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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony`s Computer Reveals More Disturbing Images/LA Mom Falsely Claimed She Was Sexually Assault in Death of 18-Month-Old Daughter
Aired April 30, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, we learn police go high tech to analyze tot mom`s personal laptop and they hit pay dirt, tot mom`s computer allegedly revealing her collection of thousands of bizarre sayings and images that take detectives inside tot mom`s psyche, personal slogans like, quote, "Remember my name, I`ll be famous one day," "Don`t live for anyone but yourself," "A killer with the perfect weapon, crystal eyes and a heart of coal," and "She`s cold, she`s cruel, but she knows what she`s doing."
Well, it will all come back to haunt tot mom at death penalty phase. Along with morbid photos of skulls and skeletons, tot mom`s dark state of mind emerges. Do the photos and images paint a cold-blooded killer? And tonight, after a disastrous junket for PR by grandparents George and Cindy, including a botched appearance on Oprah, tot mom`s defense lawyer piles on in front of the camera. He explains tot mom`s non-stop partying in the days and weeks after Caylee disappears is, quote, "ugly coping," a mechanism he says she used to hide her own pain -- that`s right, to hide tot mom`s pain. All that pain on a stripper pole and a push-up bra?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: They got all of their information from me. Yet at the same time, they`re twisting stuff. They`ve already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee. They`ve already said that. They arrested me because they said that...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because they said that the person that you dropped Caylee with doesn`t even exist.
CASEY ANTHONY: If they would actually listen to anything that I would have said to them, they would have had their lead. They maybe could have tracked her down. They haven`t listened to a (DELETED) thing that I`ve said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s trying to pin it on anybody but herself. We see her do that constantly. She tried to pin it on Jesse Grund.
CASEY ANTHONY: I would like to see him stay as far away from you guys as possible. And I don`t know how much I trust right now, and I even told Lee that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She tried to pin it on Zanny the nanny. She tries to pin it on people who don`t even exist.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: We never really got a full description of Zanny. I know she`s got brown, curly hair.
CASEY ANTHONY: About shoulder length. She wears it straight.
CINDY ANTHONY: Where did she get the Fernandez? Where did you get the Fernandez? Why don`t you tell the camera and all the viewers out there where Fernandez came from? What`s your...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, please.
CINDY ANTHONY: ... date of birth, 10/1/1970?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rest (ph). Please. For God`s sake! This is outrageous!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a beautiful 24-year-old LA mom takes her toddler girl, 18-month-old baby Emma, to a local park, when suddenly she`s attacked from behind, a blow to the head. Hours later, she comes to, but baby Emma gone. As police scour the area for the attacker, suspicion turns back to Mommy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Law enforcement believe that this poor little girl, this beautiful little girl we`re seeing here, died at the hands of her mother by suffocation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stacey Barker first told police she was knocked out by a kidnapper and her baby girl, Emma, abducted from her car in the parking lot of a local park.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cops start talking to her. Her story is evolving and changing. Finally, that next morning, maybe six to eight hours later, she says, You know what? There was an accident. I panicked. I`ll take you to the body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body was found near a fence right off the freeway, Golden State Freeway, 5.
GRACE: And now police are investigating whether the wounds to this woman are self-inflicted -- that`s right, blows to the head she gave herself in this kidnap hoax.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The coroner`s report is still going on, but investigators do believe she was suffocated by her mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, police raid the home of Octomom. One of her 14 children turns up with a horrible black eye, his body covered in teeth marks, this after a string of 911 calls to Octomom`s home. Tonight, we have those 911 calls on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when we got here today, there were some people from social services and the police department who had been there. So can you tell us what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing. They just came over because the teacher -- the teacher (INAUDIBLE) Oh, gentle. (INAUDIBLE) He has a bite mark on his back from this guy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So then they wanted to verify to make sure that he`s OK (INAUDIBLE) being -- you know, make sure he`s being supervised enough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So did they talk to the kids or...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did they talk to the kids?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Gentle. Gentle. Be nice. (INAUDIBLE) I`m going to give you a warning. No hits. No hits. No, gentle. Be nice. No. Time out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mommy!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t do that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said Aden (ph) has a little bite mark and a little bit of a black eye. So how did he get those?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) meltdown. (INAUDIBLE) He throws himself down (INAUDIBLE) in the process of, like, throwing him on the (INAUDIBLE) on the floor (INAUDIBLE) hit his face on the desk (INAUDIBLE) They just wanted to check. They said that (INAUDIBLE) and that we`re doing great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. As we go to air, we learn police go high tech to analyze tot mom`s personal laptop and they hit pay dirt, tot mom`s computer allegedly revealing her collection of thousands of bizarre sayings and images that take detectives inside tot mom`s psyche, and it may all come back to haunt her at death penalty phase.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Casey has been steadfast in telling me that Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez is the person that took Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody else did this crime. It`s her modus operandi. We see her do it every day.
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey had to have had help, no matter what you think what the scenario might be.
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: There`s obviously a lack of aggravating factors, and I`ve never felt this was a death penalty case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the air sampling is the one area where there`s going to be a challenge, and it`s going to be a strong one because that really hasn`t been verified as a valid area of science yet. It`ll be challenged.
CINDY ANTHONY: Air samples don`t mean anything.
It smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the grandparents` statement gets in, it`s going to bolster the scientific evidence.
CINDY ANTHONY: It stunk so bad.
GEORGE ANTHONY: There was an overpowering smell (INAUDIBLE)
ANNIE DOWNING, CASEY`S FORMER FRIEND: She`s not that smart. She`s -- I mean, we all knew -- everyone knew that Casey lied. Like, everyone did. We all knew we didn`t believe her. What was the truth? We didn`t know, but there was never -- we still believe her. I don`t know how (INAUDIBLE) explain it.
CINDY ANTHONY: I still believe my daughter.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I believe in my daughter.
CINDY ANTHONY: I already answered this question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you believe she was fabricating...
CINDY ANTHONY: I already answered the question. I`m not answering it again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to our chief editorial producer, Ellie Jostad, on the story from the very beginning. You know, I thought we had heard it all, that there`d be nothing left to learn from tot mom`s personal laptop computer. You know, we heard that she faked everybody out, acting like she was working all those months when she was just typing on that computer. What did police learn?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they took a good, hard look at her laptop and another computer in the home, and they found not only those searches for chloroform, neck breaking, how to make household weapons, but they found these the images -- skulls, skulls and crossbones, sayings like, Don`t live for anyone but yourself, a cartoon that says, Weekend forecast, mostly drunk with a chance of horny, another saying, She`s cold, she`s cruel, but she knows what she`s doing, and, Remember my name, I`ll be famous some day.
GRACE: One that really sticks out in my mind, Ellie Jostad, is, A killer with the perfect weapons, crystal eyes and a heart of coal.
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: Now, that certainly puts a chill down your spine when you realize she`s charged with murder one in the death of her 2-year-old little girl.
JOSTAD: It sure does, Nancy. And you know, there`s another one that says, OMG, crack, yay. Another one says, You`re twisted, depraved and rotten to the core, I like that in a person. Lots of stuff like this on her computer.
GRACE: This following a disastrous PR junket by the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, piled on by the defense lawyer who goes in front of the cameras. To Mark Williams, anchor and reporter joining us there in Orlando. Mark, what can you tell me about this phrase that the defense lawyer is claiming explains all her bizarre behavior, all the partying, the one-night stands, the drunken parties. It`s called "ugly coping"? What did he say? What did he say?
MARK WILLIAMS, ANCHOR/REPORTER: I had never heard of that term before, Nancy. When I read that, I was kind of taken back by it. But here`s the deal. People don`t cope in the same way when they`re faced with tragedy in their lives. Casey, of course, coping -- and we`ve seen it in the pictures -- five days after little Caylee went missing, with her partying. She was just the biggest party animal here in Orlando, and he`s comparing that with a case that happened in California.
GRACE: Out to Bethany Marshall, Dr. Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers." Bethany, all these photos, literally hundreds of photos of her partying, being drunk, vomiting in commodes, urinating in public parking lots -- these are in the weeks and days after Caylee goes missing. What is ugly coping? That`s their defense to all of this behavior?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Nancy, I have never, ever heard of anything remotely called ugly coping. It`s completely new to me. You know, if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it`s a duck. She`s on the stripper pole. She`s partying. She has a push-up bra. It shows a burst of energy and a great deal of excitement following the death of this little girl. That`s all it is. It`s excitement. It`s excitement that the little girl is out of the way, and you can`t make much more out of it than that.
GRACE: So when they say "ugly coping," Bethany, is the defense attorney trying to say she acted out to mask all of her pain over her kidnapped child? Is that what he`s trying to say?
MARSHALL: They`re speaking to something called "reaction formation," where you take an underlying feeling of grief and turning it into its opposite, which would be extreme excitement. But it just -- it just doesn`t have that feeling to me because she never fell back into the grief state when she was in jail. If it`s truly reaction formation, then eventually, you go back to the original underlying state, and that has never happened. She`s never mourned the loss of her daughter, as far as I can see.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: We thought that the cars that were following us from my attorney`s office were media because there was a media van that followed us and another van that went with them. (INAUDIBLE) It happens every day, so...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. I know it does. I would like to make it stop happening, to be honest with you.
CASEY ANTHONY: I would, too.
(LAUGHTER)
CASEY ANTHONY: We have said...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... possibility today?
CASEY ANTHONY: ... from the very beginning if law enforcement would like to speak with myself, he would like to be present. I would like to have my attorney present.
Well, (INAUDIBLE) them announcing that, you know, there`s going to be a grand jury, and obviously, my name was thrown out, they knew who the grand jury was for.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who threw your name out?
CASEY ANTHONY: All the media said that it was from an inside source.
I`ll take this as far as I need to to prove my innocence, which I guess is my point in all of this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you say you`ll take it as far as you need to to prove your innocence, what do you mean?
CASEY ANTHONY: Serving the indictment today and the warrant for my arrest, everything else. I`m not running.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) we Mirandized her (INAUDIBLE) at 4:22. She invoked. Quit the finger-pointing, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m trying to think, did she really do it only to better herself, or did she even just say white lies just to do it? I`m really trying to think now because sometimes, it seems like she lies just to lie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who will be under oath in this case. Leonard, when you write, The perfect killer, the perfect weapons, crystal eyes and a heart of coal -- when I saw tot mom giving her police interviews, that was a perfect description of her demeanor. Agree or disagree, Leonard?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Absolutely. But here`s the thing. We`re trying to equate her with being a normal person.
GRACE: I`m not.
PADILLA: I know. She`s not. And if you go back in her thinking, I`m telling you, her thinking is this, It was an accident, and therefore, there was no mens rea towards murder, and there`s nothing they can prove about it. So she`s just along for the ride.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, what were some of the slogans and photos that struck you as unusual?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: She`s cold, she`s cruel, and she knows what she`s doing, one of them. Don`t live for anyone but yourself. A killer with perfect weapons, that you were talking about earlier.
But I have to say, I`ve been on MySpace a lot before, and people do put these things on their MySpace. And it`s pretty normal to have these kind of sick joke kind of -- people think it`s funny or in some way kind of sadistic, but they still put it on their MySpace.
GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Bethany Marshall. You know, Dr. Bethany, I recall around the age, when I was that age, as tot mom is, the big thing then was a "nothing book." It was a book with nothing but blank pages, and you filled it with whatever you wanted. And I had verses from Eleanor Roosevelt and Helen Keller, "Keep your nose in the wind and your eye on the horizon," things like that. I didn`t have, A cold killer has crystal eyes and a heart of coal. I mean, I don`t think that that is the norm, regardless of what our reporter from WDBO radio might think.
MARSHALL: Yes, I don`t agree with Drew. This reminds me of a series of prison drawings that was rendered by a convicted killer, where he shows himself standing over the victim, a corpse, at some points defecating, urinating, masturbating and stabbing the corpse. And he drew the pictures because he had fantasies of being famous.
So in the mind of the killer, the idea of having power over the victim, dominating the victim, killing the victim is usually associated with extreme excitement and the notoriety. And while Casey`s drawings and slogans, they don`t really rise to this pathological level, it shows a fetishized, romanticized interest in death...
GRACE: Right.
MARSHALL: ... that there`s excitement and sadism associated with it and the idea of being famous. It is a part of the same complex.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Gloria Allred, victims` rights lawyer out of LA, John Burris, renowned defense attorney in San Francisco, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta.
To you, John Burris. Of course, this does want prove guilt or innocence. It is not probative of the ultimate issue. But John Burris, if this goes to a death penalty phase where the issue is sentencing, these slogans, thousands of them and images of human skulls, may very well come into evidence.
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that`s the side (ph) the defense lawyer`s going to have, and I think he`s going to make a real strong effort that this does not reflect anything that goes to the question of guilt and/or a mental state. It may be she`s nutty as a fruitcake...
GRACE: That`s what I just said, Burris. I just said it`s not going come in in the case in chief, it will only come in at sentencing.
BURRIS: No, no. I`m saying -- I`m saying it may not come in in the case in sentencing. That`s my point of view. That`s what the defense lawyer`s challenge is, to keep this out.
GRACE: OK.
BURRIS: I don`t see where it necessarily comes in as reflective of anything other than some musings of some kind.
GRACE: Well...
BURRIS: I think a psychological report from the defense point of view is going to put this in some kind of context to show that this is not necessarily the product of a deprived (SIC) mind. And that`s what`s going to be the challenge.
GRACE: To Gloria Allred. I think it certainly goes to motive, intent, course of conduct. What about that, Gloria?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY (via telephone): All of the above, Nancy And it`s counterintuitive. In other words, what does a normal person think that a grieving mother or a mother whose child is missing is going to do? Now, Jose Baez has said he`s got a compelling reason to explain all this. I can`t wait to hear what that is, and it`ll be a tough sell to a jury.
GRACE: And the kicker, Peter Odom, is going to be if any of this was posted after Caylee goes missing.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I know that prosecutors love to say that this kind of evidence goes to motive and intent, but really, it`s prejudicial, it`s inadmissible, and it should not come in.
GRACE: Well, you can say everything the prosecution is going to put in is prejudicial, Peter Odom. You`ve got to do better than that.
ODOM: It`s overly prejudicial and irrelevant.
GRACE: Oh, so you`re adding the word "overly." OK, I`m sold!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do know that the little girl was living with her grandparents. The mom did have a job. She worked for a mortgage lender. And apparently, the grandparents were -- even grandma was working nights so the little girl wouldn`t have to go to day care. Also the mother, the suspect`s, brother was helping out with the child`s care. So this whole family pitching in to take care of the little girl, the only grandchild.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In a story that has boggled the minds of many, a beautiful 24- year-old mom says she was attacked from behind in the parking lot of a public park. She wakes up hours later. Her baby girl, 18-month-old baby Emma, is gone. After scouring the area for the perpetrator, suspicion turns back toward Mommy.
Straight out to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, what exactly happened? I`m hearing that tonight, we`re learning that not only are the blows to her head likely self-inflicted, but she also disrobed to suggest to police that there had been some sort of a sex attack?
JOSTAD: Right. Well, what police say is that she calls them, claiming that this unknown assailant snuck up on her right when she`s putting the little girl in the carseat. So she gets knocked in the head. She wakes up in a parking lot miles away, hours later, little girl`s gone. Now, the cops say that she did have injuries consistent with, you know, some sort of attack, a head injury, and she also was partially unclothed when they found her.
GRACE: Now, when you say partially unclothed, what do you mean by that, Ellie?
JOSTAD: Unfortunately, I don`t have further details. They just said she was partially clothed when they found her, you know, apparently looked disheveled, as if she`d been attacked.
GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, also on the story. So what are we talking about, the shirt off, the bra torn, the pants gone? How far did she go to allegedly simulate an aggravated assault and sex attack on herself to explain away the death of the 18-month-old baby?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s information that police are not releasing at this point, Nancy, but more information will be coming out in the days to come.
GRACE: Out to Richard Winton (ph) with "The LA Times." Richard Winton, it sounds to me as if she tried to fake some type of sex attack, as well as a brutal assault, to explain away the death of her little girl.
RICHARD WINTON, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, what she did here was she at least told multiple stories and tried to make out that something did happen to her. But that story, which is very chilling, of her being basically attacked from behind in a popular Lancaster park, knocked unconscious and then apparently driven another part of town, when she woke up to find her child missing, kind of just unraveled as she spoke to detectives.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stacy Barker, she`s a 24-year-old mom. She`s at a park in Lancaster, California. She`s just putting her little 18-month- old daughter Emma into a car seat when she said a guy comes up behind her, knocks her on the head, knocks her out.
About five hours later, 10:30 at night, she said she wakes up, she`s in a park and ride lot several miles away, the little girl is nowhere to be found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body of 18-month-old Emma Barker was found dumped in a grassy lot near the Golden State Freeway. Police believe the baby girl was smothered.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When someone is suffocated purposely with force there are tell tale signs that you see on the body. First, if they`re strangled you`re going to see bruises on the neck or you`re going to see marks on the neck, and also you`ll see the tongue turn purple.
You`re going to see bruising on the mouth or on the nose and you`re going to see characteristic red splotches in the eyes. If someone is accidentally suffocated you don`t see these signs.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: And this is what I don`t understand. Right now she is charged with a lesser offense of murder 2.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, victims` rights advocate Gloria Allred out of L.A., San Francisco attorney John Burris and Atlanta attorney Peter Odom.
So, Gloria Allred, this is -- the icing on the cake, in my opinion, that she`s only charged with murder 2? Why?
(ON THE PHONE)
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, we don`t know yet what`s in the minds of the prosecutors, but we know that they did charge her any possibly because according to the police that she`s had three or four different versions of how this occurred and in addition a number of hours passed according to Mr. Winton`s article, four or five hours before she actually contacted authorities to report that her child was missing. So we`ll have to see what the evidence proves.
GRACE: You know, Mike Brooks, to me that only exacerbates the evidence. The fact that she waited to report her child missing or dead. That child maybe could have been saved. Probably not, but to throw the child so coldly out in the high grass alongside the interstate, this 18- month-old baby girl?
And then come up with this cockamamie story about how she was attacked from behind and sexually assaulted and the girl was taken? You know what? I`m just wondering this, Mike Brooks, is the murder 2 charge simply what she`s booked in under.
Police arrest you and you get booked. Then you have to wait for your formal indictment so she could be indicted for murder one?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: She could be, Nancy. I mean she`s not arraigned until May 11th. But one of the other things that I found interesting, this allegedly happened on the 18th. She was interviewed three or four times and gave three or four different versions to detectives.
Then the next day on the 19th she took them and showed them where the body was, but she was only arrested last Thursday. So she`s been out and because they said that they saw a, quote, that she might flee or disappear, and that`s the reason they arrested her?
I think, Nancy, they`re waiting for more forensics to come back and they`re -- also they`re trying to make a better case on her, but is that the only why? Maybe second degree now? But possibly, like you said, if they have a stronger case it possibly could go to first degree.
GRACE: I think the forensics will tell the tale. Joining me right now is a very special guest joining us out of Spartanburg, South Carolina, David Smith. He is the former husband of Susan Smith who murdered all of her children, buckling them in to seat belts so they could not escape, then drowning them in a local body of water.
David Smith, thank you for being with us and I`m torn between wanting to ask you a million questions and not wanting to drudge up horrible memories for you, but David Smith, after the deaths of your children at the hands of your former wife, I asked you the other day how long it took you to actually confront their mode of death?
How long did it take you to actually think about them being buckled in so they couldn`t get out and going down that ramp into the water?
DAVID SMITH, EX-HUSBAND OF SUSAN SMITH, EX-WIFE MURDERED THEIR TWO CHILDREN: It -- it took me many years to actually allow myself to think of how they drowned, you know, having to -- you know, breathe in water and just a horrible way that they probably had to drown. It took many years for me to even start to deal with that and face that, yes.
GRACE: And David Smith, what you went through, this child`s extended family is going through right now. David, I don`t know if you knew this, but the whole family -- this was the first grandchild, baby Emma, 18 months old.
The grandmother took a night job so she could take care of the baby all day and it wouldn`t have to go to day care. Another relative would take the baby in the early morning hours so everybody else could sleep. The whole family joined in out of the love for baby Emma and now this.
In the hours, the days, the weeks, after you learned your children had been murdered at the hands of their mother, what did you go through?
SMITH: Well, at first it was just a shock for many, many months. I didn`t have any like control over what I did. People would have to, you know, tell me when to get up, tell me to be at this place or be at that place because I didn`t even know where I was.
And then it went to, you know, I guess sadness and then this -- then the very severe depression started coming and the suicidal thoughts and things like that.
GRACE: You know, David Smith -- with us, former husband of Susan Smith who murdered all of her children. I thought that I had experienced so much grief when my fiance was murdered, but now that I have children who are about to turn 18 months, I can`t even imagine the grief that you went through at the time of their deaths.
Everyone, you are seeing video in the upper screen of David Smith`s and Susan Smith`s children in life.
I want to go back out to Richard Winton, the "L.A. Times" reporter joining us. Richard, what do you know about her being partially disrobed, trying to fake a sex attack? Do we know more precisely, exactly what she did?
(ON THE PHONE)
RCHARD WINTON, REPORTER, LA TIMES, COVERING STORY: Well, basically, what we know is that she was partially clothed and more interestingly, she had this contusion on her head. It was obviously part of what was a very weak story which didn`t last very long about trying to -- which she basically was some sort of abduction and it took basically one night with the sheriff`s detectives and three or four versions before she eventually folded and admitted that she put her child in the long grass about 30 miles away.
GRACE: I want to go to renowned medical examiner, Dr. Joshua Perper joining us out of Miami, author of "When to Call the Doctor."
Dr. Perper, I have dealt a little bit with self-inflicted blows. How would you determine if blows to the head were self-inflicted?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, most likely the blows are self-inflicted if they are usually minor. They are in an area which is easily accessible to the person who tries to fake them, and then the circumstances are going to be considered as well.
And in this particular case they had the child who had evidence of suffocation and her apparently tried to show that this was a sexual assault. It wouldn`t make much sense for such a sexual defendant to try to kill the baby. So probably as a result of all those factors together and finally for her basically confessing that she inflicted herself the injuries.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, I`m just thinking about the actual physicality of trying to self-inflict a blow to the head.
Let me go on camera with Dr. Perper very quickly. Dr. Perper, to hit yourself, for instance, with a pipe or an object, how could you hit in the back of your head with any type of impact that would result in what she described was a brutal attack from behind?
PERPER: Well, obviously, you`re not going to hit yourself top strong because then you can basically.
GRACE: Right.
PERPER: . become unconscious and then they are going to see the weapon and your own fingerprints who are going to be on the weapon. So as I said, there`s no way, absolute way of distinguishing.
GRACE: Got it. Got it.
Out to the lawyers, John Burris, Peter Odom, Gloria Allred.
Peter Odom, I still don`t understand why it`s been charged as murder 2. Murder 1 simply requires premeditation and premeditation can be formed in the blink of an eye.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the prosecutors are familiar with the evidence in this case and they`ve charged her with murder 2.
GRACE: No, they haven`t, Peter. This is the book-in charge.
ODOM: This is the book-in charge. They could have charged her with murder 1 and they didn`t, and that tells you about the state of the evidence.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were some people from social services and the police department who`d been there. So can you tell us what happened?
NADYA SULEMAN: No, nothing. They just came over because the teacher, his teacher reported that, you know, just to check about (INAUDIBLE) -- oh, gentle. Show me gentle. Gentle. He has a bite mark on his back from this guy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
SULEMAN: And then they wanted to verify to make sure that he`s OK not being, you know -- make sure he`s being supervised enough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So did they talk to the kids or.
SULEMAN: Yes. What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did they talk to the kids?
SULEMAN: Gentle. Gentle. Be nice. This one`s aggressive and so then -- I`m started doing now. I`m going to give you a warning. No hits. No hits. No. Gentle. Be nice. No.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Hello? This is Whittier Police Department. Someone dialed 911. Do you have an emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I think that was my baby brother.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Are you the adult in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Are you the adult in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you have a mom or a dad who is home?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m in charge right now.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: How old are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m 6 and my babysitter`s watching me.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Is your babysitter there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Can I speak to your babysitter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s busy making some food right now.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Because we have police on the way to your house. So I need to speak to an adult.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. My mom and dad went to, like a party and my babysitter`s making food.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK, well, the officers are going to be at your house. So I need to speak to your babysitter. Can you tell her I`m on the phone?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mary Margaret, senior editor with Radar Online.
You know, Octomom has been in the headlines for some time, but there hasn`t been a criminal case. Now police have been called out, one of her 14 children turns up with a black eye and bite marks.
What happened, Mary?
MARY MARGARET, SR. EDITOR, RADARONLINE.COM, RELEASED EXCLUSIVE VIDEO OF OCTOMOM: Well, as Nadya explained to our video on Radar Online, that the time teacher of her 4-year-old autistic child had noticed that he had a bite mark, a few bite marks his back which are obviously mysterious and concerning and also a black eye.
So she sent a note to Nadya Suleman, the octomom, and you know, in the chaos in the house, the note was misplaced. She didn`t see it in the backpack and so the situation escalated and the teacher ended up calling social services when she didn`t receive a response.
GRACE: You`re seeing it video from RadarOnline.com. It`s Suleman talking about the social service visit.
I want to go to Dr. Laura Jana, pediatrician, joining us from Omaha, Nebraska.
Dr. Jana, thank you for joining us. What do you make of her claim it was just a big accident that this particular child is autistic and just naturally gives itself black eyes?
(ON THE PHONE)
DR. LAURA JANA, MD, PEDIATRICIAN: Well, you know, the important point here from the standpoint of supervisory neglect or from the child abuse or anything else is it doesn`t matter what you think her intent was if there is a case where there`s an injury or an unexplainable injury.
You need to follow up and the fact that the teacher did that is very important. People need to follow up if it`s determined to be not plausible later, that`s great, but you have to think of the best interest of the children.
GRACE: But what do you make of that explanation that just because the child is mildly autistic it gives itself black eyes?
JANA: Well, you know, and again, the black eye is what raises a red flag for me because that`s not a typical injury I see in the child. There may be an explanation but somebody needs to find out what it is.
And I don`t buy that an autistic child gives himself a black eye. Bite marks, I see all the time in young children. But again, remember, we`re also (INAUDIBLE) supervisory neglect, and if those children are in harm`s way and there`s not the supervision that we need, we still need to act on it whether it was plausible or not.
GRACE: Dr. Jana, when do children start biting?
JANA: You know biting is a very common, I say, the least socially acceptable of all normal behaviors of early childhood. And they start very early, sometimes under the age of 1, and it can continue in a typical, well developing child until close to the age of 3. Not all children do it.
Sometimes in kids who are autistic or in children who have aggression issues or other issues, you may see it extending into the age of 4 or so, but that`s not as common.
GRACE: Well, to Gloria Allred, so far the twins are not biting, I don`t want to jinx it by announcing that on air, but they`re not biting anybody yet.
Gloria, you are the attorney for Angels in Waiting, the non-profit group who offered to help Suleman take care of her 14 children, the octuplets specifically. What do you make of this latest 911 call?
ALLRED: Well, Nancy, you know, I`m very happy that the Orange County Children Family Services and law enforcement are investigating if Aden has a black eye, and I think it`s important for them to determine the cause of the child`s injury and to make sure that the injury didn`t result from abuse or neglect.
I`m really shocked by Nadya`s reported response about his black eye that, quote, "he`s autistic, he bumps into things," end quote, and that he has bite marks as well, because he is autistic and he`s only 3 or 4 years old. He -- and has special needs. He is in need of special monitoring and protection by Nadya so that he will be protected from himself and others who might not understand his behavior and not know how to react to it in an appropriate manner.
And we warned Nadya that as Angels in Waiting, my client did, we had been concerned for the first time that we met Aden that he was in particular need of professionals who were trained and experienced in autism and that because he was not adequately supervised by these kinds of trained professionals, he would be exposed to a high risk of bodily and emotional harm.
And we have contacted.
GRACE: And Gloria.
ALLRED: . children`s services and law enforcement.
GRACE: Gloria, it`s especially upsetting.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLRED: And her reaction.
GRACE: It`s especially upsetting because -- well, they`re all defenseless, but due to his autism he is in special need. So he`s not bitten relentlessly by the other children or the victim of, for instance, this black eye. He is in special need.
To Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly." Weigh in, Tom.
TOM O`NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR, IN TOUCH WEEKLY, COVERING STORY: well, I think the most shocking thing about this whole story, Nancy, is the fact that this note from the teacher was neglected, that she did not respond to it. Now she`s owned up to that and said it was a mistake. But come on, it did cause this degree of alarm. She has a responsibility, at least to monitor, what comes from the school.
GRACE: What else can you tell us, Tom?
O`NEIL: Well, also that she claims that the child hit the floor. That he bumped his head on a desk so maybe that`s where the black eye comes from, but that would have to be a sharp angle to the desk hitting the eye. That could be pretty severe. And of course, she`s blaming the potential of these bite marks on his back on her 2-year-old twins.
GRACE: Gloria, Nadya Suleman, the octomom, basically kicked out Angels in Waiting. You know, when I`m up from about 2:00 until 5:30 in the morning I`d love to have a fleet of professional nannies helping me take care of the twins.
Why did she kick you guys out? You can come to my house.
ALLRED: Well -- yes, that`s a good question. And we think that maybe it had to do with our filing with Child Protective Services three times because, you know, the nurses are mandated reporters and they did feel that the babies were endangered. And that`s why they did report.
In addition, our nurse, had refused -- we weren`t going to sign a nondisclosure clause. Originally she had agreed that our nurse could speak to the public about the condition of the babies and then she tried to backtrack on it through her attorney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`d like to have somebody removed from the home that I`m at right now.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Who is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gloria Allred.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Do they live there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I just want this person removed and -- yes, this is the home of Nadya Suleman and she`s just kind of being a nuisance. She`s not authorized to be here.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Who are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m a nanny. I`m her nanny.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Why is she there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She just walked in and they really don`t want her in the home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SULEMAN: Yes. What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did they talk to the kids?
SULEMAN: They did talk to the kids. Gentle. Gentle. Be nice. This one`s aggressive and so then, I just started time out. I`m going to give you a warning. No hits. No hits. No. Gentle. Be nice. No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: No offense, Mary Margaret, who is the senior editor with Radar Online, you`re seeing video and interview from Radar Online, but why is Nadya Suleman exposing all of her children, one with a black eye on camera, and not just Radar, but anybody.
What`s the deal?
MARGARET: Well, I mean, that`s the big question is what are her motives? Even, you know, when all of this started when she had in vitro, you know, when she went public with the process that she was going through. You know what does she want at the end of day? Is it because she just wants children? But, you know, if so, then why is she courting the media? That`s something that, you know, is up for debate still.
GRACE: To Tom O`Neil, what can you tell me about an alleged, very lucrative diaper deal she thinks she`s going to have to introduce her own line of baby products?
O`NEIL: Well, she`s planning on doing all kinds of deals and she`s not disclosing the terms of all these like her new reality show that`s really a documentary. I`m not sure I know the dollar specifics here, Nancy.
GRACE: And long story short, John Burris, Peter Odom, Gloria Allred.
Peter Odom, what are the potential criminal charges of this most recent 911 call?
ODOM: If they can show that some adult inflicted the bite, inflicted the bruises, potentially they can bring charges against her, but it is very difficult to tie those kinds of injuries to a particular person.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Marine Lance Corporal T.J. Reilly, just 19, London, Kentucky, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, Bronze Star, loved basketball, football, boxing, baking and cooking. Dreamed of culinary school. Leaves behind mom, Gina, brother Kenneth, sister Regina.
T.J. Reilly, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
END
