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Nancy Grace

Missing Woman`s Body Found in Submerged Car

Aired April 08, 2010 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Live, South Florida, a beautiful young mother of two disappears after driving her two little boys, ages 5 and 9, to school. Never seen again. Her husband takes to the airwaves, begging her to come home, police combing every square inch of surrounding area. No good. Then on a hunch, investigators take a look at Crystal Lake. There under water, Mommy found slumped over the front seat of the family car, trash bags stuffed over Mommy`s head and feet. Then in a bizarre twist, grainy surveillance video emerges showing Mommy`s car being pushed down the bank into the murky water, the perp taking his time, riding off calmly on a bicycle like nothing happened. Who`s the star of the video? Daddy! Co-star, Mommy`s dead body.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tragic, tragic story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It began on March 23, 2010.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) miss you! Please come back!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Toha was reported missing by her husband, Munawar.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She love her kids, very well, very much so. That I do know that fact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Surya`s distraught husband insists they did not argue and everything else was perfectly normal the morning she disappeared.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We haven`t eliminated foul play.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We made an arrest in a missing person case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A tragic end to the case of missing mom Surya Toha.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We actually arrested her husband and charged him with first degree murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lifeless body is found inside her car, submerged in a lake. Notice how quickly he composed himself. Police tell us he pushed to make that televised plea. All along, detectives were suspicious by his entire performance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His body language and his actions were not consistent with a grieving husband that just -- you know, that just lost his wife.

While off duty, we were thinking about places where the suspect may have put the car. That`s how we located the hole in the fence which ultimately led to the video, which led to the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see him driving the car into the parking lot, then driving the car through the fence, pushing it over the bank, and ultimately, the car going into the water.


GRACE: And breaking tonight. A million-dollar mansion, a TV deal, personal stylists, a fleet of luxury cars, beautiful people, eight beautiful children. They had it all. Then allegations Daddy siphoning the last drop of the family money to support his girlfriend and his lavish lifestyle, siphoning to the tune of $250,000. Allegations of illegal wiretaps, phone taps, bank account, computer surveillance by Daddy, a known computer specialist, charges of drug use, X-rated sleepovers with a female bartender Daddy allegedly hires to baby-sit in the home with the children asleep upstairs. That`s the tip of the iceberg. Who? "Jon and Kate Plus 8." Who else?

With the ink barely dry on divorce papers, Mommy Kate not only hits the trail for a book tour, but stars on "Dancing With the Stars." Daddy Jon Gosselin -- he moves into a $5,000-a-month bachelor pad in New York City, quote, "exploring job opportunities." After dating a string of women, turning up in bars all over the country, Gosselin now bunking on the sofa at his brother`s house, Maryland, still no job.

But listen to this. The very morning after Kate survives a round of cuts on "Dancing With the Stars," Jon files legal papers -- the morning after -- demanding primary custody of the eight children and insisting he shouldn`t pay child support to her. Oh, no, she should pay him. Bombshell tonight. Kate fires back.


KATE GOSSELIN, "JON AND KATE PLUS 8": I have eight kids to raise essentially, you know, by myself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you afford eight kids?

KATE GOSSELIN: I know what I have to do.

JON GOSSELIN, "JON AND KATE PLUS : Kate and I both love our kids.

KATE GOSSELIN: ... my kids.

JON GOSSELIN: ... the kids.

KATE GOSSELIN: ... eight children.

JON GOSSELIN: Our number one priority for Kate and I is our kids.

GRACE: She`s got the job, he doesn`t.

KATE GOSSELIN: With kids behind you, you can put your mind and do anything.

GRACE: He hasn`t had a job since he did "Jon and Kate Plus 8."

JON GOSSELIN: That`s my job. That`s what I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He gives right now something like $20,000 a month to Kate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is asking the court to review the question of child support.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now he wants Kate to be paying him, and he wants primary custody of the kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is asking the court to review the issue of custody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says she`s an absentee mom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The way the order stands, Kate Gosselin has sole discretion...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... to determine whether or not Jon is able to see the eight children.

KATE GOSSELIN: I did do my best with what I had at that moment...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard-core. It`s (INAUDIBLE) it`s ridiculous.

KATE GOSSELIN: ... for my kids. So I`ve got to continue on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whose side are you on, Kate or Jon?

JON GOSSELIN: Whatever happens, happens.

KATE GOSSELIN: Hey, if anybody`s out there brave enough and great enough, let`s bring them on.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Live, south Florida. Grainy surveillance video emerges showing the car of a beautiful young mother of two being pushed down the bank into Crystal Lake, the murky water at the bottom of the lake, the perp taking his time, riding off calmly on a bicycle like nothing happened. Who`s the star of the surveillance video? Daddy! Co- star, Mommy`s dead body.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Florida police have arrested a husband and father of two after they say video surveillance shows him dumping his missing wife`s body in a lake. Forty-three-year-old mom Surya Toha was last seen after dropping her kids off at school March 23. This week, investigators acting on a hunch were searching in an area behind the building where the husband works and noticed a surveillance camera facing a lake. The surveillance video shows a man who police say is the husband drive up in Surya`s missing car, take a bicycle out of the trunk and proceed to push the car into the lake. Hours later, dive teams were in that lake, where they found the car and Surya`s body in the passenger seat, bag over her head. The husband, Munawar Toha, was later arrested. He`s now facing first degree murder charges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a case that gets more strange with every turn, we have surveillance video showing Surya`s car being pushed into the lake. Watch carefully. First we see a shadowy figure taking a bike out of the back. That`s what police say he used to pedal away from the scene of the crime. Then we watch as he tries desperately to get the car into the water. Police say that shadowy figure is her husband.


GRACE: Wait a minute! Something`s missing. Liz, roll it back. Let`s take a look at Daddy, crying in front of the TV cameras, begging Mommy to come home to her children.


MUNAWAR TOHA, SURYA`S HUSBAND: We miss you. (INAUDIBLE) your children is miss you! Please come home!

She love her kids very well, very much so. That I do know that fact. She loves her kid. She is a good mother. She is very good mother!


GRACE: Yes, she`s such a great mom. I don`t know why I murdered her and pushed her into the lake. Oops.

To Lauren Granado, reporter, anchor, Newsradio 610 WIOD, what led police to Crystal Lake? And how did they get surveillance of a lake?

LAUREN GRANADO, NEWSRADIO 610 WIOD (via telephone): Well, Nancy, the reason that cops ended up at that particular location is because that happens to be the place where Munawar Toha works. That building where the surveillance video was gathered from comes from the building where Munawar Toha works for the Florida Department of Transportation. It happened to be focused on the parking lot at that time. They saw the car pull in, park, a man take the bicycle out of that trunk, and then drive the car into the fence and into the lake.

GRACE: Two Chief Duncan Foster, Coral Springs Police Department. Chief, it is a real pleasure to have you on with us. The chief is joining us out of Miami. So on a hunch, you guys go to Crystal Lake.


GRACE: Then you -- while you`re there, you discover -- good police work, by the way -- you discover -- you look up and you see there`s a surveillance camera. And you believe it`s your duty to try to just see if there`s any video. Right now, you have no idea nothing`s (ph) at the bottom of the lake. Then what happens, Chief?

FOSTER: Well, the officers involved here did such a fantastic job. Three off-duty officers, Brian Koenig (ph), Scott Myers (ph) and Dave Young (ph) -- they went out to the scene. They noticed that a fence had been trampled, and on their own took a boat out to the lake, started taking a look around, thinking, OK, where`s a possible place that maybe a car could have been dumped.

One of the officers look up. They see a videocamera. And they think, What are the chances of this actually getting caught on videotape? Sure enough, we contact the business owner. They give us permission to take a look at the videotape. And the tape that you saw -- obviously, we see the vehicle going inside the canal. And what`s so phenomenal about this is that 50 yards either way to the left or the right, we don`t capture that car going into the canal. So great job by our officers. We`re real proud of them.

GRACE: So Chief, when you go -- I didn`t get this pat. When you go ask for the surveillance video, did you have any inkling that there was a car at the bottom of the lake?

FOSTER: We had -- we were -- we were certainly -- had a hunch. But again, the likelihood of being able to be in that right place at the right time where that video actually captures that car going into the lake -- luck was with us that day. And I can`t say enough about the officers that went out there on their own and then look up and actually see that video and putting two and two together. Great job.

GRACE: Well, Chief -- Chief, why was there a video of a lake?

FOSTER: What had happened is they set up video surveillance around the businesses, just to capture...


FOSTER: ... I would imagine, type of break-ins, what have you. And sure enough, that video led to that.

GRACE: So along with Chief Duncan Foster is Sergeant Joe McHugh, also with Coral Springs police. Sergeant, what kind of businesses are around the lake? What is it, like, a corporate office area and they`ve got a decorative lake in the middle or something?

SGT. JOE MCHUGH, CORAL SPRINGS PD: Yes, they do. It`s actually a corporate warehouse district over there, and there`s actually a very huge lake called Crystal Lake there that is actually a great dumping ground for a lot of things. The lake is as deep as 75 feet deep. So you know, our detectives actually came across it and said, Wow, this would be an outstanding place to actually dump a vehicle that could possibly be dumped for a long period of time.

GRACE: And tell me this, if you can, if you can release this. I don`t know if the autopsy`s been made public yet. We know the cause of death. I understand that the mommy was found with a trash bag over the head and trash bag over the feet, that she was beaten several times, to my understanding, around the head and face. Is there a possibility she was also asphyxiated, Chief?

FOSTER: Well, right now, the autopsy is preliminary, but the autopsy did state that she suffered blunt force trauma and from asphyxiation, as well.

GRACE: Hey, Liz, let`s see that video of Daddy begging, crying, Mommy, come home to your children.


TOHA: We love you. (INAUDIBLE) your children miss you. Please come home!

She love her kids very well, very much so. That I do know that fact. She loves her kids. She is a good mother. She is very good mother.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A tragic end to the case of missing mom Surya Toha. Her lifeless body is found inside her car, submerged in a lake. Adding to the horror and mystery, a bag covered her head. Her car was found just hours after her husband, Munawar, stood in front of us making a tearful plea for her safe return.

TOHA: (INAUDIBLE) your children is miss you. Please come home!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Notice how quickly he composed himself. Police tell us he pushed to make that televised plea. All along, detectives were suspicious by his entire performance. In a case that gets more strange with every turn, we have surveillance video showing Surya`s car being pushed into the lake where police found it. Watch carefully. First we see a shadowy figure taking a bike out of the back. That`s what police say he used to pedal away from the scene of the crime. Then we watch as he tries desperately to get the car into the war. Police say that shadowy figure is her husband.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The investigation covered many different aspects and angles. Officer Koenig, Detective Young and myself on Saturday, while off duty, we were thinking about places where the suspect may have put the car. Officer Koenig thought that maybe behind where he works would be a good place, with that big lake. So we went there. We found a hole in the fence. Officer Koenig actually took his own personal boat out, went looking for the car. We were unable to find the car.


GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live tonight. First of all, out of Atlanta, felony prosecutor Eleanor Odom, defense attorney Renee Rockwell and defense attorney Atlanta Peter Odom.

Renee, don`t you just hate it when your client calls, demands, a press conference, and he cries about halfway through it. And then when it`s all -- about 15, 30 seconds into it, he goes, OK, any questions? He totally stops crying, no more sniveling. His nose automatically stops running. That`s an Oscar-winning performance, Renee. How did he do that?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hollywood`s not going to be looking for him. But you`ve got to know...

GRACE: If they are, I know where they can find him.

ROCKWELL: Those police officers were probably happy to give him that interview, blasting all over the news. But Nancy, what they`re going to do is, once he does something like that -- and believe me, you`ll see that video again in a courtroom. Once he does something like that, the police sit back, have their criminologists, have their experts, have their psychiatrists look at that, look at his body language. And absolutely, they weren`t going anywhere else. They were looking right at him. And then they decided to go and see where he dumped the body.

GRACE: Eleanor?

ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Oh, Nancy, this tape will be great in court because so many time, I wish we had an actual video of the crime. You don`t really get that. And here, as a prosecutor, we would just hit the play button.

GRACE: You know, Peter Odom, how many times have I argued to a jury, What more do you want, a video?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, remember, Nancy, you`ve got a video of him...

GRACE: You know, I don`t think it`s really that funny.

PETER ODOM: You`ve got a video...

GRACE: You know, you`re actually the first person I`ve heard that laughed.

PETER ODOM: Of course I`m not laughing...

GRACE: Because she`s leaving behind...

PETER ODOM: I`m not -- I`m not laughing.

GRACE: ... a 6-year-old and a 9-year-old little boy...

PETER ODOM: No, no, no. Nancy, you...

GRACE: ... with Mommy`s head bludgeoned in.

PETER ODOM: You mistook me. I`m not laughing at the tragedy. It`s a horrible tragedy. But remember that we don`t have a video of the crime itself. We have a video of him disposing of the body. One thing that the defense attorney, if he`s -- when he`s eventually...

GRACE: Put Odom up!

PETER ODOM: ... assigned one, is going to look at is...

GRACE: Put him up!

PETER ODOM: ... the circumstances of how the killing actually occurred.

GRACE: So you`re saying we don`t have a video of him bludgeoning her to death.

PETER ODOM: Correct.

GRACE: We only have a video of him pushing the dead body...

PETER ODOM: Correct.

GRACE: ... bound in trash bags, into the lake.

PETER ODOM: Exactly.

GRACE: And your point would be what, Peter?

PETER ODOM: My point is that the police have charged him now with first degree murder. That means that they have to prove his actual mental state, the exact circumstance of the killing, not just disposing of the body.

GRACE: Hey, don`t listen to him.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Toha went missing on the 23rd after taking her kids to school. After that, she basically dropped off the face of the earth. She stopped using her cell phone. She stopped using her credit cards. She stopped -- she was supposed to go to school that day to volunteer. She was -- she never showed up.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`d like to start by sending out my condolences to Surya Toha`s family. This is a tragic, tragic story. It began on March 23, 2010. Ms. Toha was reported missing by her husband, Munawar. For the past two weeks -- approximately two weeks -- we`ve been looking for her. Yesterday, we recovered her vehicle and her remains inside the vehicle. The vehicle were found in a lake behind where Mr. Toha works. The vehicle was recovered from the lake. The investigation continues.


GRACE: Out to the lines. Sue, Illinois. Hi, Sue.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a comment and then two quick questions and...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... I`ll make it very brief. Your twins are absolutely gorgeous. I love your pictures of them. And my questions are, had it been reported or does anyone know if there was trouble in the marriage? And was there money involved?

GRACE: First of all, thank you for what you said about the twins. I hope they grow up to look like their father. Now, as to the marriage, Lauren Granado, anchor, Newsradio 610 WIOD, my first question is, as usual, who`s having an affair? And what about the money?

GRANADO: Nancy, at this point, we can`t really say whether or not someone was having an affair. What we do know is that Munawar mentions this note that was allegedly left by his wife before she disappeared, and it was written in Indonesian and it mentioned that she has to get out of there before she destroys her children`s life because she said she had been raped by someone who claimed to have -- or she says worked with her husband. There`s been some more investigation into that. That man that she alleged of raping her in this note, which we -- I cannot confirm that that note is correct or not -- says he never even met Surya, that he hasn`t actually been in the area for the last 10 years.

GRACE: Right.

GRANADO: So we can`t confirm any sort of infidelity at this point, but the mention of rape has been discussed.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Hunter, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, renowned in his field, joining us out of New York. Dr. Hunter, welcome. Doctor, what can you tell us about determining cause of death? Her body had been submerged in Crystal Lake in a car, inside a trash bag, blows to the head. How can you tell she was also asphyxiated or strangled?

DR. MICHAEL HUNTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes, well, I think when it comes to the blunt force injuries of the scalp and the head, face, you`re going to be able to look at those injuries, not necessarily the skin. There`s going to be decompositional issues. But you want to look at the facial bones, skeletal bones, fine fractures. That`s going to define, I think, probably what you`re dealing with here. Now, as far as...

GRACE: Dr. Hunter, what about the petechiae in the eyes? Can you look at them?

HUNTER: No. And first of all, petechiae is typically with manual strangulation, where you put force around the neck. You don`t see that in smothering, which is kind of suggested here. But you`re talking...



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jon Gosselin may have fired the first shot. New custody battle over their eight kids.

JON GOSSELIN, CELEBRITY: Please, people. Stop interfering in our lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But now wife "Dancing With The Stars" contestant Kate Gosselin firing back.

KATE GOSSELIN, CELEBRITY: My gosh, what am I doing? Is this never going to end?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kate`s attorney Mark Momjian says Jon Gosselin`s suit is incoherent.

K. GOSSELIN: Suddenly you`re a monster mom?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t make sense.

K. GOSSELIN: I am completely and utterly embarrassed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Adding Jon has a history of trying to pull the plug on his wife Kate when she`s doing well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jon wants the attention back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jon wants to be off the F list.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give me the evidence that you have that he`s out at bars in the evening and $90 champagne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants to go back in the spotlight.

K. GOSSELIN: I do feel like it`s unfair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, the working mom Kate Gosselin now has even more on her plate. TLC announcing today Kate will get her own series, "Twist of Kate."

K. GOSSELIN: I can`t let them down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And will also star in "Kate Plus Eight" special.

K. GOSSELIN: There`s nothing that will make me let them down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While Kate gets more work, "Radar Online" reporting Jon Gosselin isn`t happy about living with his brother.

GRACE: So how is it that he is going to take care of all of the children off of his brother`s sofa and wants her to pay him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s the beauty of it.

K. GOSSELIN: This is a really frustrating situation for me.


GRACE: Straight out to Marc Malkin, senior columnist, E! Online, Kate fires back. What`s the plan, Marc?

MARK MALKIN, SENIOR COLUMNIST, E! ONLINE: Basically the lawyer for Kate is saying that whatever Jon has filed, it doesn`t make sense, it doesn`t have his address on it, and also says that he`s appealing to the wrong people, that this should only be about the economics and not the custody.

GRACE: And to you, Alexis Tereszcuk with, when they say incoherent, what are they getting at? What`s the point?

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAR ONLINE: What Kate`s lawyer is saying is that Jon is saying the most ridiculous things ever in this filing. He`s saying that he maybe wants to live back in the guest house which was, you know, part of the original agreement that when he has custody of the children, he can stay in the guest house. That he thinks -- he doesn`t owe Kate any more money, and just saying in all sorts of ways that aren`t really -- you`re the lawyer, but it`s not really written in a correct legal way and asking for things that are ridiculous that are not fair. When he`s asking for full custody of these kids because Kate is the working mom. Well she`s the only one that`s making any money to provide for these kids.

GRACE: What else can you tell me, Clark Goldband?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: There`s an exciting announcement that occurred a few hours ago. Kate Gosselin will now be on two more shows on TLC. She`ll have even more jobs, Nancy. One will be "Kate Plus Eight" a series of specials with the family. Important to note there, Jon not there in the title. Also she`ll have a new reality show on TLC, Nancy, where she`ll be traveling the country and spending time in mom`s shoes.

GRACE: OK last night, Jon Gosselin`s attorney Anthony List came on. He`s a very good attorney out of Philadelphia jurisdiction. And he has written me today. He`s now under a confidentiality clause of a document. He cannot be with us tonight, but this is part of what he had to say last night.


GRACE: He has been out at every bar between his home and Maryland with every girl 30 and under that he could get his hands on. Partying, drinking, blowing money on expensive cars, $90 bottles of champagne. I find it very -- I mean, look. How can you say with a straight face he can`t work when he`s blowing money left and right? One Ed Hardy T-Shirt is what, $200, $300? Come on, give me a break, Mr. List.

ANTHONY LIST, ATTORNEY: Well why don`t you give me a break and give me the evidence you have that he is out in bars in the evening and $90 champagne, and doing all of these treacherous things you talk about.

GRACE: OK, here`s the evidence, Mr. List, you made me do it, all right? I didn`t have to show these. Partying, do the names 22-year-old Hailey Glassman, 26-year-old Kate Major, 24-year-old Stephanie Santoro, 25- year-old Morgan Christie, a Las Vegas party girl. I mean, here are the photos. You said where`s the evidence. Well, here it is.

LIST: I can`t see the photos. What do these photos depict and try to be objective, if you could.


GRACE: Well out to the line, Anne in Georgia. Hi, Anne.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear.

CALLER: Yes, ma`am. I`ve got a couple of quick questions. Number one, while I feel it`s not fair that Kate has all the say-so over the visitation rights, it also was not fair for Jon to take the food out of the children`s mouth by saying they can`t be photographed anymore. So how does he think that he`s going to take care of those eight children with no money? And no job?

GRACE: Well, you know, I asked his lawyer that last night. And he had some theory that the courts had told, or TLC had told Jon Gosselin he couldn`t work. What I think he was trying to say, or I don`t know what his client had been telling him actually is that he had a non-compete clause. Once he ended filming "Jon and Kate Plus Eight," I don`t think he could do any more TV work until the end of that contract. What do you make of it, to Vikki Ziegler, divorce attorney out of New York?

VIKKI ZIEGLER, ATTORNEY: Yes, I think that Jon Gosselin worked before the TV world entered upon him and he can probably work again. Maybe not in the TV world if there is a non-compete clause with TLC. I think it`s ridiculous. I think Kate Gosselin`s team of lawyers are going to come out swinging. They`re going to say that he`s underemployed if he`s not working and philandering with these other women that you just showed pictures of. I think his argument --

GRACE: Now Vikki, don`t get me wrong, I`m a former prosecutor. I`m not the church lady. He can sleep with whoever is willing to hop into bed with him. I don`t care. That`s their business. But what I do care about is him blowing the family assets, the money. A $90 bottle of champagne?

ZIEGLER: Well, that`s --

GRACE: If some waiter were to hand me that menu, I would drop it like it was a hot potato, $90 for one bottle of champagne? And that`s just the tip of the iceberg. That`s money out of those children`s mouth.

ZIEGLER: I agree. He`s absolutely being frivolous. But I think the point really is if you`re going to be with other women for weeks and weeks and not see your children, how do you think you can substantiate being the parent of primary residence? The argument doesn`t work. That`s the problem.

GRACE: And Vikki, what was the lawyer trying to say last night? And I`m not saying it`s Anthony List`s fault because as I said, he`s got a pretty good reputation. But see he`s going off of what Gosselin is telling him, Jon Gosselin is telling him. Suggesting that Kate Gosselin has all the say-so about when and if he can see the children? I don`t believe that.

ZIEGLER: I think it`s ludicrous. It`s very unique in cases like this. Usually you don`t give one parent all the say regardless if they have physical custody and the other parent has parenting rights. So it is very, very strange. I would loved to have seen the arbitration transcript to see really what happened in this case. Bizarre. So I think the only leg Jon Gosselin may have to stand on is if, in fact, that is the case, that Kate is dictating parenting, maybe there may be an amendment or a specific schedule where he sees the children consistently. After, that`s it. Nothing is going on.

GRACE: To Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author of "Love Prescription." Speaking of love prescription, I`m not even going to ask you what went wrong. But now with all of their children at stake, and I`m not blaming Kate Gosselin for being away from home to work. I found out last night, she comes back to her home and practices all those dance moves, which is -- it`s like being in boot camp, in her basement.


GRACE: In the basement of her home. She`s not there in the studio with all the other contestants training. She comes back home to work and flies back to the show. It`s grueling. So I`m not faulting her for working or having to travel to work. But it`s just so wrong to drag this through the public. Why can`t they work it out?

GARDERE: Well because when you`re going through a divorce or being been through a divorce, there`s something called temporary relationship insanity disorder where people just are not in their right minds.

GRACE: Put him up. Are you kidding me? Did you just make that up?

GARDERE: No, no, no, it`s in one of my books.

GRACE: But did you make it up and put it in your book?

GARDERE: No, I actually researched it, and it`s real.

GRACE: What`s the name?

GARDERE: It`s temporary relationship insanity disorder. In other words, people are thinking just with their hearts instead of their minds and they misperceive and look at situations in a way that`s just not rational. In Jon Gosselin`s mind, he really believes that Kate is not being a good mother. And here is this woman who has to feed eight children. She goes on "Dancing with the Stars," making $200,000 for that show. Guess where the money goes? To the kids. And she`s built a studio. Nancy, you`re right. She built a studio in her home so she could spend as much time practicing in her home and then flies out and then does the show. To me, that`s a concerned mom and she stated I want to take care of my children whatever I need to do.

GRACE: We`re going to break, but we`re taking your calls live. Happy birthday to Alabama friend Glen. Daughters Kimberly, Sara, Carrie, Melanie and stepson Ashton and grandson Gavin all celebrating his birthday today. Happy birthday, Glen.



K. GOSSELIN: I have eight kids to raise. Essentially, you know, by myself.

GRACE: She`s got the job.

K. GOSSELIN: There are so many moms across America working as hard as you and I do.

GRACE: He doesn`t.

K. GOSSELIN: Wow. This is so challenging.

GRACE: So now he wants her to support him with child support.

K. GOSSELIN: I mean, I`m just shocked by the challenges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He doesn`t have a job because he`s bound by an agreement that was presented to him by TLC inhibiting him from engaging in any gainful employment.

GRACE: I find it very hard to believe that he`s under a contract where he cannot work at all.

K. GOSSELIN: I know what I have to do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s making a ton of money.

K. GOSSELIN: There`s nothing that will make me let them down.


K. GOSSELIN: I`m going to nail this.

J. GOSSELIN: I`ve got to work, I`ve got to provide. I`ve got to take care of my kids. And so does Kate. We`re all providing for one thing, for our kids. We`re not providing for ourselves because we have eight kids. When you divide up the money, there`s not much left.


GRACE: Straight out to Paul Penzone, director of prevention programs, joining us from Phoenix. Paul, how difficult would be to show or to discover where Jon Gosselin has actually been looking for a job?

PAUL PENZONE, CHILDHELP.ORG: I don`t think it`s difficult at all. You`ve got to want somebody who has the skill set, whether it be a private investigation or other professional to track down and see exactly what he`s doing. The burden really is on him to show if he`s pursuing employment. And as a single father, if it means making pancakes in the morning, burgers in the afternoon and tacos at night, you do what it takes so you can care for your children and be there for them with love. It`s not the other way around. They shouldn`t bring the value of your job to you.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Lisa, Iowa, hi, Lisa.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: Isn`t Jon and Kate divorced? Because I heard on "Showbiz Tonight" or one of the shows that come on after you said something about him going after for, like, spousal support. He can`t -- can he get spousal support after they`re divorced?

GRACE: OK Lisa in Iowa, they are divorced. He is not seeking spousal support. That`s another word for alimony. He is seeking child support. I don`t believe he had ever asked her in this go-around anyway, for alimony. You`re seeing video from ABC`s "Dancing with the Stars."

To Vicki in Kentucky, hi, Vicki.

CALLER: Hi, I want to say, I love your kids, and I love your show. And my mom, she is your biggest fan. If I didn`t say that, she was going to kill me. I would just like to say what kind of judge would let him have these children when he`s sleeping on a couch himself? He doesn`t even have a roof over his own head. Where`s he going to put the kids at, on the floor?

GRACE: You know what Vicki in Kentucky, whatever you`re doing for a living, you need to stop. You need to go get you a black robe and get up behind a bench because truer words were never spoken. What about it, Eleanor?

E. ODOM: She said something very interesting and that is the judge is always going to look out for the best interest of the children. So the judge will see what`s best for the kids and place them there. Right now, Kate is the best parent for those children.

GRACE: Rockwell?

ROCKWELL: I disagree with both of you, Nancy because let me tell you something. That`s Peter. Nancy, he doesn`t need to be looking for a job. He needs to be looking for a house, because if he can get custody of those children --

GRACE: He is looking for a house.

ROCKWELL: Then he`s going to get child support.

GRACE: He is looking for a house.

ROCKWELL: OK, but is she --

GRACE: I don`t know how he`s going to have to pay for it because he`s going to have to actually get a j-o-b, job.

ROCKWELL: Somebody fronts him the house. He gets the kids. If she`s flying all over, she has no time for the children. And she`s going to end up leaving the children with a bunch of nannies. Let me tell you something, he`s still in the running for getting those kids.

GRACE: You know, Renee, I`m going to play this back for you in six months. Odom, what about it?

P. ODOM: He didn`t file this petition because he wants the children. He filed this petition so he has bargaining power in lowering his child support. Plain and simple. This man is not capable of taking care of eight kids. He doesn`t want to. No judge is going to let him. He just wants bargaining power, period.

GRACE: OK god in heaven help me, but Peter Odom, I think you`re right. Out to the lines, Risa in Florida, hi, dear.

CALLER: Hi, how are you, Nancy? I love you, love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: Renee and the other defense attorney are making me crazy. Why is everybody hating on Kate? What she is doing is making money to feed her kids. Jon was a deadbeat dad when it was "Jon and Kate Plus Eight." I watched that show for a whole year. He was a deadbeat dad then. Why is he going to be any different now?

GRACE: Renee?

ROCKWELL: It comes to me, Nancy, it always changes, Nancy. Every day is a new story. And if he, as long as he`s not abusing his children --

GRACE: That doesn`t even make any sense, every day is a new story.

ROCKWELL: What I`m saying to you is nothing is chiseled in stone, Nancy. You know the situation like this -- so if he gets the house, he`s got a job. He can be a good father to those children. And she would have to pay him.

GRACE: Ow, ow, you`re still talking. Renee, you keep going on and on about a house. He doesn`t have money to buy a house. He doesn`t have job and he`s sleeping on his brother`s sofa. He`s not getting the children.

OK, we`re taking your calls live. I think Peter Odom hit the nail on the head. This is all about bargaining power and getting payments lowered or somehow getting money out of his ex-wife.

Let`s stop and remember, Bill "Tigerman" Allen, 68. He passed away at Louisiana war veteran home Jackson. An army vet, Vietnam helicopter pilot, a military -- a member of the military order of the Purple Heart out of Louisiana. He always had these words of advice. Look them in the eye when you speak, always remember to respect your elders. Don`t lie, cheat or steal, protect god, family and country, and be proud to be an American. Tonight, we remember Bill "Tigerman" Allen. He leaves behind his wife Mary, three sisters, children Rob and Shane, four grandchildren, one great grandchild. Bill "Tigerman" Allen, war hero, good night, friend.


JOY BEHAR, CNN HOST: Tonight on "The Joy Behar Show," the masters tournament started today which means for the first time since Thanksgiving, Tiger Woods will be swinging a club instead of dodging one.

Then what can you say about Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann that hadn`t already been said about Leopold and Loeb?

And the legendary Carol Burnett will be here. I better make room for all her Emmys. That and more in just a bit.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s sort of claiming that because Kate is training for the show, competing in the show that she can`t be there for her kids.

TONY DOVOLANI, DANCER: Such great energy with the kids.

K. GOSSELIN: I`m a mom.

DOVOLANI: Such great energy when she shows up for dancing.

K. GOSSELIN: I`m a mom, you know, dressed in up in all of these crazy costumes and with the opportunity a lot of moms would enjoy having and so I want to make them proud.

DOVOLANI: The one thing that I told her that she has over everybody else, the passion of a mom.

K. GOSSELIN: Most of all, I want to make my kids proud. They`re really happy staying up on Monday nights really late to watch me dance.


GRACE: To Marc Malkin, senior columnist E! Online, you heard what attorney Rockwell had to say, that she`s not around to take care of her kids. What`s the bottom line on how much she is gone?

MALKIN: The bottom line is she`s not gone that much. She really just flies to L.A., competes on the show. The next day they have the elimination show and then she`s back to the East Coast. She is not missing that much time with her kids. It`s like any parent who has to work overtime every once in a while.

GRACE: Luann in Pennsylvania, what`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Hi Nancy, thanks for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling.

CALLER: I`m a mother of twins also. Mine are 22.

GRACE: I`m open for parenting advice.

CALLER: Oh, it`s fun. It`s fun. I`m curious. I don`t think really either one of them are fit. The children got their million-dollar home. I`d like to hear what a child psychologist has to say about these children being followed around with cameras.

GRACE: Good question. Jeff Gardere, you`re the shrink.

GARDERE: I think that these kids now are used to the cameras. They`re part of their lives. Certainly they`re not like other kids in that those kids don`t have that kind of thing going on with them all the time. But these kids are getting used to it, have gotten used to it. It`s part of their lives now.

GRACE: Alexis Tereszcuk,, isn`t it true that when Jon Gosselin filed the first seize and desist order demanding that filming stop with TLC on "Jon & Kate Plus Eight," the children reportedly broke down and cried because the camera crew had become like family to them.

TERESZCUK: Absolutely. These camera people are living with them almost 24 hours a day. The thing is that the kids are afforded these wonderful opportunities on the show. They get to go on vacations that a normal family with this many kids and a regular job really might not be able to afford. So they love what they get to do. They have fun with it. They ham it up for the cameras. And you know what, if they really are unhappy, there are no rules. They`re allowed to step away and not be on camera. They`re never forced to do this. And they`re really just having a good time. Who wouldn`t want to ham it up all the time in front of the camera? Kids love getting their picture taken.

GRACE: I guess we`re not going to know how it`s affected them until years from now.

Everybody let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Nathan Barnes, 23, American Fort Utah, killed in Iraq. Awarded the bronze star, purple heart, Army achievement medal, National Defense Service medal. Remembered by fellow soldiers for his sense of humor and wit on the airways while serving as company radio man.

Loved running, rock climbing, snowboarding, camping, reading, writing poetry, taking care of Iraqi children. Dreamed of pursuing an education in medicine. Leaves behind parents, Kevin and Donna, four brothers, one sister. Nathan Barnes, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Georgia and South Carolina friends, Denise and Adrian. One a superstar at CNN Espanol, the other, a shrink. Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.