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Nancy Grace

Anthony Attorney Rumored Seeking Entertainment Deal

Aired January 19, 2009 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.
Bombshell. Just released, an angry confrontation between tot mom Casey Anthony and grandparents George and Cindy, the tot mom claiming she`s the victim! Right. She said she is the victim. She`s still blaming the nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez, for the kidnap and murder of little Caylee, even threatens to walk out on her parents` visit when they press for answers about Caylee.

And the tot mom defense wants the trial moved out of town. Why? We also learn cops trying their best to match clothing found with Caylee`s skeleton back to clothing found in the Anthony home. And to top it all off tonight, is the tot mom defense attorney actually trying to land his own TV entertainment deal?


CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: She could be out of the country or anywhere.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Mom, I don`t want to...


CASEY ANTHONY: ... have us go into the same thing that...



CASEY ANTHONY: ... so please stop it!

Do you understand how I feel? You don`t understand! Everybody wants me to have answers. Do you really understand how I feel in this? I don`t have any answers because I don`t know what`s going on. I`m frustrated and I`m angry. I have no one to talk to! Nobody`s letting me speak.

I don`t want to be one of those thousands of parents that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their child again.

I have no one to comfort me but myself.

I need to be looked at as a victim. I sat with Jose and I watched that episode of NANCY GRACE and the stuff that was being said about Mom and being said about me.

The media`s going to have a frickin` field day with this.


GRACE: And tonight, the search for an 11-year-old Kansas boy placed in a foster/adoptive home. His disappearance only comes to light when his adopted sister calls the state to ask what became of him.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A sudden break in the case of a missing Kansas boy, Adam Herrman, who disappeared over 10 years ago but was never reported missing. The chief prosecutor in the case says Adam`s parents are now suspects in the boy`s disappearance and they could face first-degree murder charges. Acting on a tip, authorities found items of interest in an area where Adam used to live with his family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives from three area police forces searched a field in Towanda, looking for a possible gravesite or the remains of Adam Herrman. Even if detectives don`t find a body, it wouldn`t keep the district attorney from filing murder charges in the case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators won`t reveal what they found but said chemical tests may be conducted on those items. Members of Adam`s family have allegedly witnessed Adam being severely abused at the hands of his mother, including locking him in the bathroom and forcing him to sleep in the bathtub.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doug and Valerie Herrman never reported their adopted son missing, claiming Adam ran away after he was hit with a belt and they feared they would lose their other foster children if police found out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Adam`s parents had told relatives that the boy was returned to state custody because of his behavior, all the while collecting money from the state as if he was still living there.


GRACE: Well, they`re lying. There`s no two ways about that.

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. New stunning and disturbing meetings between tot mom and George and Cindy Anthony behind bars, the tot mom even threatening to walk out on her own parents when they want answers, all the while the tot mom claiming she is the victim.


CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, can someone let me -- come on! I`m going to hang up and just walk away right now.


CASEY ANTHONY: Let me speak for a second. Dad, I let everybody talk.

I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell`s going on. I`m so beyond frustrated with -- with all of this. Yes, I know the most negative stuff that`s being said and it`s sickening. It`s disgusting, and people really need to get a life.

Right now, I`m so hurt by everything, I don`t even know what to say. I can`t even swallow right now, it hurts. I can`t even think straight at this moment. I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.

Life`s not fair. People aren`t always going to be nice. If they have nothing positive to say, need to shut up.

This is the most agitated and frustrated that I`ve been.

I`ll try to help them in whatever way that I can, but if they come in here attacking me, they`re not getting (DELETED). Sorry.

My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me!


CASEY ANTHONY: I may have been the boss walking in here, but the roles have surely changed.


GRACE: If she can`t swallow, then why is she ordering up all those snacks and treats for herself on a weekly basis?

Out to Rory O`Neill with Westwood One radio, joining us from Florida. Rory, what`s the latest? What can tell you tell me about the possibility that attorney Jose Baez is seeking an entertainment deal?

RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE RADIO: Well, good evening, Nancy. Yes, there,are some reports coming out tonight that Baez perhaps is engaging in some type of a deal that would be contingent on the outcome the case. Now, exactly what that means is a little uncertain. And what -- and any type of deal like that is strictly prohibited by the Florida bar. So we`re certain to get denials from him starting tomorrow.

GRACE: Kathi Belich with WFTV, an entertainment deal? Are we talking about TV? And contingent on whether he wins or loses? Isn`t that, if it`s true, a conflict of interest, a huge conflict of interest?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, I think that`s what the concern is. There have been rumors for months that he might be steering this case in the direction as to what would make a better story. A trial would add more drama to the story. There have been concerns and rumors. It`s just risen to a level now where, apparently, a complaint was made with prosecutors. Prosecutors haven`t decided whether they`ll...

GRACE: A complaint?

BELICH: ... ask for a hearing to get to the bottom of it.

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. You said a complaint with the prosecutors. Is it a bar complaint, or has someone just simply called the prosecutor`s office?

BELICH: I think it`s a call to the prosecutor`s office.

GRACE: And from who?

BELICH: That`s unclear.

GRACE: Well, what are our choices, Kathi Belich? Who do we believe is suggesting Jose Baez has an entertainment deal?

BELICH: I think people close to the Anthony family are concerned about that. I think there have been rumors flying about that and concerns flying about that for months. And as I said, it seems to have risen to a level of a complaint to prosecutors. And they`re not -- haven`t decided whether they will actually ask for a hearing so that everybody can get to the bottom of it.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Sharon in Wisconsin. Hi, Sharon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been watching this ever since this all started. And do you think that Casey is finally cracking? I mean, the way she`s acting, do you think she`s finally cracking to where she might...

GRACE: Hold on, Sharon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... say anything?

GRACE: You mean fussing (ph) out her parents? Is that what you`re talking about?


GRACE: You mean fussing out here parents?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you know, she hasn`t said anything since she`s been in jail, and now she`s kind of being obnoxious on TV.

GRACE: Well, do you believe that`s really a change in her behavior?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don`t, but...

GRACE: Me, either.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think she`s, like, psychologically maybe cracking up to where she might tell the truth?

GRACE: I don`t see it, Sharon in Wisconsin. I wish that would be true, but I don`t see it.

Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, to your knowledge, has there been any change in her position? I mean, in these new jailhouse -- newly released jailhouse tapes, doesn`t she still blame the nanny?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes. And you have to remember that these tapes, while they just were released, they were actually taken way back in August. So this isn`t some conversation that she just had. While we`ve just gotten our hands on these videos, these really portray how she was thinking way back in August. So it`s not an exact up-to-date image of how she`s thinking at this moment. This is how she was thinking way back in August.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who actually helped look for little Caylee. Leonard, what about it? Do you think there`s any way this mom is going to crack and tell the truth?


GRACE: No way.

PADILLA: She`s already -- she`s already made up her mind. What she has said already, what she`s relayed either to Lee or to her attorney, it`s not going to change. She`s going to stick with it to the end.

GRACE: Just released, bombshell, jailhouse tapes where the tot mom actually says she is the victim. Take a listen.


CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down, baby.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk, then...

CINDY ANTHONY: All right. I`ll listen to you.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... give me three seconds to say something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Go, sweetheart.



CINDY ANTHONY: I was in Lake County two days ago.


CINDY ANTHONY: Is there anything there?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom! I`m sorry. I love you guys. I miss you...

CINDY ANTHONY: All right, sweetheart. Here`s Dad. Hold on.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`m going to hang up and just walk away right now because...

CINDY ANTHONY: No, please, don`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... I`m frustrated and I`m angry and I don`t want to be angry. This is the first time I`ve truly, truly been angry this entire time. But I`m so beyond frustrated with -- with all of this that I can`t even swallow right now, it hurts.


GRACE: Well, all those snacks have got to be going somewhere. We`ll be back in 30 seconds.



GRACE: Lawyers Anne Bremner, Randy Zelin, Eleanor Dixon. Anne, Bremner, a TV deal based on how the case comes out? I don`t think I`d like that...


GRACE: ... if I were looking at the death penalty.

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, absolutely not. I mean, this is something where you stand in the shoes of your client. And the fact is, you don`t stand in the shoes of "Inside Edition" or "Entertainment Tonight" or "Showbiz Tonight" or anybody else. It`s a clear conflict of interest.

GRACE: Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: I completely agree. And if there`s a law against it, he should be prosecuted.

GRACE: Randy, if there`s a law against it? Of course it is. It`s called the Ethical Canons.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s a disaster. And if I`m the prosecutor I don`t want to try this case again based upon ineffective assistance.



CASEY ANTHONY: You guys have given everything to the police. They`re not helping us. It`s obvious. We know their intentions. So I`m sorry. I`ve helped in every way that I possibly can since the day I got here.

GEORGE ANTHONY: OK, let me ask...

CASEY ANTHONY: They didn`t even give me 24 hours to help them, the police, without putting me here. So it`s obvious where everybody`s intentions lie. I know you guys want Caylee. I want Caylee more than -- than anybody can understand, but I can`t do anything. I can`t do anything from where I`m at.



CINDY ANTHONY: Do you think that she could be out of country or anywhere?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t want to...


CASEY ANTHONY: ... have us go into the same thing that it`s always been.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know. I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: So please stop it! This is why I chose -- this is one of the main reasons that I chose Dad is because he won`t sit there and keep asking me the same questions 500 times over, like you and Lee have done.



CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell`s going on. I don`t know what`s going on. My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me! You don`t understand. Everybody wants me to have answers. I don`t have any answers because I don`t know what`s going on.

I have no one to talk to, except Jose when he comes. It`s the only person that I can talk to right now because I can`t even say anything to you guys, besides telling you that I love you, I want Caylee, things like that, and that`s not even getting put on the air, which it should be. It`s everything else, everything that I`m not saying.

That`s why I haven`t been calling. That`s why I haven`t been taking calls, because haven`t I said that we weren`t going do that because I`m trying to make sure that I`m not going to get anybody anything else to throw against me. And even with me giving them nothing, they`re still doing it.


GRACE: There you heard the tot mom behind bars in an angry confrontation with her parents. And she actually says, Mom, this is why I don`t want to talk to you, because you keep asking me questions. Elizabeth, do you have that sound? Let`s listen.


CINDY ANTHONY: Do you think that she could be out of country or anywhere?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t want to...

CINDY ANTHONY: I know, I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... (INAUDIBLE) go into the same thing that it`s always been.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know. I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: So please stop it! This is why I chose -- this is one of the main reasons that I chose Dad is because he won`t sit there and keep asking me the same questions 500 times over, like you and Lee have done.


GRACE: What about it, Dr. Leslie Austin?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: ... totally consistent. I`m sure she sees herself as the victim, but the same denial she`s been in since the very beginning. It`s completely consistent with a sociopathic personality pattern.

GRACE: OK, you know, I don`t know what you just said, but what I`m asking about is -- she says, Mom, I don`t want to talk to you because you keep asking me questions.

AUSTIN: Right. She...

GRACE: That`s why I want to talk to Dad.

AUSTIN: Right. She wants to be left alone. She really believes she`s the victim. It`s a sociopathic point of view. It`s not reality.

GRACE: Was that the way it was inside the home, Leonard Padilla, when you were there?


GRACE: Explain.

PADILLA: I`m telling you -- I`m telling you they wouldn`t confront her. They wouldn`t challenge her. Many times, there was the ability for her to jump up and say, Well, let`s go find Caylee, Let`s do this, let`s do that, but she never did. And nobody confronted her, not Lee, not her dad, not George`s friend and certainly not Cindy. Nobody confronted her.

GRACE: Here is more of the stunning jailhouse video showing the confrontation between the tot mom and her parents.


CINDY ANTHONY: None of us have anything right now, Casey.

CASEY ANTHONY: But you guys have each other. You`re sitting next to Dad. You still have Lee. You have access to our community, to our family and friends, to our house. You`re taking for granted the fact that I have no one to comfort me but myself and the occasional visit, which has to be business for the sake of finding Caylee. So yes, I may look like I`m in charge. Wrong. I`m completely pushed away from everything.



GEORGE ANTHONY: How did you get through last Saturday?

CASEY ANTHONY: I didn`t. I spent the day almost completely by myself with my head under the covers. I read my Bible almost the entire day. I was miserable, just completely and utterly miserable, just like I have been the entire time. That was the first time outside of our visits that I`ve really shown any emotion, and I was open and I didn`t care just because I couldn`t hold anything back. I broke down. It was the first time that I truly, truly broke down. And it hurt and I`m still recovering from that. I`ve been hearing about the fact that Mom was making chili and there was probably a bunch of people at the house.


GRACE: Oh, darn, she missed a party at the house, a chili party. She`s talking about what would have been little Caylee`s 3rd birthday, but according to prosecutors, that never happened because she murdered little Caylee.

To Eleanor Dixon. Do you think a jury will ever hear all this intense self-absorption?

DIXON: Probably not. I bet all these videotapes will be kept out of evidence...


DIXON: ... but you never know. Well, because they`re private, to some extent, conversations, but they don`t go to prove her motive and any of that, as far as the crime is concerned.

GRACE: Well, doesn`t her demeanor and her continued explanation that nanny Zenaida Gonzalez did this -- wouldn`t that be probative?

DIXON: It might be probative, that small part of what she said to her parents. But I bet the jury`s going to see her demeanor in the courtroom all over the place.

GRACE: Look -- look, do you see her shaking her fist at her own mother? And yet George and Cindy Anthony continue to support her, even publicly stating they also believe Zenaida Gonzalez stole the little girl and killed her.

Out to the lines. Stephanie in Florida. Hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. This goes to the question of effective counsel. Would any lawyer want to keep this circus going and not have Casey settle at all and not even bring that up to her?

GRACE: Some lawyers would. Let`s go out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon from Atlanta, joining us tonight in our Manhattan studios, high- profile lawyer Anne Bremner in the Seattle jurisdiction, and Randy Zelin, veteran defense attorney also in New York. What about it, Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: Well, absolutely. And the fact is, it`s like, you know, I`m on TV, therefore I am. This case -- the only way that the lawyer stays in the spotlight is if the case goes to trial. And I`m reminded of that Oscar Wilde quote, I`m always thinking...

GRACE: Oh, no. No, please! Not another quote!

BREMNER: Nancy, but I`m not quoting our forefathers on the eve of our inauguration. I`m talking about Oscar Wilde this time...


GRACE: Go ahead. Get it out of your system.

BREMNER: I am. But thank you. But I`m always thinking about myself, and I expect everyone else to do the same. That`s what this is, a bonfire of the vanities Florida style, and it`s got to stop.

GRACE: So Randy Zelin, let`s translate that into trial tactics. If he wants the best possible deal for his client, he needs her to `fess up and take a plea on, maybe they`ll throw them a bone and give them voluntary 20 years to serve. I don`t think it`s going to happen. I think they`re going to go for murder one. And with this continued behavior, I think the death penalty could be back on the table, Randy.

ZELIN: Well, I think part of the problem here as far as plea negotiations is that the prosecution has done a lousy job of not giving her any incentive. Given the fact that they`ve taken the death penalty...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, wait!

ZELIN: ... off the table...

GRACE: Let me see your face, please. Zelin, did you say that it`s the prosecutor`s fault because they haven`t offered a sweetheart deal?

ZELIN: I agree. That`s exactly what I`m saying!

GRACE: No, did you just say that?

ZELIN: Yes, that`s what I`m saying.


ZELIN: If you have the death penalty on the table, and now all of these new -- this new evidence that perhaps Mr. Baez has got some side deal going on -- this is a disaster. What you need to do is, you`ve got to get the death penalty on the table. You`ve got to get rid of these lawyers working for free. Now you really put her back up against the wall.

GRACE: Eleanor?

DIXON: I didn`t think it was the prosecutor`s job to offer them a sweetheart deal. It`s our job to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, and it`s murder in this case.

GRACE: I want to go back to the possible TV deal. Kathi Belich with WFTV, I understand it`s a media entertainment deal the lawyer allegedly is seeking. Is it TV? Is he going to be the next Judge Judy?

BELICH: I don`t know if...

GRACE: I better call Judge Judy tonight and warn her.


BELICH: I don`t know if there are specifics about that. I think there are concerns and possible rumors about that. I don`t know how -- I don`t know the specifics.


CINDY ANTHONY: Do you think she`s going to change her mind and let her -- I mean, what can I say to her on the air? Because I can get one person to let me say what I need to say or what you want me to say to Zanny. What do you want me to tell her that`s going to make her bring her back?

CASEY ANTHONY: Just tell her that we forgive her. All we want is -- is our Caylee. That`s it.


CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, that`s -- again, that`s all I can think of. That`s all I can (INAUDIBLE)



CASEY ANTHONY: I need to be looked at as the victim because I`m just as much of a victim...


CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you, and it hasn`t been portrayed that way and it probably won`t be. But I know that and at least there are other people that know that and understand that.


GRACE: OK. To Julie in Kentucky. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. And I want to make a quick comment first.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t understand George and Cindy because I have a 2-year-old son, and I lived with my parents for six months while he was born because husband`s a truck driver. And they don`t go a day without speaking to him. So I don`t understand why they didn`t turn him (SIC) in sooner. And my question is, has George and Cindy spoken to Casey since the body has been found?



CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Do you think she`s going to change her mind and let her -- I mean, what can I say to her on the air? Because I can get one person to let me say what I need to say or what you want me to say to Zanny.

What do you want me to tell her that`s going to make her bring her back?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Just tell her that we forgive her. That all we want is -- is our Caylee. That`s it. That`s all.

CINDY ANTHONY: I said that yesterday.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, that`s -- again, that`s all that I can think of. That`s all that I can say.

This is, seriously, the first time that I`ve been angry. That I have been this frustrated to where I -- I can`t even think straight at this moment. Throughout this entire thing. I was pissed off that day at the police station, I was mad when all of that happened, but I tried to look at things subjectively and this entire time I haven`t sat in my room for the entire month and been mad. Not once, not one time.

But right now, this is the most agitated and frustrated that I`ve been even when I sat with Jose and I watched that episode of NANCY GRACE and the stuff that was being said about mom and being said about me and Tim and everybody else and stuff that I`ve heard, it`s frustrated me but I`ve let it go.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Out to Rory O`Neill with Westwood One Radio.

Rory, what can you tell me about reports that clothing -- and this is from the Anthonys` attorney, former attorney. What about clothing found with Caylee`s body that police were trying to match up to clothing or something in the Anthony home.

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, WESTWOOD ONE RADIO, COVERING STORY: Well, this is from the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, the parents of Casey and grandparents to Caylee. The clothing in question is clothing that was recovered from her body or from the scene of -- where her bones were discovered.

This was a search warrant that was executed at the house, right after the bones were discovered. They were trying to find clothing in the home that may have matched the clothing at the scene and they also -- we might learn more about exactly what was collected this week from the evidence list that was on that search warrant.

GRACE: Why? Why do you think that we`ll find out more about what was taken out of home?

O`NEILL: That`s one of the pieces of information that`s expected to go public this week and be released by the court.

GRACE: To former NYPD deputy inspector Ron Shindel. Ron, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the possibility, the -- report that are surfacing, police found clothing in the bag along with Caylee`s skeleton and they`re trying to match it up to clothing in the home.

RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, that makes sense. You know you want to see what evidence you have at the scene and you want to try to match it up with evidence that`s known in other places to try to show some connection between what they found at the scene and the home. That makes total sense, Nancy.

GRACE: And Ron, very quickly, we know that more discovery is going to be released this week. That would include the search warrant from the home and the return. Explain what those are.

SHINDEL: Well, the search warrant from the home is going to show everything that they`ve taken out of there. They`re going to let -- through discovery, they`re going to release it and we`re going to find out more details, more intimate details about each piece of evidence that`s going to come out.

GRACE: You know, typically, Eleanor Dixon, police have a search warrant. They go to a judge -- tell the judge why they`ve got to go into the home and they`ve got to articulate, specifically, what they are looking for in the home and why they think it would still be there. If they find other items of interest while they are lawfully there, they can seize that. The search return is a list of what is taken from the home.

What do you make of trying to match up items to what they found along with Caylee`s skeletons?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, think it might show you where the murder also took place. It could be something in the home that shows, maybe the murder took place there, as opposed to the trunk of the car. So you never know.

But even more interesting in the body of the search warrant, will give facts leading up to the reasons why the police want to search the home.

GRACE: What about it, Anne Bremner?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think as I look at this the best defense now is to look at a nondeath penalty case. Remember in the Jessica Lunsberg case, Nancy, we had the whole issue, a non-unanimous jury in a death penalty case in Florida, the only state where that`s an issue.

GRACE: OK, what we were talking about is the search warrant and the return...

BREMNER: I know. I was -- OK. I`ll go back to the search warrant and the return, Nancy. In the fact that that`s absolutely right and the return shows the items that come back from the search warrant. You have to stay in the four corners of the search warrant.

In terms of what you`re taking, you can always go back again. Some cases have hundreds of search warrants.

GRACE: Randy Kessler, attorney for the Anthonys also stated he did not see anything about duct tape being searched for or found in the home.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, this is just another strange thing. This is something else for the defense to use. I mean the.


ZELIN: You`re going to have a treasure trove of information coming from the affidavit in support of the search warrant.

GRACE: A treasure trove. Did you just see the bags taken out of home? That`s a treasure trove of evidence.

ZELIN: And what have they gotten from that when you.

GRACE: Well, a murder one indictment to start with.

ZELIN: Well, and you know something? Right now, do you really think that murder one indictment is going to hold up?


ZELIN: There`s no proof that she intentionally murdered this child. In fact right now she`s still presumed innocent.

GRACE: How do you explain the duct tape around the mouth?

ZELIN: That could have gone on a wild prosecution theory. The best -- the best theory is, that it was done to quiet the child. Not to kill the child.

GRACE: Randy, do you have children?

ZELIN: Yes, I do, I have three children.

GRACE: OK, and I`m sure they made a lot of noise. Have you have ever put duct tape around their mouth?

ZELIN: You`re asking me, not as a human being, not as a defense lawyer. They`re two completely.

GRACE: Is that a yes or a no?

ZELIN: Absolutely never ever.

GRACE: Why? Didn`t you want them to be quiet?

ZELIN: It would be silly for even.

GRACE: What?

ZELIN: . articulate a reason for it.

GRACE: Yes, just as silly as your last answer was.

ZELIN: Absolutely not.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Patty in Florida. Hi, Patty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, according to the tape that we were just watching.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was done in August. She had only been charged with child neglect or child abuse at that time, but she said she couldn`t say anything because it would be used against her if it went to trial.

GRACE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So was she planning on taking the original charge to trial?

GRACE: It`s my understanding that she was.

What about it, Drew Petrimoulx?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, she maintain -- her lawyer has maintained that she is innocent in that trial as well. We don`t know how exactly she is because it seems like there`s pretty solid evidence against her with her -- video of her going shopping, basically, on her friend`s -- on her friend`s account.

So it doesn`t seem very likely that she`s innocent in that but she maintains that she is and her lawyer maintains that he`ll prove that she is in the court of law.

GRACE: And to Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist, joining us out of Denver.

Dr. Arnall, thank you for being with us. Still no funeral in sight and the defense claims they`ve got to wait on toxicology results. Toxicology only comes from tissue. So why can`t they bury the bones? They`ve done their own autopsy. Why can`t they have their a funeral?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: They may be waiting for the prosecution expert to commit themselves, see what they`ve said in writing, and look for specific details to either support or contradict what the prosecution expert commits in writing.

GRACE: Excellent response. Now I -- get a glimpse into their thinking.

Stunning new jailhouse tapes. Take a listen.


CINDY ANTHONY: You`ll be fine once Caylee`s found.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I understand that. Do you understand my position on this? You guys expect me to have a thousand answers and I have nothing. I`ve been here a month. Out of contact with everybody except you guys on the rare occasion that I get to see you and my attorney.

Do you -- do you understand? What am I supposed to learn from that? What am I supposed to learn from that? The first week and a half, yes, I tried to help you guys backtrack. Again, that`s all I could do was backtrack. I can`t backtrack on anything. A month, I`ve been removed from the situation. You guys are not understanding my side on this and I`m sorry.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, I understand. We need to have something to go on.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry. I`ve been here a month. I`ve been here a month today. Do you understand how I feel? I mean, do you really understand how I feel in this? I`m completely, completely out of the loop with everything. The only information I get is when I see my attorney. That`s it.


CASEY ANTHONY: Outside of that, I have nothing to go on. Every day I have to sit here and wait and wonder. I wonder if something`s going on. I wonder -- I`m wondering if there is something new.


GRACE: And very quickly, Kathi Belich, WFTV, the defense wants to take the trial out of town. To where?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: We`ve heard, possibly, Jacksonville, possibly Miami. I`ve heard speculation he wants to go where they don`t trust law enforcement because he has to attack the evidence. Don`t know. He hasn`t filed the paper work yet.

GRACE: Everybody, we`re going to break. We are taking your calls live. But right now a special get-well to Alabama friend of the show, Jordan Brooks. Jordan is fighting pancreatic and kidney cancer.

Jordan, you are an inspiration to us. Please stay strong.

And tonight, happy birthday to a Vietnamese friend of our show, Mikey Batek.

Happy birthday, Mikey.


CINDY ANTHONY: Do you still think she`s OK?

CASEY ANTHONY: I know in my heart, mom. I know in my gut she`s all right. I can feel it. Every day that gets stronger and I still know she`s coming home. I can still feel that, that she`s coming home.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The chief prosecutor in the case of a missing Kansas boy say the parents are now suspects in his disappearance. 11-year-old Adam Herrman disappeared from his Wichita area May of 1999. Only problem is, Adam`s parents never reported him missing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The district attorneys admit it appears there`s already enough evidence to arrest them on something. But she says she won`t until the investigation is completed. She says she wants to make sure one jury hears all the charges connected to this case at one time. Eliminating any possibility of double jeopardy and clearing any possible due process hurdles.


GRACE: The adoptive/foster parents continue to collect checks for taking care of this little boy to the tune of $80,000. Years passing by after he disappeared, according to them.

Out to Julie Clements, editor with the "El Dorado Times." Julie, thank you for being with us. What happened?

JULIE CLEMENTS, EDITOR, EL DORADO TIMES, COVERING STORY: Well, it looks like they`re still investigating this case. It broke probably about five weeks ago when the police received a tip, an anonymous tip, through the Missing Exploited Child`s line in Wichita. This boy had been missing for about 10 years now. It was reported.

GRACE: Take a look, everyone, at this little boy. This is what he looked like when he went missing. It`s my understanding -- out to Eleanor Dixon, Anne Bremner and Randy Zelin -- that police only became aware he was missing when his adoptive sister called the state to find out what became of her little brother that her parents took in so many years ago.

And they said, oh, well, he was still in the home. And she says, well, no. He`s been gone for many, many years. Now the parents are not charged with anything yet, Anne Bremner. What do you make of it.

BREMNER: Well, at least there`s a price, of course, with the collection of the money. But I think -- some of the crimes on neglect have statute of limitation right now and then you`ve got to look at it. If you`re going to go with some kind of homicide, that`s going to be a quantum leap and of course double jeopardy will attach if you fall short of it which they will may in charging right now on lack of evidence.

GRACE: To Julie Clements with the "El Dorado Times," Julie, didn`t the sister, the adoptive sister, and others state that they observed the parents abusing this little boy?

CLEMENTS: Yes, there has been reports from family members that they have seen abuse, such as locking him in the bathroom and handcuffing him in there. Parents said it was to keep him from running away. But there`s definitely been reports of -- that abuse has been witnessed.

GRACE: Joining me right now is the biological mother of Adam Herrman, Gerri George, is with us.

Miss George, thank you for being with us.

GERRI GEORGE, MOTHER OF MISSING BOY, ADAM HERRMAN: Thank you for me allowing me on her.

GRACE: Tell me, when did you learn Adam was missing?

GEORGE: I would say around the first part of January when my biological daughter Tiffany had called me.

GRACE: Tell me something, Miss George, why did you give him up for adoption?

GEORGE: I did not give him up for adoption.


GEORGE: The Department of Social Service took him away on the grounds that I had hurt my oldest daughter. They said that once you have one child removed, they shall all be removed.

GRACE: Did you keep up with him over the years?

GEORGE: After my rights was terminated, I was able to see him one more time but at -- when my rights was terminated the courts had informed me that if I saw him again, I will go to prison. To protect my children I stayed away.

GRACE: What have you done, if anything, since you learned he has been missing all these years?

GEORGE: I have been appearing on different shows. Like News Channel 9 and Colorado 3 in Wichita. Phone call on "LARRY KING." Now I`m getting ready to do a "Dr. Phil Show" tomorrow, taping that. I pray every day. I try to figure out where he might be at.

GRACE: Let me go to the lawyers very quickly. Eleanor Dixon, Anne Bremner, Randy Zelin.

Eleanor, where was DFAC, Department of Family and Children Services? I mean you work for the state, I worked for the state many, many years and it pains me because they are an arm of the state.

Did you know, Eleanor, that there were complaints about abuse in the home? They took the child out and they put him back in? Now, he`s dead. Where were they when this boy was chained to the bathroom sink being beaten and starved?

DIXON: Well, Nancy, they`re supposed to check a case.

GRACE: I know what they`re supposed to do, Eleanor.

DIXON: And they didn`t do that, and they can also be found responsible.

GRACE: But they never are, Eleanor. DFAC drops the ball. Children die. And they just continue going to work and drinking their coffee and eating their doughnut.

Please explain it to me, Eleanor. Have you have seen this boy? Liz, show her the little boy again. Ten years he`s been gone. Nobody says a darn thing.

DIXON: And, Nancy, that was the tragedy with a lot of things in DFAC. And lawyers have sued DFAC and come to the states and said you`ve got to make it better and unfortunately their excuse is, well, we`re overworked, we`re underpaid which is true to some extent.

GRACE: Well, so are we as prosecutors.

DIXON: Exactly. But again it is a problem that we see system-wide with DFAC but there are also a lot of good officers out there with DFAC.

GRACE: Yes, OK. Thanks. I didn`t ask you to give me a glowing report about the good officers. I know there are some. What I`m trying to find out, Randy Zelin, is can action be taken against Department of Family Children Services who dropped the ball?

ZELIN: Look, it`s not going to bring Adam back.

GRACE: Yes, no?

ZELIN: Assuming something happened to him, but absolutely, yes. They`re negligent. They had an obligation, a duty, to this child. They completely blew off of that duty. And as a result, you can make an argument, that`s why 10 years now this child`s gone.

GRACE: What was the nature of the alleged abuse? Again the parents have not been charged with the murder or kidnap of this child as of tonight.

Julie Clements, what`s nature the alleged abuse against them?

CLEMENTS: What I`ve heard reports from are -- like I said the locking in the bathroom. Also possibly beating him by the adopted mother. Mainly fist abuse, you know, things people said.

GRACE: No, I don`t know. According to our reports, spanking with belt, kicking, punching, stepped on him with heels, threw him up against the wall, chained him to the bathroom, locked in the bath room.

There`s not how a child shall be treated, 11 years old at the time of his disappearance. But this had been going on for some time.

Out to the lines, Valerie in North Carolina. Hi, Valerie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You`re my hero. We watch you every night.

GRACE: I don`t deserve that, but thank you, and thank you for watching. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, my question is why did social services never go to that home and why did the parents continue to get money and why did the schools not noticed him getting beaten? I mean, this is not right.

GRACE: No, it`s not, and to you, Eleanor Dixon, teachers have a legal duty if they see bruises or suspect abuse to turn in the parents, to at least report the alleged possible abuse. I mean, this child has been failed on so many levels. And now he`s dead.

DIXON: And it`s awful. And DFAC should be held accountable and responsible.

GRACE: And very quickly, Anne Bremner, what about it?

BREMNER: Well, absolutely. But -- this whole case cries out for answers from even -- the parents all the way to the state, all authorities, it`s just horrific.


GRACE: We stop now to remember Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the great civil rights leader who lost his life in the pursuit of justice for all Americans.


MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR., CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: We`ve got to give ourselves to this struggle until the end. Nothing would be more tragic than to stop at this point in Memphis. We`ve got to see it through.

And all the world today knows that we are here and we are standing before the forces of power in the state of Alabama saying we ain`t going to let nobody turn us around.

Like anybody, I would like to live a long life, longevity has its place. And I`ve seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight that we, as a people, will get to the promised land.


GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Jonathan Menke, 22, Madison, Indiana, killed Iraq. A National Guard, military policeman, trained Iraqi police, joined the National Guard junior year of high school. Honor student with a booming voice.

Loved musical theater, football, track, leaves behind parents Dan and Paula, sisters Nicole and Kristen, brother Matthew.

Jonathan Menke, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Florida friend of the show, Heather, and New York friend of the show, Stephanie.

Aren`t they beautiful?

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.