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Nancy Grace

New Developments in Missing Baby Gabriel Case

Aired January 06, 2010 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Arizona. A gorgeous 23-year-old mom takes off from her home, Tempe, Arizona, by car for a 978- mile road trip with this beautiful 8-month-old baby boy, Gabriel. She ends up spending Christmas in a local motel alone, San Antonio, Texas, along the way calling the 25-year-old biological father, threatening he`d never see the baby again, even telling him baby Gabriel is dead. Turns out Mommy was trying to give the baby away the whole time to an Arizona couple. December 30th, Mommy`s located in a Miami Beach, Florida, youth hostel, minus the baby, her car abandoned somewhere between Tempe, San Antonio and Miami Beach.

Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, Mommy`s car located, San Antonio Motel 6, baby`s carseat still inside. Tonight, we learn Mommy alone, no baby Gabriel, takes a Greyhound bus to Florida, December 27th the last day of any credible sighting of baby Gabriel alive. Primetime exclusive tonight. The Arizona couple, that couple set to secretly adopt baby Gabriel, with us live.

Tonight, what did Mommy tell them from behind bars? Does she really claim she gives the baby away to an anonymous couple she just met at a public park? Tonight, can we save the little baby with an angel face, baby Gabriel?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... in the case of missing Arizona boy, 8-month- old Gabriel Johnson. The FBI is currently working on processing the car of Gabriel`s mother, found last night outside a motel in San Antonio, Texas.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do know that Elizabeth took Gabriel from Arizona to Texas and that she stayed in two different hotels while she was down there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators are hoping evidence in an abandoned car will lead them to the missing toddler Gabriel Johnson.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s got to provide some sort of clues, mileage, information left inside of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reports are authorities believe Gabriel`s mother, Elizabeth Johnson, bought a bus ticket on December 27th and was alone when she boarded the bus headed to Florida.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then it`s from the point pretty much of December 26th, December 27th of 2009, up until this point, that we don`t know where the child is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, Elizabeth Johnson has not provided us any information on even Gabriel`s condition, much less his whereabouts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Johnson told the adoptive couple, Tammi and Jack Smith, that she gave Gabriel to a couple she met at a park in San Antonio but can`t remember their last name, address or phone number.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She put in the text, I killed him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She killed him?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s, I killed him, is what she said.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did she abandon that car? There was a reason. Either it was inoperable or there was a reason to leave it behind because it was going to incriminate her. But a lot of answers will come from that vehicle and we`re going to know in the real near future.


GRACE: And tonight, live to Utah, the mystery surrounding the sudden suspicious disappearance of a beautiful young stock broker, the mother of two little children. Investigators combing the family home, the family van and a rented vehicle. Why did Daddy take his two little boys camping at midnight in freezing weather the night Mommy goes missing? I don`t like it! At this hour, still no sign of the 28-year-old mother of two, the story taking even more bizarre twists and turns. Tonight, where is Susan Powell?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any idea what happened to her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Thank you. And any help to try to find her would be appreciated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: West Valley police say Joshua Powell remains their only person of interest in Susan`s disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speculation comes from Josh`s story that he took his 2 and 4-year-old sons camping in the freezing cold of the west deserts on the night Susan disappeared from their West Valley home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of times, I just go camping with my boys. You know, not -- not anything big. I just go overnight and we do is s`mores and stuff like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know there was quite a huge effort out in the west desert looking for any sign of her. Is that where you were camping?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just have to go get my boys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was at the vigil in Susan and Josh Powell`s home town of Puyallup that Josh arrived with one of their sons, friends surprised he`d leave Utah during the investigation...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to hear a credible story about -- I`d like to know the facts of what happened. What does he know? What does he not know? And if it clears him, that`s great because now we can get on to the main focus, which is, Where is my daughter at?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t do anything. I mean, I -- I don`t know where she`s at. I -- I don`t even know where to start looking.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Live to Arizona. A 23-year-old mother takes off from her home, Tempe, Arizona, by car for a 978-mile road trip with this beautiful 8- month-old baby boy, baby Gabriel. She ends up spending Christmas alone with the baby in a local motel, San Antonio, Texas, calling the 25-year-old biological father, telling him baby Gabriel is dead. Turns out she was trying to give the baby away the whole time to an Arizona couple. Mommy`s located in Miami Beach, minus the baby, her car abandoned.

Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, Mommy`s car located, San Antonio, baby`s carseat still inside. Tonight, we learn Mommy alone, no baby Gabriel, hops a Greyhound bus to Florida December 27th. Now, that`s the last day of any credible sighting of baby Gabriel alive. She claims she gave the baby away during this road trip to a couple she had just met at a public park.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details emerge in the case of missing 8-month- old Arizona boy Gabriel Johnson. The vehicle Gabriel`s mother, Elizabeth Johnson, was last seen in has been found in San Antonio, Texas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s where 8-month-old Gabriel was last seen with her, and she won`t tell authorities where her baby is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The car was located at a motel across the street from a bus station. Cops reportedly believe Johnson bought a bus ticket on December 27th and boarded the bus alone, the bus going to Florida, where Johnson was later arrested for custodial interference.

GRACE: She tells the bio dad that the baby is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was scared when she first said it and went right to the police station. I didn`t know what to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say Johnson has previously made threats to harm her son and just recently lost custodial rights to the child.

GRACE: Now everybody`s saying, Oh, she said that because she wanted him to sign the papers to give the baby away for adoption.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basically, didn`t want me to have him and wanted to put him up for adoption, a better life. That`s what she kept saying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And authorities say there are no signs of obvious violence in the vehicle. Police are still working to find Gabriel, who Johnson allegedly claims she left with a couple she met at a park in San Antonio but cannot remember their last name, where they live or how to get in touch with them.


GRACE: We are getting in information even now, as I am going to air. I have just learned in my ear that there are four security cameras there at that San Antonio bus station, that the FBI has come -- has just come and taken all of the surveillance video on and around December 27th.

Now, that is the day that this mother -- should she deserve that title, I don`t think so -- last time she was spotted, that was December 27. The baby was spotted that day. There`s a credible sighting of the baby alive December 27. So we`re waiting to find out the results of that video footage that the FBI has taken from the San Antonio Greyhound bus station.

Straight out to Michael Board, reporter, WOAI Newsradio, joining us from San Antonio. Michael, what can you tell me?

MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: I talked to the FBI this afternoon and they said they are still combing the San Antonio area. They believe that there are maybe possibly clues in San Antonio as to where this beautiful 8- month-old baby boy is.

Nancy, I put this question to the FBI when I spoke to them this afternoon. How does a single mother without a job pay for a bus ticket to Miami, pay for hotel rooms, pay for gas? I asked the FBI, Are you looking into the possibility that this so-called mother sold the baby? They would not answer my question. They say that is still under investigation. They`re not talking about any leads in this particular case. But Nancy, you have to think, where does a single mother without a job get the money to drive from Arizona to San Antonio, stay in hotels and get a bus ticket to Miami?

GRACE: Did she have a job, Matt Zarrell?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: ... didn`t, and she never checked out of the hotel. So for all we know, she never even paid the actual hotel bill.

GRACE: So she has no job, no means of support. And so Michael Board, let me ask you this. How much does it cost to get a one-way Greyhound bus ticket from San Antonio to Miami Beach?

BOARD: Well, we know she had to pay for gas money to get from Arizona to San Antonio. She borrowed her grandfather`s car to get from there to here. That`s a couple hundred bucks in gas money right there, a lot of money if you don`t have a job and are paying for a child. Plus, you have to think you have to feed that child, you have to put diapers on that child. And you have a buy a bus ticket, which for this bus line, couple hundred bucks for a one-way ticket from San Antonio to Miami.

Where do you get that kind of cash? Nancy, what are the ideas we can think about here? I don`t want to go to some of the areas where you think of. But one possible idea I put to the FBI, Did she sell this child? It`s definitely a possibility. We got to think about that.

GRACE: With me right now in a primetime exclusive, two very special guests, special to me, Jack Smith and Tammi Peters Smith. They are the Phoenix, Arizona, couple that had pinned their hopes and dreams, attached their heart to this little baby, baby Gabriel, in the hopes that they were going to get to call him their baby boy, that they were going to adopt baby Gabriel. They had been on the string with this woman, Elizabeth Johnson, age 23, for some time.

Jack and Tammi, thank you for being with us. First to you, Jack Smith.


GRACE: I`m very disturbed. I`m disturbed about why -- why didn`t she just go ahead and give you the baby? Why give the baby to some people she just met at some public park, for Pete`s sake? Jack Smith, what do you think?

JACK SMITH: Well, you know, again, we don`t know what`s in her mind. And I would love to think I know what`s in her mind, but I don`t. If I did, baby Gabriel would be with us and back here in Arizona. The reason she didn`t give him to us is because the father was saying he wasn`t going to do that. And this is the first time we had had a chance to be with -- to talk with the father. So he was saying he wasn`t going to do it. So that basically left her with no alternative but to go...


JACK SMITH: ... in her mind, but to go.

GRACE: Tammi Smith, did she ever want money from you guys?

TAMMI SMITH: Never once did she ask for anything -- not a ride, not a meal, not to borrow a quarter, nothing.

GRACE: Do you think, Tammi, that she is capable of killing this baby?

TAMMI SMITH: You know, from what I know of her, I don`t believe so. But I`ve only known her maybe three or four weeks.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... on his face all the time, always moving around and doing stuff. Loved to play.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An intense search for a baby boy, cute little Gabriel Johnson, an 8-month-old who vanishes days after Christmas. Well, now his mother`s arrested. The baby`s father says she sent text messages the little boy was dead.

GRACE: She calls the dad a couple times to say, You`ll never see the baby again. I`ve killed the baby. All along, apparently, she`s tried to adopt the baby out, possibly for money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether it`s true or false, that`s a terrible way to tell a father anything about his own son. To text it or even to e- mail it is cruel. And she`s playing games, obviously doesn`t want the father to have any contact with this child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a pretty destructive woman, and as has been said so many times, she`s very manipulative.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mom was not concerned with the child`s safety. If she was, she would have focused on being a better mom and ensuring her rights to custody, not control. She`s worried about control over that child and it`s about spiting the father.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to court documents, she had hidden this child one other time and had it at a friend`s house and accused Logan of taking or hiding the child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is about long-standing issues that she`s had with the father of the child. This is really about these two fighting, and the child is collateral damage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We spoke about some of the threats that were potentially made by -- or were made by Elizabeth to harm Gabriel. So we had that information initially. Now some information that possibly Gabriel was given up in an adoption situation. We`re still trying to confirm if either of those stories is true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The car was located yesterday, probably about 4:40 Arizona time, about 5:40 in the San Antonio time zone. And the great thing that came out of that for us was that Gabriel was not in the vehicle. And investigators are still trying to sort through that vehicle, process that vehicle for evidence.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go back to Jack and Tammi Smith, the Arizona couple that had planned to adopt baby Gabriel. Thank you for being with us.

JACK SMITH: You`re welcome.

GRACE: Have you spoken to her since she has been behind bars, Mr. Smith?

JACK SMITH: We did. We talked to her, and we had the local channel here tape it so that there was no questions about what was said and what was done and how it was done.

GRACE: What did you learn?

JACK SMITH: Well, one thing we learned is where the car was because it was right after that up-feed or upload that -- it`s our understanding that right after the upload, we did find out where the car was. So they were able to find the car after we did the interview. Nobody said that it was attributed necessarily to that, but it was -- they found it at 4:00 o`clock, and we were -- did the interview at 2:00, and then they immediately uploaded it. So that came from it.

To be honest with you, we had a list of questions -- the questions, you know, we wanted to -- the main question that we wanted, obviously, was, Where is Gabriel? Where is this little sweet, wonderful baby? And at that point, she said that she met a couple in the park. And I do have the name of the park (INAUDIBLE) we didn`t know this until the afternoon. It`s Raymond Russell Park.

GRACE: Raymond Russell Park? So she remembered that, but she didn`t remember...


GRACE: She didn`t remember that?

JACK SMITH: Forgive me. No, this comes from -- and I don`t mean to go off track here, but...


JACK SMITH: ... but we have -- we have focused our life for the last few days since all this happened. We`re on the phone all day, trying to find out as much information. We have contacts. We have sources. Ain`t that cool? We have sources in San Antonio with a radio station and -- radio and telephone stations there.

GRACE: So you figured out it was Raymond Russell Park.

JACK SMITH: Raymond Russell Park is where -- where they -- and we also found out through that source that when she bought the bus ticket, she bought it as Elizabeth Jones.

GRACE: Is it true, Ms. Smith, that you learned she checked in and paid for the hotel room a week ahead of time?

TAMMI SMITH: Yes. She told me that she was paid up until Sunday. And we had her basically ready to come back. Sunday morning, she was going to come back. We had offered to help her with an attorney so that she could keep the custody and the custody would not go to the father.

GRACE: And then out of the blue, she just takes off?


GRACE: Where do you think she got the money, Ms. Smith, to buy the ticket? It`s about 150 bucks a ticket, plus the gas she needed to get from Tempe down to San Antonio.

TAMMI SMITH: All I know is that a few days prior to her leaving, she had told me she had -- we saw her dogs. She had two Yorkies. And she sold the two dogs for $500. She rented a room to her roommate for $400 cash, and he confirmed that. And then I believe she got her last -- what is it called?

JACK SMITH: Unemployment.

TAMMI SMITH: Unemployment check. And she did have -- she did have WIC for the baby, for all his food.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She thinks that what she`s doing is keeping her baby safe. And it`s crazy, but that`s what she`s doing.

GRACE: Take a look at where she speaks. This lady does not have a mental problem. She`s absolutely coherent. She sees what`s going on around her. She is answering his questions quickly and concisely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the baby is alive, what she did is one of the cruelest and most manipulative moves that one could imagine, telling him that his child is dead. If the baby`s alive, she needs to come forth and let the authorities know where the baby is so that they can put this case to rest.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I`m going to unleash the lawyers, John Burris and Daniel Horowitz, in just one moment. But first, back to Jack Smith and Tammi Smith, the couple that had planned to adopt baby Gabriel.

What is giving me a glimmer of hope, Tammi Smith, is that this is very similar to the way that she met you.

TAMMI SMITH: It is. It`s almost exact.

GRACE: What happened?

TAMMI SMITH: I met her in an airport. She was depressed, crying. She -- her face was drooped down. Instead of holding the baby here, the baby was down here. And I just knew the second I saw her, there is something wrong there. And she said -- I sat down. She said something, and I don`t remember what it was. This was seven months ago. And I just immediately -- What do you want to do with your baby, you know? And we -- it went on from there.

GRACE: And from there, she was willing to just give you the baby?

TAMMI SMITH: Well, no, not back then. Yes, I did hold the baby in the airport. I held the baby in the plane ride once we got up in the air. She brought me the baby to hold. And then when we were about to descend back down to the ground, she came back and got the baby again. Did not hear from her again once we helped her to her car, once we got back to Arizona from the plane. Didn`t hear from her again until December 8th around 9:00 or 10:00 o`clock at night, saying, Do you still want to adopt him?

GRACE: So this is so similar to what she`s saying happened to baby Gabriel. She meets this couple in a public park, and they were kind and caring and she just gave them the baby. Why do you believe, Mr. Smith, she wanted to give away the baby?

JACK SMITH: You know -- and this is something that -- and I would like to interject here, if it`s OK. We are for the finding of this baby. We are not on a side. But I think that she`s looking at things through non-normal eyes. Our normal eyes say, That`s crazy. Non-normal eyes say, It happens every day. You give your child -- you give your child to a stranger, if you`re going to adopt -- but albeit, there`s a lot that goes on before the adoption papers happen. So that`s my guess.



TAMMI PETERS SMITH, PLANNED TO ADOPT BABY GABRIEL: The main thing is that she wanted him with a good family that loved him and that would actually take care of him.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tammi Smith remembers the day almost eight months ago she met Elizabeth and Gabriel Johnson.

T. SMITH: And I just could read it in her face that she did not want to be a mother.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And Tammi says the father wasn`t around and when he was.

T. SMITH: Yes, there were a lot of threats and a lot of things, underhanded things, that were done. Because of his record and because of what the things he had done to her and the baby, there was no way she was going to give him that baby.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tammi says months went by then last month she received a call from Elizabeth.

T. SMITH: She finally called and said, are you ready to adopt him?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The two parties signed legal guardianship papers and Gabriel moved in with the Smiths.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But the baby`s dad wouldn`t sign guardianship or adoption papers. Still, Gabriel quickly became part of the Smith family, visiting Santa, playing with 4-year-old Hannah.

Then, December 18th, Elizabeth picked up her son to visit his father. Little did the Smiths know, the two were taking off to San Antonio.

T. SMITH: We were trying so desperately to get her back here. And every time she was ready to come back, she would get a phone call threatening her.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The Smiths believe the baby is safe and that his mother, now behind bars, will never say where.

T. SMITH: She loved that baby enough that I believe, I believe, that she would probably stay in jail the rest of her life to make sure he was safe from the person that she wants to keep him from.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls. Out to Jessica, Nevada, hi, Jessica.

JESSICA, CALLER FROM NEVADA: Hi, Nancy. Your twins are beautiful. My question is, have the alleged couple who the mother gave the baby to, is she -- are they going to be faced with criminal charges if they don`t come forward?

GRACE: Good question. John Burris, Daniel Horowitz -- first to you, Daniel Horowitz, joining us out of San Francisco, could that couple be facing charges?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, every state has a different set of laws, but I think it`s a kidnapping. The father has rights to that child. And whoever is keeping the child is taking him away from the father.

We may be picking on the father now, saying he`s not a good dad, but his rights are superior to anyone else`s until the court says differently.

GRACE: I`m not picking on anybody except a mom that gives a baby away to a couple she meets in a public park. All right?

HOROWITZ: Well, we`re presuming the dad`s not a good dad.

GRACE: So don`t start with that.

HOROWITZ: Aren`t we? We`re presuming the dad is not a good dad.

GRACE: I`m not presuming anything. So let`s just stick with the program of trying to find the baby, all right? If you can just focus, you know, keep it in the middle of the road, Daniel Horowitz.

Burris, you know, I don`t know that this couple, if they exist, thinks they took the baby away from the father. They may not even know that the father`s in the picture.

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with that. I don`t think that family without more information is liable for any criminal conduct. They don`t really know anything. As far as they know the baby was given to them in a consensual way.

And until proven otherwise I don`t think they have any obligation. They shouldn`t have any criminal conduct that they were engaged in.

GRACE: Marc Klaas, president and founder KlaasKids Foundation. Weigh in, Marc. What`s the likelihood that we can find this baby if the baby is still alive? Now the would-be adoptive parents, Tammi and Jack Smith, have given us the name of the park that they believe she handed the baby over.

It`s Raymond Russell County Park. We`ve got shots of it, Elizabeth, if you could show those to the viewers.

Everyone, our tip line -- I believe we`ve got a new tip line. But the one I have right now is 480-350-8311.

What do you think, Marc Klaas?

MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think -- if her story is true, the chances of recovering the child are very good. And what you need to do is draw a radius around that park of maybe two or three miles and then look for a couple that has a new baby that just came into their life.

This beautiful little child. And it would be a couple that has a baby that came into their life unexpectedly. If one is going to adopt a baby, that`s a long process that you oftentimes talk to your neighbors and your friends about before it ultimately occurs.

So if, in fact, the child is alive, the Smiths just made it a lot easier for the authorities to be able to find the child.

But I also have to agree with what Daniel said, because the Smiths have done nothing more than vilify this father since they came on the show with a variety of the statements that they`ve made. And as I understand it, they didn`t even meet the guy until recently.

They seem to be buying everything that this woman is saying hook, line and sinker.

GRACE: OK. Hold on.

KLAAS: All she has done is lie.

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. I am not here -- none of us are here tonight to vilify anybody.

KLAAS: But it`s been done.

GRACE: I do find it very disturbing that the mother gave the baby away to a couple she had met 20 minutes before in a public park. That`s my focus. All right? Now, speaking of the Smiths, I want to go back to Jack and Tammi Smith.

Two questions. Number one, I think that it would be crucial, since you were around her, you spent time with her and the baby, you`ve spoken to her since she`s been behind bars. What was her state of mind when you spoke to her last, Miss Smith?

T. SMITH: I`m sorry. That wasn`t me -- what was her state of mind when I spoke to her yesterday?

GRACE: Right.

T. SMITH: You know, to be honest with you, she sounded a little bit cheery. Whenever she was dealing with the whole custody issue, she was not cheery, she was very depressed and distraught. It seems as though she seemed happier and safer being in jail than she did out of jail and going through this whole custody issue.

GRACE: Mr. Smith, when you were dealing with her about adopting baby Gabriel, what was her state of mind at that point?

J. SMITH: You know, we -- honestly we had some concerns. I mean, again, we`re looking at -- as I mentioned earlier, we`re looking through normal eyes. It feels -- it felt a little odd, but you know what, we felt like that we could be helping this baby also if this mother did have any kind of potential emotional problems.

So we were basically -- our theory at that point was we are a baby- sitter. Because we understand the whole principle. We`ve adopted -- Hannah is adopted. So we know the process. We -- you know, we got Hannah in our house at 4 months old and the adoption wasn`t final until 2 -- until she was 2.

GRACE: Let me ask you, guys, something. You have come forward and been very forthright. What, if anything, do you have to gain from coming forward, Miss Smith? I mean, you did not have to put yourself in the public eye at all, but you have. Why?

T. SMITH: And it`s been extremely exhausting. I`ve only had a couple of hours` sleep since yesterday. We`re doing this because we fell in love with this baby. We have nothing to gain except for the fact that we know that we have gotten to the point where we kind of know Elizabeth`s mentality from getting to know her over the past few weeks and we believe we can help find this baby and return -- or help to return him to his family.

GRACE: We`re taking your calls, everybody. To Tammy in Nevada, hi, Tammy.


GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?

TAMMY: Listen, I just want to tell you I love your show. I never miss it. I`ve watched you from the old days.


GRACE: Thank you.

TAMMY: I also want to thank you and tell you how much I appreciate your dedication to help seek the truth for the innocent out there.

GRACE: Thank you.

TAMMY: I was wondering, I know you talked about cameras at the station, but do you know if there were any at the Motel 6 or the park, perhaps? And my heart goes out to everybody involved in this and I just pray that this is not another Casey Anthony story.

I mean, you know, no matter what.

GRACE: I`ve been thinking the same thing, Tammy in Nevada.

TAMMY: Yes. And no matter what.

GRACE: I mean her answers are so vague and ambiguous. Exactly the way tot mom`s were.

To Michael Board, do we know if there were surveillance cameras at the Motel 6?

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: We know that there might have been but the chances are of them actually running and them having the tapes are probably pretty slim. This isn`t a high-class joint. Probably not around.

As for the park, no, there`s no security tapes around there either. So the chance of the actual handoff or whatever it was very unlikely to have happened out there.

GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us from New York. Caryn, weigh in.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I`ll tell you something, Nancy. The whole thing is extremely suspicious and improbable. She gave the baby away like she`s giving away a used book? It doesn`t make a lot of sense. The fact that she keeps changing the story, as you just pointed out, as Casey Anthony, that somebody who could definitely be a liar, who`s a pathological liar, and says to the father, well, the baby is dead but then says, well, she gave the baby away but she doesn`t know whom she gave the baby to.

GRACE: You know what, Caryn, she told the father she killed the baby. I`ll get your thoughts on that when we get back.

Tonight as we go to break, we`re taking your calls live and we are asking for your prayers for a tiny crime fighter, Georgia boy, Jack. He`s just 8 and this beautiful little boy is battling cancer.

Jack, please, stay strong.

To send well wishes or donate, go to



UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How have the past days been for you and your family?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very stressful. Very emotional.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you believe your son is still alive at this point?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a feeling. Hoping.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is there something you want to tell your son?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you. Wherever you`re at. I hope you come home safe.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Anything you want to tell Elizabeth?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not really at this time. Hopefully down the road we can see, you know. I always wanted Gabriel, you know, to be a part of his mother`s life, too. I just want to find him.

STEVE CARBAJAL, TEMPE, ARIZONA POLICE DEPARTMENT: We are optimistic at this point. Still, we`re still receiving some indications that Gabriel is alive. That`s the premise that we`re operating under and really that`s what`s keeping our investigators going on a daily basis is that hope that Gabriel is still alive.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go out to Bill Golodner, former NYPD detective, president of Kindershield Agency.

Bill, thank you for being with us. What do you make of it?

BILL GOLODNER, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE, PRESIDENT OF KINDERSHIELD AGENCY: Thanks very much, Nancy. I have to tell you, we have to pray for the best but we have to expect the worst. I have to say I agree with Caryn Stark, the psychologist. There are way too many loose ends here.

This is a woman who changes her story the way the wind blows. Beyond that, I have not heard of any diminished mental capacity on her part. So her story about not wanting to know who this person is, who she was allegedly going to give this child to, she certainly knew enough about the Smiths.

She was certainly able to get back in contact with them sometime after her original meeting. There`s just too many loose ends here. And I bet that in the end of this story we`re going to find out some disastrous outcome. I pray not but this could happen.

GRACE: To Dr. Gwenn O`Keefe, pediatrician, founder and CEO of, joining us out of Boston.

Dr. O`Keefe, thank you for being with us. What position -- if the child is alive right now, what position is that child in health-wise?

DR. GWENN O`KEEFE, M.D., PHYSICIAN, FOUNDER & CEO OF PEDIATRIACSNOW.COM: I`m pretty concerned, Nancy. We don`t really know where the baby is or who the baby is with. But the baby is clearly going to be stressed out. We have to be concerned that the baby is not getting fed enough, not getting the emotional needs that Gabriel needs.

And I think that we have to be just concerned that the baby is going to be environmentally in an unsafe situation because 8-month-olds are fairly mobile. So depending on where he is he could get himself into a lot of trouble if he`s left alone, especially if it`s a cold area. So I think his health is at great risk.

GRACE: You know, just thinking back on Lucy and John David at 8 months, and they were so helpless. And if this child has any special needs -- you know what`s amazing to me, Dr. O`Keefe, is even with this mother obviously not wanting the baby, the baby probably loved the mother.

You know, just.

O`KEEFE: Absolutely. 8-month-olds are so endearing and they just -- they love unconditionally. And I can only imagine how stressed out this child is right now.

GRACE: To Burris and Horowitz -- first to you, John Burris. Is there any way that a plea can be made to this anonymous couple that they will not be prosecuted if they bring the baby back?

BURRIS: Absolutely. I think that that`s something that can be done. I don`t think they`ve committed a crime at this stage. And so I think now that notice is out, the community knows that information can be given to them and they can bring that baby back any day and any time without fear of prosecution from my point of view.

GRACE: Daniel Horowitz?

HOROWITZ: If the couple thinks that the father is such a bad guy that he would hurt the child and they`re protecting the child, I can see why they may hide Gabriel. But now that you know that the dad is not so bad, bring him home to the dad. Let the courts figure out where this child goes. Maybe to the Smiths. Maybe to the Smiths. So maybe this couple wants to do the right thing. I hope so.

GRACE: Carny Stark, I`d like you to finish your thought before we went to break.

STARK: My thought was, Nancy, think about this. She just met this couple. Her story is that the father is terrible. The father, you know, can`t be trusted. She wants the baby to be safe. She knows nothing about this couple. How does she know that the baby`s going to be safe? It doesn`t make a lot of sense.

GRACE: So you don`t think that any of that is true?

STARK: Well, it doesn`t sound true to me.

GRACE: Well, it doesn`t sound true to me, either, but again, the only glimmer of hope that I have here is -- back to Tammi and Jack Smith-- she just met them at an airport. At a public airport. Befriends them and plans to give the baby to them. It`s very similar to the scenario that she`s come up with -- that she`s telling police.

Back to Jack and Tammi Smith.

Jack Smith, isn`t it true that when she was dealing with you guys, she didn`t even want to know where you lived? She didn`t want to know anything about you.

J. SMITH: No, not -- she didn`t because we actually invited her over. Don`t you want to come and see where his room would be? And don`t you want to come and see where his play area would be? And she said, no, I don`t want to know where you live.

GRACE: What was her reason?

J. SMITH: Because in her mind that -- well, in her mind that was the -- that was a closed adoption. Again, I can`t think -- I can`t think like her. I wish I could and we`d find the baby, but -- that`s my only reasoning is that she wanted a closed adoption. She wanted this part of her life and wanted to go -- I don`t understand that. My maternal.

GRACE: But that was the same -- it`s almost like a script that she`s reading from the. The very same thing she did with them is basically what she did with you. She didn`t want to know anything about you, she didn`t want to know your address, nothing. She just wanted it to be a done deal to have the baby in a happy family.

Good-bye, baby Gabriel.

J. SMITH: It don`t make sense to us. And that`s the reason we kept hanging on to her and trying to better understand her because it didn`t make any se. But you know what? We understand private adoptions happen every day, and, you know -- so I don`t believe.

GRACE: Right.

J. SMITH: You know what I`m saying. Hopefully.

GRACE: Yes. That she -- if this is true, that she thought she was doing anything wrong. I just pray to God in heaven that it is true and the baby is alive tonight.

Tip line, 480-350-8311. Take a look at baby Gabriel. And whoever you are out there with this baby, if the story is true, please, please bring the baby back.

We`re switching gears. I want to tell you about a missing mom. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just miss her and we want her back and I love her and my boys love her. I`ve been trying to figure out what I can do so I don`t sit idle. I just went with the boys, was planning to do some.


GRACE: Straight to you, Jim Kirkwood, KTKK News Radio. We are talking about Susan Powell, 28-year-old mother of two, goes missing. The father says he takes the kid camping midnight, freezing temperatures, to go make S`mores in the snow? What more do we know tonight?

JIM KIRKWOOD, REPORTER, KTKK NEWS RADIO: Well, he was quite a stone- waller. Tom McLaughlin, the captain -- police captain at West Valley Police Department in Utah describes him as a -- demonstrating a frustrating lack of cooperation. I think you`ve heard this story before, Nancy.

GRACE: We`re going to be back with more on Susan Powell. But as we go to break, happy 80th birthday to Massachusetts friend Benny Gluck. A World War II veteran. He invented the elastic waistband for women`s slacks.

Thank you, Benny. He`s a proud uncle of 14 nieces and nephews. Happy birthday, Benny.



CHUCK COX, SUSAN POWELL`S FATHER: I would like to hear a credible story about -- I would like to know the facts of what happened, what does he know, what does he not know? And if it clears him, that`s great. Because now we can get on to the main focus, which is where`s my daughter at?


GRACE: We`re talking about a missing mom of two. There she is, Susan Powell. Age 28.

Clark Goldband, our producer on the story, what can you tell me?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: As the investigation continues at this hour, Nancy, Josh Powell has been named a person of interest. He is the sole person of interest at this time.

Also, Nancy, law enforcement asking questions about a rental car Josh Powell had just two days after his car had been searched. Powell apparently driving the car several hundred miles according to law enforcement investigators.

And they want to know where in Utah could you possibly drive several hundred miles in just a 24-hour time span?

GRACE: So explain to me again, Clark, the scenario of the evening she goes missing?

GOLDBAND: Well, it was on December 6th, Nancy, around 12:00 a.m. that night when Josh Powell says he took his two sons, 4 and 2, out camping to test a new generator. His wife, Susan, he claims, was sleeping and the three of them left. They drove about an hour and a half away on the Pony Express trail and supposedly made S`mores, and Susan Powell`s friends and family couldn`t get in contact with her until 24 hours the next day.

They finally got in contact with Josh. And he said I didn`t know you were looking for me. He missed his day of work at a job he had apparently just started. Susan also missed work. And the mystery continues.

GRACE: Jim Kirkwood with KTKK, didn`t he say he lost track of the days?

KIRKWOOD: Yes. Apparently he`s famous for that sort of thing, Nancy.

GRACE: Really?

KIRKWOOD: Yes. He has employment problems.

GRACE: And Marc Klaas, what to you make of it?

KLAAS: Well, I think that he`s an irresponsible, immature little man that needs a mother more than he needed a wife. She is the one that was carrying the weight in this relationship. I have to commend her friends and family for the incredible work they`ve done on the Internet campaign to bring to the attention millions and millions of people via Facebook, twitter and YouTube.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Gregory Millard, 22, San Diego, California. Killed, Iraq. From a family of military vets, also served in New Orleans after Katrina. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Infantry Badge.

Loved cycling, roller hockey, fishing with his older brother, woodworking. Never met a stranger, dreamed of marrying fiance after asking her father for her hand in marriage. Leaves behind grieving parents, Kevin and Jill, brother Joseph, fiance Lacey.

Gregory Millard, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And please, continue to pray for baby Gabriel. Until then, good night, friend.