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Nancy Grace

Heart-Shaped Sticker Found Over Mouth on Caylee`s Skull

Aired January 21, 2009 - 20:00   ET


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is shocking, Nancy. Thank you. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.

Bombshell. We obtain brand-new police documents inside the investigation, stunning details revealed in the last hours. Little Caylee`s remains, her tiny skeleton double-bagged like she`s trash! Also used, a laundry bag. Certainly, that laundry hamper bag is traceable. And a heartbreaking touch added to the murder scene, a child`s heart-shaped sticker purposely placed over the duct tape on little Caylee`s mouth, placed there clearly by the killer.

And did tot mom callously joke about feeding Caylee baby medicine to knock her out? We have evidence she did. And is the bar investigating tot mom`s defense lawyer?


CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I don`t want to be here so that I can be at home so that I can get Caylee back faster. That`s the only reason. That`s all I care about.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigative documents show duct tape was found on the mouth area of the skull later identified as little Caylee`s. CSI experts even had to cut hair attached to the skull just to remove the duct tape. When the remains were brought to the lab, investigators discovered that a heart-shaped sticker had been intentionally placed on the duct tape. Along with the remains, the black garbage bag founded in the wooded area also contained a 2-year-old`s clothing and a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t have any answers because I don`t know what`s going on! I`m frustrated and I`m angry. I have no one to talk to. Nobody`s letting me speak!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities also released two search warrants executed after the remains were found, and they detail some of the items investigators were looking for, including the clothes Caylee was wearing the day she was last seen by grandfather George Anthony.

CASEY ANTHONY: I need to be looked at as a victim because I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, stunning bombshells obtained in the last hours.


CASEY ANTHONY: My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They just released new documents showing duct tape was on the mouth area of the skull when it was found by meter reader Roy Kronk back in December. Along with the duct tape, investigators also found other items in the black garbage bag that contained some of the remains, including clothing for a toddler and a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket. Testing revealed that not only was the duct tape attached to both ends of the child`s hair, but someone intentionally put a heart-shaped sticker on the duct tape.

CASEY ANTHONY: Do you understand how I feel? You don`t understand! Everybody wants me to have answers. I don`t have any answers. I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell is going on. I`m so beyond frustrated with all of this!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The over 300 pages of new evidence shows that grandparents George and Cindy Anthony were at work and not home during the March 21st computer searches for neck breaking and how to make chloroform.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have to keep my mouth shut about how I feel and with everything else because all I need to do is give the media more stuff for the detectives and whoever else to throw back in my face when this goes to trial.


GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich joining us from WFTV. Kathi, stunning bombshells revealed inside the police investigation. Tell me where all the information came from.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: It came from, basically, documents that were released today to the public. The defense has gotten those documents recently, I believe last week. And once that happens, according to Florida law, it becomes public record.

GRACE: No, what are the documents? What are they?

BELICH: There are search warrants that have been released. There are reports of interviews with some of the witnesses, some of the phone records that have been released, those types of things.

GRACE: Take a look at this stack of documents. We have been sifting through them ever since they have been released. Importantly, in this stack of documents, the search warrant, a lot of information about what was found buried, or should I say thrown to the side of the road into a heavily-wooded area, along with little Caylee.

Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, what was inside the bag? You know what? Let`s start with the bag. I understand it was a black plastic -- a generic black plastic bag. But inside, a laundry hamper bag?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, that`s right. It was actually double- bagged. Also in there with Caylee Anthony`s remains were the shirt, shorts with vertical stripes, and the small cloth iron-type letters, and also a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket.

But one of the other things that we learned today that`s very interesting, we heard that her mouth was covered with duct tape. Investigators -- the latent imprint investigators, they found an imprint on that duct tape of a heart, and they analyzed that and they found the imprint was made by a sticker. At that scene, they also found that sticker. So they say somebody intentionally put a heart sticker over the duct tape that was actually over Caylee`s mouth inside this bag. This all came out in hundreds of pages of information, as Kathi said, that was released today.

GRACE: You know, we are just looking at just-released video behind bars of the tot mom railing on her parents, who are there just trying to help her. And if the state is correct, this is the person who put duct tape, thick industrial duct tape, across her little girl`s mouth. We learned the duct tape had to be cut away by the autopsy doctors because it was still stuck in the child`s hair.

And now we learn -- out to Stacy Dittrich -- that a heart-shaped sticker -- it`s hard to look at the tot mom and imagine her doing this.


GRACE: A heart-shaped sticker placed over the mouth on the duct tape. Stacy Dittrich, former detective and author of "The Devil`s Closet," that is some really good police work, to notice that -- first, I guess the autopsy revealed a heart-shaped imprint of a sticky, of adhesive. Can they go out and actually find the little sticker?

DITTRICH: It`s amazing police work, which is what they`ve done clear up until now. And with the adhesive on the duct tape, it tells me that it was actually -- it`s been there a while. It was old. It fell off. And for them to find that -- again, the Orange County sheriff`s department throughout this whole thing has been amazing and done a great job with this. This is just another piece of the puzzle that they`re going to solve.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Robin Sax, prosecutor and author of "Predators and Child Molesters: What Every Parent Needs to Know to Keep Kids Safe," Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and Paul Batista, defense attorney in New York and author of "Death`s Witness."

Robin Sax, a lot of forensic evidence can be gained from not only the duct tape but that sticker. Explain.

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. Well, the sticker itself, you can be able to date back and look at the adhesive to see how long maybe that sticker was put on, at what time, what -- and maybe look at that as a clue for premeditation and calculation. What information can you get about that? Not to mention the ability to then compare the sticker to whatever stickers may exist in the Anthony home.

GRACE: And we know, Renee Rockwell and Paul Batista, police went specifically to the home and got the search warrant to look for sticker books. You know, I now know from going through the child`s section in the bookstore, there are reams of sticker books for children. They went to the home looking for them.

And let`s just get real with it, Renee Rockwell. You`ve defended many, many violent felonies. How often does a random killer just bother to bury the child or discard the child with her favorite Winnie-the-Pooh blanket and some of her little favorite dolls?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, why would he do that if he was trying -- he or she was trying to get rid of all the evidence? I would be more concerned with...

GRACE: Are you telling me that a little horsie doll is murder evidence?

ROCKWELL: It could be, if it was at someone`s house and someone wanted to get rid of it. But Nancy, what`s more...

GRACE: Why would you randomly -- oh, take a look, Renee. Notice that the child`s room -- this is video we have obtained from inside little Caylee`s room -- is done in Winnie-the-Pooh motif. I don`t know if you`re familiar with that, Renee, or not, but you`re looking at Winnie-the-Pooh motif everywhere. That blanket clearly -- come on, Vegas odds -- taken out of the child`s room. Who would do that?

ROCKWELL: Nancy...

GRACE: What?

ROCKWELL: ... not who would do that. Somebody obviously did that.


ROCKWELL: That is not going to be as important, where that blanket came from, as where that duct tape came from. That`s more of a threat to the defense attorneys, whether or not they`re going to find hairs or skin cells or any type of physical evidence on that duct tape. That`s what someone else is shaking about right now, not the blanket.

GRACE: I think it all is damning, Paul Batista.

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Nancy, I don`t see that. How many millions of children are in Winnie-the-Pooh blankets? What I`d like to know, Nancy, is...

GRACE: Mine aren`t.

BATISTA: What I`d like to know is whether or not...

GRACE: Mine aren`t!

BATISTA: ... whether or not the stickers or the book of stickers was found in Casey Anthony`s home. Let`s find that out before we begin saying that this is critical evidence of her guilt. Where`s the inventory?

GRACE: OK. OK, stop. Stop right there. To Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist joining us out of LA. Stacy, please, throw me a bone here. Who else other than someone that had a relationship with the child would bother to bury her or discard her in a trash bag with her favorite blanket?

Listen, this past weekend, I took the twins to the book store in the snow. I dropped Lucy`s binkie. Can I tell you how fast I ran, backing up, up and down 7th Avenue, trying to find her favorite binkie in the snow? Long story short, who would bury the child with her favorite blanket?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Nancy, you and I are on the same page. And my theory on this is as follows. We already know that Casey Anthony has a wild fantasy life about where she works and what she does, and she probably fantasized that she was putting her child to sleep for good with her blankie.


GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: It`s just hard, I know, for you, it`s hard for us because none of us have ever been through any of this kind of stuff before, none of us, you know...

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, obviously not. And we need to stick together in this, and it`s hard for us to at this point.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, we are sticking together.




CASEY ANTHONY: ... I forgive whoever has her and that I just want her to come home. I just -- just want my baby back. That`s it.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: Do you think that they would actually do that?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know what I think anymore, Mom. Just keep saying it because it`s the truth. That`s all I want. I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you. And it hasn`t been portrayed that way and it probably won`t be, but I know that, and at least there are other people that know that and understand that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like many 2-year-olds, Caylee Anthony`s bedroom was decorated with Winnie-the-Pooh characters, all the way down to the Winnie-the-Pooh bedspread. We`ve now learned that investigators found a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket inside the same plastic garbage bag containing Caylee`s body. When the detectives returned to the Anthony family home the night after recovering Caylee`s remains, they were in search of any other Winnie-the-Pooh clothing, towels or blankets that might link back to the crime scene.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. First to Dr. Joshua Perper, renowned medical examiner out of Broward County, author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, as always, it`s an honor to have you on with us tonight. Dr. Perper, you have performed countless autopsies, well up into the thousands. Would it have been the ME, the medical examiner, that discovered the adhesive in the shape of a heart over the child`s mouth?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, this would indicate, really, there was some kind of emotional connection between the person who put the tape on the mouth and the child because an assailant, which would be indifferent to the child, wouldn`t do that. And again, the fact that this tape was around the mouth and perhaps covered the nose, as well -- this is basically the key evidence pointing to homicide.

GRACE: And Dr. Perper, how would you -- I mean, I`m got duct tape that we believe is similar to that used. How would you -- under a microscope, would you be able to determine the adhesive was in the shape of a heart?

PERPER: Well, this would be basically the responsibility of the crime lab technicians, which have the expertise and the kind of special microscope which would help them in making those determinations and helping us (ph) with their findings.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Jenny in Kentucky. Hi, Jenny.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just want to say thank you for working so hard to be a voice for victims.

GRACE: Jenny, thank you. That means a lot to me, and I appreciate you not only watching but calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I would like to know, maybe from the psychologist or maybe Leonard Padilla -- I`ve noticed when you show the tape with her parents when they`re visiting her in the jail that her father does not make direct eye contact. With him being an ex-cop, do you think he knows deep down that she could be guilty of hurting his granddaughter?

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, George Anthony has been kind of a lone voice of reason on many occasions. What do you believe?

BREMNER: He has said -- he`s told investigators, at one point, when he was questioned by them without his wife around, that he didn`t want to think that his daughter had something to do with this, but he was honest and said, I smelled a smell that I remember when I was a cop years ago, it was the smell of death and I`ll never forget it. He did come out and say that.

And there`s new evidence in these documents that were released today that showed there was a very volatile relationship between Casey and George, that they yelled at each other quite a bit. Cindy had told her co- workers that in the summer. So there was -- maybe there was friction. You know, who knows? But he had said that he had thought about that in the past, that she might have had something to do with this.

GRACE: You know, Kathi, you brought up a very interesting point. Several of Cindy Anthony`s co-workers were interrogated by police. They described around June, the month preceding the discovery that little Caylee was missing, that Cindy Anthony had been complaining, which was very unusual for her, at work about her home situation, particularly money, that George was getting tired of the tot mom being a leach, essentially.

BELICH: Yes. She was also complaining that she always was taking care of Caylee. And when a co-worker said, Well, why don`t you take custody, that co-worker told investigators Cindy said, We can`t afford it. And there was a lot of concern during that month that she was missing, before we knew she was missing, she was very concerned about what was going on, and the co-workers thought that something more should have been more done at that time.

GRACE: Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO, joining us tonight. Nikki, in addition to the Winnie-the-Pooh blanket, which was one of her favorites -- and you only learn when you have kids how important that favorite blanket is -- there was a doll. Describe.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: There was also a toy horse of sorts.

GRACE: Yes. Yes. That`s what I meant. Excuse me. Go ahead.

PIERCE: Sure. And they actually -- on the arrest affidavit, they went to the house, looking for other toy horses that looked the same. There were also some lettering, like, iron-on style lettering, they also were searching for when they executed that search warrant.

GRACE: You know, that was very, very wise. Back to Stacy Dittrich. Stacy, I`ve learned the toy horses usually come in packs. Now, say this little horse was part of a group of toy horses. What does that mean?

DITTRICH: Well, they`re going to look for the matches, just like the sticker.

GRACE: Which shows us what?

DITTRICH: Which shows us that it came from inside that house. And what I thought was interesting that they did was that they included the photographs, any photographs inside the house, which if they don`t find the missing pieces...

GRACE: Right.

DITTRICH: ... there may be photographs that they were there at some point inside that home.

GRACE: Right.

Out to the lines. Donna in Kansas. Hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How`re you doing, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first I want to you know your twins are truly blessed to be loved so much by you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then I want to know if the utility worker has ever agreed to a polygraph test to prove his story.

GRACE: Interesting. What about that, Drew Petrimoulx? She`s talking about the meter reader. Would he be, has he been subjected to a polygraph?

PETRIMOULX: I haven`t heard anything about that. The only person that I know that took a polygraph in this case is Jesse Grund, Casey`s ex- fiance. (INAUDIBLE) talked about it, Roy Kronk has not said anything about taking a polygraph test.

GRACE: And I know Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter, agreed to take a polygraph. And then as soon as he did that, they quieted down about it, Leonard. Leonard, what do you make of these new revelations?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I`ll tell you, it`s a wealth of information. And a young friend of mine, Katelyn (ph), told her dad, You know, it looks like Leonard Padilla was right on more than one issue.

You take the black plastic bag with the yellow tie on it, you take the duffel bag -- which was not a duffel bag, it was a laundry bag -- clothes in the bag -- that was very important -- and then you go to a little smiley sticker that we have on a laptop that was in her room, that Tracy had back there when she was with her -- she took it off a page of little sticky things, put it right on the laptop. Now...

GRACE: Yes, you know, Leonard, we all know you told us a lot of this information over a month ago. But I`m asking you, what do you make of, for instance, the laundry hamper bag being used? Certainly, that can be traced back to the home.

PADILLA: Absolutely, and it`s going to be. But let me -- let me -- I know that I digress a lot...

GRACE: Oh, please! No tooting your own horn again.

PADILLA: No, no, no. This is...

GRACE: Please. Stop.

PADILLA: This is about something else. It has -- it has nothing to do with it.

GRACE: Not about you. OK, go ahead.

PADILLA: It`s not about me, it`s about Kronk. The situation with Kronk -- if you look at where he described that he went into the forest...

GRACE: The meter reader.

PADILLA: White bag, not black.


CASEY ANTHONY: I want to be right there with you guys. I really do. And I know that eventually, I will be. But it can`t happen fast enough.

GEORGE ANTHONY: That`s very true. That`s very true.



CASEY ANTHONY: You`re still asking me if there`s anything that I can tell you that`s going to help, and I`m the one that can do this. I can`t. The opportunity was there that I probably could have helped. I`m trying. I was trying. There`s nothing more that I can say or do until I`m home, and even then, I don`t know what I can do from that point, but I can at least do something other than sit on my butt all day and read or look up stuff for my case because that has to be my focus right now.


GRACE: My case. My case. How about helping in the investigation revolving around her daughter`s murder?

Out to the lines. Judy in Florida. Hi, Judy.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I want to let you know my husband and girlfriend and I watch you every night. We love you and what you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want to know, is there any word on when that poor baby is going to be laid to rest?

GRACE: Oh, good Lord in heaven! What about it, Nikki Pierce?

PIERCE: That`s an awfully good question. We haven`t heard a single thing about it since we learned that this second autopsy that everyone thought they were waiting for had already been done quite some time ago. We have no idea when she`s going to be laid to rest.

GRACE: So bottom line, no word.

PIERCE: No word.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn`t you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Just fear of the unknown, fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: She told us on our visitation, our first day of visitation that she`s protecting this -- the family from physical harm, including Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

C. ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people will look at you the wrong way?

C. ANTHONY: No, sir.

CINDY ANTHONY: It just seemed like from day one you guys are building a case against Casey as a murderer. She`s not a murderer. One thing I know is she loves that child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve never lived up to your mother`s expectations, right?

C. ANTHONY: Please stop right now.


C. ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) that I would ever do anything or let any harm come to that child. She`s the one thing in this world that I love more than anything.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I want you to know you are the boss through this whole thing. OK?

C. ANTHONY: Well, no, I`m not anymore, dad. I haven`t been since I got here.

G. ANTHONY: Well, yes, you are. You are the -- think of this for a second.

C. ANTHONY: Dad -- I`ve been -- listen.

G. ANTHONY: Listen. OK?

C. ANTHONY: I`ve been thinking about it.

G. ANTHONY: No, just listen to me for a moment. OK, listen to me for one second. OK? Listen. Think of your -- you`re owning this. (INAUDIBLE) this as a huge business. Jose is one of your employees, so is the sheriff`s department, so is the FBI, so am I, so is Lee, so is mom, you know, we`re all working for you.

And if for some reason something is not being said or done, you can make a change. You`re the one that can say listen.

C. ANTHONY: Dad, I`ve told Jose.

G. ANTHONY: Please listen.

C. ANTHONY: No. I`ve given him the information to give you guys.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: We`ve also learned that soil samples were taken from the scene where little Caylee was disposed of and then all the tot mom`s shoes were taken, pursuant to search warrant from her home.

And also tonight, we learn, Kathi Belich, is it true that the tot mom actually joked about knocking Caylee out with child medicine?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Yes. According to the documents, her ex-boyfriend Ricky Morales told investigators that she had joked about using baby medication to put Caylee to sleep.

He also -- they also found actually a posting on his MySpace page win her over with chloroform, sort of a poster-like thing. He said that he put it on his MySpace page because he thought it was sort of funny. He never discussed chloroform with Casey, but he said that she had access to his computer and could have seen that and the timing would have been right, the first time she researched was March 17th and they had dated in the months before that.

GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, Dr. Perper, what medicines could be used to, quote, "knock a child out"? What child medicine?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Any -- a variety of medicine from sleeping pills or pain pills such as oxycodone or.

GRACE: No, I mean, a child, like children`s medicine. What medicine do you give a child that would knock it out? Like Tylenol? Ibuprofen? What?

PERPER: Any kinds of medication which is a pain medication or is a relaxing medication can be given to a child in a drink, in a tea, and the child can -- needs only very small amounts of any kind of medication in order to be so-called knocked of or made unconscious.

GRACE: Oh, gosh. I`m just thinking, just thinking about whether Caylee had been -- during her life, how many times she was knocked out with medicine to -- to just make her go to sleep so the tot mom wouldn`t have to deal with her.

What effect would that have on a child? Would it -- would there be any long-range effect, Dr. Perper?

PERPER: No. Well, it could be a sleeping medication, the child would just go to sleep. But this doesn`t explain why we found the tape on the mouth, which is -- put there.

GRACE: Oh no.

PERPER: Either to asphyxiate the child or to make him unable to -- cry.

GRACE: Definitely. Yes. I was not linking the two. I was referring back to allegations the tot mom had laughed and joked about putting Caylee to sleep with some type of medication, and what effect that may have on a child long-term.

I also understand, Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, that there are reports the defense attorney is under investigation by the bar association?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Right. He is under some sort of investigation, it`s not clear. We had reports that there was some kind of pending entertainment deal that he was actually in trouble for. That doesn`t appear to be what it is.

Jose Baez held a press conference today. He said it was someone that`s out to get him, someone has an ax to grind with him. It`s not something that is involved in this case. But we haven`t been able to find out exactly what he did as far as this investigation.

GRACE: Oh, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Stop everything.

Petrimoulx, are you telling me that the defense attorney Jose Baez says there`s a conspiracy against him? People are out to get him?

PETRIMOULX: Well, he says that this sort of trouble, I guess, if you can call it, with the Florida bar that he`s in, the investigation that`s sparked against him is -- was launched by someone that has some kind of ax to grind against him. He didn`t really get into specifics of exactly what he means but those were the words that he used.

GRACE: And Kathi Belich, is it true that he`s also complaining he is being discriminated against because he`s Hispanic?

BELICH: That`s what he said today. He said that he is the first Hispanic here in central Florida to handle a case of such magnitude and that he believes that`s why he`s being targeted but he said he would not do anything foolish to let everyone down and the people who.

GRACE: That is crazy.

To the lawyers, Robin Saxton, Renee Rockwell, Paul Batista.

You know, Renee, when I first started trying cases, there were hardly any women in the courtroom. All right? I don`t want to date myself, but that was a long time ago. I never thought there was a conspiracy to get me because I was a woman, because I`m a minority in that sense, a protected class.

Where is he getting this from?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I`m not sure and I`m not particularly impressed that.

GRACE: He should stop saying that right now.


GRACE: I mean, has he ever heard of Johnny Cochran, one of the greatest defense lawyers of all time, who was African-American? Hello? Nobody cares. If you win, nobody cares.

ROCKWELL: No, and I don`t think.

GRACE: As long as you win, nobody cares about anything.


GRACE: So your advice to Mr. Baez?

ROCKWELL: Oh, regarding this?


ROCKWELL: Answer the bar complaint and keep working.

GRACE: What about it, Batista?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": You know, it`s silly to vilify Jose Baez. He`s just trying to do his job, Nancy, and so far he`s doing a pretty effective one. And as to the comment about discrimination, obviously, he shouldn`t say that, obviously, it`s irrelevant. But let`s not vilify him.

GRACE: I don`t think anybody.

BATISTA: Let`s focus on what he`s doing.

GRACE: . is vilifying him, Robin Sax. He`s the one that took his foot and stuck it in his mouth.

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "PREDATORS & CHILD MOLESTERS": Well, Nancy, you`re absolutely right. Everyone who`s worked in criminal law, as some, they`ve been in the business long enough has had some sort of state bar investigation or inquiry just because of the nature of the beast.

However, there`s no one that I have heard of, at least in recent history, who`s used that as an opportunity to play the race card. I think that this is a ridiculous tactic that probably will come back to bite him in the butt.

GRACE: OK. You know what, you brought up a good point. The more people that complain about you, Robin Sax, usually means you`re probably doing a pretty good job, if you`re a criminal lawyer.

I mean, veteran criminal lawyers have stacks of complaints, and especially when somebody gets convicted, all they do is sit behind bars and think of what their trial lawyer and what the prosecutor did to get them and they file complaints.

Let`s take a listen to what Baez had to say.


JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LAWYER: I am the first Hispanic lawyer to have a case of this magnitude. And while this may not mean a lot to most of you here, it means a great deal to me. And I will not embarrass those that come after me by doing something as foolish and as unethical as what has been accused, or what I`ve been accused of.

So, as far as that`s concerned, I don`t know if you needed to hear it from my mouth, it is absolutely untrue, and it should be put to rest period.


GRACE: Well, you know, to Dr. Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist, I wouldn`t have even known about it if he hadn`t blabbed about it into a microphone. When did it all turn into, it`s about me?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know what, that`s what we`re seeing a lot in this case. I just think it`s funny that Casey ended up with an attorney who is the victim, too. Nobody is focusing on what should be focused on, which is this poor child and what`s happened with her.

GRACE: Everybody, we`re taking a quick break, but at your request, I want to show you my new photos of the twins. I`ll post them tonight. I hope you like them.

Here they are, just before they go to bed. We strolled them in a stroller. And there they are on grandmother`s piano down in Macon. Yes, when it`s cold outside, round and round we go in this wagon. And at music class. John David dancing.

Yes, we got a front row seat to the inauguration. Oh, John David playing the bongos at our Border`s Bookstore and at Monkey Joe`s riding the fire truck. Lucy gets into mommy`s jewelry after the show.



C. ANTHONY: Our family`s broken, we want to have that fixed. We know what that means, to have our family broken apart like (INAUDIBLE) it is right now by tragedy. We don`t want this any longer be a tragedy. I don`t want to be one of those thousands of parents that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their -- their child again.

With the potential of knowing that their child`s alive and that they`re with someone else, the thought of that every day makes me sick.


GRACE: Also tonight, I`ve got in my hand the work time sheets of grandfather, George Anthony, that show he was not in the home, the computer searches were run that have become part of a murder investigation. Computer searches on neck breaking, on chloroform.

What do you say to that, Robin Sax?

SAX: Well, I think looking at that, looking at the -- timing and everything, can show that perhaps Casey had some sort of specific intent when she did those searches and wanted to make sure no one was around.

However, I`m not all that personally excited about that, because, frankly, she had many opportunities to be on computers. We know she was in and out of the house at different people`s homes. So maybe there`s a correlation, but I don`t know if it really -- does all that much for my case.

GRACE: You know, I disagree with you, Robin.

Renee Rockwell, Paul Batista, first to you, Renee, you could just discounted except for -- but for -- the fact that highly -- a highly saturated concentration level of chloroform was found in the tot mom`s car. So these are not just idle searches, these are searches, according to the prosecution, that resulted in the use of homemade chloroform, for some reason, in the trunk, where the body also was, Renee.

ROCKWELL: And, Nancy, you can`t in any where in your mind imagine another person making that search besides.

GRACE: Who? George and Cindy?

ROCKWELL: A boyfriend, a boyfriend, a brother, a cousin, a neighbor.

GRACE: Pause. Pause. Paul Batista, let`s explore that.

ROCKWELL: You asked the question.

GRACE: Yes, I did, and I deserved the answer I knew I was going to get from you.

Paul Batista, let`s examine that and break it down. Number one, work records show grandfather, George Anthony, not there. Work records show grandmother, Cindy Anthony, not there. Lee Anthony, brother, doesn`t live there. What`s he going to come over just to pop on and do a Google search?

Family -- other family ruled out. Neighbors, they`re going to come over just to use the computer? I don`t see it.

BATISTA: Well, Nancy, we don`t know anything about the number of people who had access to this home. We don`t know, you don`t know, and I don`t know that it was Casey Anthony.

GRACE: I -- take that down, please. I need to see Batista.

BATISTA: . who actually was using that computer at that moment.

GRACE: Yes. Who else could it be?

BATISTA: We don`t know the habits.

GRACE: Who`s laying around on the sofa all day not working. Huh?

BATISTA: We don`t know the habits in the house. That is not, in my opinion, very critical evidence.

GRACE: Well, yes, actually, we do. We have written documentation. Three -- four people live there. One is Caylee, one is tot mom, one is George, one is Cindy.

BATISTA: And we know all of them are excluded, Nancy.

GRACE: Everybody`s gone.

BATISTA: We know all of those are excluded.

GRACE: Except the tot mom.

BATISTA: We don`t know whether there are boyfriends in the house? We don`t know whether the neighbors had access to the house, cleaning people had access to the house, all of these things are legitimate questions for her defense to raise.

GRACE: To Stacy Ditrich, former detective and author, Stacy, I hope the defense says something like that at trial, because what effect do you think that will have on a jury, to suggest somebody snuck into the house or came into the house to run a Google search?

STACY DITRICH, FMR. DETECTIVE, AUTHOR OF "THE DEVIL`S CLOSET": I think they`re going to find it as ridiculous as we do. It`s ridiculous. And any prudent person in your home, you know who has access to your home and who does not. And to suggest that this was a stranger that came in and searched their computer when she`s the main suspect, when this child ends up dead, it`s ridiculous and I don`t think anybody will buy it.

GRACE: On the other hand, the defense is going to be between a rock and a hard spot and they`ve got to come up with arguments like Batista and Rockwell just made, or else they`ve just got to go ahead and admit. They`re not going to do that.

Back to Leonard Padilla, you`ve got an interesting theory about what the duct tape will reveal?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The duct tape at the -- and it`s a gentleman that teaches one of the colleges up in the northeast that was telling me that the duct tape will reveal traces of chloroform, oxygen, nitrogen, the gases that naturally breathe, if the tape was put on prior to death.

If it was put on post-mortem, chance are that they won`t show any of these. So it will be a very telling piece of evidence when they get down to it.

GRACE: Dr. Perper, is that possible? Can the -- can the duct tape have traces of the particles and the chemical compounds that are exhaled?

PERPER: Not in my opinion, because -- no, absolutely not because the oxygen or the carbon dioxide aren`t there anyway. Chloroform probably would evaporate and would be in small amount. I don`t believe that the tape is going to show anything.

GRACE: You know, I hope Padilla`s right, but I agree with you, Doctor. I just don`t think they`re going to find it, especially after Hurricane Fay has been through, all of this has been under water, which reminds me -- back to Kathi Belich with WFTV, items found in the bag included clothing, I believe, a pair of shorts.

Were the clothes still on the skeleton or were they thrown in with the skeleton?

BELICH: I don`t believe I saw anything specific in the documents that would show that. I just understand that they were in the bag along with the Winnie the Pooh blanket as well. I didn`t see anything specific that explained the relationship between all of these items that were in the bag.

GRACE: To Dr. Perper, if the child had been wearing the clothes, since we know the bones were scattered over many, many square feet, I assume the clothing would have been disassociated from the skeleton as well.

PERPER: Probably yes, but there would have been a chance of some bones to be found in the clothing, and again, the document didn`t specify that.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Eileen in Georgia. Hi, Eileen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. Thank you for calling -- taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First I`d like to tell you how much I admire and what an honor it is to speak with you, and my question is, I would like to ask -- we`re always referring to the duct tape over the mouth. Did it also cover the nasal passages from the airways to the nose, and is the death penalty still on the table?

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce, do we know whether the duct tape also covered the nose?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: We don`t have that information. The only time that the duct tape has been discussed is when they`re saying that it covered the mouth and had to be cut out because it was still connected to the hair.

GRACE: And to Eileen`s question regarding the death penalty, it was taken off the table but that was before the remains were found, Eileen. It`s entirely possible for the state to reverse that decision and go for the death penalty.

To Andrea in Florida, hi, dear. Oh it`s.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was calling to find out if the blanket that was found with the body matched what was in the house, and if they looked at the lot numbers on the bumper pads to see if they match?

GRACE: Oh, excellent question. We don`t know, but you`re absolutely right. Because all that bedding you see right there usually comes in one bag together.

Excellent question. I hope the police are listening tonight. When we get back, we`ll go to Renee in Wisconsin. Stay with us.



C. ANTHONY: You have to understand where I`m coming from in this, and obviously none of you are. By -- expecting a month, literally, out of the loop to have some sort of new insight on stuff? I mean, really?


GRACE: Straight out to Renee in Wisconsin, hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you so much for the adorable pictures of the twins.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I also have a daughter named Lucy and she will actually be 11 tomorrow.

GRACE: Happy birthday, little Lucy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, thank you. My question is, early in these jailhouse tapes, George and Cindy referenced several family friends and a few relatives that are helping with the search in support of -- Casey. Have any of these people come to visit her since she`s been incarcerated?

GRACE: Interesting question. Nikki Pierce, have any of them come to visit her?

PIERCE: She hasn`t had any visitors in a very long time, and that includes the family over the holidays. As far as we know, she has been completely without any visitors. The people that were referenced haven`t been heard from since.

GRACE: You know, we had a call the other night, went to break, I didn`t get to answer it. She asked whether the parents had been there since the body was found. The answer is no.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Private Timothy Hutton, 21, Dylan, Montana, killed in Iraq. Joined the army to follow the footsteps of father and grandfather who served. Loved fishing, dreamed of building a cabin next to a fishing stream. Leaves behind parents Sonia and Albert, sister Christine, grandparents, Karen and Marty.

Timothy Hutton, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and a special thank you tonight to the Modesto Police Department for sending me a t-shirt from their K-9 unit.

And also tonight, a special good night from Georgia, friend of the show, Chris Brown.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.