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Nancy Grace

George Anthony Describes Smell of Dead Body in Daughter Casey`s Trunk

Aired November 24, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 23 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. Just released, FBI questioning grandparents George and Cindy Anthony, hours and hours, and all caught on videotape. The feds take the Anthonys step-by-step through the day Caylee goes missing, their reaction to the smell of human decomposition in the tot mom`s trunk, all the way to mom Casey stealing from her toddler`s own piggy bank.

In their own words, we hear the Anthonys wrestling with theories about what happened to Caylee, new details about the mysterious nanny the tot mom accuses of kidnapping the 2-year-old, and even more of mom Casey`s web of lies, and tot mom Casey Anthony caught red-handed stealing from everybody - - parents, friends, even stealing from Caylee`s piggy bank and college savings, grandparents, great-grandparents. Finally, the grandparents` response? They insist they were, quote, "ambushed" by the FBI.

The defense goes to court to fight the gag order. And tonight, we finally obtain the defense witness list. This as the search for Caylee goes on. And another bombshell. Has there been another alleged sighting of the little girl. Tonight, where is Caylee?



GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We walk through a particular gate where this public lot`s at. I got within three feet of my daughter`s car and -- the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this -- in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before. It smelled like a decomposed body. I`m being very straight with you guys.


GEORGE ANTHONY: I got a sick feeling for a second because the car was all closed up, and if you`re from me to you away from it, you can smell an odor. You don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would agree with you. And you know this because?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Being a deputy sheriff for all the years I was, I have investigated...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had exposure to decomposing bodies?


I don`t know why I stuck the key in the ignition. I started to turn it, and I`m, like, No, George, you can`t do this. You`re doing this wrong. I looked in the back seat a little bit more. I didn`t see anything. I looked around as quick as I could. I scanned. I mean, I`m looking for everything.

And I told the guy, I said, Can you walk around with me to the rear of the car? He says, Why? And I said, Man, there is a smell in this car, and I`ve just got to know where it`s coming from. And as I walked around the back of that car, before I stuck the key in it, I did whisper to myself, I hope it`s not my daughter or my granddaughter. I felt that in my heart. I felt that. I`m, like, Please don`t let it be either one of them.

I went around the driver`s side, the guy was almost as close to you and I, walking right behind me. And as I opened up the door, that smell took my breath away. I mean, it was that strong. I reached over to the passenger door and went like this, and had to open the passenger door because I had to let this thing vent for a little because, I mean, it was just that overpowering.


GRACE: Hours and hours of FBI interrogation of grandparents Cindy and George Anthony. Today they say that they were ambushed.

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.


GEORGE ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection that I had. And I know she has been taking money from my granddaughter`s bank because I`m always dropping a buck, 5 bucks, quarters. You know, one day you go in there and that bank is heavy. And it`s a good-size piggy bank. And you know you put money in there. You know it. There`s nothing.

She`s taken money from my wife`s purse...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You started to...

GEORGE ANTHONY: Twenty dollars, forty dollars, maybe more than that at a time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You started to use the word there that you hesitated in -- you started to say -- you stopped.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that how you feel about it or is that how your wife feels about it?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any doubt in your mind that`s what she was doing?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No because we have all the information that she`s done it.


GEORGE ANTHONY: Three deposit slips that she had -- she had forged a deposit slip for $4,400.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With your mother`s name -- with her mother`s name on it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, with our account.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever hear Caylee talk about Zanny?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No. No. Because, as a matter of fact, we didn`t even bring up Zanny`s name. Our granddaughter is a pretty bright little girl. No, she never...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never said Zanny?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never talked about her nanny?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, never said anything in those regards whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think is the more likely scenario? Do you think it`s more likely that -- as she says, Zanny knocked her to the ground and took Caylee? Or do you think it`s more likely that the -- and I understand completely. I`m asking for a gut reaction. I`m not asking because you know anything, but...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard for us, considering the circumstances surrounding what`s going on...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... to go with a theory where she`s telling us who these people are and none of them are identifiable. None of her family has ever met her nanny.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None of her friends outside of the new friends -- actually, none of the new friends know who Zanny is.



GRACE: Hours and hours of videotaped questioning by the FBI of George and Cindy Anthony just released. Their response? They say they were ambushed by the feds. We are taking your calls live.

Out to Mark Williams WNDB Newstalk. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: ... FBI videos that have been released by the FBI, the interviews of George and Cindy Anthony, George admits on those videos that when he got to the tow yard, he could smell that smell of death, the odor coming from the car. He says it`s the worst odor you could ever expect in your lifetime, and he says you can`t forget that odor. Secondly, the video...

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Let`s take a listen to what Mark Williams just described. Everybody, we`re taking your calls live, and we are talking about in the last hours, the FBI releases hours of interrogation tapes of George and Cindy Anthony. The two of them tell very, very different stories. Take a listen.


GEORGE ANTHONY: As I open up the trunk, I was glad because there was -- my daughter or my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.


GEORGE ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It was a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi -- it was almost transparent. Inside of it, I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was. But there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong. Also inside that container was an Arm `n Hammer liquid laundry detergent bottle stuck inside of it.


GEORGE ANTHONY: I did not touch it. The guy reached inside and he says, Oh, this is where your smell is coming from, and took it real quick and dumped it, dropped it in a dumpster which was probably 20 or 30 feet away from where we were at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In describing where the pizza bag -- the trash bag with the pizza was, where was it, left or right? Inside...

GEORGE ANTHONY: OK, this is the trunk of the car. Over where the left rear taillight`s at. The bag was closer to that taillight area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left rear taillight?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. That`s where I found that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And the stain was -- if this is the left rear taillight down here...

GEORGE ANTHONY: The stain was almost directly right in the center because that`s where the spare tire cover and stuff is. That`s where the spare tire`s at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the best of your knowledge, did you ask the tow truck driver or anybody that was on the lot that day had they been in the car or done anything to the car? You didn`t ask that?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I didn`t even ask. And as a matter of fact -- I`m crazy. I wish in some ways I just would have left it the way it was. But I couldn`t stand the smell. I mean, even the pizza had a particular odor to it that was just -- whew. It would take you back. But this specific odor...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Distinct smell outside...

GEORGE ANTHONY: It was a totally different smell. It`s -- garbage and this other decomposition smell are totally different. That`s very distinguishable.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girl that you described to me earlier on the general assessment is a very well-rounded, well-adjusted, intelligent young lady.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what she`s asking to you believe at this point -- and I`m just trying -- I`m throwing it out there objectively. What she`s asking to you believe at this point is that she`s acted so far out of character that she now believes that somebody has her child and is going to do harm not only to the child or her but now to the family, but she doesn`t want to tell anybody, but she wants to give us clues to go find them.


GRACE: To Natisha Lance, on the story from the get-go. Natisha, what has been the Anthonys` response to the release of these FBI questioning tapes?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, according to reports, Nancy, they have said that they feel like they were ambushed, they were not aware that they were being videotaped give whatsoever, and they said that this speaks volumes to that the sheriff`s office is no longer looking for Caylee. But they said that`s OK because they`re still looking for Caylee. But they think the sheriff`s office is more interested in building a case against Casey.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. With us, family law attorney Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, veteran defense attorney, and Kirby Clements, former prosecutor turned defense attorney joining us out of Atlanta. Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She stole money from Caylee`s piggy bank? What was she, buying chloroform with nickels? This is outrageous. They say that she was -- this family has been ambushed. Well, they`ve been ambushed with the truth, and the truth is, is that we should be looking for a body and we should be preparing for this trial.

GRACE: Alex Sanchez, the grandparents say they were ambushed. Are the feds under any duty to tell potential witnesses they are being videotaped?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they may not be under any duty, but I can see why the Anthonys feel that they were ambushed. Why is this tape being released? If the prosecution is so concerned that the general public is going to be polluted by improper information, how come they didn`t go to court and try to prevent this information from coming out?

GRACE: You know, Alex, I really appreciate that. But to you, Kirby Clements -- Kirby Clements, off what Sanchez just said, what tainted information? It`s their statements. And why are they -- I understand they didn`t realize the tapes were going to be made public. But it seems to me that they would be more worried about the smell of death in the car, more than the tapes being made public.

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s true. But at the same time, you have to factor in that they`re also claiming that they believe this little girl is alive. And they feel as though that the police are not doing their job in looking for this girl and trying to follow up on these leads of this child has been spotted elsewhere. So releasing this information now and -- just serves to create more confusion and it makes them think they`re not...

GRACE: Confusion? Who? What confused? I`m not confused. Are you confused, Kirby?

CLEMENTS: Well, at this point, they haven`t found a body. At this point...

GRACE: So what are you confused about, Kirby?

CLEMENTS: I`m confused, like the police are confused. They haven`t come forward with a body, with definitive evidence to show us exactly what took place, how this child died...

GRACE: Oh, really? Because they found evidence of human decomposition in the back of that trunk, and Caylee`s gone. I believe you can still add two plus two and get four, Kirby.

CLEMENTS: Well, that doesn`t mean that the mother killed her, and that`s the point. She`s on trial for killing the child.

GRACE: Well put. Well put.

Everyone, quickly, program note. This Thursday night, a special NANCY GRACE INVESTIGATES, in-depth look at the critical first 24 hours after Caylee reported missing. Then Friday, the critical first 30 days of the Caylee Anthony investigation.



CINDY ANTHONY: Because I asked her, I said, Who are you protecting? Are you protecting Caylee? Yes. Are you protecting me? Yes. Are you protecting your dad? Yes. Are you protecting your brother? Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Protecting from what?

CINDY ANTHONY: And that`s what I specifically asked her. I asked her, Are you protecting from our feelings being hurt, from something bad happening, you know, that you don`t think we can handle it? And she says, No, it`s not emotional. She says, It`s physical.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you say she says you`re too upset, what were you upset about that she noticed?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, number one is where we believed our daughter was at, our granddaughter, she`s not there. She can`t be in Jacksonville if her car`s here in Orlando. That`s impossible. Why did it take us so long to find all this information out? I mean, that`s 15 days, you know? If we could have got a call from these guys on the 30th, on July 1, we could have been further into all this kind of stuff than we`re at right now. That was very upsetting to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the smell upset you, as well?



GRACE: Bombshell tonight. Hours and hours of FBI interrogation of George and Cindy Anthony have just been released. The Anthonys say they were ambushed by the FBI. We are taking your calls live. Also tonight, we get, finally, the defense witness list. To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Who`s on the list?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Three people. One of them you`ll know from your show, Dr. Koby (ph). Another one is Dr. Henry Lee, a very famous guy from the O.J. Simpson trial. And then there`s another man named Larry Daniel. He`s a computer forensics specialist and he`s going to be there, analyzing the computer forensics on the stuff that was found on the computer and also cell phone records.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Drew, Drew Petrimoulx, where are all the people that tot mom Casey Anthony says she told Caylee was missing?

PETRIMOULX: Right. Well, I mean, you know that you can add to these lists, you know...


PETRIMOULX: ... before the trial starts. And this is weird because there`s only three people on her list. But if you look over at the state attorney`s list, there`s over 83 witnesses that will be coming, including 34 from the sheriff`s office. So the size of the lists of both these teams is, you know, hugely different.

GRACE: Well, let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, Kirby Clements. Alex Sanchez, where are all the witnesses?

SANCHEZ: Well, look, the defense has made a decision that the only legitimate defense to take in this case is a forensic defense. What are they going to call, character witnesses on behalf of Caylee -- Casey? That`s highly unlikely.

GRACE: No. What about all the witnesses they claimed they had that she made outcry to?

SANCHEZ: Right. But once...

GRACE: Outcry is, everyone, a term of art that refers to a witness to whom a victim first tells their story or a witness first tells their story. Where are they?

SANCHEZ: Yes. An outcry witness usually doesn`t apply in a case like this. It may apply in, let`s say, a rape case, but not in a case like this.

GRACE: No, Alex. Actually, outcry witness is now expanded to all types of cases, when you first tell someone what happened. For instance, all the people she said she told, My daughter is missing. Where are they?

SANCHEZ: Well, they`ve determined that they`re not going to take that route. It`s a forensic defense, attack all the forensic evidence in the case...

GRACE: You know what, Alex?

SANCHEZ: ... call in the great evidence -- the great experts and try to destroy the prosecution`s case.

GRACE: You know what, Alex? Contrary to what many people may believe after hearing what you just said, I respect you because you said that with such a straight face. You could actually argue that to a jury.

To you, Kirby Clements. The kicker is the state, the prosecutor, cannot comment in front of the jury about the defense`s failure to call these witnesses. Why? It is tantamount to commenting on the right to remain silent. What about that?

CLEMENTS: I think it`s a great rule. That`s what the Constitution is there for. In this case, the prosecution doesn`t have a body. Why should the defense concede murder, concede death, and then try to argue, Well, let me tell you the reasons why this happened? No. They have to fight this case all the way through, and the prosecution should not be allowed to comment on the defendant`s right to remain silent.

GRACE: But Susan Moss, there is a around it. When the defense doesn`t bring all the witnesses they say they`ve got, the state cannot comment on that at trial in front of the jury unless -- until and unless the defense brings them up first. So if the defense attorney, Jose Baez, in this case mentions all these people -- Tot mom Casey Anthony said my daughter`s missing, my daughter`s missing -- then the state can say, Hey, jury, where are they?

MOSS: That`s right. It`s akin to opening up the door and allowing the prosecution in. But the truth is, it`s indisputable that the funk from the trunk smells worse than a dead skunk. There`s enough evidence here to show, through the "body farm" and the other experts, that there was a dead body decomposing in that car and that`s going to make the difference.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Erica in South Carolina. Hi, Erica.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just have to say my mother and I both watch you and we`ve loved you for years.

GRACE: Thank you, Erica in South Carolina. Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- well, on Friday, you guys mentioned -- and I think it was a good point -- that the mother and the father -- or especially the mother, Cindy -- seem to be enabling and co- dependent. But in watching the tapes, the initial tapes, they seemed more forthcoming and more truthful in the early days.

And I`m wondering if they feel guilty and are kind of overcompensating now and are in denial because of the fact of the type of careers they had? They were absentee parents a lot because nurses work 12-hour shifts, and then police officers are having long shifts. And so I`m thinking that the tot mom, Casey, she learned how to -- lying for attention-seeking at an early age. And it`s something that (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Well, you know, Erica, I think you`ve got a good point, but I don`t want to shift too much blame onto the parents because if you call them absentee parents, basically, every working parent in this country is an absentee parent. What about it, Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist out of LA?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: First of all, these parents are victims. And if we say that about them, it`s just what you said, Nancy. There are lots of families with two working parents, and their kids are not being accused of murder.

GRACE: You know what? You`re right. And Stacy, both of my parents worked really long hours, but I never considered them to be absentee parents. Stacy?

KAISER: Yes. Yes. No. I mean, they`re not absentee parents. And even if they were, that doesn`t make for children who steal and lie to police officers.


GEORGE ANTHONY: As I open up the trunk, I was glad because there was -- my daughter or my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.


GEORGE ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It was a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi -- it was almost transparent. Inside of it, I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was. But there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong. Also inside that container was an Arm `n Hammer liquid laundry detergent bottle stuck inside of it.


GEORGE ANTHONY: I did not touch it. The guy reached inside and he says, Oh, this is where your smell is coming from, and took it real quick and dumped it, dropped it in a dumpster which was probably 20 or 30 feet away from where we were at.



GRACE: In addition to hours of FBI interrogation tapes being released on George and Cindy Anthony, we also learned the defense witness list has been released. To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies." John Lucich, one of them is a computer forensics expert. What will they do with that, the defense?

JOHN LUCICH, FORMER INVESTIGATOR: Well, there`s no doubt about it. His whole job is going to be refuting the evidence that they found. He`s going to attempt to show that those searches could have been done by anybody. These investigators, I`m sure, know the computer forensics process inside and out. They`re going to take a look at e-mail that could only have been sent by Casey Anthony, send and receive, match those dates and times to the computer searches and you`re going to be able to show that Casey Anthony was on the computer at that time when those searches were being done.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am just throwing it out there because.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . that`s what she`s asking us to believe.

C. ANTHONY: I`m normally a very rational, you know, person that would think things through before I would speak.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s very evident.

C. ANTHONY: . it`s very obvious that on those 911 calls, I was scared to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) because I didn`t know.


C. ANTHONY: . what was going on and I did and said whatever I needed to do to get help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what you did.

C. ANTHONY: So you see things, anything that she`s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what you did made sense.

C. ANTHONY: But we don`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What she is doing doesn`t make sense.

C. ANTHONY: It doesn`t make sense but it would if we find Caylee. If we find Caylee and if she`s with this person, then isn`t it going to make sense that she was trying to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was giving us clues that would actually lead us to this person but all the clues that she`s given have led us away from the situation.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I had a savings account for my daughter -- for granddaughter at Wachovia Bank. I was the executor on it and my daughter was the assistant or she was like the second executor on it.

I gave her the permission -- bank to sign everything that she could go and deposit and/or take funds out if needed in an emergency, not just to take it out any time. That account was up $3, $400 and there`s maybe $5 in it right now.

I mean I had director deposit. I don`t even have that anymore because every time that I went to check on my daughter`s -- my granddaughter`s account, guess what? The money is gone.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Hours and hours of interrogation by the FBI. These tapes released of George and Cindy Anthony, caught on tape, two very, very different stories about their daughter, tot mom Casey Anthony.

Out to the lines, Deanna in Michigan. Hi, Deanna.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, I love your show. You -- I love your twins.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have twins myself. The older they get, the easier they are and the more fun they are.

GRACE: Good to know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. My question is we have pretty much proven proof that Casey was seen leaving the woods with a shovel and she borrowed a shovel but it seems to be that they`re concentrating on the swamps and the rivers.

And I`m just wondering why they`re spending so much time in the rivers when, you know, she obviously had a shovel?

GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question, Deanna in Michigan.

Let`s go out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, Sacramento, California, who is resuming the search for little Caylee.

Leonard, there were several sightings of a woman who fits Casey Anthony`s description with a shovel. We know the neighbors place her taking a shovel from them. Why are you looking in a river?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The shovel she borrowed from the neighbor she returned to the neighbor and the detectives from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office were seen carrying it in a bag, and it`s probably still sitting in the Orange County Sheriff`s Office evidence locker.

There was no sighting of her that`s valid as far as going or coming out of a forest. Casey would never step five foot into the brush. She just not geared that way. The shovel was used in the backyard that day to fish her child out of the pool after she tried to fake a drowning.

GRACE: OK. To Mark Williams of WNDB, am I to understand correctly from Padilla that the multiple sightings of a woman who fits tot mom`s description coming out of a wooded area near the Orlando International Airport, all of those have been discredited?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: From what we understand, Nancy, that is the case. I mean, you know, there`s -- this person that said that he saw a woman come out of a wooded area with a floppy hat and some sunglasses and a shovel. And that`s been about it. The reason that they`re searching.

GRACE: Well, no, hold on, because another person was in the car with him and they both saw the same thing and in addition to that, a female driver thought she saw a friend`s car and then realized that the bumper stickers didn`t match and saw a woman in that same area coming out that matched Casey Anthony`s description.

So all three of them are wrong?

WILLIAMS: I`m not saying that, but they have, obviously, discounted that for some reasoning that they have not told us about. They`re concentrating, of course, Nancy, and we`ve had this on the show before, about where those pings from the cell phone were and they`ve been, you know, close to her house, near Blanchard Park, places like that near the Orlando Airport.

GRACE: And at Orlando International Airport where, apparently, I believe you`re the one that told me that some of those sightings were near the airport.

WILLIAMS: They were near the airport. They were near some railroad tracks, from what we can gather because.

GRACE: Well, then why are they discredited?

WILLIAMS: I -- Nancy, I wish I could tell you. But obviously.

GRACE: But you agree they have been discredited.

WILLIAMS: I would say right now they have been discredited because.

GRACE: You assume they`ve been discredited.

WILLIAMS: Well, Nancy, they.

GRACE: But you don`t know they`ve been discredited?

WILLIAMS: Nancy, they have checked through 5,000 tips and leads and after that there has been really nothing coming out of that wooded area. Again, they`re searching in other areas where they had the cell phone pings.

GRACE: OK. Everybody, take a listen to what is caught on tape.


G. ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection that I had. I know she`s been taking from my granddaughter`s bank because I`m always dropping five bucks, quarters, you know, one day you go in there in that bank is heavy. I mean it`s a good sized piggybank and you know you put money in there, you know it.

There`s nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you saw a stain in the trunk?

G. ANTHONY: Yes. Probably about the size of a basketball maybe just a little bit -- not completely circular. It had some.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was -- not as certain.

G. ANTHONY: Yes -- right. To draw a particular design on it, that I couldn`t do, but I can -- I can tell you, I did stick my nose as close as I could get to it, and man, it`s a very strong odor. It`s right where the spare tire`s at -- spare time cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it where the pizza was sitting? It was not where the pizza was?

G. ANTHONY: Yes, it was more in the center of the trunk.


GRACE: Joining us right now is an exclusive guest tonight, Richard Grund, this is Jesse Grund`s father out of Orlando. Before we go to him, take a listen to this.


G. ANTHONY: Richard Grund, G-R-U-N-D. He and my wife spoke probably about 10-15 minutes last night because I was doing other things. I didn`t get a chance to call him back.

And there was a little heated discussion from Richard with my wife. My wife, I believe, handled very, very diplomatically. And he said he`s going to bring up all this stuff about our daughter being a liar and all this stuff. So I don`t know where this is all going at the moment.


GRACE: Out to Richard Grund, Jesse Grund`s father, what do you make of that?

RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: I have to tell you I was pretty shocked to be listening to this testimony and about four minutes in to hear my name mentioned and to hear -- for no reason, the FBI didn`t ask him anything, George just felt compelled to tell him about my conversation with Cindy. So I`m shocked and really disappointed in George.

GRACE: Well, under the circumstances, though, Richard, they -- can`t find their granddaughter. They think maybe their daughter`s implicated, I have to cut them some slack but what things did Casey Anthony tell you?

GRUND: Well, you know, Nancy, you may want to cut him some slack but when you have been in their living room three nights before hugging their neck telling them, look, we love you and we`ll do anything for you.

GRACE: True.

GRUND: And then you find out they`re trying to implicate your son for the sake of their daughter, I have a little hard time with that.

GRACE: Agree. Agree. What did Casey Anthony tell you?

GRUND: Casey would sit at our dinner table while she waited for Jesse to get home from work and she would just vent. She would just tell me everything what was going on in her family`s life, how much she hated her father for the gambling debts and losing $30,000 of the family`s money, not $10,000.

The fact that she thought her father was cheating on her mother. She didn`t want him to come home. She told me about, you know, a lot of the inner workings. And I`m not sure what it was that got them startled enough that they wanted to do a proactive thing and tell the FBI, but I just basically told Cindy Anthony after hearing one of their lawyers slander my son, I said that`s it. I`m just going to answer any question anybody has about you and your family.

GRACE: And tell me something, did you and George Anthony have a conversation at a prayer vigil?


GRACE: What happened?

GRUND: The second week of the prayer vigil was Sunday the 27th, I think. I had actually contacted George that morning. I was going to start calling in favors from my friends in law enforcement and military intelligence and see what I could find out, but I gave him the message and said, George, if I`m going to harm Caylee by shaking the trees, let me know.

He immediately called me up and said, look, I want to talk to you. I`ve been wanting to talk to you. We tried to meet that afternoon. Then he said why don`t you come by the prayer vigil. Well, my wife and I went to the prayer vigil and stood there for three hours while George disappeared.

Finally Lee said, look, come inside and sit down with us. George finally came out about 11:00 and walked us out to the car. I hit him with a couple of things. I said, George, what about the smell in the car? I said you know what that smell is. And he said, well, yes, it could be this. It could be that.

And I said, no, you know what that smell is. If it`s not Caylee, who is it? He goes, I don`t know. And then I asked , you know, him about Casey. And he`s finally said, look, I believe my daughter finally ripped off the wrong person. And as I was leaving I looked at him and I said, George, what has your daughter gotten herself into?

And this is after him telling me I know my daughter hasn`t had a job in two years. I know that. And he said, I don`t know what she`s got herself into.

GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. And as we go to break tonight on a happy note a very special happy anniversary to Georgia friends of the show, Arthur and Ewell Johns.

They blow away all the statistics from divorce celebrating 60 years together and still going strong.

Happy anniversary, Mr. And Mrs. Johns. You give all of us hope.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She talked about Mallory?

G. ANTHONY: Yes. Because whenever we mentioned Uncle Lee`s name -- oh we`re going to see Uncle Lee today, she said Mallory? Mallory? That was something that she.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She would associate people with.

G. ANTHONY: Right. Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . other people or things like that but you never heard her talk about Zani or Jeff or Zachary?

G. ANTHONY: Annie or any of these other friends of hers. No. I never heard my granddaughter say anything like that. Even if you ask her, did you have a good time with Zani today? There was never any brightness or anything like that come through her.


G. ANTHONY: And it`s like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no recognition on her part as far as you could tell?

G. ANTHONY: None, whatsoever.

And then you get these e-mails (INAUDIBLE) that some says there`s a $2.2 million in bank in the U.K. so I got involved in .


G. ANTHONY: I`ve fallen to that completely. I should have known better. That was stupid. Every phone number that were given to me, every address, I always followed it up with it and everything sounded legitimate and (INAUDIBLE) I got scammed.

And I have been unemployed for almost two careers because of a knee injury. I couldn`t just go back to work, I mean, I had a complete knee that was replaced.


G. ANTHONY: And it took me -- usually it takes you about a good year to get through all of that and it just -- I took the time. And we try so - - yes, we were financially pretty tight and I just -- when this came up, I tried it. This is a quick fix for us to get back on our feet, you know, to keep our house because my wife...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just the right time.


GRACE: Hours of FBI interrogation of the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, just released. They claim they were ambushed by the feds. The defense finally releases its witness list, three witnesses on that list.

We have one of those witnesses with us tonight, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Kobi, as we call him, forensic scientist of great fame actually, out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is the paid consultant to the Anthony defense team.

Dr. Kobilinsky, you are one of three. What do you plan to talk about at trial?


GRACE: What do you plan to talk about at trial?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I believe I`m going to be called to discuss the DNA results. That is my area of specialization, although I have a lot of knowledge about forensic science in general. My area is really DNA.

GRACE: Among the many, many motions filed by Baez, he is also asking for additional testing on the forensic evidence. Why?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I think the defense is reserving the right to retest the air samples. I think there are a lot of issues about admissibility and reliability and validation studies and so the defense reserves the right to test that -- those samples but they may not.

GRACE: If you tested them, where would you test them?

KOBILINSKY: That`s a very good question. There is absolutely no crime lab in the United States that does the kind of testing that was done in Oak Ridge and so we have another issue about the validation and reliability of these procedures.

GRACE: But yet, Dr. Kobilinsky, when you want to use Oak Ridge Laboratories testing methods and their results to your favor, you don`t have a problem with it. But now that you are going to disagree with it, you say their testing is unreliable.

You don`t see a problem with that?

KOBILINSKY: I`m not saying it`s unreliable. What I.

GRACE: You are.

KOBILINSKY: What I`m saying is there may be an issue of admissibility in a court of law with the rules of evidence.

GRACE: Admissibility because of what? Admissibility because of what?

KOBILINSKY: Admissibility because of lack of validation studies that this procedure is not done by any other crime lab, that we don`t have error rates. There are a lot of issues.

GRACE: Kobi, Kobi, when you say lack of validation what you mean is reliability.

KOBILINSKY: Absolutely, it refers to reliability.

GRACE: You just said you`re not saying they`re not reliable but that is what you`re saying.

KOBILINSKY: That`s correct. I am not saying it`s not reliable. I`m saying that we have to determine if these procedures.

GRACE: If it`s reliable.

KOBILINSKY: . have withstood the standards set by the state for admissibility.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls, but before we go back to calls I want to tell you about another alleged sighting of little Caylee. Let`s go back to Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150.

Mark, what can you tell me?

WILLIAMS: Well, there is a picture being circulated by the Kid Finders Network of a cell phone picture taken by.

GRACE: We`re showing it right now.

WILLIAMS: OK, of a 3-year-old -- what looks like a 3-year-old girl. She is white, she has brown hair and she`s having a great time. They say that that is a Caylee sighting. Right now the police departments are kind of not discounting it but they`re taking a look at the picture.

The person who snapped this picture tried to call a couple of agencies, waited for a couple of hours, didn`t get any response. Finally went over to the Web site known as Helpfindcaylee and that`s where they uploaded the pictures.

GRACE: You`re seeing a shot of the mall at which this photo was taken. Let`s see the shot again, Elizabeth. Another alleged sighting of little Caylee.

Do we know, Natisha Lance, whether cops have followed up on this?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Actually, Nancy, police are saying they are not looking into this tip whatsoever. All the evidence they have says that Caylee Anthony is dead and they are going along with that evidence and they feel as if it is ridiculous for the family to be putting other families through this trouble of trying to prove that their child is their child.

GRACE: What about it, Drew Petrimoulx? Is that true? Are police not following up on the tip?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. They said they`re done with these wild goose chases across the country. There have been alleged sightings, you know, in Coral Springs, down in South Florida, Gainesville, all the way up to North Carolina.

So they basically said they`re done spending their resources. You know there`s 34 cops that are going to be called in to trial. So that just goes to show you how much resources the Orange County Sheriff`s Department has spent on this case.

So you know, basically, they have other things to do. They can`t follow all these leads around. They believe that Caylee is dead.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, Kirby Clements.

Kirby, I know that all three of you have tried a lot of cases. Kirby, in this instance, the cops are damned if they do, damned if they don`t. If they follow up on the tip at trial the defense is going to say you weren`t convinced she was dead as recently as Thanksgiving 2008.

You were trying to find her alive. Weren`t you, officer? That`s what they`re going to say. If they don`t follow up on the tip, Kirby, at the -- at trial the defense is going to say but we gave you tips she was alive and you refused to follow up. Isn`t that true, officer?

Am I right, Kirby?

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely correct and quite honestly, that`s the way it ought be. I mean if you`re going to try a murder case without a body, then the defense is entitled to show, hey, maybe the child is still alive or you haven`t done enough. And it`s unfortunate for the police but that`s how it`s going to be.

GRACE: Alex?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s disgraceful that the police are not looking into some legitimate tips. That`s photograph. I mean I don`t know if it`s legitimate or not. But what is wrong with sending the police down to the local area where that photograph was taken and try to determine the identity of that child. Would that be such an imposition on the police department?

GRACE: You know what, Susan Moss, I have to agree with Sanchez on this one. Do I think it`s Caylee? No. Do I think that Caylee`s most likely dead? Yes, but I`d rather them follow through and at trial say, we did it to put the parents` minds at ease.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I`m just afraid that one juror may be hoodwinked in thinking that this little girl is still alive and vote not guilty.


G. ANTHONY: She`s dropping us little hints every once and a wile. And it`s hard to put this all together. My son`s been working on it and friends and everything you guys talked to her about what I`ve said.




G. ANTHONY: I went around the driver`s side the guy was almost as close to you and I walking right behind me and as I opened up the door that smell took my breath away. I mean it was that strong. I reached over to the passenger door and went like this, and had to open the passenger door because I had to let this thing vent for a little because, I mean, it was just that overpowering.


GRACE: The trail date is now set for January, but it looks like the defense is backing off. We don`t know what their reason for delay is.

Out to the lines, to Mary in Florida. Hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am. What`s your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I would like to know if Casey had a transponder in her car to pay for tolls around Orlando, probably she has.

GRACE: Good question. What do we know, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: We don`t believe that Casey has one in the car in the Pontiac. But there was one in Cindy Anthony`s car as well as George Anthony`s car. At one point, Casey did take Cindy Anthony`s car and that is when George Anthony had followed her and there are.

GRACE: Got it. I get where Mary is headed. She wants to find out if she can be traced to the transponder.

To B.J. in Florida, hi, B.J.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am wondering for this average American family, who is paying for these high priced defense people?

GRACE: Tell it. Tell is because Kobi ain`t cheap. What about it, Mark Williams? Who`s paying the bill?

WILLIAMS: Keeping their mouths shut on this one, Nancy. Nobody is saying anything about where the money is coming from or anything else. Now, remember, they had a licensing deal, allegedly, with NBC TV for pictures but, you know.

GRACE: Got it.

WILLIAMS: . Larry Garrison(ph), I guess, has that.

GRACE: Right.

Everybody, let`s stop our discussion and remember Army Specialist Kyle Norris, 22, Zanesville, Ohio, killed Iraq. Proud to serve his country. Loved handing out candy to Iraqi kids. Time with friends, paintball, video games.

Dreamed of proposing to his girlfriend Courtney and joining Ohio State Highway Patrol. Leaves behind parents, Neva and Wayne, brothers Michael and Sean, sister Tempest.

Kyle Norris, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special good night from New York, friends of the show, daughter of defense attorney, Alex Sanchez, Nadia.

Isn`t she a beauty? And her friends Matt. Welcome to both of you.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friends.