting incident reconstruction can be performed. That`s performed by examining those bullet holes for trace materials to determine if it was an entrance or an exit, and then eventually sticking a trajectory rod through that hole to determine the directionality of the bullet itself.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks. You can visibly look at it and tell entry and exit, or at least I think you can, especially if wood is involved. If it`s just a metal awning door, it might be a little more difficult.
GANNALO: No, you can -- you can do -- you can find out entry and exit on wood, aluminum, and also in glass, and see which round was fired first, even if it goes through glass, Nancy.
GRACE: Everybody, when we come back, we`ll be joined by an "American Idol" finalist, a very dear friend of Jennifer Hudson`s.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s so sad. I feel so sorry for Jennifer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just miserable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It really hurts. Can`t do nothing, but it hurts. He didn`t do nothing to nobody. (INAUDIBLE) He don`t deserve this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ballistic tests are continuing on that .45- caliber weapon found yesterday in a West Side lot near where the body of 7- year-old Julian King, Jennifer Hudson`s nephew, was found Monday inside a white SUV. He was killed with a .45-caliber handgun, as were Hudson`s mother and brother, whose bodies were found inside their South Side home last Friday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Major developments in the Hudson murders. First of all, we learned that a weapon was found in that vacant lot. It is a .45-caliber, and we have reason to believe the little boy was shot by a .45-caliber and that the gun used in the home, the Hudson home, was a .45-caliber. Is it the murder weapon? We are waiting on conclusive ballistics tests.
Straight back out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent. Susan, what can you tell me about William Balfour, the person of interest`s, record, his rap sheet?
ROESGEN: Well, his rap sheet includes this carjacking that everybody talks about, which his mother told you a couple of days ago, Nancy, that it was not that big a deal, but he stole a car and because the owner of the car was on top of the car as he was trying to drive away, he was also charged with attempted murder.
And we know that for sure, but we also -- Nancy, I`ve just got to get this out here. There are some charges against Jason Hudson -- tampering with a vehicle, possession of marijuana, stealing cocaine, possession of a controlled substance. You know, just as a skeptical reporter, convicting the wrong guy is not going to bring back the dead. And what...
GRACE: Yes, I appreciate that. I asked you about Balfour`s record, and you`ve told me nothing about his juvenile record. Listening?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There is a major development in the triple killings of Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew. Chicago police found a gun in a vacant lot around the corner from where the star`s nephew was found dead in an SUV on Monday.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The weapon was rushed to the state crime lab for analysis to see if it is indeed the gun used to murder Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and 7-year-old nephew Julian King.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son did not do this.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: William Balfour, the only man in custody, has refused to take a lie detector test.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Have you talked to your brother?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At 2:13.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How did he sound to you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was perfectly fine. Nothing was wrong. Perfectly fine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did not have anything to do with this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are still waiting for some of the forensics to come back and extremely confident that this case will be solved.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Mike Brooks, trying to get an answer on the full rap sheet including juvenile record on William Balfour, person of interest, apparently refusing to take a polygraph tonight, Brooks?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: He goes all of the way back to 12 years old, Nancy. In 1996 he was arrested for possession of marijuana and criminal trespass to a vehicle in December.
In `96 also again, possession of marijuana. Again in December 1997 possession of marijuana, 1999, possession of stolen vehicle, attempted first-degree murder, and that was the vehicular carjacking where he served only, only seven years and then he was arrested again while on parole, Nancy, in June of 2008 for possession of crack cocaine.
And now a parole violation for not cooperating with the police because apparently what happened, Nancy, they brought him in, and I can tell you Jody Weiss, who is the superintendent, former FBI, what they`ll do is they`ll bring him in, said OK, well, let`s see what -- what happened and tell us what happened.
So he had talked to him and then they`ll stop him because the same kind of thing I used to use as investigative tools, and say, well, look, let`s clear all this up, why don`t we take a polygraph? And that`s when I`m hearing, Nancy, that he decided to stop cooperating with police and refused to take a polygraph and hasn`t talked ever since.
GRACE: Back to CNN correspondent, Susan Roesgen, standing by there in Chicago. Would it have been that difficult when I asked you for Balfour`s history to give me that history? Instead, you unloaded on the dead victim. Why?
SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I guess because when everybody goes this way, Nancy, I go that way and come on, those...
GRACE: Good to know.
ROESGEN: . petty juvenile. Marijuana possession? Come on, the guy was mellow. That doesn`t prove anything. A couple of marijuana possessions? I am not impressed with that, Nancy.
GRACE: It`s a crime, Roesgen. It`s a crime.
ROESGEN: Yes, I -- I know, but let`s talk about the other possibilities.
GRACE: No, I`m just wondering what your phobia is about.
ROESGEN: What if it`s the wrong guy?
GRACE: Look, I`m not saying he`s responsible for this because, likely, if he were responsible either, A, they`d have charged him and had fingerprints off the same.
GRACE: Or, B.
GRACE: Or, B, they are waiting to find out if there`s an accomplice and once again, the accomplice, get them both. So I don`t know what the police are thinking right now, but I do know that you hedged on the answer and instead attacked the victim.
I don`t care what the victim`s record is, except that you make a valid point if it is linked in any way to the shooting. If his criminal enterprise somehow is linked.
GRACE: . to the shooting the only reason I would care about it -- to Eleanor Dixon -- is it will help me figure out who the killer is. Weigh in.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Exactly. You want to sometimes look at the victim`s criminal record to see who he associates with, if maybe some of -- if he in fact does have a record, but what`s interesting about this defendant, and the defense attorneys can pooh-pooh this all they want, but it`s an escalating pattern of behavior with him.
He starts out with a criminal trespasses and drugs, the next thing you know it`s a carjacking and cocaine. That`s pretty bad, Nancy.
GRACE: To Susan Roesgen -- Susan, I understand that other evidence was also found in the vacant lot, not just the weapon?
ROESGEN: The police have small bits, Nancy, but they didn`t elaborate on that.
GRACE: Small bits of what?
ROESGEN: But listen.
GRACE: Small bits of what?
ROESGEN: They wouldn`t say. And Nancy, this is my point. This guy has been locked up, Balfour`s been locked up in custody for six days now. They haven`t found anything?
GRACE: I don`t know that.
ROESGEN: They are probably waterboarding him in there. They haven`t found anything on him.
GRACE: I don`t know that. I don`t know they haven`t found anything.
ROESGEN: The whole city is pressing them.
GRACE: To Odom and Herman -- let`s go to the lawyers, Dixon, Odom, Herman, that doesn`t mean anything that there`s not a charge yet, Richard Herman. They could be playing with him like a cat and a rat.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They violated him for failing to attend an anger management order.
HERMAN: I mean that`s ridiculous.
HERMAN: He was caught.
GRACE: But so what?
HERMAN: He caught with cocaine, what, a couple of years ago? They didn`t violate him for that.
GRACE: No. It`s actually in June.
HERMAN: They`re putting him in the frying pan. They`re trying to get a.
GRACE: OK. You know what?
HERMAN: . get confession out of him. They don`t have it.
GRACE: Maybe I`m the one that`s crazy tonight, but my question was to you, Peter Odom -- let me give you a stab at it, just, you know, just give me a try, all right? Just try. Just because they haven`t given -- put a charge on him yet, that doesn`t mean anything.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the police have announced that they have him as the only suspect, the only person of interest.
GRACE: Person of interest.
ODOM: But if they`re doing their job, they will be looking at everything including the gang affiliations of the victim to look for other suspects. That`s what good police officers do.
GRACE: To Eleanor Dixon -- Eleanor, when you`re just a person of interest, you`re not formally named a suspect, and you`re in custody, don`t you still have to have your Miranda rights because you`re in custody?
DIXON: Exactly right. If they want to question you about that crime, you have to be read Miranda, but they`re making -- these defense attorneys are making a big deal about a parole violation.
Nancy, when you`re on parole you`ve been given a chance. You have to follow the law and he didn`t.
GRACE: Eleanor, I agree with both of you -- all three of you. Yes, it`s a second chance, it`s a lifeline, but I, frankly, think that you don`t normally revoke just because somebody misses.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
GRACE: . an anger management meeting, plus the guy called in and went, hey, I`m babysitting, I can`t come. They`re -- they`ve got him for another reason, you can put money on that.
To Bethany Marshall -- Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers," weigh in, Bethany.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I agree with Eleanor Dixon. This seems to represent an escalating pattern of violence and what`s interesting is there`s the earlier carjacking.
He speeds down the freeway with a guy on top of the car, attempted murder with a carjacking and then, in the current case, I know he`s not a suspect, but there is the taking of a car along with the taking of a life. I think that is a significant pattern.
Julia writes in her MySpace that because she made the natural choice to love this is what happened. It raises the question in my mind, what is she talking about because she loved her son Julian, did someone get jealous and do away with him?
Did she find a new boyfriend so whoever she was involved with romantically already become jealous and decides to blow away her family as a form of retaliation?
It does really bear the markings of a domestic situation more than sort of a gang and drug situation in my mind.
GRACE: Why do you say that? What markings say domestic, scream domestic?
MARSHALL: OK. With domestic there`s usually either financial incentive or jealousy. What`s the financial incentive? I mean who`s -- who`s paying child support maybe for this little boy and would have wanted him gone?
I mean, with Balfour, he was the stepfather. He wouldn`t have been paying child support. I know Balfour apparently took Julia`s car according to one support -- according to one report. So, you know, he already had what he wanted from her, but jealousy, if she had another boyfriend that could have been a motivation.
GRACE: With me right now Jon Peter Lewis, "American Idol" finalist, a dear friend of Jennifer Hudson`s. He toured with Hudson after "Idol."
I`ve got to find out what you learned about her as a person on tour. That`s the kind of circumstance where you learn a lot about other people.
JON PETER LEWIS, "AMERICAN IDOL" FINALIST, FRIEND OF ACTRESS/SINGER JENNIFER HUDSON: She was always really, really sweet to me. You know, I mean, she was sweet to everybody around us. She was really hardworking. You`d always see her in the hallway working on her stuff and keeping her nose cleaned.
I mean she was -- really disciplined, you know, about everything that she did. You know she was very -- I mean just a really conscientious person. I mean I always really admired her and respected her talent, respected who she was.
GRACE: Isn`t it true that she is extremely religious?
LEWIS: Very religious. Yes, I mean, I mean, all of her background was mainly in church singing and she was, you know.
GRACE: Do you remember the first time you ever heard her sing?
LEWIS: Yes, I do. I remember it was in the going to Hollywood week. I remember hearing her sing for the first time and just looking back at the guy behind me thinking, you know, we`re in trouble? You know, I mean, she was just that good. She was amazing right off the bat. And you know.
GRACE: And her brother, for all the potshots he`s getting tonight, yes, I know he had a record, but he was there supporting her throughout.
LEWIS: Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean he was there the entire time. I mean you could tell they were close, I mean because -- from her perspective, I mean she`s always -- I mean it was within the "Idols`" control to be able to invite who they wanted to come to the show, you know, to see them.
And so, I mean, she was -- Jennifer is, obviously, inviting her brother, you know, every -- you know, every week because he was there every week. You know? And you know, it was really -- it was really nice.
GRACE: How long were you guys on tour together?
LEWIS: Well, you know, we were -- let`s see, we were on the road for about three months, but I mean we were in really close quarters, all of us, you know?
LEWIS: For about -- for the better part of a year. You know, I mean -- I mean I was -- we knew each other a long time, you know, throughout a year.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A probationary police officer located a weapon in the vacant lot behind us. The weapon was located in some thick shrubbery and was immediately cordoned off and recovered by the crime lab. That weapon will be sent to the Illinois state police crime lab for further testing.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You mean as the questions are about the chain of custody of the car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to make any comments about strategy or anything like that.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The defense won`t say, but it`s most likely questioning Lazzaro and the others, three employees of Johnson`s Record Service including Simon Birch who was there when Caylee`s grandfather opened the trunk to show that the evidence in the car could have been tainted because it wasn`t secure.
Simon Birch told investigators the smell caused him to fear Caylee`s body was in the trunk in the trash bag that was in there.
The defense also questioned Katherine Sanchez from Amscot where Casey`s car sat for days in the parking lot, again, possibly to show no one was watching the car 24/7.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you freaked out about all of this to think that she might have been with you just hours after this happened?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He didn`t answer us to today, but he has said exactly that. Channel 9 was first to show you these color surveillance photos on of Casey Anthony and boyfriend Tony Lazzaro at Blockbuster renting movies just hours after investigator say Casey could have murdered her daughter Caylee.
Lazzaro has told investigators that Casey would not let him near her car when he picked her up at Amscot after she told him she ran out of gas. He offered to help with the car but she told him her father was going to take care of it.
We know now that the car smelled of death and she had tried to keep her father away from the car as well before she had abandoned it.
GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. I understand the defense has begun questioning, commenced questioning of state witnesses. Explain.
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Defense attorney Jose Baez questioned five witnesses today including Tony Lazzaro who is Casey`s ex- boyfriend. You`ll remember that we, in the last couple of days, have seen photos from a Blockbuster of them renting horror moves on the day when investigators believe that Casey actually skilled her daughter Caylee.
Also that got questioned today were the manager of the Amscot where Casey dropped off her car and three workers at the tow truck company that towed that car.
Now one of those workers actually accompanied George Anthony when they walked out to the car and he said that the car smelled like another car that he had towed and in that car somebody had committed suicide.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, who is helping the search for little Caylee, what do you make of these witnesses?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, I can only tell the truth and the truth is exactly what they`ve already got in their police reports.
The testimony under oath that, I think, is being taken right now is duplication and I`m sure that Jose would like to try to punch holes in their story, but their stories are very simple, very factual and very truthful. There is nothing he`s going to be able to do to sway them from telling the truth.
GRACE: But on Tony Lazzaro, the other witnesses, Leonard Padilla, are all about the car. Lazzaro has a lot to talk about. That`s her boyfriend, her lover.
PADILLA: Sure. And he`s going talk about exactly what Petrimoulx just said regarding her not wanting him around the car, him going and her demeanor in the movie rental store and also the fact that, yes, he loaned her his jeep while he was gone to New York for almost a week and what she did during that period of time and the fact that on one occasion -- I think it was on the 5th of July -- she took it to a car wash and washed it.
There`s a lot of details that not only he, but Jesse and Chris and other individuals that were involved with her, are going brick into play especially if Jose continues to ask them questions under oath.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Richard Herman.
Peter Odom, we`re not at trial, so explain to those that are unfamiliar with it how the defense is getting to question state`s witnesses right now under oath.
ODOM: Nancy, there are just a couple of states who allow these pretrial on-the-record interviews. Florida happens to be one of them. This is a trial preparation technique that the defense is allowed to use in Florida.
Witnesses are brought in. They`re put under oath. Everything they say is taken down. There`s no judge present so the rules of evidence don`t apply. All that has to be shown is that the questions are designed to lead to admissible evidence and the defense in this case is going right after the most damning evidence against Casey.
GRACE: To Richard Herman, it`s a bug plus for the defense. This is a preemptive attack on the state`s witnesses.
HERMAN: What a great opportunity. We don`t have this in New York.
HERMAN: What an opportunity to tie down, lock in the testimony and then be able to use it for impeachment purposes at trial.
GRACE: You`re not kidding.
We`re taking your calls live, to Mary in Georgia. Hi, Mary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: Hi, dear. I`m good, dear, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I live in Macon.
GRACE: Oh, hello to all my friends in Macon, my hometown. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I wanted to know (INAUDIBLE) inside and why Lee Anthony has dropped out of the picture?
Leonard Padilla, we haven`t heard much out of him at all recently. Why?
PADILLA: Well, I think since the FBI and the Orange County sheriff`s office took his DNA, he has kept such a low profile that everybody is concerned as to what he`s doing and a lot of it has to do with him being upset at Equusearch right now because they`re looking for the child.
PADILLA: . as if the child is dead and he`s not.
GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, I understand the tot mom, Casey Anthony, made quite a list of requests. You know what? She might as well be shacked up at the Hilton for all of the beauty and hygiene aids she purchased.
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. She ordered them yesterday, she`ll get them tomorrow, about $70 worth of products, a lot of beauty products, as you said -- lotions, hairstyling products like volumizing shampoo and conditioner, some Chapstick, and some clothing also, some envelopes and some letter-writing paper. But they were mostly predominantly beauty products on that list.
GRACE: You know, what about it, Bethany Marshall?
MARSHALL: Well, I don`t think it`s unusual when somebody is cut off from everyone they`re attached to to invest all their energy back in themselves. Like when a couple divorces, usually they go -- they exercise, they lose weight, they get their nails done. All the libido is invested back into the self.
She has no one to talk to. She`s there all by herself. All of her attention is going to go on to herself and probably for the first time she`s listening to her defense attorney. She`s not spending time via video conference talking to her family.
She had that ah-ha moment when the indictment was handed down and she knows on some level that she`s been had. And so she`s just there by herself in jail focusing on herself.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks -- Mike, I still say that there`s a chance they may make a recovery, that they may very well find something when the search commences.
BROOKS: I really do. And, you know, from what we heard from Leonard Padilla and also from Tim Miller, I think that that is a definite possibility, especially with all the volunteers you`re going to have down there. I just hope the weather holds up.
And, Nancy, you know, one thing that just makes me sick, thinking about them in that video store on the same day where Caylee could have been in the trunk of her car, either dying or already dead.
GRACE: Quickly, out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist, joining us out of John J. College of Criminal Justice, a pay consultant on the Anthony defense team.
Kobe, why do you insist that the evidence is weak in this case with that hair?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well -- but there are -- I mean there are a number of items of physical evidence in this case. Physical evidence is really the heart of the state`s case. And some of it is soft. Just plain soft. And I think there are questions.
GRACE: So you don`t believe in cadaver dogs?
KOBILINSKY: Well, I do up to a point. I.
GRACE: Oh really, what point is that?
KOBILINSKY: Yes, I.
GRACE: When you get paid in a case, is that when you quit believing in them?
KOBILINSKY: Not at all. I think these dogs alert and that`s a presumptive positive. That means that there could be something to investigate further. It doesn`t mean that there`s human decomposition.
GRACE: OK. Put Kobe back on the screen, please.
So you`ve got two separately -- dogs that hit separately, two cadaver dogs, highly trained. You have air samples from the Body Farm saying there`s a dead body, human body in that trunk.
KOBILINSKY: No, that`s not correct.
GRACE: OK. Explain to me.
KOBILINSKY: That`s not correct. If you read the report, the conclusion is that there could be human decomposition and there could be animal decomposition. The report is weak.
GRACE: You know what? You are right. You are right about that. But how do you explain that the cadaver dogs only hits on human remains and there is a.
KOBILINSKY: No, that`s.
GRACE: No, No.
KOBILINSKY: I`m not convinced.
GRACE: Well, you`re not convinced but that`s not what statistics say. And what about the hair with a death band on it?
KOBILINSKY: Well, again, there`s mitochondrial DNA involved in that particular hair. And that is not a unique profile. I`ve heard people say it`s either Caylee or Casey. That is incorrect.
GRACE: But we know that Casey -- you know what? I`ll save my argument for another day because right now I want to remember Army Staff Sergeant Clay Craig, 22, Mesquite, Texas killed Iraq, on a third tour.
Proud to serve his country. Loved family, making others smile, taking nieces to the movies, dreamed of a military career, college and teaching history. Leaves behind parents Debbie and Roger, seven siblings, including sisters Nita and Michelle, widow Cynthia, baby girl Isabelle.
Clay Craig, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.