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Nancy Grace

Police Search Anthony Home Again After Releasing Crime Scene

Aired December 22, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthonys confirmed to be those of little Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making cause of death nearly impossible to determine, Orange County investigators literally on their hands and knees for days, searching, searching for hundreds of tiny, undeveloped bones, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, covered in long, light-colored hair, hair still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s tiny head.
Tonight, police leave the scene, heading straight to the Anthony house, where the CSI unit executes yet another search warrant, seizing even more evidence, leaving George Anthony visibly upset. What do we know so far? Items taken include little Caylee`s and mom Casey Anthony`s clothing and shoes.

And tonight, the jail announces mom Casey will be banned from any memorial or funeral services for 2-year-old Caylee, a funeral now on hold while the defense seeks a second autopsy. As we go to air, we are waiting on toxicology and other test results. The scene where little Caylee`s remains found now released, but the defense still hasn`t shown up, after days of complaining and whining to get in. Why? Where are they? And the defense sets up their own tip line for leads they claim will prove the tot mom is innocent.

And tonight, primetime exclusive, the man tot mom once accused of being little Caylee`s biological father is on air with us tonight. But tonight, will there ever be justice for Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The remains of a very little child are now unfolding a very big mystery.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and she`s smiling and she`s happy and she`s -- that she`s OK. We`re going to get our little girl back and she`s going to be just as she was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regret, I`m here to inform you that the skeletal remains found on December 11 are those of the missing toddler Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No specifics yet on how and when the 2-year-old girl was killed, but authorities say she was a victim of homicide. Investigators are still waiting for toxicology reports. No tissue, though, was found on the bones, so experts are not optimistic they`ll be able to specify a cause of death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the midst of grieving for their granddaughter, Caylee, Cindy and George Anthony were handed another search warrant. Less than five minutes after Orange County sheriff`s deputies cleared the crime scene a half mile away from the Anthonys, crime scene techs were entering their home. Investigators say that search warrant was obtained with probable cause from evidence gathered in the past few days. It`s likely that evidence could have come from the crime scene or an autopsy of little Caylee`s remains.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the jailhouse bans tot mom from little Caylee`s funeral? Florida CSI back at the Anthony home, seizing clothes and shoes. Why? All this while the defense demands a second autopsy.


CASEY ANTHONY: I truly, truly love that little girl and miss her so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee Marie Anthony`s last moments may always be a mystery. Investigators believe her mother, Casey, is the only one who knows what horror she might have suffered. They believe Casey is the one who researched neck-breaking and chloroform on her own computer as far back as nine months ago, three months before Caylee was killed. Orange County medical examiner Dr. Jan Garvaglia says there is no sign of trauma to Caylee`s bones. And as far as possible chloroform poisoning, the bones are clean of tissue, but even the hair that was found probably won`t help answer that question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It will be difficult to interpret levels from these specimens and thus will not be definitive in helping determine the cause of death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Dr. G. says the totality of evidence tells her Caylee was murdered -- evidence that her mother did not report her missing for a month, evidence that Caylee`s mother partied during that month, made incriminating statements...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because? We got here how, to do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied. Because I brought you up here. And honestly, I was reaching for...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop right there. I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to help.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and evidence uncovered just recently that Caylee`s body was wrapped in a trash bag and dumped into the woods less than a half mile from Caylee`s home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just one day after the Anthonys learned of their granddaughter`s death, authorities searched the family`s house yet again. Investigators took clothing and shoes belonging to both Casey and Caylee, among other items.


GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, CSI, Florida crime scene investigators, back at the Anthony home. Why?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, they just want -- they apparently found something, Nancy, at the crime scene during their nine-day search of that crime scene off of Suburban Drive in east Orlando, where they wanted to go back and check the house one more time. And they did about five minutes after the crime scene team left Suburban Drive and -- where the body of little Caylee Anthony was dumped.

And from what we understand they took clothing. They took shoes. They even took toys belonging to Caylee, and of course, clothing and shoes belonging to Casey Anthony. They were taken to the sheriff`s office, and they will be used as part of the investigation, Nancy.

GRACE: So you`re telling me, Mark Williams, that about five minutes after they finish the scene, they head straight to the Anthonys and execute another search warrant?

WILLIAMS: Three tenths of a mile away, Nancy. They didn`t waste any time. They found something there. They aren`t talking about that. But then they went back to the house, of course, and they even wrapped crime scene tape around the place -- around the Anthony home, as they did just a couple of weeks ago, Nancy.

GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there at the remains site. Is it true, Natisha, that even though police have now released the site, the defense still hasn`t shown up to take a look?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. The defense was contacted about 11:30 in the morning, before the scene was released. And they said they will not be coming out here. There was no reason to come out because they felt as if the scene had nothing to offer them, so...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! Did I just hear you say the defense said there`s no reason to see the crime scene? Did I hear that, or is my IFB completely fritzed out?

LANCE: No, your IFB is working. They said no reason for them to come out here. They would not be responding, coming out to see the scene.

GRACE: After all this time they`ve been screaming that they can`t see the scene, the scene gets released to them, and they don`t show up.

LANCE: That`s correct. And still have not even been out here, as of today.

GRACE: OK. We are taking your calls live. Let`s quickly unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight out of San Francisco, Daniel Horowitz. Also with me, Meg Strickler. Also with me, Darryl Cohen. I want to go first to you, Daniel Horowitz. Not go to the crime scene? Why?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you know, if you`re invited to a party, then you show up. They were disinvited to the real examination of the evidence. Now the party`s over, and the judge says -- and the police say, Go to the scene. It`s over. It`s too late. They wanted to be there when the body was there, when the evidence was there. They got cheated, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. You know, I disagree. Darryl Cohen, the defense itself has been complaining they can`t get into the crime scene where little Caylee`s remains were found. Now the police have released the crime scene, and they`re saying they don`t need to see it. I mean, Darryl, you`ve been both a prosecutor for many, many years, and now a defense attorney for many, many years. Most people don`t get to go to the crime scene, defense attorneys, until time of the trial. This is an excellent opportunity for the defense. What`s their problem?

DARRYL COHEN, ATTORNEY FOR JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: I think, Nancy, what I mentioned the other night. They said they wanted to be there. they really did not want to be there. They asked to be there. They knew the judge would not allow it. They didn`t want to go to the party because if they were not at the party, now they can complain that any problem at all, any mistake by the forensic people they can try and jump on because if they were there and they went there now, they couldn`t have that and they wouldn`t have it.

GRACE: You know what? Meg Strickler, he`s right. Everybody, what this means is, they asked to see the scene with the judge. The judge said no. Now they`ve got a chance, but now they`re not going to go so they can set it up on appeal that this is a reversible error, that they were not allowed on the scene while it was being processed. Meg Strickler, agree or disagree?

MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I totally agree with Mr. Cohen. They were properly filing the right motions, and now they have great appellate issues, should this go to trial and they lose.

GRACE: Straight back out to Natisha Lance, our producer there at the scene. Natisha, not that I`m not sure that they would want to go, but have the Anthonys been to the scene?

LANCE: No, they have not been to the scene, Nancy. Most of their outings that they`ve had so far -- they went to church on Sunday evening, but they have not been out and about too much since then.

GRACE: Natisha, what more can you tell me about this search that was executed on the Anthony home? My sources are telling me that Mr. Anthony was visibly upset. Now, before we go with that, how do we know that? Did someone actually see him?

LANCE: Apparently, they did see him in the doorway when he came to the door when the investigators came, saying, We have another search warrant to search the house. And from what onlookers are saying is that he appeared to be visibly upset about the situation. And I guess they`re dealing with it as best as they can. And once again, I did see George`s car outside of the house today, him walking to the door, and he just looks tired, Nancy. He looks like he`s been through it and he`s trying to cope with it as best as he can.

GRACE: There you see the video that Natisha Lance is describing, George and Cindy Anthony apparently both there. You also see that still in the doorway and in the windows, the family has up the posters "Where is little Caylee? Have you seen me?"

Mark Williams, what more can you tell me about the fact that the tot mom, according to the jail, will not be at a funeral or a memorial?

WILLIAMS: Boy, you hit that right on the head. Here`s the deal with this, is that thus far, no funeral service for little Caylee has been planned. A second autopsy was conducted. The remains will be given to a funeral home within the next day or so. And it`s jail policy that the tot mom will not be released. However, if somebody makes a request, that request could be -- could be honored.

GRACE: Mark Williams is with us. Everyone, when we come back, the ex-fiance of the tot mom is with us, this after the Anthony family appeared to accuse him.



CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, God. My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. In my gut every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it. And I want you to know that.


CASEY ANTHONY: I know, I want her home now.

CINDY ANTHONY: I want her home, so we can celebrate her 3rd birthday...


CINDY ANTHONY: ... with the family again.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. Every day, I can feel it, Mom. I know that I`m going to be home with you guys. I know she`s going to be home with us. Everyone just has to keep that faith because mine`s growing stronger every day.


GRACE: Every time I see that video of the tot mom visiting with her parents and I see the stricken look on Cindy Anthony`s face, where she`s just trying to hang onto anything the tot mom says that she can believe in -- she always has that same look. She`s just listening and listening, hoping.

Straight to Mark Williams, WNDB Newstalk 1150. Why is the jail now saying the tot mom will not be allowed to attend the funeral?

WILLIAMS: Well, there are obviously security concerns, and they really don`t let anybody out of jail to attend funerals. However, if there`s a request made by either her attorney, Jose Baez, and signed off by a judge, Allen Moore (ph) from the jail says they could accommodate that. But I don`t think you`ll see the tot mom at the jail.

Also, there`s a report out that the Anthonys are seeking donations for little Caylee`s funeral. That was one of the big stories tonight on one of the television stations here in town. And I ran that past a couple of people and they just could not believe that they would be asking for donations for their granddaughter`s funeral. They already have a trust fund set up already, and there`s a couple of thousand dollars in that, from what we understand, Nancy.

GRACE: What do you know about it, Natisha Lance? Are the Anthonys asking for money, for donations for the funeral?

LANCE: Actually, this is the first I`m hearing about that, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, we`ll find out. Thank you, Mark Williams.

Everybody, we are taking your calls live. And joining me right now in a primetime exclusive appearance is Jesse Grund. He is the ex-fiance of the tot mom, Casey Anthony. As you know, she at one point told him he was the biological father of little Caylee. He is being represented by veteran trial lawyer Darryl Cohen, who is joining us from New York. We are taking your calls live, along with Jesse and Darryl.

But first, I want you to hear this. Take a listen.


CINDY ANTHONY: How about Jesse? He`s been real close. Is there anything you want me to tell Jesse?

CASEY ANTHONY: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible. I`m saying that wholeheartedly and as calmly as possible.


CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know how much I trust him right now, and I even told Lee that. Lee is going to investigate a few people for me. I -- in my gut, I don`t know if I can trust him.

CINDY ANTHONY: Has Jesse ever watched Caylee in the last month or so while he was off work?



CASEY ANTHONY: The last time he watched Caylee was at his parents` house, when she was a baby. So that was -- 2006.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. You know, his dad has been trying to reach out to your dad. His mom sent Lee an e-mail and said to tell us that they -- as much as the differences that they had with you, that they still know that you`re a good mom and that, you know, they want Caylee back, as well. So I want you to know that.

CASEY ANTHONY: I appreciate that. I mean, coming from his family, that means a lot. As far as Jesse as an individual, is very questionable for me.


GRACE: Out to Jesse Grund. Later, the Anthonys go on to mention your name to police. At this point, what are your thoughts?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: When I heard that they had mentioned my name to police, and when I heard the jailhouse tapes of what she had said, I was fairly shocked. I thought Casey and I had maintained some sort of trusting friendship over the years after our relationship had broken up and didn`t for one second think that either her or her parents would suspect me of doing any harm to Caylee whatsoever at all.

GRACE: Is that how you interpreted their comments, that they were naming you as a potential suspect to police?

GRUND: Well, I mean, their actual statement to police, Cindy does directly mention me as the person she thought was Zanny, the person who was watching Caylee. And that was after she actually had the meeting with Casey in the jailhouse.

GRACE: Why do you believe the tot mom would go to the trouble of saying, I don`t trust him?

GRUND: That`s really something you`re going to have to ask her. Nancy, to be honest with you, I don`t know that person. The person I was with and the person that sits in that jail -- I don`t know her.

GRACE: Tell me about the person you thought you were with. How is she different from the tot mom we`ve come to know?

GRUND: Casey was a totally different person when we were together. She was a loving mother. Her life revolved around how she was going to be a mom, her career as a photographer, which is what she wanted to do...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa! Career as a photographer? For all I know, she sat on the sofa for the last two years!

GRUND: I`m not saying she hasn`t sat on the sofa...

GRACE: Career as a photographer?

GRUND: Nancy, I`m not saying she hasn`t sat on the sofa. What I am saying is, is that when we were together, she worked for Kodak, as we all know, and she wanted to further that as a career as a photographer. She did have a job all the way up until April of 2006, which is confirmed.

GRACE: What did she do for Kodak?

GRUND: She was an assistant manager for one of their on-site stores that they had inside the theme park.

GRACE: Are you sure?

GRUND: Positive. That`s where I met her.

GRACE: Tell me something, Jesse. When you first learned that Caylee was missing, what did you believe?

GRUND: I didn`t believe in my heart that Casey could actually hurt her. I didn`t really think that it was anything more than Casey left her at Target, or you know, dropped her off -- I didn`t know the extent of it because I was...

GRACE: Why did you two break up?

GRUND: The first time, it was because she thought that -- you know, she broke off the engagement because she thought I loved Caylee more than I loved her, which was the furthest thing from the truth. I loved them both.

GRACE: You know what? That`s the first time I`ve ever heard that. She thought you loved Caylee more than her?

GRUND: Absolutely. Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And you know, she has similar problems with her mother, concerned that the child looked to her grandmother as her mother. So this is a recurring problem with her?

GRUND: Well, that may be a little founded since Cindy did call herself Mommy to Caylee in front of Casey before.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will always stand by their daughter. And I want to ask people to think about the fact that this is their only daughter and their only granddaughter, and their only daughter is charged with the first degree murder of their only granddaughter. That`s not -- that`s not something that you can imagine. I mean, you can think about it, but to actually be there is -- is horrendously difficult.


GRACE: Tonight, we learn that police leave the crime scene and head straight back to the Anthonys` home, executing yet another warrant, leaving with bags of evidence out of the home, including clothing and shoes belonging to not only the tot mom but little Caylee, as well. We also learn the jail has put the kibosh on Casey Anthony attending her daughter`s funeral.

Also, Mark Williams, it`s my understanding the defense is demanding a second autopsy, but yet at this juncture, that autopsy has not been completed? Is that correct?

WILLIAMS: That`s my understanding right now, Nancy. The second autopsy was an option for the defense.

GRACE: OK. And to renowned pathologist Dr. Joshua Perper. He is the chief medical examiner in Broward County and author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, these remains are completely skeletonized. Every autopsy, well, most of them that I`ve seen, weigh the internal organs, they describe the body. What do you do in an autopsy when there`s nothing but a skeleton?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, it`s a misnomer because this is really an examination of skeletonized remains, not an autopsy. So the only thing which they did, or the medical examiner did, examine the bone for any kind of broken bone or fracture and any kind of natural disease, which is very unlikely to be seen in this healthy child. So a second autopsy, there is no autopsy, and wouldn`t show nothing more.




CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know you do. You have to keep thinking positive. Positive feelings, Casey.

C. ANTHONY: Oh, I know. I have been. I`ve been staying as positive as I can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The remains found in the woods last week are the remains of Caylee Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our number one priority from day one was to locate little Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cause of death will be listed as homicide by undetermined means.

C. ANTHONY: No one has once said anything for me, always -- that I love my daughter, that I want her safety. And that she and the rest of our family is my only concern.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony is already facing first degree murder and other charges in her daughter`s disappearance, charges filed before the remains were found.

Casey Anthony has pleaded not guilty. If convicted, the 22-year-old could be sentenced to life. Prosecutors said they will not seek the death penalty, although they could change their mind.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: After the discovery of the child`s skull completely bound in thick industrial duct tape, the state may be rethinking their decision not to seek the death penalty.

With us tonight is a very special guest and a primetime exclusive, Jesse Grund, the ex-fiance of the tot mom. The Anthonys actually suggested to police he could be a suspect, and we are taking your calls.

Out to the lines, Lisa in Oklahoma. Hi, Lisa.


GRACE: Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you so much. I`ve been watching you since you were Larry King`s sidekick.

GRACE: Bless you. Bless you. And thank you so much, and thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I want to tell you that little Lucy is the spitting image of you.

GRACE: Well, don`t tell my mother that, because she thinks she looks just like her, and they saw Santa today for the first time ever, and I`m going to show you those pictures in a few moments.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh good. Well, you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you need to put pictures of them after Christmas.

GRACE: I will.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. My question is, why would Leonard Padilla believe that Casey accidentally killed Caylee when Casey was searching neck-breaking, let alone duct taping her head and mouth?

GRACE: To Jesse Grund, you thought initially she was not involved. And I`m guessing that you still believe it was accidental?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER FIANCE: That`s tough for me to say. Again, I don`t know what this Casey is capable of. I know the evidence, of course, points in one direction. But I don`t know what she is capable of anymore. And I repeat myself.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this. Search your heart. What do you believe?

DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, JESSE GRUND`S LAWYER: I don`t mean to jump in, Nancy, but I think that what Jesse is trying to say is his heart is saying one thing, his head is saying something entirely different. And that makes a tremendous difficult decision for him to come out and say that.

GRUND: Trying -- trying to reconcile the two individuals together has been difficult for me. Because I remember the Casey that she was, and I try and see her for the person that she is now, that`s not the same person that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. And that -- that makes it a little bit harder when I try and put those two things together.

GRACE: Well, Jesse, you just said something actually that`s pretty profound. I once had a trial judge that would tell the jury that they must believe beyond a reasonable doubt in their head and in their heart to a moral and reasonable certainty.

So are you telling me that while you believe in your head that the evidence shows she`s guilty, in your heart, you still cannot believe it?

GRUND: It`s hard for me to accept that she would do anything to Caylee. It`s -- very difficult for me to accept that, Nancy. And I don`t mean that to be patronizing or condescending to anyone out there who believes otherwise.

But when you knew who Casey as she was, and you know what she was like around to Caylee and how much the two of us loved Caylee and doted on her, it`s -- difficult for me to actually commit to something like that.

GRACE: Jesse, what is your most vivid recollection of little Caylee?

GRUND: I`ve got a couple. You just said that your kids went to -- your children went to see Santa for the first time. Caylee`s first Christmas, they couldn`t make it to the mall for Santa pictures, so I went and bought a cheap Santa outfit and took pictures with her on my lap as Santa for her little holiday scrap book.

And, you know -- I`m -- I`m sorry. It`s rough, because every time I think about her, I realize that she`s gone. And that I`m not going to get her back. And that`s -- that`s hard. That`s hard.

GRACE: Jesse, why did the tot mom accuse you of loving little Caylee more than you loved her?

GRUND: I mean, it sounds like -- when I heard it, my response to her was -- because I got a paternity test done to prove that I was not Caylee`s biological father. And if I didn`t love Casey, wouldn`t that have been the perfect time for me to just go at that point?

But she didn`t want to hear that. She didn`t care at that point. And she wanted me to go from being Caylee`s father to just another guy in Caylee`s life.

GRACE: Because it seems to me, Jesse, that the kind of man I would want is somebody that does love the twins more than me, because they are now the most important thing on earth to me. So why did that -- why did Caylee end up being a reason that you guys broke -- I just don`t understand why that would be a break-up.

GRUND: You know, I think that may have been a front for something else. I mean, her behavior completely changed at the end of the relationship. She went from being a homebody who enjoyed watching movies and hanging out as a family and going out to dinner to somebody who blew off my brother`s graduation because she had a party the night before, and she was too hungover to show up.

So there was some definitive changes in her behavior. And I still have no explanation. I still can`t reconcile who she was and then who she became. It`s very difficult for me.

GRACE: Did you love little Caylee like she was your own child?

GRUND: A piece of paper couldn`t tell me not to love her like she was my daughter.

GRACE: Back to the lines, Amanda in Kentucky. Hi, Amanda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was wondering, is it true that Casey was spotted coming out of the woods with a shovel, and was it the same area of the woods that the body was found? And also, has the shovel been taken for evaluation as evidence?

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who first put up the bond for the tot mom and then went on to search exhaustively for little Caylee -- Leonard, I don`t think the truth of that sighting has ever been proven or disproven, but it`s not the same place. Wasn`t that sighting out by the Orlando International Airport?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Yes. That`s correct. It`s a totally different area. It doesn`t -- it`s not even close to where they found the skeletal remains.

But let me, let me throw something in here that I think is important that I`ve been thinking about for about a week. At one time, and I think if you go back, you`ll find the.

GRACE: You`ve been thinking about it for a week, why couldn`t you tell me Friday night?

PADILLA: Because I didn`t know exactly what it meant until today when I discussed it with Rob.


PADILLA: What happened is, George is saying that he`s got people being followed that he knows.

GRACE: I remember that.

PADILLA: . who`s got Caylee.

GRACE: And they`re being surveilled.

PADILLA: They`re being surveilled. And then we got to talking about Dominic, his private detective, and another fellow by the name of Jim Hoover. And we thought, well, why hasn`t, you know, somebody like the FBI, for instance, Nick Savage, gone and asked George if these are the two private detectives that were following the suspects.

I think it`s very important.

GRACE: Because?

PADILLA: If they were following somebody, they`re going to say, this is who it was. I don`t think they were following anybody.

GRACE: So you`re saying if there was somebody in mind by the Anthonys, that could be a potential killer, a suspect, is that what you`re saying?

PADILLA: Yes, sure. But.

GRACE: OK, got it.

PADILLA: Listen, let me tell you why I know it`s not true. The very first night we got there, we met with the Anthonys, Lee, Cindy and George. And 100 percent of the conversation was directed at convincing us that Jesse had the child or had done something to the child.

We met the very next morning with Jose Baez, and he drag out a card that proved how innocent statements about love for a child and a woman can be contorted into making us believe, and they really, really worked on it, that Jesse had something to do with it, Jesse had the child, Jesse had harmed the child.

Two different instances within 24 hours.

GRACE: With us, Leonard Padilla, who actually searched exhaustively for little Caylee. And as we go to break, we are taking your calls live.

But now at your request, new photos of the twins. They`ll be online tonight. Here they are with Santa. They asked for lots of bottles to learn to walk, to kiss my sister, brother, every day, to see my grandparents a lot. They would like hair, teeth, and love.



CINDY ANTHONY: During the whole time when I was sitting there talking to Jesse that Saturday after all of this happened, when he was in my home, he -- was sure of all of his -- you know, he was sure about -- now, you haven`t talked to Caylee or Casey during this whole time frame? Absolutely not. Are you absolutely sure? Absolutely not.

So that was a big red flag when he changed his story from going to the media that he didn`t see Caylee.


CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, or even that he had heard Caylee`s voice because he maintained the whole time that the babysitter had her from what Casey said, and that was not he believed all that so.


GRACE: We learned police leave the crime scene, and head straight to the Anthony home, leaving with bags of evidence. This just recently -- this is just about the third search they have done on the Anthony home.

George Anthony appearing visibly upset with police, came with a warrant to look at the home.

We are taking your calls live.

We also learn the jail has announced the tot mom will be forbidden from attending the funeral.

Out to the lines. Amanda in Kentucky. Hi, Amanda. I think I`ve got Amanda in Kentucky?

Jennifer in Maine, hi, Jennifer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question for Leonard, if I could.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wondering the date of the incident in which Casey would not let her father near the trunk in the garage, what the date of that incident was. And on that day, was the area that the body was found in, was it flooded at that point?

GRACE: Interesting. To Leonard Padilla, in a nutshell -- when -- when did George Anthony and the tot mom have an altercation when she wouldn`t let him look in the trunk? And Hurricane Faye didn`t come until the end of August.

PADILLA: That particular incident was on the 24th, in the afternoon of the 24th.

GRACE: The 24th of July?

PADILLA: June. June, June.

GRACE: June 24th.

PADILLA: 24th.

GRACE: OK. Thank you.

Back out to the lines, Amber in Michigan. Hi, Amber.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Beautiful pictures.

I have a question regarding the police officer or officers that Casey had dated.

GRACE: That was a nice way to put it. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Were they ever thoroughly questioned during this investigation? Had anyone ever theorized that possibly they assisted her, her being Casey and ways of possibly how to cover up the murder?

GRACE: Interesting. Out to Mark Williams with WNDB, it`s my recollection that both the officers said the tot mom had dated were questioned.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes, they were questioned. As a matter of fact, one of them decided just to resign. He worked for the Orange County Sheriff`s Office for a very short time.

And I don`t think they assisted in -- any sort of a cover-up whatsoever. The one, the rookie, basically, I don`t think had the -- had the wherewithal to cover up any sort of a murder.

GRACE: Out to John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies."

John Lucich, what do you make of the jail forbidding the tot mom to go to the funeral?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": I think it`s a standard procedure. I think any time you have someone who is that much of a threat, or could be harmed, puts the sheriff`s office in a precarious situation.

I think for security purposes right there, to cover them, they need to do that, and I think it`s the right thing to do.

GRACE: And John Lucich, why did the cops yet again go back to the Anthony home after closing down the crime scene?

LUCICH: It`s very clear that what they found at the crime scene was very evidentiary. And what they`re looking for, especially when they took shoes, maybe they`re looking for a shoe print that was found on the girl`s clothing or embedded on to the duct tape. Maybe they`re looking for fibers when they took the clothes that they found with the body.

This -- a host of things but they -- they were very clear when they went. They went back very quickly.

GRACE: Right.

John, I find it very difficult to believe, unless the perp was wearing gloves. I just have to stop every time I see this video of little Caylee. That there are no fingerprints, hair, fiber, nothing on that duct tape?


LUCICH: Oh, I`m sorry. I thought you were talking to somebody else. No, it`s very -- remember, this body was under water for so many times, and remember, it was Tim Miller who said that he had to call off the search, because he actually lost a four wheeler in that area.

So water and the elements can do so much to erase DNA and lots of other types of evidence.

GRACE: Do we have Dr. Perper yet? OK.

Dr. Perper, do you believe that even being submerged in water that duct tape, thick industrial duct tape, would still have evidentiary clues, such as fingerprints? Or would water get rid of any potential fingerprints?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, this is not mathematical. It could have -- the tape, which is sticky, could have still some fingerprints stick to it. But certainly water would disturb the initial condition of the tape. So it`s a question of what the findings are. It`s possible, but not necessarily so.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, the family has remained silent, essentially, since the remains were identified as Caylee`s. They also have not been to the jail at all to visit the tot mom. Thoughts?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, when they`re probably shuttling between feeling numb and continuing their ongoing denial. But these people have got to be devastated.

It`s possible that Casey didn`t want them there, that she didn`t want to be burdened with their emotions, with their grief, although they rationalize it by saying, no, it`s going to be public record, we can`t say anything to her.

GRACE: Back to Jesse Grund, the ex-fiance of the tot mom Casey Anthony. Jesse, take a listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any reason that you have outside intuition to believe that Jesse may or may not be involved in Caylee`s disappearance?

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I believe that Jesse -- again, this is just my feelings, I believe that Jesse is very jealous of the relationships that Casey has had after they were.


GRACE: When you hear this, do you bear anger toward the Anthonys, or is your heart softened to them after their loss?

GRUND: Look, I believe that the Anthonys are grieving grandparents, so our differences aside, I want to give them time to grieve, you know.

GRACE: Right.

GRUND: Things can be addressed at another time. But as of right now, they are grieving grandparents. Again, a lot of what they have said is not congruent with what I would consider the truth about my feelings, and about who I am as an individual. However, they are going through something right now that I would not wish on my worst enemy.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. We are taking your calls live.

Darryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer who is representing Mr. Grund, Meg Strickler out of Atlanta, Daniel Horowitz out of San Francisco.

Daniel, if the defense wants to blame somebody else they better stick with an imaginary figure, like Zanny the nanny, not somebody live that can walk into the courtroom and say, that is BS, like Jesse Grund.


I mean, Jesse, you are a remarkable young man. And that family and Caylee were so fortunate to have you in their lives. And the defense better keep far away from you. They`d better make you their hero if they want to have any credibility with the jury.

GRACE: And to Meg Strickler, apparently, the defense is still sticking with the nanny did it.

MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, they are. And they`re just going to have to try and come up with some reasonable doubt here. That`s all they needed to do, some sort of reasonable doubt. They`re going to be grasping at whatever they can here.

GRACE: And to Darryl Cohen, do you recall they`ll stick with that at trial?

COHEN: I hope they`re not that foolish. It should be the unknown nanny.


GRACE: Back to Natisha Lance, our producer there at the scene where little Caylee`s remains were discovered.

Natisha, what are police doing to kind of protect the scene at this point, even though it`s been closed? It`s over. The police search is over.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, this is actually private property, Nancy. And there are some "no trespassing" signs that have been put up. Bu But there is at least one deputy who`s out here tonight, kind of out here for our protection, not necessarily because of anything that they think is going to happen to the scene.

GRACE: And finally, back to Jesse Grund who was once told he was the biological father of little Caylee. Will you be attending the funeral?

GRUND: Well, that`s dependent on if the Anthonys invite me. Of course, I`m going to want to be there for Caylee`s memorial. But one way or another, for those of us that don`t get invited, if Anthonys don`t invite me and my family, those that they have associated with, we`re going to have our.

GRACE: Jesse, how has this affected your life?

GRUND: You know I`m never going to be able to replace Caylee. I`m never going to be able to replace that portion of my heart that I had that I gave to her. But this case is -- all of us were involved, it has followed us around and it will continue like a cloud.

There is a -- those accusations that they have.

GRACE: Right.

GRUND: . thrown against me have been proved to be incorrect and.

GRACE: Jesse.

GRUND: . it`s always going to be there.

GRACE: . you`ve remained strong throughout, thank you for being with us.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Lieutenant Colonel Max Naliai, 42, Pagopago, American Samoa, killed Iraq. On a second tour. Worked with Iraq police and army. Over 20 years of service. Awarded two Bronze Stars, Purple Heart, five service medals.

An Oregon state grad. Dedicated to family. Loved e-mailing jokes. Leaves behind mom, Kalala, four sisters, two brothers, widow Evelyn, four children.

Max Naliai, American hero.

Thanks to our guests and especially to you for being with us. And tonight, thank you to Monica and Sissy in Campbell for these darling stockings for Lucy and John David. And special goodnight the twins to Germany and New Jersey friends of the show, Sebastian and Megan.

And from precious future crime fighters in Georgia, Ann, Mary, Michael, Abby and Taylor.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night and Happy Hanukkah.