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Nancy Grace

Joran Van Der Sloot Taped in Thai Sex Trade Deal

Aired November 10, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the sudden disappearance of Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway, missing off her high school senior trip to Aruba. Aruban police claim they can`t or won`t make a case against judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot. Even after a Dutch crime reporter taped months of high-tech secret surveillance proving what happened the night Holloway vanishes, Aruban courts let Van Der Sloot walk free.
But tonight, caught on tape, judge`s son Van Der Sloot is busted, preying on unsuspecting women, attempting to lure them into the sex trade between Thailand and his birthplace, the Netherlands. Van Der Sloot reported to make up to $13,000 per female recruit. Tonight, we have the photos. Will the prime suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway finally end up behind bars?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it was an accident, I mean, I`m sure -- I really truthfully feel that he gave her some kind of drug, but -- and then, you know, if something happened to her, why not be a man and just say, Look, this happened and -- but I knew when they wouldn`t help us come look for her the next day and he goes out and starts hiring attorneys and everything that there was something bad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former suspect in the disappearance of Alabama teen Natalee Holloway has allegedly been caught on tape recruiting Thai women to work in the sex industry in Europe. A sting operation set up by crime reporter Peter De Vries allegedly shows Van Der Sloot attempting to arrange young women to come to the Netherlands. The sting was broadcast on Dutch TV and also reportedly showed Van Der Sloot receiving $1,000 cash for arranging the transaction. Van Der Sloot was confronted by De Vries and denied any wrongdoing. But he did make sure to thank the reporter for the $1,000 cash.

BETH TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: Talking about her like that, my gosh, he just -- you know, first you want to come through the TV and I want to kill him, I mean, pull the skin off his face. And I think of the utter disregard he had for Natalee. And look what he`s done to his friends. Look what he`s done to a country. Look what he`s done to everyone.


GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 21 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. Texas Equusearch, a team of bounty hunters from across the country and over 2,000 volunteers converge Orlando, the massive search by land, by air, by water zeroing in on heavily wooded areas near the Orlando airport and the Anthonys` home, the search locations based on mom Casey`s cell phone pings and the discovery of a suspicious beaded cross. Bones discovered during a search, but are they connected to the case? Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony show up at the search, angrily insisting little Caylee`s still alive. At the search head (ph), bounty hunters stay on searching for Caylee. And as mom Casey sits behind bars, another alleged sighting of the tot emerges. Tonight, where is Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite thousands of volunteers and extensive searches, Caylee Anthony still hasn`t been found, but bounty hunter Leonard Padilla is following his own leads.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Padilla says he has a feeling Caylee`s body is here because he says Equusearch volunteers found a beaded cross near here that matches beads Casey was stringing at home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla claims there was a cross in Blanchard Park, Padilla hiring expert divers to search in the Little Econ River in Blanchard Park. Padilla thinks Caylee`s body may be in that very river, the California bounty hunter also announcing he`s holding a memorial service tomorrow morning. But not everyone`s happy with Padilla`s involvement. Just hours ago, Cindy Anthony confronted Padilla and told him she`s got a problem with Padilla holding a memorial service for her granddaughter.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the disappearance of Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway. Tonight, caught on tape, the prime suspect, judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot, preying on unsuspecting women to lure them into the sex trade between Thailand and the Netherlands. Will he finally go to jail? And how`s Daddy going to get him out of this one?


PETER DE VRIES, DUTCH TELEVISION REPORTER: Until now, Joran always denied that Natalee died in his presence. And now he confessed that and he told what he did with the body, and he told how he came home, what he did with the shoes. It`s the complete story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joran Van Der Sloot, a former suspect in the case of missing teen Natalee Holloway, has allegedly been caught on tape arranging for Thai girls to come to Europe to work in the sex industry. Dutch crime reporter Peter De Vries set up a sting operation on Van Der Sloot. De Vries`s associates allegedly got to know Van Der Sloot and claimed they were interested in bringing Thai women to the Netherlands. Van Der Sloot is shown meeting with De Vries`s men at a hotel room in Bangkok, Thailand, along with two young Thai women. Later, Van Der Sloot was allegedly shown accepting a large cash advance from one of the men, reportedly in the range of $1,000. When confronted by De Vries, Van Der Sloot denied any wrongdoing.

DE VRIES: I was shocked by the way -- by the disrespect he talked about Natalee. He called her a (DELETED) and things like that.

GRACE: He called her a (DELETED). He called her a (DELETED) for absolutely no reason. This girl had a sterling reputation.

DE VRIES: Yes. And he`s showing no remorse at all. He`s telling that he didn`t -- didn`t lose one second of sleep.


GRACE: Joining us right now, Deborah Pugatch with CNN affiliate WBMA. What`s the latest?

DEBORAH PUGATCH, WBMA PRODUCER: What`s the latest, Nancy? Well, I`ll tell you this. What I do know from a Dutch contact of mine who`s a reporter over there is that Joran Van Der Sloot says he did nothing wrong. But according to Peter De Vries, he says he caught him undercover, trying to get young Thai women to go to the Netherlands to go into the prostitution ring. That is illegal and -- according to Dutch prostitution law, that is illegal. Prostitution is legal in the Netherlands, but that is not.

GRACE: Out to Jossy Mansur, owner and director of "Diario" magazine. Jossy, it`s great to be with you again. What do you know about these latest charges against Joran Van Der Sloot?

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, "DIARIO": Well, what I understand is that he did violate the law, both in Thailand and the Dutch law, and that he can be prosecuted for that.

GRACE: To Rupa Mikkilineni, our producer. Rupa, exactly what is alleged happened?

RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, Joran Van Der Sloot was caught on tape, on a videotape, secretly taped by a journalist, Peter De Vries. And he walked into a hotel room with two young Thai women to meet two of De Vries`s men, who were posing as Dutch sex trade bosses.

GRACE: Hold on. Here you are seeing the shot. There are many of them. Investigative reporter Peter De Vries hosts a program allegedly showing Van Der Sloot, suspect in the Holloway case, setting up a sex trade operation between Thailand and Europe. "Good Morning America" has purchased the rights to this video. Go ahead, Rupa.

MIKKILINENI: Well, as you see in this video -- it`s a very grainy video, and they`re sitting around and having drinks and they`re discussing potentially bringing these women somehow, illegally, legally, illegally -- it`s very confusing. He discusses a three-month visa, says he can, you know, formulate some type of false documents that could get these women into Holland to work temporarily. He offers $15,000 or some such amount to pay for these women. These women indicate, Look, we`re not sure. You know, We`re students. This is very tricky. What will we have to do? And then he says that all that it would require is dancing.

GRACE: I believe his words were, Shaking your" -- an expletive -- in front of men, talking to them, sitting down and having a drink with them, and as if they`re going to be models, having your photos taken while you`re dancing.

MANSUR: Yes. That`s correct.

GRACE: OK. Now, you said the women were students. What did he promise the women? What were they to get paid?

MIKKILINENI: Well, in the videotape, he indicates $15,000. He doesn`t say whether that`s for the entire three months, for what amount of work, but he does say that you`ll be working -- they`d be working from 5:00 PM to 5:00 AM. This is a 12-hour day. We`re talking six-day weeks, possibly.

GRACE: With me right now exclusively, Natalee Holloway`s father, Dave Holloway. Dave, it`s great to hear your voice again. Can you believe it? It`s like a bad penny turning up again.

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: It`s absolutely disgusting that this guy is involved in something like this.

GRACE: When did you first learn of the charges?

HOLLOWAY: I learned of the potential video sometime last week, but I wasn`t aware of what the extent of it was.

GRACE: What do you make of it?

HOLLOWAY: I tell you what, I hope the Thailand police do their job and get this guy. He needs to be taken off the streets.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, international law attorney Theodore Simon out of Philadelphia, child advocate Susan Moss, Lauren Lake, defense attorney out of New York, Alex Sanchez also a veteran defense attorney out of New York.

To Susan Moss. Weigh in, Susan.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: First, Natalee is dead and now he`s selling Thai women for bread, and it`s all on tape. Joran is a moron, and luckily, now he`s going to be brought down by his own hubris, his own greed and his own words.

GRACE: To Theodore Simon, international law attorney joining us from Philadelphia. Come on, we`re talking about Thailand. It is the capital of the sex trade business in the world. Like they`re going to bust Joran Van Der Sloot?

THEODORE SIMON, INTERNATIONAL LAW ATTORNEY: Well, it`s hard to say. I mean, what we`ve seen briefly is a tape, only words. We haven`t seen any objective evidence. And the last time Mr. De Vries produced a tape, it was rejected by the Aruban courts when they failed to reopen his case...

GRACE: Theodore...


GRACE: Theodore, if these allegations...

SIMON: He, you can call me Ted.

GRACE: Mr. Simon, if these allegations are correct, will he be prosecuted in Thailand or not~!

SIMON: Well, it`s certainly possible, if the allegations are true. I think we`re a far cry from whether or not the allegations turn into any kind of objective proof.

GRACE: You know what? Before I throw a stone at Thailand, Eliot Spitzer got nothing and he is caught by the feds with hookers. So you know, I guess I shouldn`t trash Thailand too much. But what I`m trying to say, Mr. Simon, is if these allegations are true and it is true that he is preying on unsuspecting young women, students, as a matter of fact, promising them $15,000 to be models and they turn out to end up in the sex trade, stuck in another country with no way back home, will Thailand consider that a crime and prosecute him?

SIMON: Well, I think you`re adding many, many facts that may not be - - may only be fiction.

GRACE: OK, you know what? Maybe you didn`t hear the beginning of the question -- if the allegations are true. You`re the international lawyer.

SIMON: Right.

GRACE: Will that be a crime in Thailand? It`s a yes/no question!

SIMON: Well, you know, it`s a big if. If someone commits a crime, they`ll be prosecuted.




DE VRIES: Oh, yes, I`m pretty convinced by that because it was not a slip of the tongue, what he did. He told -- he did a full confession on tape not once, not twice, but more than 10 times. And he did it -- there were some days between it. They were very detailed. And so I`m convinced that he told the truth. Until now, Joran always denied that Natalee died in his presence, and now he confessed that and he told what he did with the body, and he told how he came home, what he did with his shoes. It`s the complete story.

Patrick (ph) was asking him, How can you be so sure that Natalee was dead? And then he said, Well, I wasn`t. She was just not moving anymore. She wasn`t kicking anymore. And so I thought she must be dead. And then he dumped her into the ocean. And yes, that`s really shocking.


GRACE: Well, he`s back. The prime suspect in the disappearance of Alabama beauty and honor student Natalee Holloway is allegedly right in the middle of the international sex trade -- that`s right, caught on grainy surveillance video actually trying to recruit, according to allegations, young students, female students, promising $15,000, I believe it was a week, to model back home in the Netherlands, his birthplace.

We are taking your calls. To Mary in California. Hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first I want to tell you my family thinks you`re wonderful and your babies are beautiful.

GRACE: Thank you very much. I am blessed. I am blessed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you are. My question is, does anybody know if Natalee`s mother is going to go to Thailand to look for her?

GRACE: Interesting question. To Dave Holloway. This is Natalee`s father. Is Beth or anyone else in the family going to Thailand? Is there any suggestion that Natalee could be alive in Thailand?

HOLLOWAY: No. The first tape that Peter De Vries did back in January had indicated that Joran Van Der Sloot disposed of her, or had some help disposing of her at sea. This part about the prostitution ring came up in that tape, where, apparently, Joran wanted to get involved in a -- another activity, and that activity was prostitution. So this was...


HOLLOWAY: ... he wanted to get involved in, and now he did.

GRACE: Let me get this straight. Everybody, with us exclusively tonight, Dave Holloway. This is Natalee`s father. Refresh my recollection, Dave. Are you saying, in the original Peter De Vries tape, that Joran Van Der Sloot -- this is hours and hours, taken over weeks of surveillance inside a high-end SUV of Joran Van Der Sloot -- he said at that time he wanted to get into another enterprise?

HOLLOWAY: Yes. The first one was the growing and selling of marijuana, and then the other was this prostitution-type ring, so there was two of those type of activities that he wanted to get into. And then as time went on, he had met a friend in Thailand or over there (INAUDIBLE) or whatever, and he approached this friend about making this enterprise come true.

GRACE: Enterprise. You mean prostitution.

HOLLOWAY: Prostitution.

GRACE: You know, in one of the articles, some of the research I was reading, they called it the Dutch sex industry entrepreneur. Translation in this country, a pimp. I wonder what his daddy has to say tonight, Dave Holloway.

HOLLOWAY: Yes, it`ll be hard for him to get him out of this one.

GRACE: The judge.

HOLLOWAY: That`s right. And in that TV show last night, there was one witness who also had implicated Paulus. His involvement was a lot more than what we had originally thought.

GRACE: And there`s the best shot of Paulus Van Der Sloot, the judge, running from questions about Natalee missing. I`ll never forget the shot of his backside running down a dark alley.

Back to Rupa Mikkilineni, our producer. Where is he believed to be now? I thought he was in college in the Netherlands. What happened to that?

MIKKILINENI: Well, Natalee (SIC), apparently, after he was studying in the Netherlands, Peter De Vries`s first videotape came out, and it caused such havoc with his life -- apparently, he was worried for his life -- and so he disappeared off the face of the earth for a while.

GRACE: Translation, dropped out of school?


GRACE: So he dropped out of school. Do we know if that`s his decision or did the school throw him out?

MIKKILINENI: We believe he dropped out. It`s a little bit uncertain, but he actually disappeared. He didn`t show up in Aruba. He wasn`t in Holland. We don`t know where he was. And then he suddenly turns up in Thailand a few months later.

GRACE: Thailand. Now, I wonder why Thailand? To Jossy Mansur, owner and managing director of "Diario" magazine. Jossy, what was he allegedly saying on the tape to the young women?

MANSUR: He was offering them a job as models in Holland, and in truth, he was trying to coax them into prostitution -- in other words, into the sex industries in Holland. That`s what I gather from the paper that I saw.

GRACE: Back to Deborah Pugatch from WBMA. Deborah, again, thank you for being with us. Has Van Der Sloot admitted to anyone else that we know of anything incriminating about Natalee Holloway?

PUGATCH: Well, what we do know is there is a new witness that was a part of Peter De Vries`s piece last night. The witness, who I`ve been told is named Celeste (ph), told Aruban authorities or Dutch authorities last week when they questioned her that Joran did tell her the same thing he told Peter (SIC) van der Eem in Peter De Vries`s first investigative report, that Natalee is nowhere, anyhow. I talked to Hans Mos, the chief Aruban prosecutor, and he confirmed that for me this afternoon.


TWITTY: When I hear Joran talking about her like that, my gosh, he just -- you know, first you want to come through the TV and I want to kill him, I mean, pull the skin off his face. And I think of the utter disregard he had for Natalee. And look what he`s done to his friends. Look what he`s done to a country. Look what he`s done to everyone. It`s just despicable what he has done.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s hurt us tremendously and other families tremendously, and some innocent people of Aruba. He has no remorse, no -- a total disregard for anyone else except for himself, even his own family. And it`s just shocking to me that someone can do this. It`s just -- I`m still reeling from it.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Kathy in Tennessee. Hi, Kathy.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I have wondered from the very beginning is when the party boat captain came forward and seemed to delay the investigation -- I have often thought how far out could that party boat have gone without lights on so as not to be noticed, so someone waiting out there could have taken Natalee off of that party boat.

GRACE: To Jossy Mansur with "Diario" magazine. What about it? How far could they have gotten?

MANSUR: I don`t (ph) think they could have gotten that far, or they should have gotten far enough so that the body couldn`t wash back into the beach. But the party boat has sufficient power, motor, to go as far as the currents will do the job that they had in mind (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: And what would be the closest body of land to transport her?

MANSUR: It would be the beach right by the fisherman`s hut, by the Marriott Hotel.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just hope that he comes clean. He`s got an account to settle, and I hope he settles it on this earth at this time. If he doesn`t, you know, God bless him.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I gave already some investigations in the Natalee Holloway case in Aruba, and I was very intrigued by it and I thought, well, this was just terrible that this case is not solved yet. So then I said to myself, I have to do everything to solve this. That`s how it happened.

Yes. And he (INAUDIBLE) like that, because it was not a slip of the tongue what he did. He told -- he did a full confession on tape, not once, not twice, but more than 10 times. And he did it with some days between it. It was very detailed.

And -- so I`m convinced that he told the truth. Until now, Joran always denied that Natalee died in his presence and now he confessed that and he told what he did with the body and he told how he came home, what he did with the shoes. It`s -- the complete story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that the police knew that she was not alive the second day. When he did the shaking thing in the video -- you know, they questioned Beth and I the first day, second day and then also question me two weeks later and they kept asking about the epileptic fits or, you know, that type stuff.

Well, you don`t ask that straight out of the box. I knew there was something funny. So they knew. I think Joran told them that probably something happened on the beach and she did this but Vonder Striden, you know, just probably wanted to cover his friend`s son`s butt and actually just got into it early on and then it just got deeper and deeper and snowballed and they just covered every track from then on so.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls live. Headline tonight, Joran Van Der Sloot, the prime suspect in the disappearance of Alabama beauty and honor student, Natalee Holloway, has turned up again, this time on grainy surveillance video, reportedly soliciting young female students to become prostitutes, sending them back home to the Netherlands, basically, where they`d be stuck with no way back for about three months.

Again, we`re taking your calls live but right now take a look at the last time he was caught on tape. This is from ABC`s "20/20."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (Through translator): She`s just lying still?

JORAN VAN DER SLOOT (Through translator): Still, still. She`s not doing anything. He says, what happened? I said, I don`t know either, man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you try to resuscitate her?

VAN DER SLOOT: Of course. I tried everything, man. I tried to shake her. I was shaking the bitch. I was like, what`s wrong with you, man? I almost wanted to cry. What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) happened? I said to him, this isn`t possible.

He took the body. He went far out, and he threw her over the side. Then he came back and docked his boat there. And he came by my house for a bit.


VAN DER SLOOT: Yes. Then we talked for a bit and he says to me, you know, it`s all good. She`s going to be missing. They`re going to search but they`re not going to know a thing.

PATRICK VAN DER EEM (through translator): How were you so sure she was dead, Joran? You can`t, you know, people can also go into coma.

VAN DER SLOOT: Yes, I wasn`t sure about that but it really scared me to death.

VAN DER EEM: No, but I understand that. I definitely understand that, that you were scared. She really (INAUDIBLE).

VAN DER SLOOT: No, no. But it didn`t look good.

VAN DER EEM: How didn`t it look good then?

VAN DER SLOOT: Just, you know, she had been shaking and stuff.

VAN DER EEM: What, really shaking?

VAN DER SLOOT: Yes. I don`t know. Yes. Pretty much.

VAN DER EEM: I`m asking you. How were you so (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sure she was dead, man?



GRACE: And even after that, still no arrest. That is video from ABC`s "20/20" of prime suspect Joran Van Der Sloot seemingly more concerned about his own fate than the death of the American teen, Natalee Holloway.

We are taking your calls live. And with me right now exclusively, Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway. When you hear that, does your blood still boil?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: Nancy, it -- does. You know, still -- it`s still tough even after three and a half years of hoping for the best and, you know, we see the worst. And it`s tough. It really is.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Theodore Simon out of Philadelphia, Susan Moss, child advocate in New York, Lauren Lake, defense attorney in New York, Alex Sanchez, also veteran defense attorney in New York.

So, Lauren Lake, on this latest alleged event, what`s your best defense?

LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`ll tell you what, Nancy. Even though we`re all sick of Joran, I mean, but for my defense attorney hat tonight I`m sick of him. The bottom line is not a lot of objective, incriminating evidence in this video and De Vries should know from the last try. We need more than that. OK. The taking of a thousand dollars...

GRACE: You mean more than somebody caught on tape?

LAKE: Yes. We need more than that. Look what happened the last time, Nancy. This guy is somehow eluding the law on every occasion. If they`re going to try to catch this guy they`ve got to nail him and right now I don`t think just this videotape and this thousand dollars is what we call nailing him.

GRACE: Speaking of catching the guy, Rupa, where is he?

RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Great question. It looks like last time Joran was seen in Thailand in Bangkok was at a party on Friday night. De Vries` documentary aired over the weekend and he`s disappeared. We think he`s left the country.

GRACE: So he`s gone from the Netherlands to Thailand to the Lord only knows where.

To Alex Sanchez -- Alex, the guy is reportedly caught on tape, arranging having these girls go to the Netherlands to act as prostitutes, luring them under the guise of being models, taking money for it. He`s even caught on tape thanking his benefactor for the money.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ll tell you, this guy De Vries is Joran Van Der Sloot`s worst nightmare.

GRACE: Tell it.

SANCHEZ: In terms of -- in terms of a defense in this case.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I agree with you on that, Alex. But I don`t care who set him up. I don`t care how he was caught. He`s caught.

SANCHEZ: Well, that`s important. That`s important, though, because the person that set him up was De Vries.


SANCHEZ: And De Vries had set him up the first time around. And one begins to wonder whether De Vries has crossed the line and has gone overboard in trying to lure this kid into doing something that he did not intend on doing.

GRACE: You know what, Alex? Alex, if somebody came up to you and said, hey, I`ve got a plan. You talk young women, students into going overseas to be hookers and I`ll give you 15 thou per girl. You would run, run for the hills, as if you had seen a monster.

I mean, he`s not set up. He`s right there in it. And like Dave Holloway says, he`s caught on tape months before saying he wants to go into prostitution.

SANCHEZ: Then why, after speaking to De Vries, would he say thank you for the thousand dollars? It`s almost like he knew what was going on and he was out to trick De Vries who had previously tricked him.

GRACE: To Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author of "When to Worry," I`m not surprised that he made that smart comment when he was caught. What else could he say?

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO WORRY": Well, remember, this is an arrogant young man. This is one of the most dangerous kind of offenders that are out there. They don`t look like thugs. They don`t look like the strangers that people have warned us about.

This is a good looking, manipulative, charming young man who is cold, callous, and arrogant. It`s not that he thinks law enforcement is stupid. He just thinks he`s smarter than them and he can avoid getting caught.

GRACE: Which he has managed to do so far before he went on the lamb.

Back to Rupa Mikkilineni. Rupa, apparently he has made an incriminating comment to another young girl on a beach.

MIKKILINENI: Yes. That`s correct, Nancy. According to De Vries` documentary, which was mentioned, there is a witness, a young woman that might have been a girlfriend of sorts and he made a comment that indicated he knew how to get rid of corpses from a beach.

GRACE: Do we know what his words were?

MIKKILINENI: I think we do. It`s -- who knows? You may now be on the beach with someone who`s able to get rid of a corpse.

GRACE: OK. Alex Sanchez, thoughts?

SANCHEZ: I think that`s a very troubling statement but if that is true.

GRACE: Very troubling.

SANCHEZ: . then how come the authorities don`t go to the grand jury with the tapes made in that car as well as this witness.

GRACE: You know what?

SANCHEZ: And obtain an -- an indictment?

GRACE: Susan Moss, why don`t they?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I don`t know. This guy is a walking felony. You know, certainly the expectation is, is that because somebody is trying to protect this guy because of his father`s stature but I -- I don`t know why.

GRACE: On the line, Sue in Maryland. Hi, Sue.


GRACE: What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God bless you and your family. I hope they keep you safe from all these monsters out there.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, isn`t it possible t to go to the Netherlands and find some of these girls and these prostitution rings that will also help?

GRACE: To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies" what about it? Is that where we start this investigation?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": No. I don`t think so. It`s a needle in a hay stack when you try and go over to Thailand and try to find somebody like Natalee Holloway.

First of all, I believe, like Peter De Vries, and let me just say God bless Peter De Vries. People have said he tried to cross the line or he may have crossed the line. He did more than anybody to bringing this creature to light.

Everybody knows what -- he`s a serial predator, based on everything we know about him right now. There is nothing, and unfortunately Thailand is not going to do anything because they have a horrible track record, it`s crimes against children, and his own country is protecting him.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it was an accident, I mean I`m sure -- I really truly feel that he gave her some kind of drug but -- and then, you know, if something happened to her, why not be a man and just say, look, this happened and -- but I knew when they wouldn`t help us come look for her the next day and he goes out and starts hiring attorneys and everything that there was something bad.





UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: For a third straight day search crews were scouring parts of Orange County, Florida. They`re looking for possible remains of 3-year-old Caylee Anthony.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: I know that Caylee`s remains are out there somewhere.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A dejected Tim Miller says his Texas EquuSearch has spent nearly $100,000 on the search for Caylee.

MILLER: It breaks our hearts to leave again without finding Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Miller says he doubts Caylee`s remains will ever be found unless Casey Anthony comes out with more information.

DEP. APPLING WELLS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Is your daughter in a better place?


WELLS: Are you worried about her?

ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla returned to Florida for the search. Now he is attacking the mother he once defended for causing pain for so many people across the country.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: If you really want to delve into the mind of Casey you have to dig real deep into some shrink`s ugly book because she is an ugly minded little person.


GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150.

Mark, that was quite a search. It`s been going on since Saturday. How many people were searching?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, initially they had hoped 5,000 people would come out and search. They got about 1500 on Saturday. That dwindled to about.

GRACE: I was told over 2,000 volunteers, bounty hunters and searchers showed up from all across the country.

WILLIAMS: That was over a two-day period of time, Nancy. That.

GRACE: That`s a lot of people, Mark Williams, 2,000 people?

WILLIAMS: It is. It is a lot of people. They had 132 places to look at. They broke it down into a one-mile square grid and they went out there. They found a lot of animal bones but no remains of Casey.

Now, Leonard Padilla has taken up the search for little Caylee Anthony. EquuSearch and Tim Miller is going to the Carolinas because he has other business up there.

GRACE: I understand, Mark Williams, that EquuSearch searchers staying, although Tim Miller is going to the Carolinas. EquuSearch searchers are staying along as well as Padilla and his bunch.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes. OK. And Mandy Albritton from EquuSearch is probably in town. I have not talked to her yet. But I have talked to Leonard Padilla and today he sent two divers into the Econ River on the strength of a picture that was taken back in August during a search.

It was a picture of a makeshift cross on a tree. In that picture, Nancy, it showed that there were some arts and crafts that made up that cross, the same type of arts and crafts that were found in Casey Anthony`s room, discovered there by one of Mr. Padilla`s associates.

So that`s why he put them into the Econ River today. It was very murky and they did not come up with anything.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping to search for Caylee Anthony, first posted that $500,000 bond to set the tot mom free, later came off that bond, tell me about the search this weekend, Leonard.

PADILLA: Well, as Mark stated, that`s what triggered it, when we found the picture Thursday and we followed it up by finding the small bead at the base of that tree where the cross is no longer hanging.

And then we got to thinking past the point of she parked there on the 25th in the morning, turned her phone off. It was off for four hours. And we put the divers in the water. But it`s a foot and a half to two foot of sludge. It`s like a garbage dump out there with all the stuff in the -- in the Econ River and it`s just -- they worked at it for four or five hours but it`s just impossible to find anything in there.

GRACE: To renowned medical examiner and author, Dr. Joshua Perper, joining us tonight. Doctor, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Doctor, if a body had been in that river all these months, what would you expect to find?

PERPER: Well, there might be some soft tissue but it would be very advanced in decomposition which would make it virtually impossible to determine the nature of soft tissue injuries.

If there are bone fractures, that`s different but in my opinion the body probably is not floating now because this kind of very bad smell in the car indicated there was a decomposed body there probably more than two days and she had -- whoever was in the car -- sufficient time to transport it in another state.

GRACE: To Dr. Perper, again, does water, such as in this river, accelerate or slow decomposition of the human body?

PERPER: Well, the decomposition rate is faster on the ground and it`s slower in water and it`s slowest in the ground. So it`s a middle stage of (INAUDIBLE) of decomposition. But, again, there`s already quite a lot of time, so the decomposition even in water would be quite advanced and the body is never found.

GRACE: And Dr. Perper, , over 2,000 searchers are searching for little Caylee this weekend. If she were above the ground, or buried in a shallow grave, what would you expect to find in those circumstances?

PERPER: Well, it depends how deep she is buried. Probably she`s not buried very deep. Again, there would be the decomposition, which would make the examination and evaluation of the wounds very difficult but it would be better than finding her on the surface of the ground or in the water.

GRACE: Natisha Lance is joining us in Orlando. She was at the search all weekend.

Tell me about the search, Natisha.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they were able to clear 23 of these 132 areas that Mark Williams was talking about and they were searching that 200-square-mile once again, Nancy. They were searching Moss Park, J. Blanchard Park, wooded areas near the Anthony home as well as wooded areas near the Orlando airport.

Now, today they covered another, smaller area, which was the Econ trail, which is near Highway 417. And once again, like Mark Williams was saying, members of EquuSearch will be going on to North Carolina but they are still planning to come back and continue the search for Caylee.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV -- Kathi, this is a very long and exhaustive search. What do you believe is the next step?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, investigators did not join this dive today. They were supporting EquuSearch in its search. But I`m hearing that -- there`s a good chance that her body won`t be found after all of this time.

And as Tim Miller said, he`s hoping for more information from Casey before they know where to go next. If EquuSearch comes back with volunteers they may try to cover the rest of these areas they didn`t get to. But it`s been a long time.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter searching for Caylee, what were the conditions of the search? What was it like out there searching this weekend?

PADILLA: Well, the conditions are tough. The volunteers really have to struggle through the brush. It`s just -- it`s just thick. It`s dry, the ground is dry. But I`m telling you, the tickets are very, very thick and the -- the places they chose are just, you know -- it`s just very difficult.

Now the dive that we did today is completely different, because it was just in the water there, 12 foot offshore, which made it a lot easier but the water was very cold and murky.


GRACE: The search taking up the entire weekend with over 2,000 searchers for little Caylee. The search goes on.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping to search for her, you`ve taken a lot of heat for searching for Caylee which I do not understand. You`re doing more than a lot of people are doing.

PADILLA: That`s just me. You know I told people I draw a lot of heat no matter what I do.

GRACE: But why? Heat for what? What did you allegedly do wrong?

PADILLA: Well, according to Cindy her granddaughter`s alive and I`m letting people think that she`s dead by conducting a search for a body rather than a live person.

GRACE: But what about that indictment for murder one? Doesn`t that sway people to believe the little girl has passed away?

PADILLA: She says -- she says the FBI and Orange County don`t know what they`re talking about that her granddaughter is alive. And the kid from -- well, the guy from kid finders or whatever it is has got them convinced to keep this thing going.

GRACE: OK. To Alex Sanchez, Lauren Lake and Susan Moss, very quickly.

Lauren Lake, if they do not find Caylee`s remains ever, what will that mean for the case?

LAKE: Well, that means it helps the defense. It helps the defense if Casey actually did it because it can`t tie together a lot of the circumstantial evidence. But if the body would prove otherwise, that someone else did it, then it hurts the defense.

GRACE: Alex?

SANCHEZ: Yes, I mean, the failure of that massive group to locate that child is a victory for the defense. And it keeps hope alive that that child is possibly out there somewhere and the jury is going to made aware of that.

GRACE: Susan Moss?

MOSS: It doesn`t affect the case, forward march.

GRACE: I want to thank our attorneys, Susan Moss, Lauren Lake, Alex Sanchez, and all our other guests.

But let`s stop now and remember Marine Lance Corporal James Kimple, 21, killed, Carroll, Ohio, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Purple Heart. Loved books and serving his family and country. Trained in a military career.

Leaves behind mom and stepdad, Kate and John, two brothers, widow Amber, three children.

James Kimple, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.