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Nancy Grace

Possible Second Gunman in Hudson Murders

Aired November 04, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner devastated. In an apparent home invasion, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 award for her 7-year-old nephew, kidnapped from the scene, only to learn the little boy confirmed dead. Murder weapon, a P22 Sig-Sauer .45-caliber handgun, the Cadillac of .45s discovered discarded in a vacant lot just yards from where 7-year-old Julian found dead. Also confirmed, it is the same weapon used in the Hudson family murders.
Bombshell tonight. Police allude to more than one killer. A second killer on the loose? Is that what they`re telling us? Hudson`s brother- in-law, William Balfour, on parole for attempted murder, arrested for cocaine just this June, slipped through the cracks to walk free at the time Hudson`s family gunned down, police not naming Balfour an official suspect. He is now poised to walk free. But can grainy surveillance video be enhanced in the search for clues? Will the Hudson case go unsolved? Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American Dreamgirl -- American nightmare.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The very real possibility of a second individual, police noticing someone, not person of interest William Balfour, moving the estranged husband`s car in the hours following Friday`s rampage at the Hudson home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police have been questioning William Balfour, the boy`s stepfather, but still won`t say he is a suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a person of interest, but that`s not to say that there`s not other individuals that may turn up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What if it`s the wrong guy? They`re probably water boarding him in there, and they haven`t found anything on him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The weapon did, in fact, belong to Jason Hudson. But as of a couple of days ago, there were reports that the murder weapon was, in fact, stolen from a home in Michigan. Police are not confirming who this murder weapon, in fact, does belong to, if it was Jennifer Hudson`s brother, if, in fact, it was a mysterious person in Michigan. There were extra bullets inside of that gun, which, in fact, do match the shell casings at the murder scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four different kinds of distinguishing, unique marks are on those shell casings, linking them to the gun.


GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

The search for little Caylee intensifies, with searchers back in Orlando now, and this time with plenty of back up. A team of bounty hunters join forces to zero in on heavily-wooded areas and other key targets. Tot mom Casey Anthony`s case in court tomorrow morning as teams of psychics also converge in Orlando. Tonight, where is Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for little Caylee Anthony`s body is under way. Search leader Tim Miller meets with police today to talk over plans. The search reportedly will center around an area near the Orlando International Airport.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A cell tower is a three-sided object, and it can give you a direction that the phone was in up to three quarters or a mile- and-a-half. You get enough people out there, you`re going to be able to find the areas where these pings were from.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Almost 2,000 new pages of discovery is expected this week in the disappearance of little Caylee Anthony. Also expected, a pre-trial hearing on theft charges against tot mom, Casey Anthony, scheduled for Wednesday. Anthony could face up to 55 years in prison, if convicted of those charges.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Before we take you live to Chicago, this day one year ago, my life was changed. I nearly died giving birth to John David and Little Lucy. He is named after John the Revelator, who withstood persecution for his beliefs, and David, his father, and David, the warrior king. She is named after her grandmother, who helped raise me, Lucy, and Elizabeth, her grandmother, and Elizabeth, the warrior queen. And in fact, they did do battle for a long time just to live. Their survival may not have happened without your thoughts and your prayers, and I want to thank you. And at your request, photos later.

But now "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner, Jennifer Hudson, rocked by violent crime.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What investigators say is that this is a very big crime scene. There were a couple of people, at least a couple of people murdered there. We do know for sure that left behind at the crime scene, whether it be the killer`s DNA or the killers...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The key is DNA is on the gun. What they will do is swab the grip, swab the trigger, trigger guard, barrel. If they get a partial or a full profile, that will link the shooter directly to the gun. The gun is already ballistically linked to the crime scenes and the victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If something develops where it might indicate there`s a second or third or fourth person, we will certainly pursue that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The killer, in fact, did leave some sort of evidence behind, and that`s what they`ve been collecting and that`s what they`ve been processing. And that`s what they`re waiting for, and that`s why they`re only naming Balfour as a person of interest at this point. They have not charged him with any crimes, and they can`t move forward with the grand jury.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s say that the cops have the right guy, OK? Let`s say that. How did William Balfour then kill two adults, grab a child, put him in a car, get the car across town where nobody saw it, put a cloak of invisibility over the car so that nobody discovered it with the body in the back until Monday morning? Something doesn`t add up.

MICHELE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF PERSON OF INTEREST: You all have put my son`s face on worldwide news, like he`s -- like he`s Attila the Hun. You all are painting him, portrayed my son as being the worst scum of the earth.


GRACE: And as we go to air tonight, Balfour still behind bars but on the verge of being set loose. He has a court hearing on his parole revocation coming up. We`ll find out what happens then.

But right now, police allude there is a second killer? To Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted." What can you tell us?

MICHELLE SIGONA, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, I can tell you that right now, Chicago police -- they just told me this morning, Nancy, that they`re still processing evidence from the crime scene at this time, but they are not ruling out the fact that there may be other suspects involved. And again, as you mentioned, Balfour`s only a person of interest at this time. He has not been charged with any crime. So...

GRACE: Oh, well, hold on just a moment, Michelle Sigona.


GRACE: You`re not usually one to parse words. But isn`t that true, didn`t you just tell me within the last 24 hours that his car was spotted in the Hudson neighborhood that morning around 7:00 AM, then it was abandoned at Robeson (ph) High School, less than a mile away from the shooting scene?

SIGONA: Yes. This is something that you did discuss on your show last night. And his car was, in fact, caught on surveillance. And what Chicago police told me this morning, Nancy, was that they have seen the surveillance tape and that they have reviewed it. They will not comment on whether Balfour can be seen in that tape or if someone else was driving his vehicle.

GRACE: Michelle, Michelle, Michelle, you want to tell me that somebody else stole Balfour`s car...

SIGONA: No, I`m not saying that at all.

GRACE: ... drove it to the neighborhood...

SIGONA: I`m not saying that at all.

GRACE: ... 7:00 AM that morning, then decided, Gee, this was a great joy ride, I`ll drop it off at the high school.

SIGONA: I`m not saying that at all. I`m just saying that I have not seen the surveillance tape myself with my own eyes, and I can only go off of what Chicago police are telling me. They`re doing a great job in this investigation. They`re obviously keeping things very close to the vest because they don`t want to make any mistakes. And if he is the person, which they have not said if Balfour is the person or not, they want to make sure that they have everything lined up so they can move forward with a proper conviction.

GRACE: Well, frankly, on the other hand, you would think if his fingerprints or DNA or any fiber linking him to the scene had been turned up, he would have been arrested on murder charges right now.

Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, what`s your theory on a second killer?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Nancy, you know, originally, they thought it could have been domestic-related. But with the gang involvement with Balfour and the gang involvement with Jason, the -- you know, the deceased -- you know, there is very much the possibility that there could be a second subject.

Now, keep in mind, you know, the Black Gangster Disciples, of which they were members, that is one of the most violent gangs there. And they keep -- they`re very, very tight kinship, if you will, within that Black Gangster Disciple nation. You know, the whole thing about snitching on each other, and that`s why you probably -- it`s going to be very, very difficult to find out whether or not there is a second one.

But it`s going to come down to forensics. That gun is going to be very, very important. One of the first things I know they probably have already done is taken that gun and used a fumer (ph) and super-glued it, which would bring up fingerprints right away on that, and then compare the fingerprints to shell casings that were found at both scenes because we do know, Nancy, that the Sig 220, that`s .45-caliber Sig-Sauer, was used in the killing of all three people.

GRACE: Well, another issue regarding the possibility that the Black Gang (SIC) Disciples are linked -- we do know that Hudson`s brother, who is a murder victim, was shot in the leg recently. He refused to go to the hospital. He was allegedly walking with a cane at the time of the shootings. Now, why, Mike Brooks, would he not go to the hospital with a shooting?

BROOKS: Well, because if he goes to the hospital for a shooting, the hospital has a duty to make -- to call the police. Then they`d come out, and then they would probably arrest him, ask him what was going on, and he`d be -- he`s not going to snitch on anybody.

And that`s the other thing about this neighborhood, Nancy. When the shooting occurred, neighbors heard shots fired early that morning around the same time that his car was seen in that neighborhood, but because everyone is so scared and because of the gangs in that neighborhood, they said, Hey, we`re not calling the police. We don`t want to get involved.

GRACE: Well, what I`m trying to say is, about the possibility that the prior shooting to the leg is somehow linked -- was that some type of a warning? Was that some type of a sign of what was to come?

Everybody, right now, Balfour still behind bars. He has only been named a person of interest, but I know one person that insists he`s innocent. Take a listen.


BALFOUR: I told my son it was Julia that did this because she was upset because William had started dating another girl. So it`s always two sides of the story. Don`t make it seem like my son is the one that was stalking her. He went on with his life. You understand? He went on with his life. He wanted to...

GRACE: Well, actually, nobody has said stalking. You`re the first person that said that. Why would you even bring that up?

BALFOUR: I mean -- why did I bring that up? Because that`s the way you all are painting him, portraying my son as being the worst scum of the earth.

GRACE: You`re asking me a lot of questions that nobody knows the answer to.

BALFOUR: But this is what everybody...

GRACE: No, no, no! Not everybody! That`s has not been said on this show, so ma`am, you need to get your facts straight because that has not been said on this show!

BALFOUR: I didn`t say it was! I`m not saying...

GRACE: You said everybody! You said everybody!

BALFOUR: I`m just in general saying the public.

GRACE: OK. Yes, well, let`s just get that straight.




BALFOUR: By no means did my son do this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... way far deeper than what people in the press and the police officers is dealing with.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody is shocked to hear the news that there`s more to the story, the very real possibility of a second individual, according to "The Chicago Tribune."

GRACE: What is your son`s alibi for the time of the shooting?

BALFOUR: My son`s alibi was with one of his girlfriends.

-- asked the police so that my son could talk to his sister because they`re real close. If he did have something to do with it, maybe she could get it out of him to help with the investigation. They`re refusing my child to talk to their brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think he did have something to do with it?


BALFOUR: No. I don`t want to cuss, but no.

GRACE: Was he still romantically involved with the sister, Julia?

BALFOUR: Yes, they were. Julia`s birthday was just last week, and she had invited my son to have a slice of cake with her. People don`t understand what`s going on. My son loved her. She loved him. Julia and William were separated, but they were still together.


GRACE: A slice of cake? Keep it! Right now, William Balfour behind bars as a person of interest in a triple slaying of Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s family. And right now, police alluding to a second killer stalking the streets of Chicago.

Everybody, I want to go straight back out to Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted." What do you believe police are doing to try to find the so-called second killer?

SIGONA: Well, at this point, Nancy, as I mentioned earlier, investigators are still processing all the evidence that they collected from the crime scene and also from the SUV. I`m sure you remember they actually towed the SUV with the nephew`s body inside of it over, and to be able to process that scene, as well. So as they, you know, put things together, they`ll be able to move forward.

GRACE: I want to go to Kathy Chaney, reporter with "The Chicago Defender." On the other hand, Kathy Chaney, if there is a possibility that Balfour will be charged, what`s the hold-up if they`ve got fingerprints?

KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": Well, police won`t confirm what type of evidence that they have that may link him to these homicides. But the state`s attorneys office, they will not move forward until they have all their ducks in a row. The police will recommend the charges. The state`s attorneys office will approve them. And then at any point, even up to his parole hearing, they can do that.

GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of New York, veteran trial lawyer Richard Herman, and defense attorney Penny Douglas Furr out of Atlanta. Richard Herman, if there is a second killer - - I mean, we can`t deny the fact that somebody drove Balfour`s car to this nearby high school, walked away -- where was Balfour at that time? His car spotted in the neighborhood at 7:00 AM, then the victim`s SUV emerges with dead body in it across town. Will it be more likely to crack the case if there is an accomplice?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, if there`s an accomplice, they`re going to put so much pressure on that guy to come forward, make some sort of plea deal to save his life. This is a vicious three-person slaying, and the first person to break is going to get the deal. The other one is going to go down hard.

GRACE: Penny?

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, if Balfour went there intending to commit a crime, why would he drive his own car? And number two, why would he leave his own car that near the crime? And I would question if it was not some other person driving the car.

GRACE: Let`s see Douglas Furr`s face. OK, let`s answer your question. Why would Balfour throw a man out of his vehicle and then drive away, speeding with the man on top of the car? Penny, why would he do that?

FURR: Well, that`s not very smart, Nancy, but...


GRACE: ... and neither would be driving your car to the scene of a triple murder, would it? So there`s your answer right there.

To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist in New York. Everyone always says this backup defense is just too stupid to be real. Criminals do stupid things all the time. That`s how they get caught, Leslie.

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Exactly. Criminals do very stupid things, mostly because many crimes are crimes of passion. They don`t plan them ahead, And they`re just doing it in the heat of the moment. They make lots of mistakes, and I`m counting on that here to find out what really happened.

GRACE: On the other hand, Mike Brooks, a crime of passion can usually be solved very quickly. If it were domestic, for instance, it would be solved very quickly. I`m still hung up on one thing. Why kill the boy, unless you were afraid the boy could identify the attacker?

BROOKS: That`s it, Nancy. Whether or not he could identify it -- or Nancy, these guys -- I have seen things like this happen when I was in Washington, D.C., of snatch people and just kill them just for the sake of killing, and/or for retribution. You know, here, is there a possibility that it could be drug-related? Yes. Could it be a possibility there could be some domestic involvement? Absolutely. You know, could there be retribution of all three and all gang-related? Yes. I mean, these are three speculative theories, Nancy, but I think you`re going to see...

GRACE: OK. Let`s take a look at the house again. We`re talking about police alluding to a second killer roaming free right now. You see the front entry. We know there were bullet shots in the front door. So far, we haven`t been told inside or outside. But Mike Brooks, if they were from the outside in, you want to tell me nobody in that whole neighborhood saw it?

BROOKS: That`s exactly right, Nancy. I can...

GRACE: That is BS, Brooks!

BROOKS: I totally agree, Nancy. In every neighborhood, you always have somebody up 24/7, looking out their window to see what`s going on. And they always -- whenever you hear gunfire, they always take a little peek out where the shots are coming from. But they`re afraid of the gangs.


BALFOUR: William had stolen a car in 1996. He pled guilty. He served nine years. William was 16 at the time. No, he has never had a gun. No, he has never done bodily harm.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recovering the weapon was a good sign.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every gun leaves distinctive marks as it goes through the barrel.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chicago police are confirming now that the gun found in that ally near an abandoned white SUV was indeed used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a .45-caliber handgun that was recovered near the place where the missing car and the boy`s body were found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She called him at 2:31. She talked to him.

BALFOUR: I called him from work at 5:30 this morning. I called my son. I texted my son. My son called us back. So if you committed a murder, why would you call back?


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Police now alluding to a second killer in the Jennifer Hudson family tragedy. Before we take you to the Caylee Anthony story, I want to go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

Here`s the problem. They`ve got Balfour behind bars as a person of interest on a parole violation. If his fingerprints are in the home, that may not be probative because he could rightfully be there, like my fingerprints in my home. It would mean nothing forensically, probatively. If there is a second killer, they may have a latent print picked up from the home, but they don`t know who to compare it to. They don`t know where to get that known print.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: That`s right, Nancy. If they do have a known print from the home, it may not even be a useful print. It could be a partial print. So it`s not clear that fingerprints are going to solve this case.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute now. You can make a comparison on a partial print. You can.

KOBILINSKY: Well, you can, but it depends on how many points of minutiae are available. And sometimes, these things are not very helpful. What probably will be more important is DNA because DNA can actually not only identify a person, but you can tell if there`s a mixture of more than one person.

GRACE: True. Mike Brooks, I can see the perp`s DNA imprint if it`s a stabbing, but less likely, in my mind, in a shooting.

BROOKS: Yes, Nancy. You know, there is a possibility. If there was any kind of struggle, that kind of thing, there would be. But you know, we`ve got the house. You`ve got his car and you`ve got the SUV, and also the place where they found the weapon a block away. So hopefully, they`ll be able to glean something from that.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you talked to your brother?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did he sound to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He sounded perfectly fine. Nothing was wrong. Perfectly fine.



UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Monday, June 16th, Caylee was last seen alive.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My daughter said she was going to work, and she was taking Caylee to the nanny, to the babysitter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Of course, it was a lie. Only Casey knows where she really took Caylee.

Equusearch will be back November 8th, leading volunteers in the search for Caylee`s body.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Frankly, there`s not a whole lot of people that we trust. I trust Casey.

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: There was a one-hour period on the 14th, where she texted 66 messages.

This woman is addicted to text messaging. I think if Caylee wanted her diaper changed, she would have to text her mom.

C. ANTHONY: I trust her attorney.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Baez has been reprimanded by jail officials for hugging his client on two occasions. The jail`s visitation policy clearly states there should be no physical contact with inmates.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: All the searchers are headed to or already in Orlando to commence the search for Caylee. Expected, nearly 3,000 people.

Straight out to Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted." Fill us in.

JON LEIBERMAN, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Well, I tell you, Nancy, this is actually something that has been too long in the making. We`re going to have -- it looks like 3,000 searchers, as you mentioned, out there.

Equusearch is on the ground right now, meeting with investigators, trying to pinpoint their game plan, which areas they`re going to search first and how they`re going to search those.

You`ll remember, Nancy, a lot of the areas last time weren`t able to be searched, because of the weather, because of that tropical storm. So this hopefully will be a more fruitful search.

GRACE: Joining us right now is Gale St. John. She is psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunters." She has already searched for Caylee Anthony.

Gale, thank you for being with us. Tell me about your involvement in the search.

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE, SEARCHED FOR MISSING TOT CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, we`re still involved with the search. I mean we have volunteer searchers that are there yet. We`re checking out these two very specific areas that we`re having checked out at this time.

GRACE: Which are what?

ST. JOHN: We`re still going back to the Heintzelman/Weatherbee area. The one area was extremely wet, not able to be searched. That area still needs to be searched. And there is another area that was brought to our attention, the Lake Pickett in Route 50. It`s kind of an area that makes a circle around and that area is being checked.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, now helping to search for Caylee -- he has rounded up bounty hunters to join the search, and he is leading them as they join forces with Equusearch, Tim Miller.

Leonard, the psychic has stated where they are searching. How does that fit in with your theory of where the remains may be?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: We`re -- the focus that we have is the pings off the towers on the 27th. Now, obviously, Tim is back there today. He`s got 48 hours in which to get ready. Actually, he`s got four days in which to get ready. The search starts on the 8th.

But we`re going to focus strictly on what he says. He is in charge, he is the leader. Whatever Tim says, that`s where we`re going.

GRACE: Yes, you told me that last time. What I asked you, Leonard Padilla, was how does your search coincide with what the psychic just told us they are doing?

PADILLA: It doesn`t, because we`re searching in a different area, totally different.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Power on, because that will cover two areas at the same time.

Back to Gale St. John, psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunter." She has already been there in Orlando searching for Caylee. Everyone converging again in just a couple days to commence the search. Many volunteers and searchers, including Texas Equusearch, already on the ground right now as we go to air to commence the search.

Gale St. John, a lot of people don`t believe in psychics, that`s nothing new to you. But I want to hear what your psychic visions railroad or feelings have been about the search for Caylee?

ST. JOHN: Well, you know, I`m not here certainly to make anybody believe in psychics, and our team has more than just that to offer as we do go out and search.

You know, the biggest most important thing that I have gone on is the feelings that I had while I was there twice in Florida, which has led me back to that Heintzelman/Weatherbee area.

Like I said, unfortunately, it was so wet we could not search that area. I`m still hoping -- according to the volunteers that we have right now in the area, they`re saying that it has cleared up, and it is now able to be searched and I feel that`s important.

GRACE: Gale, what was your vision? What do you see or feel that leads you to that area?

ST. JOHN: Well, originally, I had gone on things that I had seen visually.

GRACE: What?

ST. JOHN: But I was here in Ohio. I saw a wooded area. I saw some names of streets. Streets that began with, you know, names like that. So that`s kind of what led me there.

GRACE: Names like what?

ST. JOHN: Like Heintzelman, Weatherbee. I had seen things like that, heard names like that. And.

GRACE: When you say you see and hear, does this happen when you`re asleep, or is it a vision that comes to you in the daytime, during your waking hours?

ST. JOHN: During my waking hours is when I have visions.

GRACE: How does that happen? See, many of us are -- want to know more about it, or are intrigued by it. So what do you, stand there at the dishwasher and suddenly, you see the name of a street, it comes -- you just get a thought, like a thunder bolt?

How does it work for you? I know every psychic is so, so different, but how does it work for you?

ST. JOHN: Well, for me, it`s a lot of different ways. I`ve actually been driving down the street and kind of had my entire view blocked, and pictures came in just as if we were watching a television. I had to pull over.

And then other times it`s been more subtle than that. So it`s kind of shocking at times. But, I mean, this started when I was about 4 years old.

GRACE: To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, joining us in New York, I can see that you are shaking your head as she is speaking.



AUSTIN: Well, I have friends who are forensic psychics. I know that this is true. The human brain has so much more capacity than we understand. Why can you be washing the dishes and suddenly remember a song you heard two days ago, or have an intuition about something that will happen tomorrow?

These things do happen. We don`t understand them. And really good psychics are professionally trained, just like other people.

GRACE: To our producer, Ellie Jostad -- Ellie, I understand Casey Anthony`s case will be back in court tomorrow morning. Why?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: That`s right. Tomorrow morning she`s going to be facing 13 counts relating to the theft of checks missing from her friend Amy Huizinga.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute, Ellie. I mean, I`m talking about a murder one case and you`re telling me about theft.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Stealing some checks.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Why do we care? What`s so important? What is she facing in the theft charges?

JOSTAD: Well, she`s facing up to 65 years on those theft charges. Each of them is a third-degree felony. She`s looking at a lot of time in those theft charges.

GRACE: Now why so much for stealing checks and forging them?

JOSTAD: Well, what authorities alleged that Casey Anthony did is that she took these checks from Amy Huizinga.

GRACE: Her friend.

JOSTAD: Yes, her alleged friend. She fraudulently used her personal information, so that`s four counts right there. She also passed the check -- actually writing the check itself is another four counts. And the act of cashing the check is another four counts.

So when you add al those up, you`re looking at a lot of jail time.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers again, Penny Douglass Furr, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and the famed Richard Herman, defense attorney out of New York.

Penny, I guess you disagree with the stacked charges.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, what I would like to see is how many other people in that jurisdiction have been charged with bad checks and they would get up to 60 years.

GRACE: Really?

DOUGLASS FURR: I mean this is highly unusual.

GRACE: Let`s see, Douglass Furr on the screen again. Yes, there she is.

Could you direct me -- I`ve got my pocket constitution with me that I carry with me all the time. Could you direct me to the clause in the constitution that says there must be uniform sentencing? Because I don`t see it.

DOUGLASS FURR: No, I`m not saying there must be uniform sentencing, Nancy.

GRACE: So what are you saying?

DOUGLASS FURR: But to get somebody on a bad check and then all of a sudden.


DOUGLASS FURR: . this woman gets an outrages number of years and somebody else does the same thing and get probation.

GRACE: She hasn`t gotten anything yet, Penny.

DOUGLASS FURR: They`re alleging and attempting to go after an extended number of years. So I would like to see how the judge does go ahead and sentence her.

GRACE: Yes, and I would like to see your legal precedent.

DOUGLASS FURR: And what`s the status.

GRACE: . for an argument that says they`re doing it, why can`t I? You know that doesn`t even make sense.

DOUGLASS FURR: Well, Nancy, I guess if one person commits murder and they don`t want to pursue it, then that`s fine, let them go, but let`s go after this one.

GRACE: Richard.

DOUGLASS FURR: I disagree with that. I think it should be fairly uniform.

GRACE: Richard?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, you know the sentence is going to be concurrent here. It`s not going to be consecutive. She`d be lucky if she gets one or two years of prison for all of that.

GRACE: I don`t know that it`s going to be concurrent. And what do you mean to everybody by concurrent, consecutive, when you`ve got multiple charges like Ellie just told us about.

They can all be -- the sentences run at the same time, like one year on each bad check to all run at the same time, which would equal one year, or one year to run one after another consecutively, which would be 10 or 12 years.

HERMAN: Yes, but she has no prior criminal history. So she`s going to qualify.

GRACE: That we know of.

HERMAN: Right.

By the way, happy birthday to the twins, Nancy. They`re at my office.

GRACE: You know what, Richard?

HERMAN: . signing their contract to be my partners. Defense attorneys.

GRACE: Richard, don`t start.

I want to get back to these charges tomorrow.

To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, you know what? The defense attorneys have a point. You can sentence somebody on theft to the max. I`ve done it many, many times.


GRACE: Gotten a plea or a sentence of -- after a trial to the max. But then they may be due a year behind bars, because they got to make room for the rapists and murderers. But could she crack behind bars and tell the truth?

BROOKS: She hasn`t so far, Nancy. But, you know, they do have -- that`s video surveillance evidence that`s going to come into key -- is going to be key in this particular case, but I doubt if she`s going to crack. She is a tough nut.




C. ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. I need to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to remind everyone we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, LEADING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Caylee`s little body needs to be found. The search will be larger than any search, I feel, we have ever done in history.


GRACE: With us right now, Tim Miller, head of Texas Equusearch, leading the search for Caylee. Tim Miller, not just a searcher, he is a crime victim himself. His daughter went missing and was murdered. Her body found long after.

Tim, thank you for being with us.

MILLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Tim, when you go searching, does the memory of your daughter play in your mind while you are searching?

MILLER: You know it`s not a sad memory anymore, Nancy. It`s kind of the things that when Laura disappeared, unfortunately, her body was found two- and-a-half miles from our house.

But what I did not do back then for my own daughter -- I didn`t know what to do, I basically was just paralyzed. And believe me, I beat myself for feeling I was a father that let my daughter down and I just made a promise the Laura and to God that I`d never leave another family down again as long as there was anything I could do to help.

So Laura`s death was not in vain by no means. And unfortunately, I learned a lot because of her disappearance.

GRACE: Well, Tim, speaking for myself and many others, you have inspired a lot of people to do what they can. I found out the other day, my little court reporter so many years ago, when I would try cases, she was the court reporter, sent you a check after watching you on this show.

A lot of people are believing in you and Texas Equusearch. You`re already there in Orlando. What`s the first thing you plan to do in it the search?

MILLER: Well, the first thing is a lot of planning. We`ve got a location for command center, which is at the Chrysler plant here.

GRACE: Right.

MILLER: We`re going to be bringing in all of the tables and chairs and tents and buildings and copy machines. I`ve got 21 more people that we`re actually flying in from all over the country. That`s a huge core team.

We`re going to have a big meeting Friday night, Friday evening, to set all of the ground rules, go over all of the search procedures.

GRACE: Good, because a lot of nay-sayers are all right attacking volunteers, destroying or overlooking evidence. So that will be a vital, vital moment in your search.

Out to Nate.

Everybody, Nate is Casey Anthony`s former roommate, when she was living with Tony Lazzaro.

Nate, thank you for being with us. Tony Lazzaro was deposed under oath by the defense. Did he share anything with you about where they`re headed?

NATE, LIVED WITH TOT MOM CASEY ANTHONY WHEN CAYLEE WENT MISSING: He didn`t really talk to me too much about what went on. He just gave me a couple of general questions.

GRACE: Like?

NATE: . they`ve asked about were he had lived, you know, and jobs. He didn`t really give me any other insight as to what exactly they discussed.

GRACE: How long was he in there?

NATE: He had left sometime early that afternoon, and I was not home when he got home. But I don`t think he was there terribly long.

GRACE: Very, very interesting that Baez didn`t grill him, because, you know, Mike Brooks, this is like you`re getting a first shot at a state`s witness. What did Baez do, let the opportunity fritter away?

BROOKS: Absolutely. Especially from the video we saw him with Casey at Blockbuster, right in that time frame that the prosecutors feel that Caylee could have been in the trunk of that car dying or already dead.

I mean, it was a blown opportunity, in -- is the way I feel.

GRACE: I want to go back to Natisha Lance, our producer who`s been on the case from the very, very beginning. I know the Anthony family has been forced to move their headquarters again. Why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: There`s been some vandalism, as well as people threatening to picket these areas where they have set up their tent to do their search headquarters. And because of that, Nancy, they have had to move.

They`re now going to be moving to their sixth location. They have been at Publix supermarket before, at a skating rink, and now they`re hopefully going to get some office space where they can continue to do their search.

GRACE: And to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky from John J. College of Criminal Justice.

Kobe, I understand, of course, you are a paid member of the Anthony defense team, that you`ve come up with a new theory on the chloroform in the trunk.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: I don`t have a new theory, Nancy. But I`ll tell you this. You might be surprised to learn that one out of two vehicles tested for chloroform has come up positive, chloroform in the trunk.

These are randomly obtained vehicles and tested in the same way that the Body Farm did their testing on the vehicle in question.

GRACE: Says who?

KOBILINSKY: Says the Body Farm.

GRACE: Based on?

KOBILINSKY: Based on their findings.

GRACE: Based on how many cars?

KOBILINSKY: I think one out of two.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute, wait a minute. How many cars did they test?


GRACE: OK. Hold on. Wait a minute. Let me see, Kobe. They tested two cars. And half of them had chloroform in them?

KOBILINSKY: Yes. One had chloroform.

GRACE: So you think I`m convinced by a two-car test study?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the issue is.

GRACE: I`m so glad I thought to ask you details, Kobe, on your great new insight.

KOBILINSKY: This is not insight, this is simply a statement that.

GRACE: You know what? I -- if I.

KOBILINSKY: If you get chloroform in a random car.

GRACE: I`m embarrassed for you for even saying that, to suggest to me that that`s a scientific point based on a two-car study? That would be like me taking two guilty pleas on shoplifting and then giving you an overview on felony prosecution.

KOBILINSKY: When you expect to find no cars, finding one out of two is saying a lot.

GRACE: And what was the level of saturation in the one car?

KOBILINSKY: It was not a great quantity.

GRACE: Excuse me, I couldn`t hear you.

KOBILINSKY: It was not a large quantity, but it was there.

GRACE: As compared to what was the saturation level in Casey Anthony`s car?

KOBILINSKY: I don`t think that has been.

GRACE: Heavily saturated. Am I right, Jon Leiberman?

LEIBERMAN: Look, it was enough to indict her for murder, along with all of the other evidence there, and there is a lot of evidence that we haven`t even heard.

GRACE: I`m taking that as a yes.


JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months. She has a missing child. She`s also someone`s child. This family has had to withstand something unlike anyone has ever seen.



GRACE: Tonight, again, I want to thank you for all your encouragement, your thoughts and your prayers when John David, Lucy and I were in the hospital for so long.

Today, their first birthday.


GRACE: This past April I married David and tonight announce that we are expecting twins.

The sexes of the twins had been confirmed by ultrasound -- pink and blue.

Tonight, meet two very special guests, two of the tiniest crime fighters, Lucy and John David.

John David is on the left in the green bassie and Lucy Elizabeth is on the right in the pink bassie.

Tonight, my own true loves here on the set to wish you a Happy Valentine`s Day.

When people say how is motherhood I don`t even know the words to describe it. I really don`t. It`s like nothing I`ve never experienced before. I never thought anything like this miracle could happen to me.


GRACE: Happy birthday.

Let`s stop and remember Army Captain Andrew Pearson, 32, Billings, Montana, killed Iraq. On a third tour, also served Afghanistan. A West Point grad, highly decorated, awarded the Bronze Star, Army Commendation Medal and Service Ribbon.

Loved hunting, fishing, riding motorcycle and being a dad. Leaves behind father Ron, Stepmom, Renee, widow Jon Marie and four children.

Andrew Pearson, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.