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Nancy Grace

Casey Anthony Defense Ignores Police Tip Collection

Aired December 08, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 25 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony insist surveillance video will reveal images of Caylee alive and well, and they are demanding legal action to get their hands on that video. What`s on the video? What will it reveal? And tonight, George and Cindy Anthony announce they`ll travel across the country to investigate another alleged sighting of 3-year-old Caylee in California.

And tonight, we learn that although the defense repeatedly accuses police of withholding evidence, it`s the defense team that has failed to show up and simply retrieve hours and hours of CDs of thousands of Caylee tips. Why? Does the defense actually believe Caylee was murdered, and therefore all of these tips, thousands of them, are useless?

And tonight, more new secretly recorded video surveillance of the tot mom behind bars, her personal visits with parents George and Cindy, brother Lee, private conversations, or so they thought. And they`re grilling her with questions about little Caylee`s disappearance. More of tot mom`s web of lies, admitting she hasn`t shed a single tear behind bars. We hear it all in her own words, her attacks on friends, acquaintances, claiming everybody`s lying but her, right down to the tot mom`s own hair stylist.

And tonight, exclusive, the high-profile lawyer who argued against the death penalty for tot mom. He`s taking your calls live. And the search gears up again. Tonight, where is Caylee?


GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We`ve got to bring you and we`ve got to bring Caylee home. And we know where you`re at. I don`t want to see you here. I don`t want you here. But...

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Yes, but in some ways, I almost feel more protected here than if I were on the outside.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, I guess there`s some truth in that. But you know, once we get that little girl home, which I hope is today, you know, the stuff with you is not going to be easy to get through, but at least we`ll have you out also. And that`s...

CASEY ANTHONY: As long as we have Caylee home, everything else with me we`ll deal with as we can. Lee made a good point. Getting Caylee home is our priority. Everything else will fall into place after that. And that`s the truth.


GRACE: It`s the truth. OK.

Also tonight, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of a young mom vanishing into thin air, Birmingham, Alabama, her 1-year-old baby boy left behind at day care. Mommy never comes to pick him up. Is there a break? Grainy surveillance video released tonight. What happened to 23-year-old Nadia Kersh?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are desperately searching for clues in the case of missing 23-year-old mother Nadia Kersh. Just released, grainy surveillance video shows the last time Nadia was seen, leaving work on her lunch break. Nadia left her job in the early afternoon to pick up her 1- year-old son from day care and hasn`t been seen since. Nadia`s car was found abandoned the next day, her purse found in a wooded area nearby. Police have conducted multiple searches in the area and are awaiting forensic test results on physical evidence found in Nadia`s car, hoping those lab tests can help crack this mystery.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. More secretly-recorded surveillance video of tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars.



CASEY ANTHONY: Just try to keep talking to the media, I guess, keep things positive, keep it focused on Caylee. That means to me the main focus.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Is there anything else that you want to say directly to me at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Just that I wish that none of this would have ever happened. I really wish that none of this would have ever happened.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, we all feel that way.


CASEY ANTHONY: You don`t have to apologize. It`s good to actually see you guys smile a little bit.

CINDY ANTHONY: Dad was out sweating, working, doing fliers and stuff. I just...


CASEY ANTHONY: I haven`t showered in two days.

CINDY ANTHONY: We got a flat tire as we were getting off the expressway. My car tire went flat.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, guess what? That happened to me!


GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. What is this about the defense allegedly sitting on hours and hours of CDs prepared by police, thousands of tips, yet they claim police are withholding evidence from them?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. They even went to court to try to get these tips, but it really amounts to a public records request. But 1,800 tips have been sitting on two CDs at the Orange County sheriff`s office for a month. And he (ph) actually interviewed with us November 5 and said he wanted these tips because if even one of them could lead them to Caylee, and they still believe she`s alive, then it was worth going through all of them, and yet he`s let them sit there a whole month.

GRACE: Kathi Belich, it seems to me that if the grandparents are claiming little Caylee is still alive and all of these tips are sitting there, it`s just a matter that their attorney or them, they won`t go pick them up? Why?

BELICH: I don`t know. There is a $980 charge. It took the sheriff`s office 50 hours to put these things together. I don`t know. Is it the money? We don`t know. The defense has given us several different reasons for not picking them up, none of which make any sense...

GRACE: What are they?

BELICH: ... but they`re still sitting there tonight...

GRACE: What are the reasons that they`re giving?

BELICH: First they said that it wasn`t what they asked for -- first they told me I was lying that they were even sitting there. Then I told them I had video of that. And then they said that they weren`t what they had asked for. But I didn`t know how they would know that if they hadn`t picked them up yet. And then the last reason we heard was that maybe the defense already knows what`s on them. And again, without having looked at them, how could they possibly know that? So...

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. In addition to just-released videotape, secretly surveillance videotapes of the tot mom meeting with her family -- they`re grilling her about questions regarding little Caylee`s disappearance -- we now find out that there are hours and hours of tips compiled by the sheriff`s office -- they`ve put them all on CD, took them about 50 hours, and a thousand bucks worth of time and energy to do this -- waiting for the defense to come pick them up, if they want to follow up on these tips. And they`ve been sitting there all this time. Yet the defense continues to claim police are withholding evidence from them.

We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers, veteran defense attorney Jason Oshins joining us out of our New York bureau, Hugo Rodriguez out of Miami, and tonight, an exclusive and special guest joining us, Terence Lenamon. He is the former attorney for Casey Anthony. He is a death penalty attorney veteran. And let me tell you something, everybody. To be a death penalty lawyer, you`ve got to have a lot of trials under your belt. He argued against the death penalty for tot mom Casey Anthony. And just Friday night, we learned the state is not seeking the death penalty.

Straight out to Jason Oshins. Jason, if there are tips on these CDs that could show Caylee`s alive, according to the defense, why won`t they go pick them up? Does this suggest to you they know Caylee`s dead, so why bother to pick up the tips?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t think that, Nancy. I think it`s very expensive and time-consuming to mount a defense. They were preoccupied with the death penalty aspect...

GRACE: What?

OSHINS: ... and dealing with that. I think they`ve just got to get to it right now, and don`t let this be more of a public spectacle than it needs to be.

GRACE: Get to it. OK. You know what? That didn`t make any sense.

OSHINS: Well, it does, Nancy. Look...

GRACE: Because if you`re racing against the clock and you think your granddaughter is alive and there are tips sitting at the sheriff`s office you want to follow up on, why are you sitting on your thumb, to put it euphemistically, and not pick them up?

OSHINS: Nancy, I think the police and the authorities, if they thought they had anything that would be of aid to them, they would have let us all know about it in some way.

GRACE: Well, they have been letting them know. Isn`t it true, Kathi Belich with WFTV, that they are sending them repeated e-mail reminders, Hey, come pick up the tips. Again, Come pick up the tips.

BELICH: That`s right. Three in early November reminding them. At one point, Jose Baez`s office said he would be by on one particular Friday at 4:30 to pick them up. He didn`t show up, no explanation, no phone call. They`re still sitting there. As of tonight at 6:00 o`clock, they were still sitting there.

GRACE: I want to go to Terence Lenamon. He is a death penalty expert. He`s a trial court veteran and the former attorney for Casey Anthony. He cannot -- so don`t ask him in a phone call -- reveal any conversations he`s had with the tot mom.

But Mr. Lenamon, it looks bad that the defense isn`t even bothering to go pick up the tips.

TERENCE LENAMON, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER ATTORNEY: Well, I think this is a situation where the defense is overloaded with a lot of information. What you have to understand, Nancy, is that these kind of cases normally take years and years to develop. And it seems like things have been running on an expedited pattern right now with the defense and the state releasing all kinds of pages of documents, thousands of pages of documents, it`s my understanding. So it`s not unusual for these things to take a while. This is a case...

GRACE: Mr. Lenamon...

LENAMON: Go ahead, Nancy.

GRACE: ... I am very, very familiar with death penalty cases.

LENAMON: Absolutely.

GRACE: And they absolutely do not always take years and years to go to trial. And also, at the get-go, it was defense attorney Jose Baez screaming for his day in court. Well, he`s got it, January 5. And apparently, the defense is going to ask for a delay.

LENAMON: Well, my understanding is that the judge is actually going to be changed. Judge Strickland (ph) is not going to be the judge on January 5. I don`t know if they notified you about that.


LENAMON: But when you have a new judge taking over, the whole situation changes, depending on what the judge`s style -- as you know, having tried a number of cases that you`ve tried, you know that depending on the judge`s style is going to dictate how the calendar runs.

GRACE: Well, you know, Terence, I can already tell you know your way around the courtroom because now you have managed to successfully blame this on a new judge coming. And you know what? You do have a point. Different judges approach cases in different ways.

But Hugo Rodriguez, that doesn`t explain why the defense hasn`t moseyed on over to the sheriff`s office and picked up all these thousands of tips.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re not Brady material. It`s not discovery. I think that they`re trying to do maybe what the police haven`t done. I can`t get excited about it, Nancy. It is not part of the discovery package. Hopefully, they`ll get to it. Hopefully, they`ll use it as part of their defense.


CINDY ANTHONY: We only have five minutes. What else do you want me to check on?

CASEY ANTHONY: I thought they were giving us extra time.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know. That`s only five minutes in this session.

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I know, and it`ll cut off when we have one minute left and then we`ll get our last minute. I`m fine.


CASEY ANTHONY: I want you guys to know that. I`m eating to the best of my ability. I miss real food.




CINDY ANTHONY: Where did you take Caylee to get her hair cut?

CASEY ANTHONY: I never took Caylee anywhere to get her hair cut. That`s why when I heard that, that was complete (DELETED). The only time Caylee`s gotten her hair cut has been at the house...


CASEY ANTHONY: ... when you did it.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know that. Who was your beautician?


CASEY ANTHONY: No one colored my hair. I did my hair last.


CASEY ANTHONY: No one has touched my head since the first week of April, after my 21st birthday last year. That was the last person that cut my hair.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m just wondering where that came from.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, exactly. I`m wondering where that came from.



CASEY ANTHONY: She`s between your age and dad`s age so she`s...


CASEY ANTHONY: Roughly, yes.

CINDY ANTHONY: Have you ever heard her sister`s name? Not Zanny`s sister, her mom`s sister`s name, Zanny`s aunt`s name?


CINDY ANTHONY: Is it possible that she could be staying with her sister -- Zanny`s mom could be staying with Zanny`s aunt in Miami?

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s a possibility. I don`t know where exactly they are in Miami or who they`re staying with, but it`s a possibility.

CINDY ANTHONY: Does Christina sound familiar to you, or Sophina?




GRACE: Here you hear the tot mom, Casey Anthony, even blaming her hair stylist. If you think back to the beginning of the investigation, recall a photo emerged of little Caylee apparently with a bruise on her face taken by a hair stylist. That was the reports we got. Here she`s saying, I haven`t been to the hair stylist. I haven`t had my hair colored, nothing. All this is a big fat lie. Well, that photo came from somewhere.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Beth in Virginia. Hi, Beth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just first want to say Merry Christmas to you and your beautiful family.

GRACE: Thank you.


GRACE: Thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... I want to know if there is no real Zenaida Gonzalez baby-sitter, who`s been taking care of Caylee all of the time that she was supposedly with that baby-sitter?

GRACE: Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Where was the baby during all this time, just at various men`s apartments?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, that`s kind of the big mystery, Nancy. Some people are saying that she was staying with Casey at various men`s apartments, her current boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, her ex-boyfriend, Ricardo Morales. And some people are saying that she was already gone by that point.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who is now searching for Caylee, originally posted the bond for the tot mom, came off that bond. What is your theory about all this time, who was keeping the little girl when the tot mom would say, She`s at the beach with the nanny, or she`s at Disney Land. Where was she, in the trunk with the chloroform?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: The baby died the night of the 15th, early hours, probably around 1:30 on the 16th. That was after the big fight, where Cindy got physical with her because she had found out she was stealing from the grandmother`s account. The baby`s been dead since 1:30, 2:00 AM on the 16th, and therefore, everything else she says as to where she was is a figment of her imagination. It`s made up. It`s a lie. Nobody saw her after that time, starting with, like I say, 1:30, 2:00 o`clock in the morning of the 16th. She`s been dead ever since.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer on the case from the beginning. Natisha, even before the date that Padilla is giving -- and his theory is not far-fetched. That`s a theory a lot of people believe. Even before then, though, the little girl had to be staying with somebody. Who was she staying with? There is no nanny.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, she did stay with a friend of Casey`s a while ago, a friend of hers, but then she had stopped staying with her. But no, there was never a nanny. So they believe that she was with Casey all that time.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go back to Terence Lenamon. Everyone, Lenamon was on this case as a death penalty expert. He has tried multiple death penalty cases. He`s had varied results. He`s won some, he`s lost some, but he`s not afraid to get in there and try a case.

Mr. Lenamon, you argued against the death penalty. You argued mitigating circumstances. What were they?

LENAMON: There was numerous mitigating circumstances that we presented to Mr. Lamar (ph), who`s the state attorney in Orange County. Among those is some of the facts that you actually have seen that come out -- had come out on your show and in the newspaper about her personality, her behavior, her sleeplessness, her reactions...

GRACE: Are you trying to say she`s insane?

LENAMON: Absolutely not insane. Insanity is not an issue in this case. My job is to present to Mr. Lamar`s office the facts and circumstances as they exist in a light most favorable to him, should she get convicted. And that`s the approach I used.

GRACE: Mrs. Lenamon -- Mr. Lenamon, have you seen the photos of tot mom dancing in a mini-skirt and a push-up bra in the days after little Caylee -- Casey -- after little Caylee went missing? It hardly suggests that she`s having a depression or any type of a mental illness.

LENAMON: Well, I disagree with you, Nancy. I think if you`re familiar with bipolar disorder...

GRACE: I`m very familiar.

LENAMON: ... mania is symptomatic of someone who is not sleeping, who`s acting irrationally, who`s spending a lot of money, and whose brain thought process is different from ours. And I think that that could explain some of the things that were going on in Miss Anthony`s world at this time.

GRACE: Interesting because those are the symptoms of bipolar.

To Jason Oshins, defense attorney. Bipolar is in no way -- while Lenamon is correct, she exhibits some of those characteristics, she`s never been diagnosed as bipolar. Bipolar is not a mental defect defense and it is not insanity. Fifty percent of the people in Manhattan claim they`re bipolar.

OSHINS: It`s probably true.

GRACE: And it`s probably true! Can you blame them?

OSHINS: No, I don`t. But again, I don`t think that`s really, you know, the issue we`re talking about. We`re narrowing it down to mitigating circumstances on a death sentence. I think that`s really where the focus is. I don`t think it was in the state`s interest to try this as a death penalty case.

GRACE: Not what I asked you, but thank you for the sermon...

OSHINS: You`re welcome.

GRACE: ... Pastor Oshins.

Out to the lines. Bonnie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`m glad to get through finally.

GRACE: And I`m glad to hear from you finally. I`ve been waiting to talk to you.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, when Cindy was asking Casey last week if Zenaida had baby-sat anyone else, Casey mentioned Jeff. And Cindy said, Oh, she babysat Anabelle (ph), and Casey said yes. My question is, did the police question this Jeff or an Anabelle?

GRACE: Oh, yes, they did. You`re referring to Jeff Hopkins. They did question him. Zanny the nanny never baby-sat for Anabelle. In fact, he had never heard of Zenaida Gonzalez.



CASEY ANTHONY: Listen, people like Tara (ph), people like Jesse (ph), who are maybe trying to help, even Christina, God bless her, don`t know what the hell they`re talking about. They may have talked to me within the last few months or seen me within the last, oh, I don`t know, year, and will say, Oh, yes, this was during this such-and-such time, because they`re trying to help me. Well, Mom, this is why stuff`s getting misconstrued or just getting put in my mouth.


GRACE: Everybody`s lying but her, according to the tot mom, Casey Anthony. Just released, a grainy surveillance video secretly recorded from behind bars.

To Dr. Belisa Vranich, psychologist in New York City. Dr. Vranich, thank you for being with us. Isn`t it a big red flag, a red bell of alarm when you believe everybody is out to get you, everybody is lying on you and you`re the only one telling the truth?

BELISA VRANICH, PSYCHOLOGIST: She`s trying to take the focus off herself. And she said it herself, which is, Focus on Caylee, which means, Take the focus off me. It`s very clear.

GRACE: And what do you make of her demeanor?

VRANICH: Her demeanor is really not of a mom who`s devastated. Her child has been gone now, what, six months? This is not a devastated mom. This is a defiant adolescent.



GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: You know, I just had a little analogy of our family.


G. ANTHONY: Think of me as the fountain. Think of dad. The next finger, you know, your index finger is your mom. You know, she likes to point, just like Caylee.

C. ANTHONY: Yes, but.

G. ANTHONY: And the middle finger is -- OK, the middle finger (INAUDIBLE). I`m looking at size of the family. You know, and the next finger after that is going to be Lee, that`s going to be you, and then finally, the little pinky, that`s Caylee.

So think of that -- think of your hand and say, this is us. This is the family that loves each other and cares, and needs to be together. And -- we`re missing two fingers. As silly as this sounds, as silly as it sounds.

C. ANTHONY: I know.

G. ANTHONY: But we have you here, we know you`re here, but it`s not the same.

C. ANTHONY: I know it`s not the same. It`s just like I have you guys with me, but it`s not the same.

I guess a certain lady that came forward on the news, her -- son were at the airport, said they saw Caylee, spoke to Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Right. And she said her name was Caylee Marie Anthony.

C. ANTHONY: Do you have any more information on that?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes. But, again, the sheriff`s department is telling us they`re fully investigating that.

C. ANTHONY: Well, I want someone outside of the sheriff`s department looking into these things. I mean, I want Lee to look into stuff. I want you guys to look into stuff, I want the state to look into stuff. I don`t -- I just want.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re looking -- we`re trying to request those videotapes from the Orlando airport.


CINDY ANTHONY: I was with Jose today when he requested that.

C. ANTHONY: OK. Have you spoken to her yourself?

CINDY ANTHONY: Oh, she contacted me. She calls me every day.


CINDY ANTHONY: Three or four times a day.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: The grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony insist there is existing video that will prove little Caylee is alive.

To Kathi Belich with WFTV, what is the video that they are seeking to obtain?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: From what I understand, they`re trying to get videos from a mall here in Orlando, from an auto shop store, and possibly some other businesses where they say people have claimed that they have seen Caylee alive.

Investigators are not interested in those videotapes, but they`ve also called the businesses, saying we don`t want them, but we also don`t want to stop you from releasing them to the Anthonys, but I think the Anthonys are having trouble still getting those videos from those businesses. And I think they`re trying to move forward with subpoenas.

As of the end of today, we saw nothing filed with the Orange County Clerk of Courts as far as getting any subpoenas, but that`s what the defense claims they`re going to do.

GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Jason Oshins, New York, Hugo Rodriguez, Miami. And exclusively joining us tonight, Terence Lenamon, veteran death penalty defense lawyer, who was on the Anthony defense team, death penalty off the table now.

You know, Hugo, if you could, just give me a straight answer on this, all right? Now, for all of the years that I prosecuted, all the defense has to do is get a form subpoena, you fill in the indictment number, and you write what you need.

It`s a subpoena duces tecum for a document or a saying and you give it to the business, and they give you the video. What`s the problem?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: No problem. You`re correct. I have -- maybe Terry can answer this question. I don`t know if she`s been found indigent for costs, hence, it has to be requested through the court.

I don`t know the answer. But you`re correct. They can issue a subpoena to any third party. Then it can be litigated either by the custodian of record, or if the state wants to come in and object. But they can issue their own subpoenas.

GRACE: What about it, Terrence?

TERENCE LENAMON, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY, ARGUED AGAINST DEATH: Well, Nancy, actually I know Georgia is a little different than Florida. In Florida, in criminal cases, you have to get permission from the court, in state court.

I know Hugo does a lot of federal court, but in state court, you have to get permission from the court to issue a subpoena duces tecum, so that`s probably the procedure they`re following. And.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this. Have they asked the court for permission?

LENAMON: I can`t answer that. You know, my involvement has been specifically dealing with Mr. Lamar`s office on the issue of the death penalty, and I`m very grateful that he decided not to seek the death penalty. But I haven`t been involved with Mr. Baez in that aspect of the case.


G. ANTHONY: I want to be able to reach out and hug you and give you the -- you know, the big papa Joe hug. But, you know, we`ve got to get that little girl back any way we can. And we`re doing everything we can.

C. ANTHONY: My only concern -- I gave Lee a statement. I want him to speak to whoever in the media, give them a statement specifically from me. He is going to give them an exact quote. She is my only concern. Next to Caylee, it`s you guys.

CINDY ANTHONY: How about Jesse? He has been real close. Is there anything you want me to tell Jesse?

C. ANTHONY: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible. I`m saying that wholeheartedly, and as calmly as possible.


C. ANTHONY: I don`t know how much I trust him right now. And I even told Lee that. Lee is going to investigate a few people for me. I -- in my gut, I don`t know if I can trust him.

CINDY ANTHONY: Is there any particular day, for sure, that you know we need to track this back to?

C. ANTHONY: As far as what, mom? What specifically?

CINDY ANTHONY: The last day you saw Caylee.

C. ANTHONY: The 16th.

CINDY ANTHONY: Now, I thought Tara said her and Caylee spoke on the phone on the -- that week.


CINDY ANTHONY: Tara from Michigan.

C. ANTHONY: You mean Mark`s psycho ex-wife Tara.


C. ANTHONY: She has not even spoken to me since probably the end of May. At least.


GRACE: So there you hear even more people that the tot mom doesn`t trust. They`re all psycho, they`re all lying about her.

Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, I just heard Terence Lenamon explain to me that the procedure is pretty much the same in a lot of jurisdictions. But in Florida, you have to get the OK from the judge to issue that subpoena.

So has the defense gone to the judge and said, we need these videos to show Caylee`s alive?

BELICH: Not that we know of. I checked today with the clerk of courts. You know, I tried to find the judge. The judge`s courtroom was dark. The spokesman for the court administration here in Orange County has said she knows nothing about this.

I suppose he could have gone -- I don`t even know if he had to go to the same judge that`s been handling this case. But there is no indication.

GRACE: So bottom line, there`s nothing in the record that any of these videos have been requested that the Anthonys insist will prove Caylee is alive. OK.

I want to go back to Terence Lenamon. Terrence, what can you tell me -- you mentioned the judges have changed. Why? And who is the new judge?

LENAMON: Yes, it`s not unusual for judges to rotate out from criminal to civil and vice versa, depending on what jurisdiction it is. In Orange County, my understanding is that they -- rotate out into different branches from civil to criminal.

I`m not familiar with the name of the new judge. Again, I know that Strickland was leaving. I know that, because I`ve had a conversation with the prosecutor and Mr. Baez about this when I was first brought in on the case.

So all of the parties are aware that this is going to happen. It`s just the normal procedure that is followed.

GRACE: To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies," here`s the deal, Lucich. They claim these businesses, malls, et cetera, have video that will show Caylee on the video. They haven`t gone to the court to get the OK on the subpoenas, to get the video.

It`s very, very simple procedure. You and I know that most businesses tape over -- over after about seven days, max. So the fact that they`re not going to get the video, what are they trying to do, set it up for trial? And claim, here`s little Caylee? But we don`t have the video?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": They have so many sightings of this little girl out in California, down in Florida, out in Oklahoma. The only way this little girl could be in all that places in such a short amount of time is if Captain Kirk himself was beaming her around from the deck of the Star Ship Enterprise.

That`s the absolute only way. Bombshell. Guess what? This little girl is not alive, and they are just all about tactics. This is not about -- this is not about sightings. It`s not sightings at all.

GRACE: And very quickly, to Dr. Michael Bell, out of Palm Beach, he`s the chief medical examiner there. A search is going to be led by Leonard Padilla, very soon, for little Caylee. If her remains were found, what would a volunteer find at this time?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: At this time, next to nothing. Maybe some bones, some -- some soft tissue, not much else.

GRACE: And back to Natisha Lance, our producer on the case. I understand the Anthonys are headed to California. Why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They`re going there to do an interview, and also while they are there, they`re planning to follow up on some tips that have come in there as far back as July.

They said that some of these tips are put on the back burner and now they`re going to investigate them fully once they get out there.

GRACE: And to Nikki Pierce with WDBO, are these alleged sightings of Caylee?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Are they are alleged sightings of Caylee, and they`re going to investigate those when they go out there to do a media blitz. But they won`t give us any information. Their spokesman says that they`re going to wait until they get more information, until they can find -- determine its credibility on their own.


CINDY ANTHONY: Have you spoken with the psychologist or psychiatrist yet?

C. ANTHONY: Every single day.


C. ANTHONY: That`s who I was talking to when I was sitting at the table.

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you able to really speak with her, or is that recorded?

C. ANTHONY: No, it`s not recorded.

CINDY ANTHONY: So do you feel like you can open up to her?


CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Understood.

C. ANTHONY: We`ve talked about how I feel about things, but I`m not opening up to someone that I don`t know. The only person that I have would be Jose. I mean, for obvious reasons. He`s someone that I -- I know that I need to trust. That I`ve started to trust.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police have just released grainy surveillance video showing missing mom Nadia Kersh the last time she was seen. In the video Nadia is seen leaving her job at a local market and is on her way to pick up her 1-year-old son from daycare. Nadia never made it to the daycare center.

Police later found her car abandoned, along with her purse which was found in a wooded area close by. Investigators are anxiously awaiting test results from the FBI lab in Quantico, hoping that forensic testing for physical evidence found in Nadia`s car can lead to an arrest in this case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are the last images we have of 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. You`re watching the young mom leave on her lunch break from Tria market last Monday, just after 1:00. Kersh hasn`t been seen since. Police have recovered her car in west Birmingham, her purse at a nearby railroad tracks.

Detectives have identified a 26-year-old male suspect from Irondale. So far, there is not enough evidence to charge him. Investigators have shifted off what they are calling a good deal of physical evidence to the FBI crime lab in Quantico for processing.


GRACE: The little boy left in daycare. His mommy never came to pick him up. This is unlike anything Nadia Kersh has ever done before. The search still on for the 23-year-old out of Birmingham, Alabama.

To Paul Finebaum from WJOX AM 690, Paul, a suspect? what happened? What -- why did he get let loose?

PAUL FINEBAUM, TALK SHOW HOST, WJOX AM 690: That`s a great question, Nancy. And right now, everyone here is -- they`re anxiously awaiting the DNA evidence from the FBI lab in Quantico. That`s one thing that`s everyone just.

GRACE: What DNA evidence?

FINEBAUM: And that`s another thing as well and this is more psychological. Beth Holloway, Natalie`s mom, has joined the search and that has really embolden a lot of people here.

GRACE: You are seeing video of Nadia`s graduation from Victory Christian Academy in Florida.

To Nancy Kersh, a special guest joining us tonight. This is Nadia`s mother.

Miss Kersh, what are they talking about? A suspect was apprehended and released?

NANCY KERSH, MOTHER OF MISSING MOM, NADIA KERSH: Yes. They didn`t have enough evidence to hold him at the time. But as the days go by, there`s more and more forensic evidence coming in, and they`re slowly building that puzzle to really have a strong case, so that they will be able to charge the suspect.

GRACE: Let me ask you, Miss Kersh, what DNA evidence, to what DNA evidence are they referring?

KERSH: From what I understand, there`s -- I don`t know exactly from where it is from. But I understand that there are trace amounts of DNA evidence that they did send up to the FBI.

GRACE: They must have been found in the car.

KERSH: It may have been found in the car.

GRACE: With me is the mother of Nadia Kersh. She left her little boy in daycare, went to work. She never picked him up.

Miss Kersh, tell the viewers who are unfamiliar with the story what happened.

KERSH: Nadia is a very dedicated worker, and she is a very dedicated mom. The pictures that she sent me over time, and the last batch of pictures she sent me were back in May, when we were still in Guam.

And each of those photos -- and there were, oh, gosh, 15, 16 of them, there were photos of her and our grandson. And as we were looking through those to try to have a picture of just Nadia, I said Nadia always had her son with her.

And so she was a dedicated mom. She brought him everywhere. And her friends will attest to that, as well. She just.

GRACE: Where is the little boy tonight?

KERSH: He`s still with a very close friend of Nadia`s. We`re not in a position yet to take him, because we live out of state, we have to meet Alabama requirements, and that includes background checks, home study, that kind of thing.

GRACE: Right. Right.

KERSH: So that takes a while. They said normally, that`s..

GRACE: With me.

KERSH: Go ahead.

GRACE: With me is Nadia`s mother, everyone.

Nadia, 23 years old, 5`3", about 115 pounds, chestnut hair, hazel eyes. Take a look. She never picked up her 1-year-old little boy from daycare. Newly-released surveillance video shows her leaving on her lunch break.

Let`s take a look at that again, Elizabeth. Her car was found abandoned, her purse found later on railroad tracks nearby. Evidence does suggest foul play. No sign of the 23-year-old girl.

I want to go back to John Lucich, former investigator, and author of "Cyber Lies." The family is considering bringing in their own private investigator, like you. What would that bring to the table? What could you do that say the police can`t do?

LUCICH: OK, well, first of all, I`m a former criminal investigator, not a private investigator. But I would say leave it up to the cops. The cops have a lot more resources available at their ability. It`s easier for them to get a subpoena, and guess what, if you don`t give that stuff over they come out and pick you up.

So they have a lot more bite to their, to their investigation. A private investigator may just fumble over everything. I would leave it at this early stages in the hands of the cops for right now.

GRACE: To Paul Finebaum with WJOX AM 690, where is the baby`s daddy? Who is he? Has he been ruled out? That`s always where police start their investigation.

FINEBAUM: They have not ruled him out. But they did -- but there`s a great mystery about who he really is. And I`m going to defer to the mother on that. But they picked up his boyfriend -- her boyfriend, or ex- boyfriend, I should say, Nancy.

He was released after investigation. And it`s totally confusing right now. Totally. On who the father is.

GRACE: To Nancy Kersh, who`s the father?

KERSH: I can`t add to anymore of his comments. They`re still trying to determine who that is. Nadia never shared that information.

GRACE: OK. Well, that is her right. I just wish we could rule him out. And why is it, Belisa Vranich, Dr. Vranich, psychologist, that police always start with boyfriends, biological fathers, husbands, as a possible perp?

BELISA VRANICH, PSYCHOLOGIST: The statistics show that those are the men that usually will hurt women, is exactly what you said, the fathers of their children, boyfriends, paramours, fiances. That`s what the statistics show, unfortunately.

GRACE: To Donna in Missouri, hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is have they slowed the tape down of Nadia in the garage when she`s pulling out? It`s so fast you can`t see. But it seems to me as though someone might have been in the car.

GRACE: Excellent question.

To Nancy Kersh, the mother of Nadia, have you heard anything from police that someone was in the car?

KERSH: No, I haven`t.

GRACE: And I want to go to Dr. Michael Bell with Palm Beach County, he`s the chief medical examiner there. Officials still waiting for Quantico, the FBI lab, to finish processing evidence. How long does it take?

BELL: It could take weeks.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are the last images we have of 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. You`re watching the young mom leave on her lunch break from Tria market last Monday just after 1:00. Kersh hasn`t been seen since. Police have recovered her car in west Birmingham, her purse on a nearby railroad tracks.


GRACE: There is a $35,000 reward. The tip line, 205-332-6262.

To Pat in California, hi, Pat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I didn`t catch all of the previous caller`s question but I was wondering something similar. Did they -- do they have that surveillance camera trained on that area the entire day? And I wonder if they watched it from the time she arrived to work until that point, to see if possibly anyone entered her car if it were unlocked.

GRACE: To John Lucich, typically the surveillance cameras do not move. They are stationary. Wouldn`t you agree?

LUCICH: Yes, they do have pan tilting zoom. That means they have -- they`re operated by somebody. What they need to do is actually start going out and finding out how many video cameras they have in the city and then start taking a look at those to see if she went specific ways. I mean that -- that`s a good place to start.

GRACE: Back to Nancy Kersh, the mother of Nadia Kersh. Did police give you a ballpark estimate as to when the DNA would come back from Quantico?

KERSH: They did not. They -- what I understand, what I`ve been told is that they have submitted it and they have asked them to put it on the fast track.

GRACE: Do you plan to get the little boy when you have met all the requirements?


GRACE: Everyone, tip line, 205-332-6262. Please help us.

Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Tyler Picket, 28, Saratoga, Wyoming, killed Iraq. On a second tour. Awarded the Medal of Valor. Also served in Afghanistan.

Devoted to friends, dreamed of retiring to the Wyoming mountains. Leaves behind parents Ed and Sherry, widow Christie.

Tyler Pickett, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.