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Nancy Grace
Web Site Releases Third Mel Gibson Phone Call
Aired July 13, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Good evening. Breaking news tonight. We have more newly released shocking audiotapes allegedly of Hollywood megastar, actor, director Mel Gibson. The profanity-laced, sexist, racist meltdown obtained by Radaronline allegedly reveals Gibson`s repeated verbal abuse and death threats against his Russian singer girlfriend, mother of their 8-month-old baby girl.
Gibson slapped with an emergency restraining order after claims he attacks Oksana Grigorieva, leaving her with two black eyes, a concussion and even knocking out teeth. Gibson ranting, raving, actually losing his breath as he threatens to murder Grigorieva and put her in the grave, and it`s all on tape.
And that`s just the tip of the iceberg, just moments ago, Radaronline releasing a third audiotape as reports surface LA County sheriffs set to meet with Gibson`s lawyers. But why -- why -- haven`t they questioned Gibson yet or arrested him?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t blame you for anything!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And my soul is screaming because you don`t have one to join mine!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just waiting and sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have no (EXPLETIVE DELETED) soul! You can`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! I left my wife because we had no spiritual common ground. You and I have none! Zero! You won`t even (EXPLETIVE DELETED) try! You don`t care! You don`t care!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You just enjoy insulting me, that`s all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you! I so (EXPLETIVE DELETED) do because you hurt me so bad!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t do anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You insult me with every (EXPLETIVE DELETED) look, every breath.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did not do anything, and I apologize for nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every (EXPLETIVE DELETED) heartbeat. You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) selfish...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did not do anything, and I apologize for nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What? What! You apologize for nothing? Well, you`re a dishonest (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because you need to apologize for a reason!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted peace. I wanted to have peace.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... because you`re unbalanced!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... keep peace because you`re not good enough for me, and instinctively I feel that!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re unbalanced.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I will not be patronized by you and your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dishonesty and apologizing...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re unbalanced. You need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You apologize because you know you`re wrong!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s all I`ll accept. And if you will not (EXPLETIVE DELETED) admit that, get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out! Then I will make your goddamn life miserable, all right?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight. We have more newly released shocking audiotapes allegedly of Hollywood megastar actor, director, Mel Gibson.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need a woman, not a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) little girl with a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dysfunctional (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! I need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) woman! I don`t need medication!
You need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) bat in the side of the head, all right? How about that? You need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) doctor! You need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) brain transplant! You need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) -- you need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) soul! I need medication? I need someone who (EXPLETIVE DELETED) treats me like a man, like a human being, with kindness, who understands what gratitude is because I (EXPLETIVE DELETED) bend over backwards with my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in a knot to do it all for her, and she gives me (EXPLETIVE DELETED) like a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sour look which says I`m mean!
The (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is that? This is mean! Get it? You get it now, what mean is? Get it?
You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) don`t care about me. I`m having a hard time, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) yanked the rug, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) selfless (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Don`t you dare hang up on me!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t listen to this anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you hang up, I`m coming over there!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll call the police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll call the police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! I`m coming to my house. You`re in my house, honey!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I will fire her!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She only works at my house!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, she`s -- there`s nothing to do at your house. The baby`s here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The baby should be here, and she should work at my house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The baby is where I am. You are insane.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will not be there for long. I will fire (DELETED) if she is at your house. I will make it known and fire her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll report her to the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) people that take (EXPLETIVE DELETED) money from the (EXPLETIVE DELETED), OK?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LALAMA: Well, that is new audio obtained by Radaronline allegedly showing Mel Gibson`s verbal abuse and threats against girlfriend Oksana Grigorieva. To hear more, go to Radaronline.com.
But we have with us reporter from Radaronline.com Alexis Tereszcuk. How are you this evening? More fuel to the legal fire, huh?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: Absolutely. I`m well, thank you. This is another tape that we have of Mel absolutely abusing Oksana. He is fighting with her about the woman who is taking care of their 8-month-old daughter, threatening to report her to people because -- and then he throws another racist slur at her. It`s just a continuation of Mel`s just violent rage. He threatens Oksana. He calls her every name in the book. He threatens to bury her in the rose garden, which we`ve spoken about, and he says that she needs an F-ing bat in the head. This is horrific from him.
LALAMA: It`s pretty rough. Carlos Diaz, syndicated radio host and journalist, he got yet another ethnic group this time. I`m starting to feel left out. He hasn`t ranted on the Italians yet, but maybe that`s to come.
CARLOS DIAZ, SYNDICATED RADIO HOST AND JOURNALIST: Yes, you know, and it`s ironic, too. I mean, you know, he has something that`s totally anti- Semitic, you know, back in 2006, where he`s saying that the Jews are the reason that -- that -- you know, for all of the wars in the world. And Jewish people all over the world are offended by that. And then, of course, the N-word is uttered by this person on this tape alleged to be, you know, Mel Gibson. And African-Americans, you know, are up in arms.
And of course now, I mean, what group is he not going offend? And I find it ironic, too, that, you know, we keep saying the N-word as that phrase, and people -- you know, it`s almost like we should say the W-word because, you know, that is a very offensive thing to say to people of Hispanic origin. And I`ve been called that name several times, and it`s not the most pleasant thing to hear in the world. And the fact that he says the W-word with such ease, and the N-word with such ease, kind of tells you it`s not the first time he`s said these things.
LALAMA: Yes, probably not. Alexis, back to you for a moment. Now, we do have some other new news today, and that`s just the status of the criminal investigation. Where do we stand with that right now?
TERESZCUK: Well, actually, Radaronline.com learned exclusively that the district attorney`s planning -- the investigators are planning to meet with Mel Gibson`s lawyers next week. They want to really move this case along quickly. They hope to have something to present to the DA by the end of the month, and the lawyers can`t meet until next week. So they`re going to be meeting with Mel`s lawyers. They really want to get to the bottom of this, the investigators do, and they want to present something to the DA for prosecution.
LALAMA: All right. And something else brand-new. Carlos, back to you for a moment. At one point, these two signed what appears to be a $20 million agreement. Can you give me a little bit of background on that? And where in the timeline did that fit in?
DIAZ: Well, there was a cohabitation agreement, and then there`s this new report today about a $20 million agreement, which was signed in principle but was not carried out because Oksana apparently did not want Mel to have visitation as much as he was going to get of their daughter, Lucia. They have an 8-month-old together.
And apparently, what is being reported is that it was 80/20 in the beginning, where she would have 80 percent visitation, he would have 20. But it eventually would become 50/50. And she didn`t want Mel around their daughter that much because, as she puts it in this tape, she thinks he`s insane. And that`s something that can be pointed to the fact that maybe Oksana isn`t, you know, the money-grubbing person that Mel claims her to be.
LALAMA: But what I`m not getting here is if she signed this deal in principle sometime in May, what went wrong? I think everybody needs to know if at one point -- and even some of the lawyers associated were saying, Hey, it was a nice, smooth split, you go your way, I`ll go mine, I`ll take care of you, you know, probably some sort of a non-disclosure deal, Don`t talk about me, et cetera, et cetera. But what went wrong? What made things blow up at some point?
DIAZ: And that`s what we`re going to find out, you know, at the court proceedings that are going to happen on July 20th. And you know, you -- the big blowup apparently happened on Father`s Day, where, you know, Mel wanted to see their daughter on Father`s Day. Reportedly, Oksana would not let Mel see the daughter on Father`s Day, and that`s when things started to unravel. And then she filed the police report about the alleged incident that happened on January 6th on July 5th, and these tapes have now become public.
LALAMA: All right, Paul Penzone, VP of prevention programs, Childhelp.org, and a former sergeant with Phoenix PD. Maybe I`m wrong, but if I threaten to kill the person in my life and there are these kinds of tapes, I don`t get to say to the department, Oh, well, talk to my lawyers. Doesn`t that sound a little strange to you?
PAUL PENZONE, CHILDHELP.ORG: Yes and no. I think what`s going on here, you know, as a former law enforcement officer, they need to make sure they can establish all the facts in this case and the evidence. So they`re premature in arresting him or even worse (ph), if they`re premature in interviewing him without knowing all the evidence, they might miss on something that`s critical to prosecution.
If they were still living together, I think you`d see a higher sense of urgency. And although he -- you know, it`s obvious that he can still be very dangerous, especially when he`s in that state of emotion and distress, because they`re not living together, I think that the law enforcement agency there, the sheriff`s office, has some time to make sure they`re doing the investigation correctly.
LALAMA: Robin Sax, you`re a former prosecutor and author of "Predators and Child Molesters." Does that sound right to you? I mean, a lot of people, when they hear this kind of thing, they react emotionally and they want justice right now. Doesn`t necessarily work that way.
ROBIN SAX, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, the wheels of justice don`t spin as quickly as they used to, especially here in Los Angeles County, where the system is incredibly backed up. And what we`re talking about here is a crime that may be a felony but also could amount to a misdemeanor. And there isn`t the same urgency when the crime is a misdemeanor.
And what seems to be happening is time is seeming to be advantageous to both parties in some ways, from the prosecution and police angle, to be able to collect more evidence, and from the defense angle, to help figure out your story and get your story straight by the time that interview comes. So it`s kind of equally helping and equally hurting both sides.
LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, people are outraged when they hear this -- this kind of rave, and it is disconcerting. You know, what does it signal to you? Yes, he`s mad, but take us beyond that.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, this is over the top mad, Pat. He has a history of alcoholism. In one report, he allegedly said that he started drinking when he was 13. So figure 40-plus years of drinking. That can add to dementia and disinhibition. So we`re seeing this primitive, raw and viciousness that he`s having a very hard time controlling. Is he mentally ill? No. I think he`s a severe alcoholic.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t blame you for anything!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And my soul is screaming because you don`t have one to join mine!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just waiting and sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have no (EXPLETIVE DELETED) soul! You can`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! I left my wife because we had no spiritual common ground. You and I have none! Zero! You won`t even (EXPLETIVE DELETED) try! You don`t care! You don`t care!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have no (EXPLETIVE DELETED) soul! You can`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mel Gibson in trouble again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I left my wife because we had no spiritual common ground. You and I have none! Zero!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s being investigated for a possible domestic violence incident involving his ex-girlfriend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You won`t even (EXPLETIVE DELETED) try!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is explosive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... reportedly of Mel Gibson...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t care! You don`t care!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... leaving her bloodied, bruised, knocking out two of her front teeth, all while holding their 8-month-old daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... yelling obscenities, laced with profane language...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t do anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You insult me with every (EXPLETIVE DELETED) look, every breath.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did not do anything, and I apologize for nothing.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: It is so disgusting. I finally quit counting how many F-bombs and C-bombs he dropped on this one phone call alone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need a woman, not a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) little girl with a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dysfunctional (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! I need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) woman! I don`t need medication!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Pat Lama in for Nancy Grace. OK, you heard it, more explosive slurs, including racial slurs. We`ve got news of a $20 million amicable settlement that was at least in the works at some point before all of this blew up. And we`ve got a criminal investigation that`s moving forward.
And I want to ask Joe Lawless, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutor Misconduct" -- this is really serious. Verbal threats alone, I know in the state of California, are taken very, very seriously. This is a three strike state. And if you look at even one of those threats, it could be a felony and could be a strike potentially, am I not right?
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It very well could be, Pat, but there`s two problems with this. California is a two-party consent state to a recording, which means if only one of them records it without the other`s consent, there`s a strong possibility none of these tapes get in, which is why I believe they`re being leaked by either her lawyers or the police.
But more importantly, and I think if -- if Mel`s lawyer is doing the right thing, this is what he`s going to do. Pat Saunders nailed it. This is an alcoholic rage. You listen to the speech pattern, the heavy breathing, the hyperbole. If he wants to help his client before any of this really hits the fan even worse, he`s going to sit down with him and get him back into recovery because if he doesn`t, this is only going to steamroll for him. I think that`s why the police are taking the time.
LALAMA: Very interesting. And Peter Schaeffer (ph), defense attorney, though, on the two-party issue, is it not right, though, if a person feels that their life is in danger, they may have the right to skirt that law and go ahead and record surreptitiously?
PETER SCHAEFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, if a person thinks their life`s in danger, what you do and what they teach in kindergarten to do is to pick up the phone and call 911. This person -- Oksana reports this incident a half a year later. So how can she claim that her life -- she believes her life`s in danger?
LALAMA: Well, Dr. Titus Duncan, general surgery, Atlanta Medical Center, a lot of time has passed, but nonetheless, there`s no statute of limitations. It doesn`t matter if time has passed. If she`s got the evidence, he could be in trouble, correct?
DR. TITUS DUNCAN, ATLANTA MEDICAL CENTER: I mean, he could be. And basically, what happens is that if, indeed, he has threatened her and if he`s going to where she`s -- he`s knocking out her teeth and all, you know, the dentist can actually testify that something has happened. But whether Mel Gibson knocked out her teeth or whether something else happened is going to be a little slippery slope for both the dentist and anybody else in the medical field examining her and actually discerning what really, really happened. Now, all the things that are going on...
LALAMA: Let -- let...
DUNCAN: Go ahead.
LALAMA: I`m sorry, sir. I just wanted to ask you, though, very quickly -- you know, there are allegations that -- well, not allegations, but there`s talk that he should have gone to authorities because of his requirement, being a health care professional. But apparently, his claim is, Well, she didn`t want me to and I felt that that trumped what his requirement was to report. Do you agree with that?
DUNCAN: Yes. And that`s the slippery slope. Once a patient asks me not to disclose their personal information, I`m bound by that patient`s rights. Once I get out there...
LALAMA: Really?
DUNCAN: Yes. I`m bound by that patient`s rights. If I feel that a patient has been harmed by somebody else, I can actually tell, if she wants me to, somebody that that patient has been harmed. How she has been harmed or who she`s been harmed by, I have no earthly idea unless she said so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I will fire her!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She only works at my house!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, she`s -- there`s nothing to do at your house. The baby`s here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The baby should be here, and she should work at my house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... Mel Gibson`s alleged attack against Oksana Grigorieva.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got what you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deserved!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody bothered to explain to me in a reasonable manner...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wrote it down (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You just enjoy insulting me, that`s all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you! I so (EXPLETIVE DELETED) do because you hurt me so bad!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a new audio recording said to capture a very angry Mel Gibson...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What? What? You apologize for nothing? Well, then, you`re a dishonest (EXPLETIVE DELETED!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mel Gibson and his former girlfriend, Oksana Grigorieva, have a date in court.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s (ph) very difficult. It`s (ph) pretty much impossible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she filed a restraining order against him alleging he struck her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) bat in the side of the head!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are investigating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: More inflamed audiotapes, and Mel Gibson, of course, under criminal investigation. Alexis Tereszcuk, reporter, Radaronline.com, are the sheriffs saying anything?
TERESZCUK: They really haven`t spoken at all. They`re saying that the investigation is ongoing, and as soon as they have some information, they`ll talk to us. We have sources who have said that they are going to be speaking with Mel Gibson next week. These are really serious charges. This is very concrete evidence that we`ve been told that they -- you know, that she has these tapes. And it`s something that they`re very seriously looking into. It`s not just a one-time incident. It`s a longer investigation. They want to make sure that they cross all their Ts and dot all their I`s.
LALAMA: Yes, they don`t want to mess this up. Our callers have been so patient. I thank them for that. Rhonda in Florida. What`s your question, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for taking my call, Pat. I want...
LALAMA: I think we lost Rhonda. We did. I`m sorry about that. Let`s go to Lynn in Pennsylvania. Lynn?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
LALAMA: Your question, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Pat. This is Lynn. And I thank you so much for taking my call this evening. My question is, you know, all these verbally abusive names that he`s calling Oksana, the fake big breasts, the dressing provocatively, that she`s a whore, don`t you think that these are the things that attracted him to her (INAUDIBLE) Like, why (INAUDIBLE) no good?
LALAMA: Yes. Well, I guess, Patricia Saunders, when we`re mad, then all of a sudden, we pretend like, I never liked the slut anyway, right? Go ahead.
SAUNDERS: Right. Right. Things become all bad. And there is an element of his projecting his own feelings for her, trying to get rid of it. But he sounds like he`s hysterical. It is an alcoholic rage. But this is the guy equivalent of hysteria.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A new nasty recording allegedly of the Oscar winner and his ex-girlfriend...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you hang up, I`m coming over there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll call the police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll call the police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! I`m coming to my house! You`re in my house, honey!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did not do anything and I apologize for nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What? What? You apologize for nothing? Well, you`re dishonest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mel Gibson lost his mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s being investigated for a possible domestic violence incident.
(CROSS TALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I will not be patronized by you and your (EXPLETIVE DELTED) dishonesty and apologizing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caught on tape admitting he hit the mother of his love child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knocking out two of her front teeth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need a woman! Not a little girl with a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dysfunctional (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I need a [EXPLETIVE DELETED) woman! I don`t need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He relates to women on the basis of power and control and not affection.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has a streak not only of meanness, but of violating women, of threatening women.
(INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s all I`ll accept and I will not (EXPLETIVE DELETED) admit that. Get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out. Then I`ll make your goddamn life miserable. Alright?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Carlos Diaz, syndicated radio host and journalist, explain something to me. Oksana goes and gets a restraining order in June, correct? And then the next day, they`re back -- she gets it. But then they`re back in court and Gibson gets the judge to agree to let him have visitation. I just don`t get that. If she`s in fear of her life, wouldn`t she also be in fear for her child?
CARLOS DIAZ, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Right. But Mel convinced the judge at the time that he was not a threat to the child at the time. And then he filed a restraining order around the same time, so that these tapes would not get out. It`s kind of like combative restraining orders. She doesn`t want any part of him and he doesn`t want any part of these tapes getting out.
So it is -- it`s funny, because we were talking about this off air. The Anna Nicole Smith trial was boom, boom, boom. This happened over such a long period of time, from January 6th, and then in June there`s restraining orders being filed. And then July 5th, she goes in and files the police report. So there are a lot of dates here.
And then, of course, the next big date is July 20th, one week from today, because Oksana and Mel Gibson will be in court together. The same day, ironically, Lindsay Lohan will be going into the slammer.
LALAMA: Great, the poor PR -- Public Information Office in downtown Los Angeles. Carlos, I don`t think either of them have to be there, correct? I know Oksana plans to be there. What about Gibson?
DIAZ: Yeah, that`s the thing. But there were reports today that he may be there, that he may be showing up. So she will be there, but we`re still receiving word on whether he will be there or not. You have to ask yourself if his lawyers are meeting with authorities next week, well, then do they want him at this court hearing in front of all of the media as well?
LALAMA: What you`re looking at is Oksana Grigorieva`s music video from Youtube, which apparently Gibson helped finance. I think I got that right.
All right. I want to go to Paul Penzone, who is VP of prevention programs, ChildHelp.org, and former sergeant of the Phoenix PD. In terms of a criminal investigation, those tapes are going to be key, and whether they`re going to be allowed if such a case does come about -- those tapes could have been edited. There`s a lot of, I think, legalities here. Do you not see that?
PENZONE: Absolutely, they are key to the case. Without those tapes, you really have he said/she said. But with today`s technology, I think it`s really unlikely that any altered tape would slide through the cracks once they actually process and evaluate those. The courts do recognize, as with many wire taps, that voice recognition by experts can, in fact, define if a particular pick person is the one making those calls.
They can absolutely identify Mel as the person on the line, which is critical.
LALAMA: Robin Sax, former prosecutor, do you see any problems with these tapes? Do you see them as a slam dunk in the courtroom, if this should get to a trial?
SAX: I certainly don`t see the tapes being a slam dunk in terms of admissibility. I disagree that they have this -- that they are the final key into this case. They are simply the corroboration. The key to this case are her statements, Oksana`s statements, the dental records that exist, that show them -- the mirrors have lopped off -- left off -- prior statements, other forms of abuse. This is just a piece of the puzzle that would corroborate her version of the events, and show that she`s being credible.
In addition, Mel Gibson, who has called her every name in the book, not one time calls her a liar, not one time denies what she`s saying. So to call her a liar at some other point is somewhat outrageous. And they are not even denying the authenticity of the tapes now.
LALAMA: Joe Lawless, you know, what his camp is going to do is try to prove -- they claim they have a long paper trail to prove extortion. But nonetheless, here`s the important thing: whether he was set up, whether she had nefarious interests at heart, it doesn`t matter. The fact is, if he says something like you deserved it, that can`t be good for him, correct?
LAWLESS: Well, it can`t be good, Pat. But the bottom line here is the tapes are not going to be admissible, which is why they`re being leaked by the police or her lawyer to try to pollute the jury panel. The key is going to be the other forensic evidence. The tapes are just not admissible. That`s the only reason we are seeing them on TMZ and Radar Online.
Where are they coming from? One of two places: the cops or the lawyer on the other side. That`s because they`re never going to get into any criminal proceeding. It`s not what the public thinks, it`s what the evidence is going to be. And she`s right. It is not a slam dunk in terms of admissibility. I just don`t think they`re going to get in.
LALAMA: Peter Schaffer, do you think these tapes are going to get in, if there`s a case? We don`t even know that this is going to be a case at this point.
SCHAFFER: Exactly. I think there`s problems with the violation of the consent rule. I think the way they`re leaked like a serial radio show, every couple of days to grab interest, shows that -- what sort of motive is here. The real evidence, if there were to be a case -- I`m not so sure there will be one -- would be the credibility of Oksana. And you have to look into her motivation, which involves millions of potential dollars in a settlement, and you have to look at the immediateness or the lack of immediateness in her outcry. As I said before, six months is not immediate outcry.
LALAMA: But Robin Sax, former prosecutor, if he doesn`t deny it and when she makes that comment -- you know, look at what you did to us, something to that effect. He says "you f-ing deserved it, I think is what he says -- isn`t that powerful? He doesn`t say what are you talking about? I didn`t do that.
SAX: That`s exactly right. It`s what we call a tacit admission in the court of law. In addition, whether or not the tapes come in in the case, the existence of those tapes will lock Mel Gibson into a defense. He can`t say I was just joking, because then, all of a sudden, an inadmissible tape may become admissible as impeachment to show that Mel Gibson is a liar.
So he`s going to have to craft his defense around those tapes, whether they make their way into a courtroom or not.
LALAMA: Dr. Tylus Duncan (ph), with all due respect to dentists and dentistry, if she had concussions and black eyes -- apparently there are photographs, et cetera. But wouldn`t you march down the street to get a medical -- a full medical exam, to add further fuel to your legal case against this man?
DUNCAN: I think you should. I think that that would actually strengthen her case. But the fact of the matter is that she didn`t do that. I don`t know why exactly she didn`t do that. But you need that kind of evidence. You need that kind of examination by a medical professional, to say that that patient suffered some sort of physical damage.
Again, the crux of the situation is how did the damage come about? Was it Mel Gibson? Did she fall? Did something else,, another boyfriend, actually do it? That`s where the doctor`s obligation ends. The doctor can verify that she has physical damage to her face; she has physical damage to her teeth. But how she got that is pure speculation.
LALAMA: What you`re looking at is a photo of Oksana Grigorieva`s dentist, Dr. Ross Sheldon, from SheldonDDS.com. What about, Joe Lawless, Mel Gibson`s attempt to prove that she extorted him? I mean, it`s a whole separate case. It doesn`t disprove that he was violent. But can that take some of the wind out of her sails from a PR standpoint?
LAWLESS: There`s two different things, Pat. We`re talking PR or legal proceedings. From a PR standpoint, obviously, it`s being floated out there. We wouldn`t hear it. From a legal stand point, I don`t think it has any applicability to this case. How do you say, well, you extorted me; you set me up to get on the phone and call and make these threats.
Again, the tapes aren`t going to get in. I think defense is going to focus on the credibility of Oksana, the promptness or lack thereof of the complaint. I don`t think Mel Gibson will ever get anywhere near a witness stand, if he`s smart.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a (EXPLETIVE DLEETED -- you need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) soul. I need medication. I need someone who treats me like a man, like a human being, with kindness, who understands what gratitude is, because I bend over backwards with my (EXPLETIVE DELTED) in a knot to do it all for her, and she give me (EXPLETIVE DELETED) like a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sour look or says I`m mean.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was an extremely likable actor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Domestic violence accusations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had a reputation as a good family man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has the dental records after she went to the dentist, when her teeth got knocked out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is going to be like another a slap at his reputation again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a (EXPLETIVE DLEETED -- you need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) soul. I need medication. I need someone who treats me like a man, like a human being, with kindness, who understands what gratitude is, because I bend over backwards with my (EXPLETIVE DELTED) in a knot to do it all for her, and she give me (EXPLETIVE DELETED) like a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sour look or says I`m mean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New disturbing audio.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anger management problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will not be patronized by you and you`re (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dishonesty and apologizing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know you`re wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s all I`ll accept.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a jaw dropper.
GIBSON: Next question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I find him repulsive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think people are going to think, uh ho, he fell off the wagon again and he got carried away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t blame you for anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- screaming because you don`t have one to join mine.
You know no (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Soul. You can`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I left my wife because we had no spiritual common ground. You and I have none. Zero. you won`t even try. You don`t care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Peter Schaffer, defense attorney, I want to get back to the issue of extortion, which Mel Gibson`s camp may try to prove. You give us the quick tutorial on what does extortion exactly mean?
SCHAFFER: Extortion means that someone, in this case Oksana, is trying to get money and in return, if the person doesn`t give her money, she`s going to reveal something, make something up. So it`s more commonly referred to as blackmail. You know, there is some evidence of that in this case. I will tell you what, if you -- if they increase the offer to 40 million dollars for this custody battle, I think this case will disappear.
LALAMA: Interesting. Paul Penzone, former sergeant from Phoenix PD, do you see a potential for extortion from Mel Gibson`s camp here?
PENZONE: I don`t know the background there. But I have to divert for a minute. I apologize, Pat, but it takes a special bread to be a defense attorney, because domestic violence is a very difficult crime. Women go through very difficult circumstances. They are emotionally attached. There are children involved, on occasion. So six months does not mean you weren`t a victim. So anyone who alleges that -- law enforcement has an obligation, the courts have a responsibility to see if, in fact, that took place.
Additionally, it does not make sense for law enforcement to be leaking these tapes if they`re a possibility, because it would damage their own reputation if they`re not able to go forward and prosecute, in the public`s eyes. I`m not sure where these things are coming from. But if there`s a chance she was a victim, she`s entitled to justice.
LALAMA: Carlos Diaz, someone told me that you are happy about that response from Paul. Go ahead.
DIAZ: Peter Schaffer, dude, are you insane? Just because it happened six months after -- just because she`s making the claim six months after the alleged incident, this is classic Battered Woman Syndrome, where Oksana is holding a two-month-old, allegedly, when Mel allegedly hit her. She`s trying to keep this family together.
It doesn`t matter when she files the claim. It is amazing to me that you are trying to blame her for this entire incident.
SCHAFFER: I`m not trying to blame her. I think it`s fictional that she was holding a child and she waits six months. If someone is holding my child and someone swings at them, I am going to call everyone, from the police to the FBI to the Justice Department. So the fact that she makes these claims six months later --
DIAZ: It`s the man that she is supposedly in love with, and she`s trying to make a relationship work through all of this, and she goes to the dentist and says to the dentist, let`s keep this all under wraps, because she`s trying to save the relationship.
LALAMA: Hey, guys, let me ask Robin Sax something. I still want to know why would a judge amend that restraining order to let him be with the child? This is a woman who`s saying this is happening while I`m holding the child. I don`t understand why she would say, OK, Mel, you stay away from Oksana, but, boy, Mel, you can see that little baby, even though Oksana fears for the baby`s life. Explain that part to me, please.
SAX: First of all, there is a culture in the California Dependency Courts he Family Courts to keep families together, to not alienate parents, and to make sure fathers have access and rights.
LALAMA: Even if they`re in jeopardy? Robin, even if they`re in jeopardy?
SAX: No, of course not. What we have to go back to is what were the exact statements that were in the original restraining order, that were the basis of the restraining order. The proof of what she may have had were the dental injury, which corroborates her injuries, and may not have had any corroboration for the holding of the child until those tapes came about.
Now they can certainly go back --
LALAMA: Joe Lawless, I guess I`m just saying, I -- look, I`m not a judicial officer, but I`m sitting there listening to this story of being punched in the face. I`m just questioning the judge here. I`ll probably get in trouble if I`m ever in that judge`s courtroom covering a story again. But I am questioning the judge`s decision. Help me understand this.
LAWLESS: Pat, the problem is we don`t know what happened in the courtroom. You don`t know what was described, how it was described. I guarantee you, if Mel was in the courtroom that day, his demeanor was not what you`re hearing on the tapes. Judges can be a little star struck. The complaint is made six months later. Oksana might not have been as aggrieved appearing. She may have been a little more amenable.
So we don`t know what the circumstances were. I think if it had happened 24 hours earlier -- I agree with Peter. Somebody hits you when you`re holding a baby, you don`t try to put it back together. A mother who loves her child -- and I have no doubt this woman does -- walks right out the door and goes to the police.
(CROSS TALK)
LALAMA: Wait. Wait. Patricia Saunders, we know that`s just not the way it works. I have to jump in there. Women stay and stay and stay. And there are a lot of horrific reasons why they are forced to stay in these positions. It`s not easy to say, OK, see you later, right?
SAUNDERS: No, it`s impossible for women who are in a domestic violence situation, because the guy and the woman are pathologically dependent on each other. And they will do anything to stay together until it becomes absolutely untenable.
LALAMA: Paul Penzone, a lot of cases -- not in this case, obviously. But women don`t have a place to go. They don`t have -- there are all kinds of circumstances. There is that whole psychological hold on women. I know it`s the big question. A lot of men, in particular, ask, why not get up and leave? It is not that simple.
PENZONE: I`m bun of the few on the panel that has seen the beginning, the middle, and the end when it comes to domestic violence, to stay in the homes over and over again, when it is your life, when it is the person you felt you fell in love, with there are other circumstances, financial stability, your home, taking the child and fear, most importantly. It`s not as easy as I`m just going to make a call right now. So they`re off base with that assumption.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because you know you`re wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s all I`ll accept. And if you will not (EXPLETIVE DELETED) admit that -- Get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out. And I will make your god damn life miserable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Domestic violence accusations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody tells you officially. but you hear --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A domestic violence investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did work very hard and many memories.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) -- you need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) soul. I need medication? I need somebody who treats me like a man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mel Gibson`s foul and offensive rant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t care about me. I`m having a hard time - -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The domestic violence investigation by authorities --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need a woman. I don`t need medication.
GIBSON: I`m here and I`m smiling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is worse. F`ing pig in heat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Alexis Tereszcuk, reporter, Radar Online, witnesses will be critical to this investigation. We understand that Oksana has a child from Timothy Dalton, is that correct, who may or may not have been there?
TERESZCUK: He`s a 12-year-old boy. The reports are that he was -- didn`t actually witness Mel hitting his mother, but he was around, and he knows about it. He has seen the aftermath of everything. He was with his mom. He understands the violent relationship that she had with Mel Gibson. Mel admits that he hit her. He actually says to Oksana on the tape, "you f`ing deserved it," when she said what kind of man would hit a woman holding a child. He has admitted this. This is not something that is in question. He said it to her. He, of course, blames her.
But they`re going to talk to her child. He`s 12 years old. He`s not a little child. He`s certainly not an adult. But he`s somebody that could really give an opinion and be a witness and talk about the violent relationship that his poor mom has had to live in.
LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, I have just a few seconds. But there will probably be, I am going to guess, a smear campaign against her. And potential jurors all over the place will hear that. Will that play into this case, if it ever gets to a trial?
SAUNDERS: I don`t think it will play into the legal aspect of it. It will just be more jury tainting, in terms of the PR.
LALAMA: But it still -- people are not going to be able to avoid listening to it, unfortunately.
SAUNDERS: No.
LALAMA: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army First Lieutenant Christopher Barnett, 32, from Denim Springs, Louisiana, killed in Iraq. He was awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart and Draper Leadership Award. He also served in Germany and Korea. An LSU grad who loved spoiling his niece and nephews, riding motorcycles. He`s remembered for his jokes and motivating his father to not give in to multiple sclerosis.
He leaves behind parents, Bob and Judy, brother and best friend, Jim. Christopher Barnett, an American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests and to you at home for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, everyone.
END
