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Nancy Grace

Investigators Said to Believe Caylee Intentionally Murdered

Aired January 09, 2009 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed those of Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making cause of death nearly impossible to determine, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull literally rolls out, the skull covered in light-colored hair, hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.
Bombshell. Inside the investigation, just emerging as we go to air, stunning report -- no accident! Repeat, no accident. Tot mom Casey Anthony intentionally murders little Caylee and acted completely alone. Police investigators who once bought into the accident theory now convinced it`s murder one. Investigators say Caylee`s body at least two days inside tot mom`s car trunk before being dumped.

Tonight, we learn investigators pinpoint the exact day of murder as June 16. The source also confirms duct tape wrapped specifically across little Caylee`s mouth -- specifically across the mouth. And we discover part of the state`s evidence is a positive match between hair on the skull to Caylee`s hair in tot mom`s trunk.

Lawyers for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony take to the airwaves, trying to explain why Caylee`s remains still all alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home, no funeral date in sight, and explaining why George and Cindy Anthony want immunity.

Apparently, being dragged into court yesterday and handcuffed, her daughter`s remains in a cardboard box and her entire family under suspicion has not affected the tot mom`s appetite. With donations from across the country pouring into her jail account, she`s ordering up even more treats and beauty supplies for herself behind bars.



I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten -- she has been a victim, just as much as Caylee has.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources tell an Orlando CNN affiliate that authorities have overwhelming evidence showing tot mom Casey Anthony intentionally killed her daughter, Caylee. The source says investigators have now established a timeline of Caylee`s death that goes back to June, based on the reports from a botanist and entomologist about the remains site.

CINDY ANTHONY: I saw rotten whatever it was (INAUDIBLE) decomposing in there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The station also reports that test results conducted on Anthony`s car show little Caylee spent at least two days in the trunk before she was left at the remains site. Not only that, but sources say hair found in the trunk matches hair taken from Caylee`s remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Add all of this to evidence of duct tape found over the mouth of the child`s skull, high levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car, and sources say it paints a picture that points only to the child`s mother.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news, a stunning report just emerging from inside the police investigation, overwhelming evidence tot mom Casey Anthony acting alone in little Caylee`s death. And it was murder one, no accident. Repeat, no accident, intentional homicide of a 2-year-old little girl.


CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Just tell her that I love her and that I miss her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orlando CNN affiliate is reporting that sources close to the Anthony case say there is overwhelming evidence showing Caylee was intentionally killed by her mother, Casey Anthony.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey seems to be asking you here if you want her to bring the "little snothead." I`m assuming the "little snothead" to be who?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources say hair taken from the tot mom`s car trunk matches hair from Caylee`s remains and evidence from Oak Ridge lab suggests little Caylee spent at least two days in the trunk before being dumped.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

That distinct odor (INAUDIBLE) something you never forget. That distinct odor, I -- I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk. I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources tell the station that forensic reports from the botanist and entomologist have helped investigators establish a timeframe of death for Caylee that dates back to June.

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: That Mommy loves her very much and she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me!


GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo! Tonight, a stunning report emerges from inside the police investigation, putting a lot of doubts at rest, the accident theory totally rejected and the theory that the tot mom had an accomplice out the window.

Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the very latest, Nancy, is the fact that Jessica D`Onofrio from WKMG-TV channel 6 produced a report that said entomologists and botanists have discovered that little Caylee Anthony had been lying in those woods since at least June 18th. They believe that with their investigation, their own investigation, and that the grass growing up through some of the remains, that she was killed on June 16th, which was a Monday, and dumped on Wednesday, June 18th, Nancy.

GRACE: And joining us right now, the person to break -- the reporter to break this story, Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, thank you for being with us. Explain to me this detailed report you`re learning about from inside the police investigation that Mark Williams is referring to.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, we now know a timeframe of death, Nancy. What wound up happening is that the forensic entomologists and the forensic botanists that were brought into this case to analyze the terrain and the bug life around where the body was found -- they`ve returned in their reports now.

Now what we can see is that they have narrowed down a timeframe of death, not an exact date, but a timeframe of death to June, which directly corresponds with what investigators have been saying for quite some time now. They know that Caylee was last seen on or around June 16th. The Oak Ridge National Laboratory confirms that they have test results that show that the body was in the trunk of Casey`s car for about two days. And then investigators believe after that two days, it was dumped down the street from the Anthony home.

So now we have a timeframe of death here directly corresponding to what investigators thought, that the child was murdered around that time and has been at that dump site ever since June. We also have...

GRACE: Hold on. According to this inside report, it says that the body is believed to have been dumped on June 18 and that...

D`ONOFRIO: Excuse me. Yes, June 18.

GRACE: Yes, which means that we also know it confirms the body was in the trunk for two days, according to this report, which pinpoints the time of death as June 16, the day of June 16 -- not a timeframe, not a month, not a week, June 16.

D`ONOFRIO: Absolutely, Nancy. But when you talk to forensic entomologists and when you talk to forensic botanists, what they specialize in in this kind of case is a timeframe.

GRACE: Correct.

D`ONOFRIO: They`ll always correct the reporter and say, We can only pinpoint a timeframe. But you`re absolutely right.

GRACE: And also, after going over your information, Jessica D`Onofrio -- Jessica joining us from WKMG -- I also noticed that it said the duct tape was over the child`s mouth. And there`s been a lot of speculation about where was the duct tape? Was it wrapped around to conceal her identity? A whole lot of theories about the duct tape. Now we are confirming, according to this report, it was specifically placed over little Caylee`s mouth. Yes, no?


GRACE: What else can you tell us, Jessica?

D`ONOFRIO: I can tell you that, you know, when they made a positive ID on the body, they used the skeletonized remains to make that positive ID on Caylee. They used her bones. But they also now have run tests on the hair that was found at the dump site near the skeleton there, and they have now been able to confirm that the hair found at that dump site was the hair found in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car. So what it means is that investigators can now directly place Caylee`s body in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car.

GRACE: And not only that -- to Dr. Michael Arnall -- we`re showing right now a post-mortem root band. Where hair originates from a body already in decomposition, a dark band often appears there near the root of the hair. That hair is now confirmed, according to this report, as being little Caylee`s.

Dr. Arnall, explain to me how the death band works. How does that appear? Why does that appear on the deceased`s hair?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I don`t know the specific biologic changes, but it`s thought to be associated with where the hair meets the surface of the skin and the certain biologic changes that occur in the skin, the decomposition, at that -- at that level merge into the hair. And you see that band preserved on the hair -- the hair shaft itself.

GRACE: And apparently -- to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the very beginning -- all of this is not affecting the tot mom`s appetite. She is getting donations from all over the country into her jail account?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. She had donations for $20 each from at least Kentucky and also other parts of Florida. They`re coming in from all over the country. Now, also, Casey had a commissary order recently. She was ordering chili, which we also know to be one of Caylee`s favorite foods. She also ordered some shampoo, conditioner, Chapstick, cocoa butter lotion...


LANCE: ... a security (ph) pen. She also had granola bars, hot chips, barbecue corn chips. So she`s continuing to eat, most definitely.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Gloria Allred, Randy Kessler, Joe Episcopo. Joe, you know, that money she`s getting from across the country could go toward her daughter`s funeral. Instead, she`s ordering cocoa butter to slather on her body behind bars.

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this evidence doesn`t prove how the girl was killed. It`s not conclusive. It just shows that the body was disposed of.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives believe Casey took the actions that led to her daughter`s death on June 16th, which corresponds to the June timeframe of death. And the evidence against Casey continues to mount. Investigators believe Casey dumped her daughter`s body down the street from the Anthony family home around June 18th. According to test results conducted on the trunk of Casey`s car by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the body spent at least two days there before it was dumped. Also found in that trunk, a hair which showed signs of decomposition.

Now sources say that hair matches hair taken from Caylee`s remains at the dump site. Add all of this to evidence of duct tape found over the mouth of the child`s skull, high levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car and cell phone pings that place her near the crime scene during those days in June, and sources say it paints a picture that points only to the child`s mother.


GRACE: A late-breaking and stunning development, sources leaking from inside the police investigate investigation confirm even the investigators who had once clung to the hope that this little girl died by accident and was then part of a cover-up of the death now are convinced of murder one and also that the tot mom acted completely alone.

Let`s go out to the lawyers. Gloria Allred, victims` rights advocate, family law attorney joining us out of LA, Randy Kessler, veteran trial lawyer out of Atlanta, and Joe Episcopo, defense attorney out of the Florida jurisdiction.

To Gloria Allred, weigh in. Uh-oh. Gloria`s satellite down. To Randy Kessler. Weigh in.

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I think the biggest problem the prosecution may have is a sympathetic jury. It takes a unanimous verdict to convict. And you know what? And these donations are coming in nationwide, $20 here, $20 there. I think that this new development may be worse for the prosecution because we all want to humanize her. She doesn`t look like a killer, and we want to think maybe it was a accident.

Well, all of a sudden, whoever did this is a demon. Whoever put tape across her mouth, suffocated her, whatever they did, is a demon, and the jury may be sympathetic, or one person on the jury may be sympathetic. That`s a problem for the prosecution.

GRACE: Hold on. Randy, what you just said doesn`t make any sense.


GRACE: How could all of this evidence hurt the prosecution?

KESSLER: This is how it could hurt the prosecution. They know that she`s dead. They know that there`s been a murder. What they have to do is tie it to Casey. Now, the problem is we want to humanize her as a human being. We think she looks normal. She looks decent and...

GRACE: But how does that hurt the prosecution?

KESSLER: Because now they have to prove that she`s a demon and it looks like an even more evil person...


GRACE: Kessler, Kessler...


GRACE: I think one crime scene photo of a tiny skull whose mouth is covered in duct tape, with Caylee`s hair attached, will convince the jury of the identity or the character of the killer.

KESSLER: Of the killer, that`s right. But is this the killer? Why would people across the country be donating money to her, giving her money to buy products in jail if some people out there didn`t have some hope that she was innocent? And all it takes is one on the jury.

GRACE: Joining me right now is Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist at University of Florida. Jason, thank you for being with us. This report that we have just gotten, has just been leaked out the police department -- Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG has broken it -- says that growth, biological growth, was coming up through the skeleton, and from that growth and from insects, they can determine how long the body had been lying there. Explain.

JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST: Well, that`s correct. And just as Jessica was saying earlier, you can in these reports show a date, like June 18th. But ultimately, you still have a timeframe. And in order to understand that, you kind of have to understand the way entomologists construct their report.

Insects grow by accumulating heat in the environment. On hot days, they grow quicker. On cold days, they grow slower. So much like on your utility bill, if you look at it, your utility will often break your utility bill down into heating days and cooling days. Well, entomologists do the same thing, and they accumulate heat units each and every day that this insect has been alive. So if you`re totaling numbers, you do come back to a specific day.

That`s kind of an artifact of the report writing. That`s where your numbers total up. And those numbers kind of indicate an approximate age of the insects.

And then what the entomologist has to do is calculate all the variables that may be present. For instance, we don`t know the exact temperatures on the remains at that crime scene. We know temperatures nearby from weather stations, radio stations and TV stations. And also, you have to understand that when these insects deposit their young, they deposit hundreds at a time. It`s not uncommon for a female fly to deposit a couple hundred eggs. And just like a litter of puppies or litter of kittens, some of these larvae will outgrow others. So you have the biological variation in there, as well.

So this exact day that comes back on this report is kind of an artifact of the way insect growth is tabulated, and then it`s up to the entomologist to try to decide what is an acceptable timeframe for all of these variables.

GRACE: To Gloria Allred, her satellite is back up, joining us from LA. Gloria, thanks for being with us. Gloria...


GRACE: ... you`ve seen this type of evidence, many, many times, as have I -- all of us, actually. And to everybody watching tonight, the lawyers that are speaking are not talking heads. They`re all practicing lawyers. We`ve all practiced law for many, many years and have all tried cases.

Gloria, when you hear a forensic entomologist talk, it makes me wonder. I remember watching my mom, who was an accountant, look down long columns of numbers, and all of a sudden say, Oh! And she`ll find one number that she knows doesn`t fit, like you or I reading pages and pages of a faxed scenario. We can analyze it legally. I guess it`s the way entomologists work. They can look at this fact scenario and determine how long that body had been there.

ALLRED: Yes, but also, of course, it`s going to be a battle of the experts, Nancy. And the defense will have their entomologists and they will have their forensic botanist, and of course, the prosecution will have those. And we`ll have to see who is believed. That`s what it`s going to be all about.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While we may never know a cause of death, sources say Casey will be convicted based on extremely strong evidence. And investigators who may have believed at the outset of the case that this could have been an accident have completely changed their minds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bottom line is, folks, no child should have to go through this.


GRACE: Tonight, breaking news. Jessica D`Onofrio from WKMG has gotten a source inside the police department that says there was no accident, the tot mom acted intentionally and acted alone. At the same time, the attorneys for grandparents Cindy and George Anthony take to the air waves, trying to explain their no-show in court, why they haven`t been to the jailhouse since October.

Out to Jessica D`Onofrio. What do we know about their absence in court?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, basically, they don`t want to bring the circus to town. A lot of times, they don`t want to come and visit Casey in jail, we haven`t seen them coming to visit the jail, because they don`t want to create that circus, that media circus, as they call it in front of the jail. And plus, yesterday, when Casey was brought in to court, she was brought in to court at the last minute. So George and Cindy weren`t there. They were not there at the time. And she was ordered to appear in front of Judge Strickland, and they got her there within a half hour.

GRACE: Here is the grandparents` attorney taking to the airwaves.


BRAD CONWAY, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Some of the best investigators in Orange County are working and doing their job well. And I`m going to do my job well. And for me to allow my clients to go into a room with the FBI and the Orange County sheriff`s office without protections that ensure that they can say what they need to say without worrying about further ramifications would be incompetence my part, and I`m not going do that.

I`m not concerned that the professionals, meaning the lawyers or the experts, would do that, but the middle people. You know, there`s a great temptation to sell these photographs because there`s no doubt that they would be worth a lot of money to, say, "The National Enquirer" or "The Globe." I think Judge Strickland`s order yesterday is a very good order. It`s a great compromise, and it enables everybody that`s legally entitled and needs to see the photographs to do so.


GRACE: That is the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, Brad Conway, on the "Today" show. He`s talking about the judge`s ruling on the autopsy, as well as why they have not been to the courtroom.

What about it? To you, Gloria Allred. Shouldn`t the parents be there for her?

ALLRED: Well, I think they would want to be. But apparently, they didn`t have enough notice that she was coming in yesterday.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Sources close to the Casey Anthony case say investigators have overwhelming evidence that there`s no question Casey killed her three-year-old daughter Caylee and that she did it on purpose. Local 6 has now uncovered new information that investigators now have a time frame of death that dates back to June.

This, according to reports returned by forensic botanists and entomologies brought in to analyze the terrain and insects growth where the child`s body was found. Sources say there were plants growing up through the small skeleton and bug evidence was also recovered. Both helped scientists come to their conclusion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She just took the body right around the corner there from the house, when her dad almost found it. Law enforcement thinks it was on the 18th.


GRACE: Straight out to Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who first got the tot mom out from behind bars, came off that bond.

Padilla, all along you`ve been saying accident. What do you think now?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: You can`t argue against Jessica`s sources. They`ve proved --

GRACE: So what`s your theory?

PADILLA: She taped her mouth shut and asphyxiated her.

GRACE: Well, just taping the mouth shut does not lead to murder --

PADILLA: Well, if she gave her chloroform first, I mean. Put her out with chloroform, then asphyxiated her.

GRACE: OK, Leonard, you have been in the home, you have been around the family, what is your version of what went down? Now that we know that police are going with murder one, and she is the sole actor.

PADILLA: She got in a big fight with her mom. Actually her mom -- because of the checks that she had taken, or the money that she had taken out of Cindy`s mom`s account. Cindy, basically was throttling her. She grabbed her child, ran out of there the night of the 15th, around midnight. And shortly thereafter, she caused her child -- the death that the law enforcement is saying took place.

Obviously, I have to reverse myself, once again on the fact that I thought that it was accidental. And then on the 18th, she packaged the body. We know that the Tennessee people had said it was 2.6 days of decomposition.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: So you can work backwards from when she was at the house. I thought that she had put the body in the package, in the trunk, until the 24th when George almost worked his way around to the trunk. But now law enforcement is saying definitely because of the entomologist and the botanist that the body was dumped there.

GRACE: You know, Leonard, it`s amazing the way that the entomologists can pinpoint almost down to the day.

PADILLA: Well there, is something else. There is something else. They find terpenes in that car anywhere in the trunk, that`s going to lead them to put the car right at the scene.

GRACE: For anybody that doesn`t understand -- know what a terpene is, please explain that.

PADILLA: Well, it`s a residue or a -- that`s given off by certain Florida area and also available in other areas but if they find terpenes, that means that the car wasn`t just up on the roads. It was down in the forest or the weeds or close by.

So it`s a situation where there`s no doubt they already know if they have them or they don`t have them. But if they have them that puts the car real close to the scene, rather than just out on the road. So you know, they`re - they`re - and the thing about it is, Nancy, like this past weekend when the Anthony attorney and Jose Baez met, and had an in-depth discussion as to how to handle what was coming down the road, I think only proves why the Anthonys didn`t show up in court. They were strategizing as to how do we handle these things.

GRACE: Out to Susan Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing."

We know that all of this evidence is coming forward. The tot mom had to know this was coming down. Yet she is not concerned about her daughter`s remains sitting in a cardboard box. She`s not concerned about being dragged into court in handcuffs, putting her whole family under suspicion, her parents, her brother. She`s busy ordering up treats and beauty products for herself. Explain.

SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think she`s disconnected, totally from reality. She`s watching this as if she`s in a reality series. Not as if it`s her own child and her own life and we see the narcissism in having cocoa butter and really carrying about what she looks like and smiling for the camera. There is such a huge disconnect.

I think that your last guest really showed us the beginning of what happened with the relationship between the mother, Cindy, and Casey. There was a fight. She was revenge -- she was using revenge. She was going to take that little girl away from her grandma, who loved that little girl, but really didn`t take very good care of her, because she let Casey be the mother.

GRACE: Back to Jessica d`Onofrio with WKMG, who broke the story.

Jessica, do they have any motive yet attached to the murder?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, WKMG: Well, Nancy, they`ve been working on that for months. I mean you have to go back and look at the discovery here and specifically look at her ex-boyfriend, Tony Lazaro`s statements, that he has made to authorities. He specifically came out and said, I am not interested -- I was never interested in having female children. I wanted to have male children. All of that points to motive. And I can assure you that is going to be, big part of this case when they`re trying to pin down a motive.

And sure, part of it could also be what your last guest was saying. The hatred or the anger in that family that Casey had for her mother. We do have discovery coming out, where George has even said on taped FBI interviews, that there was always an animosity between the two. And that when Caylee was born, it was Cindy who picked up Caylee . And put her in her own arms first.

GRACE: You know back to the lawyers, Gloria Allred, Randy Kessler, Joe Episcopo.

You know, Gloria, I don`t understand that hatred. I wasn`t the first one to get to hold the twins. I couldn`t. I had just had surgery. I saw them. I got to kiss their forehead and they went to intensive care. All I wanted was for them to live and to survive. But the state doesn`t have to prove motive, Gloria. It doesn`t matter what the motive is.

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, that`s true. But of course motive and opportunity help to identify the perpetrator of a crime. You and millions, and most mothers, would love your babies and want to be protective of them and always be protective of them. But there are certain young women who -- who don`t feel that way and are not ready for the responsibility.

GRACE: What about it, Joe Episcopo? Does the state need motive? Will this act be too heinous for a jury to believe a mother to do it?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You can never require the state to prove a motive because then you could never prove senseless killings. But motive, accident, it doesn`t matter. She committed aggravated child abuse the way she took care of this child. And all they have to do is prove that resulting in a death, you`ve got first-degree murder. Why agonize over premeditation when you have a much easier way to prove the case?

GRACE: Well, maybe because, Randy Kessler, the death penalty is back on the table.


EPISCOPO: Oh, no, no.

KESSLER: Florida`s executed more people than just about any other state since Georgia versus Gregg. But Nancy, your comments and Mr. Padilla comments illustrate my point, which is, it is easier to think maybe it was an accident. Nobody wants to believe that the mother of the child would caused the death.

GRACE: I never thought it was accident.

KESSLER: But not you. Well, you`re a prosecutor, Nancy, and you`re strong and you know what happens and knows that there are bad people, but average juror is the average American. Mr. Padilla, who knew the people, and he`s been closer to the case than any of the jurors will be, he actually thought it was an accident. So the prosecution has to prove -- and they`ve got the burden of proof. And that`s what we go back to always, they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt and they`ve got to convince all 12 jurors and this is something that`s harder to prove, that it was such a monstrosity, as opposed to maybe it was a accident and a cover-up. Which might have been easier to prove for the prosecution.

GRACE: Out to Tom Shamshak.

Tom, reportedly sources inside of the investigation say there`s overwhelming evidence against the tot mom. What does this mean to you, as a former investigator?

TOM SHAMSHAK, FMR. POLICE CHIEF, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: To me that means that there is ample evidence from the mother of the child, at the crime scene. Her fingerprints, for instance, could be on the duct tape. There could be hair that was transferred, that`s there at scene. And there could be other implements that are there. There could be a weapon of opportunity. Or some other instrument that came from the home that places that child with the mother at there -- at the two crime scenes. One, in the back of the car where the decompositional incident occurred. And the second, placing the child there in the woods.

I don`t think that we all know precisely what kind of evidence on, physical evidence, the government has. There`s a lot of hold-back evidence here, Nancy.

GRACE: Right.

And out to Doctor Arnall.

Dr. Arnall, will the skeleton alone help determine the date of death? Or do they need this entomologist and botanist?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The skeleton won`t do it, in and of itself. They need the entomologist, they need the botanist. But remember, they`ve got other types of evidence, cell phone evidence. They`re going to do time lines on each one the characters in this story, and where those time lines intersect. They`re going to use all of that information to determine time of death.

GRACE: Everyone, quick break. But at your request, new photos of the twins. I`ll put them on the web tonight. I hope you like them. Here is Lindsay (ph) wrapping Christmas presents. She now likes to wear a hat and sunglasses all of the time. This was Christmas morning breakfast. And that was Christmas Eve. I took them around the neighborhood looking at Christmas lights. More breakfast. And Christmas morning!



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tot mom Casey Anthony was hauled into court today, after a judge ruled Anthony must show up in person to wave her right to appearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony, if you can, raise your right hand if you would.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm. This matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but truth so help you god?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will ask you a few questions. First of all, tell me your name.

ANTHONY: Casey Ann Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are here to day on several motions filed by the state and by your attorney. One of the motions is for (INAUDIBLE) autopsy pictures (INAUDIBLE) motion was done in your absence. You`re aware of that, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I understand that Mr. Baez spoke to you sometime today or in court today about waiving your appearance here and about your ability to waive your appearance here for that motion, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you in fact give him authority to waive your appearance at that motion?

ANTHONY: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, thank you.


GRACE: Back to Mark Williams with WMDB News Talk 1150.

In court, it was addressed as to how the defense experts could view all the state`s evidence, all the photos, the autopsy photos, the works, the video, on a secure website. But now we are getting estimates from tabloid insiders that photos of little Caylee `s remains could go starting at $50,000. That better be some secure website.


MARK WILLIAMS, REPORTER, WMDB NEWS TALK 1150: It just makes my head spin whenever I hear figures like that. You know this website that they want to set up, this very secure website, is very similar in nature to one run by the Orange County medical examiner. It`s at least one password protected. You probably need to get two to get in. And I`ll tell you what, Nancy, if any of those 883 photographs ever got out, tens of thousands of dollars -- what would the market bear on something like that? Again, I`m just boggled by any prices that would come out.

GRACE: And what`s amazing to me is little Caylee`s remains are still sitting there in a cardboard box, in a funeral home with nothing but a security push pad, that probably says one, two, three, four security code on the back of the funeral home.

WILLIAMS: Uh-huh. And you know what`s interesting, Nancy, is I have found out that this funeral home that she`s at, the Robert Bryant Funeral Home, of the 300 block of Orange Avenue, used to be a toy store back in the `50s. Very ironic.

GRACE: Yes, it is.

Back to Jessica d`Onofrio quickly, from WKMG, who broke this story.

A stunning look inside the investigation, the theory the state is going to put out at trial. Jessica, you`ve been working with the police for some time. Do you have any doubts about your source?

D`ONOFRIO: Oh, no, not at all. And this isn`t coming from one source, Nancy. It`s always coming from more than one source when I report my information. But I mean what I`m hearing are the words, "overwhelming". I`m hearing, "strong evidence". And I`m hearing that when you look at all of this, in its totality, the forensic evidence, and the overwhelming circumstantial evidence, you put it all together, it points straight to Casey acting alone. And that this was done on purpose, and not by accident.

GRACE: I notice you are referring to her on a first-name basis. When did you develop that friendship?


GRACE: Yes. Defendant Anthony, yes.

D`ONOFRIO: I have never personally spoken to Casey Anthony. I always refer her -- refer to her as Casey. But I have never formed any kind of relationship with her at all.

GRACE: Jessica, what do you know about the possibility of an immunity deal for the grandparents? And is it still floating around that Lee Anthony may somehow be charged as an accomplice after the fact?

D`ONOFRIO: What I`m hearing from everyone I speak to, Nancy, is that there are -- there are going to be no charges brought against anyone in the Anthony family. Not Lee, not Cindy, not George. They will not be prosecuted for obstruction of justice, absolutely nothing.

GRACE: You know, to the lawyers, Allred, Kessler, Episcopo; starting with Gloria Allred.

Gloria, anything that they may have done, which I fully believe that they may have done some effort, but I just don`t believe it was with intent to cover-up. Maybe they were misled by the tot mom, but I just find it very difficult to -- to assume mal-intent on the Anthony family.

ALLRED: Well, yes, I agree with you, Nancy. In addition, though, their attorneys that - the attorneys for the grandparents are being very cautious. And, of course, asking for immunity before they talk to the FBI, before they talk to the sheriffs, just in case they might say something that would be prosecutable.

GRACE: And to Kessler and Episcopo. Kessler out of Atlanta, Episcopo in Tampa.

Joe Episcopo, the lawyer keeps saying, when they going, when he`s asked, why are you seeking immunity? He seems to suggest that the Anthonys don`t know anything about it. Well, I would be a bad lawyer. I would be derelict if I didn`t. Clients have to know, when you make a move such as asking for immunity.

EPISCOPO: Well, you want to kind of going in there with that blanket immunity in case they throw a question at you that you weren`t expecting. And you may, like Gloria said, answer it the wrong way. You only have two choices. Immunity, or taking the Fifth Amendment. To make them talk, they have got to give them immunity so they won`t rely on the Fifth Amendment.

GRACE: Well, Joe Episcopo, I understand what you are saying. But Randy Kessler, my question was, which Episcopo danced around. You`re a beautiful dancer, Joe Episcopo.

The lawyer keeps saying, he won`t say why he`s seeking immunity for the grandparents. He just keeps saying, well, it`s my job. The grandparents have got to know he`s asking for immunity on their behalf.

KESSLER: Well, I`m going to dance, too, Nancy. You know, it`s our job sometimes.

GRACE: Oh, lord.

KESSLER: We have to take the fall. Who knows, if he comes out and says, this is why we`re taking immunity and let`s the cat out of the bag then what is the point of immunity.

You know, also why is the prosecution considering immunity.

GRACE: OK, you know what, Kessler, you and Episcopo, if I`m ever charged with murder, I`m hiring you.

Gloria, what`s the straight poop? What`s the straight answer on this?

ALLRED: Well, the straight answer is that he knows what his clients are going to say. And he`s concerned. He thinks there might be some risk. And he not willing to take that risk.

GRACE: And, of course, the grandparents who have got to know he`s seeking immunity.

Everybody, right now, "CNN Heroes"


ANNOUNCER: This is "CNN Heroes."

SHAQUILLE O`NEAL: Domestic abuse is a very disturbing thing. I don`t really think a lot of women know what to do. My name is Shaquille O`Neal, my hero is Karen Earl. She helps and keeps women out of domestic violence situations.

KAREN EARL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, JENESSE CENTER: My friend brought me to Jenesse Center. She said, Karen, they need volunteers. I never knew that there were

I never knew that there were shelters that were safe houses. And I thought about, you know, my mom. I remember us having to run out of the house at midnight with the sheets wrapped around us. I know the impact it had on my mom and, of course, impact on me and my siblings. So I volunteered, and I never left. And in `97, I became the executive director.

O`NEAL: The Jenesse Center is a very comprehensive center. You can bring your children, they help you get back on your feet.

EARL: We have more than 100 beds where the women and the children can stay for two years.

We started something that we call healing through art. We try to work with that particular family to help them express what it is that they`re feeling.

O`NEAL: Ms. Earl is a tireless, fearless woman. She`s helping those in need. You get the presidential clap from me.

ANNOUNCER: Tell us about your hero at



GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories, and more important, the people who touched our lives.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): The young son of superstar actor John Travolta died while on vacation with his family. Sixteen-year-old Jett Travolta was found unconscious in the bathroom.

The death certificate lists seizure as cause of death, but we may never know all the details.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing that we can get answered to is going to bring Jett back. It remains a horrible tragedy.

GRACE: A second autopsy of little Caylee, complete.

Why are Caylee`s remains reportedly sitting alone in a cardboard box? Why not a funeral? What the hay is going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Private investigator Jim Hoover who volunteered his services to the Anthony family brought his camera equipment and tape to an Orlando law office. Detectives left with Hoover`s 10-minute video of the scene from November.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hoover says Mr. Casey told him, Caylee is dead, and I know where her remains are, and we have to go look for them.

GRACE: Stunning. If these allegations are true, that means the private eye who worked for the Anthonys knew where little Caylee`s remains are nearly a month before police did but said nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With shackles on her wrist and ankles, the tot mom arrived in court and was placed under oath.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear the testimony you`re about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When she came in, first the sound of the chains on her feet preceded her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She sat silently, did not show any emotion. A quick little smile at the end of the day to her attorney.


GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Jeremy Vrooman, 28, Sioux Falls, South Dakota, killed, Iraq. On a second tour, wanted to join the Army and follow in his brother`s footsteps. Loved outdoors, hunting, fishing, mountain biking, science, electronics, but especially playing with his children. Leaves behind parents Bruce and Lori (ph), step parents Wayne and Sue, brother, Justin, wife, Latricia (ph) and children Xavier and Jade.

Jeremy Vrooman, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from the New York control room. Good night, Liz, Brett. Who`s on the end there? Oh, Kathy. Hi, dear.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern; and until then, good night, friends.