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Nancy Grace

Hoaxer Pleads Not Guilty in Daughter`s Death

Aired May 11, 2009 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 24-year-old LA mom takes her toddler girl, 18-month-old baby Emma, to a local park, when suddenly Mommy`s attacked from behind, a blow to the head. Hours later, she comes to, but baby Emma gone. Mommy has a blow to the head, clothes ripped and torn. She`s barely conscious. As police scour the area for the attacker, suspicion turns back to Mommy. Baby Emma`s lifeless body found discarded, thrown away in high grass off the Golden State Freeway.

Did Mommy stage a fake beating and sex attack to cover up the murder of her own baby girl? Her story changing after her own family, not her, called 911. In court just hours ago, she pleads not guilty. But why, why is she not charged with murder one? Why? Is baby Emma`s life worth less? She`s being cheaped out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stacey Marie Barker, the mom accused of murdering her own daughter by smothering her to death, pleaded not guilty in a California courtroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Law enforcement believed that this poor little girl, this beautiful little girl we`re seeing here, died at the hands of her mother by suffocation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stacey Barker first told police she was knocked out by a kidnapper and her baby girl, Emma, abducted from her car in the parking lot of a local park.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cops start talking to her. Her story is evolving and changing. Finally, that next morning, maybe six to eight hours later, she says, You know what? There was an accident. I panicked. I`ll take you to the body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body was found near a fence right off the freeway, Golden State Freeway 5.

GRACE: And now police are investigating whether the wounds to this woman are self-inflicted -- that`s right, blows to the head she gave herself in this kidnap hoax.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The coroner`s report is still going on, but investigators do believe she was suffocated by her mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, an all-American coed accused of taking part in the twisted and violent murder of her 21-year-old British roommate, American girl Amanda Knox on trial in an Italian courtroom for murder. Bombshell. Blood evidence emerges in court allegedly including the U.S. teen`s bloody footprints.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) with characters that could have been (INAUDIBLE) from a best-selling murder mystery.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meredith Kercher`s lifeless body found half naked, lying in a pool of blood, with a stab wound on her neck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And three suspects, Amanda Knox, an American student from Seattle, Raffaele Sollecito, an Italian, who was Knox`s boyfriend, and Rudy Guede.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a possible blow to Amanda Knox`s defense, a law enforcement footprint expert testified that bloody footprints left in the house where Meredith Kercher was killed are those of Amanda Knox and two others. But on cross-examination, Knox`s attorney questioned the certainty of those prints.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) denied (INAUDIBLE) investigators insisted Knox left a fresh bloodstain in the bathroom and that they found a bloody footprint, matching Sollecito`s shoes next to the victim`s body. Both defendants have given confusing what prosecutors call confusing contradictory accounts of what happened the night Meredith Kercher was murdered, prosecutors say fighting off a sexual assault.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knox writes, I know I didn`t kill Meredith. That`s all I know for sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. A beautiful 24-year-old LA mom takes her toddler girl, 18-month- old baby Emma, to a local park, when suddenly, Mommy`s attacked from behind, a blow to the head. Well, hours later, she comes to, but baby Emma gone. Did Mommy stage a fake beating and her own sex attack to cover up the murder of her own baby girl?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She first told investigators someone hit her in the head and stole her child. Investigators say she changed her tune and said baby Emma died in an accident. Today, Stacey Marie Barker pleaded not guilty in court.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stacey Barker -- she`s a 24-year-old mom. She`s at a park in Lancaster, California. She`s just putting her little 18- month-old daughter, Emma, into a carseat when she says a guy comes up behind her, knocks her on the head, knocks her out. About five hours later, 10:30 at night, she says she wakes up. She`s at a park-and-ride lot several miles away. The little girl is nowhere to be found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body of 18-month-old Emma Barker was found dumped in a grassy lot near the Golden State Freeway. Police believe the baby girl was smothered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to see bruising on the mouth or on the nose, and you`re going to see characteristic red splotches in the eyes. If someone is accidentally suffocated, you don`t see these signs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This case is a tragedy. A beautiful 18-month- old girl is dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to our chief editorial producer, Ellie Jostad. Ellie, did you see the video of the mom propped up in the ambulance acting all sick? Did you see that?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: I saw it, Nancy, yes.

GRACE: Show it to me again, Elizabeth, because if the prosecution is right and she just murdered her little girl, and now she`s all propped up, getting pampered in an ambulance -- uh-uh! What happened, Ellie?

JOSTAD: Right. Well, she was in court today. She pled not guilty to charges that she murdered her daughter. And also, she`s charged with child -- or assault on a child ending in death and child abuse. Police say that what she did is she cooked up this story that someone came up from behind, hit her in the head, took the baby. She woke up hours later and reported it to her brother, who then called police. But they say what really happened is, she killed her daughter by smothering her. And then she says she panicked and hid the body.

GRACE: OK. Right there, I see a lot of inconsistencies. We are taking your calls live. We are live there in LA.

To Jo Kwon, reporter with 790 Talk Radio. Jo, explain to me. Maybe I didn`t hear this correctly. But how can you smother a baby, which takes a couple of minutes, and then you panic? I mean, how do you smother -- you claim it`s an accident later, and then you panic and throw the child away, you dump her like trash on the side of the Golden State parkway?

JO KWON, KABC 790 TALK RADIO: You know, she said that after she came clean. She said that she panicked. She didn`t specify how the baby died. She wouldn`t say. And investigators aren`t saying. But they believe she was suffocated somehow and then the body was dumped on the side of the freeway. And it was in deep grass along a fence. Yes, I couldn`t say why, how. She didn`t say, either.

GRACE: And the parallels to tot mom Casey Anthony are painfully obvious. You`ve got two young mothers approximately the same age, just a few months apart. You have both of them putting up photos of themselves on FaceBook and MySpace, of them partying, the high life, sexy party pictures on line. Both of them dumped. Emma`s dumped in weeds, Caylee is dumped in the woods. Both portray themselves as party girls. Both come up with some wacky story about a kidnap.

Back to Jo Kwon, 790 Talk Radio, KABC. What can you tell me about "smother mother," as she`s being dubbed by the local press? What can you tell me about her clothes being torn in patches, and they were, like, planted around the parking lot like Easter eggs?

KWON: That`s right. When authorities found her, she actually was partially undressed. She had some wounds to her head. Clothes was torn. And yes, they found pieces of her clothing around in the parking lot. And not sure how they got there, but apparently, maybe she did it herself.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Sandy in North Carolina. Hi, Sandy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was just wondering if she was abused herself? Is she going to claim that as a defense?

GRACE: OK, first of all, Sandy, why do we care?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We really don`t.

GRACE: OK. So -- but you must care a little bit because you want to know, was she abused? Now, do you mean as a child or...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, as a child.

GRACE: OK. Let me find out. OK. Good question. Good question. Jo Kwon, 790 Talk Radio. What do you know, Jo? What do we know about her background?

KWON: You know, we know that she actually came from a very happy home. She lived with her mom and her dad, and her mom even worked nights so that the baby would be taken care of 24 hours a day. There are no signs that she came from a crazy home or anything, so...

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight Susan Moss, child advocate out of New York, Peter Odom, veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and also Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney, former fed with the FBI, out of Miami.

First to you, Sue Moss. Did you know the entire family rearranged their lives around baby Emma? She was the first grandchild in the entire family. The grandmother took a night job, Sue Moss, so that she could personally take care of the little child during the day. They did not want her in day care. Another member of the family would come in in the early morning so everybody else could sleep before grandmother woke up. And Mommy worked during the day at Countrywide. She was the focus, the love of so many people in this family, Sue Moss.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And I feel bad for the family, but not for this mom. Common sense. If you confess and lead the police to the body, everyone`s going to know you killed this toddy. I mean, the reality is, is that this case is absolutely, absolutely a slam dunk for the prosecution. I do feel a bit sorry for the family. This family has done everything to help this mom, and unfortunately, this mom has committed the ultimate crime.

GRACE: You know, the parallels to tot mom, Casey Anthony, are very, very disturbing. Of course, this occurred many, many months after little Caylee was found murdered.

Out to the lines. Kathy in New York. Hi, Kathy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to know, doesn`t she have a mom or something she could have given the kid to or something so...

GRACE: Oh, Kathy, you must have been on hold trying to get on the air.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m so upset. Please.

GRACE: Kathy, listen to this. The whole family centered their lives around this little baby, Emma. The grandmother took a night job so she could keep the little girl during the day. Another family member kept the child in the early morning so everybody else could sleep. The mom worked during the day. It was all about taking care of the only grandchild so she wouldn`t have to go to day care.

Peter Odom, Hugo Rodriguez, her story changed. Hugo, why didn`t she call 911? Just like tot mom, she didn`t call 911.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She didn`t call 911 because she...

GRACE: Yes? Listening.

RODRIGUEZ: Well, she didn`t call 911. But you asked a question before and I want to answer it because it goes to the 911. Obviously, it wasn`t premeditated. The state has not charged her with murder one. Obviously, something occurred. She probably did cause this death of this unfortunate child, but there`s not enough there. It wasn`t premeditated.

GRACE: OK. Very quickly...

RODRIGUEZ: What happened, I don`t know.

GRACE: ... Dr. Michael Arnall, how long does it take to suffocate, to smother a human being? How many minutes, Arnall?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Two or three minutes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mother of an 18-month-old toddler says she was in a parking lot in Lancaster, California, and had just put her baby in her carseat when an attacker approached from behind and knocked her out. Stacey Barker says she woke up five hours later several miles away and little Emma was gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A young California mom could face life in prison after being charged with murder in the apparent smothering death of her baby girl. The body of 18-month-old Emma Barker was found dumped in a grassy lot near the Golden State Freeway. Police believe she was suffocated, but her mother claims she died accidentally. Barker initially told police daughter Emma was abducted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, basically, what we know is that she was partially clothed. And more interestingly, she had this contusion on her head. It was obviously part of what was a very weak story, which didn`t last very long, about trying to -- which she -- basically, it was some sort of abduction. And it took, basically, one night with the sheriff`s detectives and three or four versions before she eventually folded and admitted that she`d put her child in the long grass about 30 miles away.

GRACE: How would you determine if blows to the head were self- inflicted?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, most likely, the blows are self-inflicted, they are usually minor. They are in an area that is easily accessible to the person who tries to fake them. And then the circumstances are going to be considered, as well. And in this particular case, they had the child who had evidence of suffocation, and her apparently tried to show that this was a sexual assault. It wouldn`t have made much sense for such a sex offender to try to kill the baby. So probably as a result of all those factors together, and finally, for her basically confessing that she inflicted herself injuries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back out to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, how did her steering wheel become part of this scenario?

JOSTAD: Right. Well, police say that under about seven hours of questioning, she changed her story three or four times. And in one of these versions, she actually said that she`d knocked herself out by her head hitting the steering wheel.

GRACE: OK, back to Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist, who`s joining us from Denver. Dr. Arnall, I`m not sure the viewers or our fleet of defense attorneys heard your answer. We were going to break. Dr. Arnall, let me ask you to restate how long it takes to smother or suffocate a human.

ARNALL: You could suffocate a human in two or three or four minutes by covering the mouth.

GRACE: OK. Two to four minutes. OK. Back to the lawyers -- Sue Moss, Peter Odom, Hugo Rodriguez. To you, Peter Odom. Let`s see the lawyers...

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, before we going convicting this woman of murder, can you please...

GRACE: I haven`t asked you the question yet, Odom. OK. Rodriguez just says there clearly was not any premeditation. But Peter Odom, isn`t it true, have you not yourself argued to juries, as a former prosecutor, that premeditation is formed in the twinkling of an eye...

ODOM: It can be.

GRACE: ... in a snap...

ODOM: It can be.

GRACE: In a moment. Yes?

ODOM: It can be.

GRACE: Yes, it can be. So wouldn`t you agree, based on that, that two to four minutes of smothering an 18-month-old baby girl is time to form premeditation?

ODOM: Well, it might be, Nancy, unless you remember that babies die accidentally from smothering every day in this country.

GRACE: Really, at the park?

ODOM: Rollover deaths occur every day in...

GRACE: At the park?

ODOM: In many places, Nancy.

GRACE: No, no, no! At the park! I want you to name me -- Odom, I`m not letting you get away with BS on this show, OK? Our viewers are like a jury to me. Now, Odom, how are you suggesting that this child rolled over in her sleep and got smothered at a local park? Actually, in the parking lot of a local park.

ODOM: What I`m suggesting is that we don`t know exactly how this child died. And before we go convicting her of murder, maybe we should just find out.

GRACE: OK, Peter Odom, according to sources, the cause of death is smothering.

ODOM: Smothering.

GRACE: Suffocation. Now, can you just go with that? Now, how would you suggest if someone was smothered, there was not enough time to form premeditated intent?

ODOM: Anything anybody says right now is speculation, so let`s not go convicting a mother of murder on speculation. Let`s find out what the medical examiner says.

GRACE: OK. You didn`t answer. But you know what? I respect that, Odom. You know why? Because when a defense attorney is faced with no way out, your back is against a hard place -- between a rock and a hard spot, what else can you say besides changing the suspect?

Out to the lines. Kathy in New York. Hi, Kathy. Oh, excuse me, Julie, Ohio. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I wanted to know, has this mother been involved with children`s services or child protective services?

GRACE: Good question. Jo Kwon, KABC 790, what do we know?

KWON: As far as I know, she doesn`t have any involvement with other child protective services or anything. She had a pretty clean history as far as -- you know, so far.

GRACE: And you know, we`ve got to take into account, Jo Kwon, that her family had been taking care of the baby while she`s at work all day and she`s not alone in the home with the child at night. So she has not been the sole caretaker of that child.

To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist joining us out of New York. Dr. Leslie, explain to me so often, when mothers are the killer, when they kill their children, they use smothering or suffocation as the cause of death, the mode of death?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, often -- most often, women killers are less likely to use weapons like knifes or guns. It`s more -- it`s less violent and less bloody to do smothering. And it is her child, so she`d be used to being intimate with the child`s body, unfortunately. This is a terrible, terrible thing.

GRACE: To John Lucich, former investigator, author of "Cyber Lies." Lucich, let`s talk about this alleged hoax. She says she has a blow from behind, she passes out, she wakes up miles away. She`s fine, but no baby. Then police find shreds, pieces of her shirt ripped off and scattered around the bus stop. What do you think of that?

JOHN LUCICH, FORMER INVESTIGATOR: Well, I think when you see somebody like that, who puts so much thought into this potential "get her out of jail" kind of card, when she goes to such details that she was attacked, she was sexually assaulted, and she does all this, that`s a flag for cops right away. And then she just leaves her kid on the side of the highway like that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This case is a tragedy. A beautiful 18-month- old girl is dead. You try to deal with it and maintain some perspective and treat it like any other criminal case without trying -- without getting too emotionally involved in the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do know that the little girl was with living with her grandparents. The mom did have a job. She worked for a mortgage lender. And apparently, the grandparents were -- even grandmother was working nights so the little girl wouldn`t have to go to day care. Also, the mother, the suspect`s brother was helping out with the child`s care. So this whole family pitching in to take care of the little girl, the only grandchild.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did a beautiful young LA mom -- there you see her -- stage her own assault and sex attack to cover up the murder of her 18-month-old baby girl, Emma?

To Beverly in Colorado. Hi, Beverly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It`s good to be on your program.

GRACE: It`s nice to have you, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my question is, Casey Anthony and Stacey have the same middle name, Marie. The two children, Caylee and Emma, resemble each other. Casey and Stacey also resemble each other. The family situation is so similar. I mean, I don`t think you can disregard it. Is there some kind of mental illness that drove her to imitate the...

GRACE: Beverly, Beverly, let me save your breath. Each breath is precious. She had a job. She was working every day at Countrywide. No problem photos of her up on line, no sign of mental illness.

Very quickly, Renee in Kentucky. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First off, I want to say, I love your show, and you have beautiful twins.

GRACE: Bless you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And my question is, is this girl`s mother and father standing behind her like they were...

GRACE: They are standing behind...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Italian police are still trying to piece together a horrific night of sex, drugs, and murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The night Amanda Knox`s roommate died, were Knox`s footprints left inside the house? The prosecution says yes. And in court, a police print expert testified that Knox and two other suspects` footprints were found, but Knox`s defense attorney strongly questioned the alleged footprint evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say Meredith Kercher was murdered fighting off a sexual assault. Police collected a mountain of evidence they say will prove that the victim`s American roommate, Amanda Knox, her former Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, and Rudy Guede, a 21-year-old with origins in the Ivory Coast, strangled and stabbed her to death.

The murder weapon, this kitchen knife, prosecutors say police found in Sollecito`s apartment with DNA traces of both Knox and the victim.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They simply don`t have any evidence against Amanda. There is nothing. There`s lots of guesses, there`s theories, there`s stories. Nothing physical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: She told them she was there in the apartment, in the cottage when her roommate began screaming and she put her hands over her ears then later said that was actually a vision or a dream that she had had.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. This is, again, a case of someone not interpreting correctly. She made this statement -- she was asked to imagine what she would do if she was there during the time, and she would have heard Meredith in the room with someone else, what would she have done if she would have heard them in there.

And at that point, it was just, was it consensual sex or not. And she said, wow, if I would have heard my roommate in there with someone else, if I was there, I might have covered my ears. It was something she was asked to imagine. It was not her statement saying that`s what happened.

GRACE: If your niece was with the boyfriend at the time of the murder, what is his DNA doing on the murder victim`s bra?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, from what I can understand, as far as how the evidence was collected and this bra strap was moved around quite a bit that it`s most likely a case of contamination of evidence.

If you watch the crime scene video of how they`re collecting the evidence, it`s been moved, put here, put there, handed off to several people. It`s been contaminated.

GRACE: Apparently in court, bloody footprints from the American teen, showing up as evidence.

Out to Steve Shay, reporter with the "West Seattle Herald." Steve, you`ve been on the story from the very beginning. What can you tell me?

(ON THE PHONE)

STEVE SHAY, REPORTER, WEST SEATTLE HERALD, COVERING STORY: Thank you very much very having me. I`ve done four articles on the Knox case, not since the beginning, but since they had a fund-raiser last fall or winter.

GRACE: OK, that`s good to know. What can you tell me about the evidence?

SHAY: So far, like you heard, the evidence has been sullied and mishandled and contaminated, as far as I understand. So gloves that touched the bra clasp -- prior to touching the bra clasp, may have touched the doorknob, clothes, other things belonging to Raffaele. And so there`s -- you know, a cornucopia of evidence on the bra clasp, et cetera.

GRACE: OK. You know what, let`s take it from the top. Let`s go to John Lucich, former investigator, author of "Cyber Lies." What is your understanding of the evidence? What happened that night, John Lucich?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Look, I`m really disturbed, Nancy, about a couple of different things. Number one, the bra strap that shows up three weeks later after the initial search.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, hold on. Before we all talk about a bra strap, can we go back to the beginning.

LUCICH: You asked about the evidence.

GRACE: You know? ABC. No.

LUCICH: That`s the evidence.

GRACE: No, you don`t start the story with a bra strap. Tell me.

LUCICH: Where would you like to start, Nancy?

GRACE: Tell me what happened that night? What happened? What do we know?

LUCICH: Well, we know one thing, that there was a bra strap involved. We know there were bloody footprints involved. And I`ll tell you one thing. Footprints are not the same as fingerprints.

When you read this report that says this is compatible with that, that is not a sure thing. I`d hate to think that someone`s going to get convicted on a footprint and not actual evidence. And evidence that wasn`t contaminated or may have not been contaminated.

GRACE: OK. Let me try one more time. Sue Moss, what is your understanding of the fact scenario the night of the murder?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, allegedly, there was some sort of a drug-fueled sex game that was going on in this cottage, according to the prosecution, and what happened, allegedly, is that the victim did not want to participate, and that set off some sort of scenario where ultimately it led to her murder and ultimately led to this boy`s DNA on her bra strap.

GRACE: Susan, what is the girl`s defense?

MOSS: The girl`s defense is that she wasn`t there, that she was with her boyfriend and that they were somewhere else. And that`s not going to work for two reasons. One, she put her foot in her mouth. And the other is because she put her foot in the blood.

She put her foot in the mouth because she gave an alibi that apparently is going to be disproven, because the boy`s DNA, where she`s supposed to be, was on the bra strap, and she put her foot in the blood because apparently there are now footprints in the blood and that that testimony is going to be presented at this trial.

GRACE: But we all know about other famous footprints that have come in at trial before, I think immediately of the O.J. Simpson double murder trial, where footprints, bloody footprints were found at the double murder scene.

Now the state didn`t have the photo at the criminal trial, but at the civil trial, Orenthal James Simpson`s Bruno Magli`s shoes, photos of him wearing them, that`s the specific photo, were brought in to show that they matched the bloody footprints at trial.

Footprint evidence is acceptable. It comes into courts all over the country.

I want to go to a special guest joining us tonight. In addition to Anne Bremner, who is for the friends of Amanda Knox, with us is Janet Huff. This is the American teen, Amanda Knox`s aunt, and she is speaking on her behalf tonight.

Janet, thank you for being with us. Janet, is it true that the night of the murders, your niece called home to the U.S. to stay she could not find her roommate?

JANET HUFF, AUNT OF AMANDA KNOX: She called home and spoke to her mother, yes.

GRACE: OK. And why was it important for her to call home and say, I don`t know where my roommate is?

HUFF: Well, I don`t think that was the whole reason she called home. She called home because she calls home all the time and she just happened to mention that, you know, it`s kind of strange, I found the door was broken and it was just a little bit odd. And I`m kind of worried about her, she`s not answering her phone calls, her door is locked, I`m kind of concerned.

GRACE: You know, out to our staffer, Matt Zarrell, on the story. Matt, I`m not getting a clear picture of what police have. What`s the evidence? What`s the scenario of what happened?

(ON THE PHONE)

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Well, a lot of what they have is they have a lot of bloody footprints that they believe some of which believe came from Knox`s shoe. They presented millimeter by millimeter evidence in the case where they show that it could not have been Sollecito or Guede that had these couple of footprints near Kercher`s room.

GRACE: OK. Back it up now. Who is Sollecito?

ZARRELL: Sollecito is the boyfriend or ex-boyfriend of Amanda Knox and Guede, they`re describing, as a drifter that was somehow involved in this two-way tryst.

GRACE: Now Guede has already been found not guilty, right?

ZARRELL: Yes, he has.

GRACE: OK, so these two, the boyfriend and the girlfriend, are on trial together. And the problem with that, Peter Odom and Hugo Rodriguez, is DNA evidence against the boyfriend, Sollecito, has come in. They claim they were together that night. So if he is damned, then she is too. Her alibi rises and falls with his.

(CROSSTALK)

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, not really, Nancy. Her DNA would be all over this place. This is a place that she frequented, that she lived in so...

GRACE: I`m not really talking about DNA. What I`m saying is, Peter Odom, is that they say they were out together, but if the state can place him there the night of the murder, then her alibi is no good either.

ODOM: Well, I don`t see that necessarily as true, Nancy. Just because their DNA is tied together in a place where she would be, just because his DNA was there doesn`t mean that they were together. That doesn`t hang together. And that`s why there`s reasonable doubt all over this case.

GRACE: OK, well, they`re saying they were together that night, and if the state can prove he was in the apartment around the time of the murder, then that ruins her alibi, too. I don`t know why you`re fighting me on that.

What I`m also.

ODOM: Because it doesn`t ruin her alibi at all. Because her DNA is going to be all over that apartment. And just because his is also there, doesn`t place them there together.

GRACE: OK. Hugo Rodriguez, there is the issue of the knife. The knife found at boyfriend`s home with victim`s blood on the blade and American girl, Amanda Knox`s DNA on the handle.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: Correct. Once she lived there, I don`t have an answer to that, but that doesn`t mean that she killed her nor that she was involved in her murder. They have no evidence that she was involved in her murder or killed her.

What they have is -- what they believe to be comparable footprints in the hallway outside this girl`s -- room and in her own room. That doesn`t add up to murder. She may know something.

GRACE: OK.

RODRIGUEZ: . but she wasn`t involved with that.

GRACE: Because her DNA is on the murder weapon, that means nothing to you or Odom?

RODRIGUEZ: No. She could have picked it up.

GRACE: OK. And.

RODRIGUEZ: She could have picked it up. It doesn`t mean she murdered anybody.

GRACE: OK. All right. Anne Bremner, weigh in.

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I don`t even know where to start. The fact of the matter is, with the knife, it`s not -- it`s just not matching the wounds. In fact, it`s inconsistent. They`ve never found the murder weapon. And doesn`t even match the knife print on the bed and the footprints are not in blood.

GRACE: Anne, it`s got the victim`s blood on it.

BREMNER: No, it doesn`t. It`s not even enough to measure. It`s not even identified as blood. But also, these footprints of Amanda are not in blood. And finally, this print in the bathroom is partial, it`s from a photo and the police don`t even back up this photo, quote, "comparable finding."

It`s not from the police. They had to hire someone in to come and say that. It`s not even identified as Raffaele.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knox maintains she was at his home that night and says after dinner, "I noticed there was blood on Raffaele`s hands, but I was under the impression it was blood from the fish."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They claim they have that evidence, but again, if you read carefully the paperwork that the prosecutors have put together, it actually doesn`t state with 100 percent certainty that this is, in fact, the murder weapon.

They said they have this knife. The forensic evidence suggests that the cut that was -- that killed Meredith Kercher is not incompatible with the actual blade, meaning that they don`t have a 100 percent match between the blade and the actual wound to her throat.

GRACE: I know that she told police she was with her boyfriend at the time of the murder, at his place. He is also charged in the murder. Now there`s surveillance video, apparently, of her near her place, near the murder scene that night.

HUFF: No. Actually, there isn`t. There`s video that shows somebody, but it`s not been confirmed that that`s Amanda.

GRACE: Do place say it`s Amanda?

HUFF: They`re guessing.

GRACE: They`re guessing, OK. Then in your understanding, Miss Huff - - everyone, with me, the aunt of Amanda Knox -- what is their evidence against Amanda?

HUFF: They simply don`t have any evidence against Amanda. There is nothing. There`s lots of guesses, there`s theories, there`s stories.

GRACE: OK.

HUFF: Nothing physical.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no evidence. There`s no physical evidence, there`s no eyewitness, there`s no confession. There`s no case. We have a prosecutor who`s been indicted and is currently on trial for official misconduct, illegal wiretaps, harassing media personnel, et cetera.

His own prosecutors in that country have called him a man with a case of delirium. That`s a quote from the prosecutor in his case. This case would not be prosecuted anywhere else in the world. This is a tragedy. This kid has been in prison for 15 months now. It would be funny if it wasn`t so tragic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Matt Zarrell. Matt, everyone keeps say they don`t have any evidence. Then how do they bring the case to court? What do they have against this girl?

ZARRELL: Well, they believe that Kercher on November 1st, 2007 came home from a friend`s house and at that point her --she was attached, her throat was slit. She choked on her own blood and was left partially clothed on the floor.

They alleged that Kercher died fending off a sex-based attack by Knox, Sollecito, and the third man Rudy Guede in her room. They claimed that Sollecito held Kercher by the shoulder from behind while Knox touched her with a point of a knife and then Guede, allegedly tried to sexually assault her, and then Knox finished her off by stabbing her in the throat.

GRACE: I understand that scenario, but what is the evidence they`ve got against her?

ZARRELL: Well, a lot of what they have is their forensic experts believe that not only the footprints that they talk about, but they have a -- they have her fingerprints, obviously, in the home, and they have the bra strap, as was mentioned, linking Sollecito, which does not make the alibi for Knox work. It doesn`t make it hold up.

GRACE: Back to Steve Shay with the "West Seattle Herald," what can you tell me about alleged video of the girl near the apartment at the time?

SHAY: That I`m not sure. I wanted to mention that Anne Bremner and the others are beautifully demonstrating the DNA flaws, but the mental image, they don`t have a motive that`s DNA based, so they`re trying to discredit her personality, her demeanor.

Now I`ve talked to her sister, Deanna, her parents, stepparents, grandmother and her college friends and they all say the same thing, that she was worried that when she got back the next morning, after spending the night with her boyfriend, that she could have been the victim instead of Meredith -- instead of Meredith.

So that`s why she was in shock. That`s why she acted the way she did. And she certainly did cry.

GRACE: OK. You know what? I appreciate your theory on motive, but I`m trying to find out about video taken of them.

Matt Zarrell, what do you know about video taken of the American and her boyfriend?

ZARRELL: Well, apparently, there are reports, you know, as we know, that Knox just claimed that she was at Sollecito`s apartment that night. There are reports that she was caught, as we talked about, on camera walking towards the apartment she shared with Kercher the night Kercher was killed.

GRACE: Back to Anne Bremner, attorney out of Seattle with the Friends of Amanda Knox. What can you tell me about this video that police say places her at the apartment?

BREMNER: It just -- when I think about why I got involved in this case, trying to turn around this supertanker of misinformation in the media and the British tabloids in Italy, this is another example. This was just ablaze. There are no bloody footprints of Amanda Knox. There`s no match Raffaele`s foot?

GRACE: The video? Video.

BREMNER: Ablaze. Yes. It doesn`t identify her. That was.

GRACE: What is the video, Anne? That`s what I`m asking you.

BREMNER: It shows -- the video, like I just said, Nancy, is just someone`s legs.

GRACE: Where?

BREMNER: You can`t identify her that way.

GRACE: Look, Anne, I realize you`ve got skin in the game. You`ve got a dog in the fight. I understand that. Could you just tell me, where`d the video come from? All right? Was it at the gas station, was it outside the apartment, was it in the Macy`s? Where`s the video coming from? What is the video?

BREMNER: You know what, yes, I have a dog in the fight, we all have a dog in the fight which is injustice.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, you know what, never mind. Out to the lines, Mary in Illinois.

BREMNER: It`s right by the house.

GRACE: OK, great. Thanks, Anne.

Mary, what`s your question, dear?

MARY, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Nancy, happy belated Mother`s Day to you also.

GRACE: Thank you very much.

MARY: Oh, you`re welcome. Those precious babies, just got to love them.

Anyway, my question is, I did see an investigative report from another network and they did indicate this prosecutor is quite corrupt. And I was wondering what your take was on it and how much you actually do know relative to his potential corruptness?

GRACE: Well, Mary, regarding the prosecutor`s alleged corruptness, I`ve heard those reports, but I can`t say yea or nay. From what we are hearing, all of the reports seem extremely flawed.

So if you want to take all of the media reports from Europe with a box of salt, then that would say none of it is true, including the prosecution`s corruption. You can`t have your cake and eat it, too.

You can`t say the press is right about his corruption but they`re wrong about the evidence. The evidence is coming out in the courtroom, that`s very black and white. How a jury or a judge will decide for that evidence is completely a different matter.

Out to Penny in Massachusetts. Hi, Penny?

PENNY, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, Nancy. I love your twins. They`re precious.

GRACE: Thank you.

PENNY: The question I had was already answered, that she`s been in jail for 15 months, Amanda. But I wanted to know how is her family -- I mean how are they dealing with it? Do they get to see her every day, once a week or how does that work in Italy?

GRACE: To Janet Huff, the aunt of Amanda Knox. When has the family seen her?

HUFF: The family is allowed to go in for one hour twice a week and the family is disgusted actually by the way that the media is portraying all of the evidence that`s coming out in court.

If something`s coming out in court like the bloody footprints that aren`t actually in blood, it just gets regurgitated over and over again as being fact, that it`s black and white, when actually, you`re regurgitating a lie. So the family is disgusted by how this is being portrayed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUFF: Amanda is -- she`s a wonderful girl, who has never even been accused of hurting somebody`s feelings let alone caused anyone any physical harm. She`s honest, caring, wonderful person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, I had a little comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your twins are beautiful.

GRACE: Thank you so much, I am blessed.

Well, Mommy cut Lucy`s hair today, so when you see that, I`ll let you reassess their appearance. It didn`t come out exactly as I had planned, but thank you. And what is your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing could damage their beauty and yours as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, you`re amazing.

GRACE: I am so not. But I was up from 2:30 to 5:30 in the morning with the twins who are sick, hence Mommy can`t talk.

You know, I keep wanting to show the Easter photos that we took of them. Believe me, we practiced egg hunting so they would have the edge. They ended up giving all their eggs to other children.

I really believe the three of us would not be here if it were not for your prayers which I believe were heard.

In five days, my twins turned 18 months old. And I can say that out of all the years I have been alive, 49 years, these have been the best 18 months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Thank you, Dean and Liz and control room. That was a real surprise.

Let`s stop and remember Navy Engineman First Class Theo Ansong, 34, Bristow, Virginia. Originally from Ghana. Wanted to serve the Navy ever since his family arrived here. Awarded the Navy Marine Corps Achievement medal. Dreamed of starting an engineering company. Loved the sea. Mentoring his younger brothers. Leaves behind grieving parents Nelson and Charity, four brothers.

Theo Ansong, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your homes. I`ll see tomorrow night 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END