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Nancy Grace
Teen Chicago Couple Charged in Baby`s Death
Aired September 14, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Live, Chicago, young parents, a bouncing baby boy -- instead of rocking him to sleep and taking family photos, they end up racing to the hospital only to have their baby boy inexplicably, unbelievably pronounced dead to the stunned couple.
Bombshell tonight. Now, in a bizarre twist the baby`s autopsy reveals baby Joel`s death was not natural. It was not accidental. The baby, just 3 months old, was murdered. Suspects number one, Mommy and Daddy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Autopsy results confirm their 3-month-old son`s death was a homicide. The boy`s mother, April Bainter, and father, Joel Ballard, were both charged with aggravated battery and endangering the life of a child. Police say 3-month-old Joel Bainter was taken to the hospital with multiple fractures to the ribs and to the skull. He was pronounced dead the very next morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard it was just her and him in the house. I heard they rushed out and were screaming, My baby`s not breathing. And I guess the neighbor, you know, rushed him into the van and got him to the hospital because the ambulance hadn`t arrived. I guess it arrived right after they left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, South Carolina, 6:00 AM, North Edisto river bank. Police, dive crews pull up a dark-colored Chrysler sedan up out of the murky river waters. Trapped inside, 1 and 2-year-old little brothers, still strapped in carseats. Mommy says it was a horrible accident, but the car went down a boat ramp in neutral, and Mommy is bone dry.
Breaking tonight. In the last hours, murder mom in court. And tonight, did Mommy actually say she wanted to kill her 5-year-old little girl, too, if only she`d been able to reach her? And also tonight, Mommy wants the court to let her walk free on bond.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All rise, please. Court is now in session.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A South Carolina mother accused of killing her two young sons in court today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bodies of two young children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two young boys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Found in a submerged car in a South Carolina river.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The kids were 1 and 2.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still strapped in their child restraint seats when they were found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boys` mother walked almost a mile before calling for help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She murdered both of her children by suffocating them with her own hands.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A South Carolina judge has denied bond for that woman right there, Shavuan Duley (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say the 29-year-old has confessed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In her statement to law enforcement she was asked by Captain Bamberg (ph), Do you have any more children? Ms. Duley stated, Yes, a little girl, 5. Question, Why didn`t you kill her? Answer, She wasn`t with me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was not an accident, with one witness reportedly overhearing police say the car`s ignition was still on when they opened the car door in the water.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her mother is now caring for her third child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Question, If she had been with you, would you have killed her? Answer, I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight, young parents, beautiful young parents, storybook family, bouncing baby boy. But instead of rocking him to sleep and taking family photos, they end up racing to the hospital, only to have their baby boy inexplicably, unbelievably pronounced dead to the stunned couple. But then in a twist, the baby`s autopsy revealed that baby Joel`s death was not natural and not accidental. Suspects number one, Mommy and Daddy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The parents of a Chicago baby have been arrested and charged in connection with the death of their son. Police say 3-month- old Joel Bainter was taken to the hospital with multiple fractures to the ribs and to the skull. He was pronounced dead the very next morning. After autopsy results confirmed the 3-month-old`s death was a homicide, the boy`s parents, mother and father, April Bainter and Joel Ballard, were both charged with aggravated battery and endangering the life of a child. The Department of Family Services say they have no prior contact with this family, but they are investigating both parents on allegations of abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jean Casarez, "In Session" legal correspondent. Jean, what happened?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, the autopsy reports have just been released. And here`s what it`s saying to this little baby boy that was born in June, Nancy, 3 months old, cause of death, blunt force drama caused by child abuse. But no one can understand, Nancy. This beautiful couple that was just starting out their life together, could they be the murderers?
GRACE: Joining us from Chicago, Kathy Chaney, Web editor, Chicagodefender.com. Kathy. Kathy, the couple seemed so happy to have the baby. He was apparently the apple of their eye. They race to the hospital as if they had no idea what had happened to the baby and seem stunned when they got the autopsy reports. What do you know about the couple?
KATHY CHANEY, CHICAGODEFENDER.COM (via telephone): Pretty much just as you said, is that, you know, they were a couple that had no prior connection with the Department of Children and Family Services. There appeared to be no type of incidences before. And you know, they came to the hospital, appeared to be shocked that something happened to the baby. And then now we`re finding out that the child has suffered abuse. And now the investigation goes on into how long before the child got to the hospital had he been abused.
GRACE: So let me find this out -- first let`s unleash the lawyers. Raymond Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney and former fed joining us out of Miami.
First of all to you, Raymond Giudice. If we find out that some of these injuries are older injuries -- and a doctor can tell that, a doctor can look at injuries and tell if there`s been prior abuse -- then there`s no reason for them to have been surprised.
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s right. But keep in mind this child was only 3 months old, so I don`t know how much calcification or bone spurring that you would find on previous fractures in only a 3-month-old child. But I do agree with you. But I`m curious as to why there`s not a homicide charge, and rather just much lesser battery of a child charges. It is possible that the prosecutors or the investigators are leaving open the possibility of some type of an accident here.
GRACE: Wait just a moment. Did you just say accident, Ray Giudice?
GIUDICE: Yes, let me give you an example.
GRACE: OK. Hold -- what...
GIUDICE: If you had a 3-month-old child...
GRACE: What?
GIUDICE: ... in a highchair and the highchair fell over by accident, its skull could be crushed and it could have broken ribs.
GRACE: No!
GIUDICE: I wouldn`t say that happens every day...
GRACE: No! No!
GIUDICE: ... but that`s an accident.
GRACE: You couldn`t. You could not fall. Put up the diagram of the autopsy again, Liz. You absolutely could not fall two-and-a-half feet and get a fractured skull and multiple fractures to the ribs. Outline those injuries again for me, Jean Casarez.
CASAREZ: To the head, fractured skull and trauma to numerous ribs. That`s why the cause of death is due to child abuse, they`re saying.
GRACE: Put the lawyers back up again! See, Ray Giudice, statements like what you said are reckless.
GIUDICE: Well, here`s...
GRACE: To suggest that...
GIUDICE: No, they`re not because...
GRACE: I`m not through!
GIUDICE: Let`s have an M.D....
GRACE: To suggest that a little...
GIUDICE: ... answer that question and not just you little old JDs. Let`s get an M.D. or an accident reconstruction expert, see if that could happen. We got a bunch of lawyers and reporters saying, Oh, that couldn`t happen that way. Well, guess what?
GRACE: No! We`ve actually got...
GIUDICE: Law enforcement didn`t charge...
GRACE: ... we got a lawyer...
GIUDICE: ... them with murder.
GRACE: ... that refuses to allow anyone else to speak, and that would be you. So I will go to Hugo Rodriguez. And Liz, please cut Giudice`s mike while Rodriguez speaks so we can at least give him his chance to speak. Hugo Rodriguez, you`re a former fed with the FBI. Now, please keep a straight face. That is complete BS. It is absolutely reckless to suggest that a child could get a fractured skull and multiple injuries to the rib cage from a fall two-and-a-half feet from a highchair. You know, don`t -- that`s -- that`s unfair. That`s unfair to put such a reckless theory out there!
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Whether it`s possible or not, we don`t have the facts in this case. I am lining up on the side of these are two young kids, something unfortunate has happened. They`re going to be separated out. Your question is, Why haven`t they been charged with murder or at least second degree? That still may come. But I think that they`re going to be separated out. I think one of them is going to be approached to tell the full story of what happened, so that then they will pursue maybe some stronger charges against one of the other parents. That`s normally what happens in an unfortunate situation like this, Nancy.
GRACE: You are seeing shots from the parents` own MySpace page. They`re absolutely beautiful -- the couple, the baby. Liz, please bring down our banner so we can see shots of the parents.
I want to go now to our special guest joining us out of Omaha. Tonight with us, Dr. Laura Jana, pediatrician and author of "Heading Home With Your Newborn: From Birth to Reality." Dr. Jana, thank you so much for being with us. I think that lawyers throwing out the suggestion that one fall from a highchair -- I`ve got highchairs everywhere at my house, at my parents` house, at my brother and sister-in-law`s house. Everybody`s house has highchairs. They`re about three feet. Maybe the seat is three feet, maybe two-and-a-half feet off the ground. A child, a 3-month-old baby, is not going to fall two-and-a-half feet, three feet and get a blow to the head and multiple fractures to the skull. It`s just not going to happen!
DR. LAURA JANA, PEDIATRICIAN: You know, Nancy, it sounds very improbable. And unfortunately, this type of case is all too common, where you want to not believe that somebody could do this to an infant. And quite honestly, we have to remember that new parenthood and having a young infant is very stressful. The facts of the matter is, from what I`ve understand, of the skull fracture and multiple fractures, this is a case that has to be evaluated for intent. And I will add that those sorts of injuries -- there is a science behind what type of skull fracture -- does it cross suture lines -- that very clearly delineates whether any sorts of fractures in an infant indicate a fall versus abuse.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining us out of New York. Brand-new parents. Liz, I want to see those shots of the parents again, parents that seemed to be stunned when they found out. Their child did not die by accident. Their child did not die by natural causes. Their child was murdered. Caryn, look at this couple. There she is right after she gave birth. Explain.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Because they are so young, Nancy, I really feel like -- it reminds me of shaken baby syndrome, where someone is more aggressive, and they don`t understand this is an infant. It`s so fragile.
GRACE: But this was not just shaking a baby -- the baby with a fracture to the skull, a full-on fracture, multiple breaks in the ribs, with a race to the hospital, screaming, running out of their home, My baby`s not breathing. Police turned on them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The parents of a Chicago baby have been arrested and charged in connection with the death of their son. Police say 3-month- old Joel Bainter was taken to the hospital with multiple fractures to the ribs and to the skull. He was pronounced dead the very next morning. After autopsy results concluded the 3-month-old boy`s death was a homicide, the boy`s parents, mother and father, April Bainter and Joel Ballard, were both charged with aggravated battery and endangering the life of a child. The Department of Family Services say they have no prior contact with this family, but they are investigating both parents on allegations of abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Tia in Missouri. Hi, Tia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You know, I wonder if there`s any kind of evidence on their FaceBook page or their MySpace page that shows if they were on drugs or partying a lot or were drinking.
GRACE: Good question. Out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "The Profiler." Any suggestion in your mind that drugs were involved?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, there`s always a possibility. And we have to be very careful not to pay attention to those still photos or those little videos somebody does. We`re always smiling and happy in those, but there`s the other 23 hours and 50 minutes a day we got to go through, and that`s with a screaming little baby.
So it`ll be interesting to see what the history is and also what their location looks like, what their home looks like. Is it fully carpeted? Was there any place for the child to have that little accident? Did some - - did anybody say when they came out, I tripped going down the wooden stairs and fell on my baby? Or did they say nothing about that until they got to the hospital and said, We don`t know what happened, the baby was lying in the crib? So it`s all going to be very important to separate these two and find out what their real stories are and find out what they said right away.
GRACE: But the reality -- to Marlaina Schiavo, our producer on the story -- is that with multiple fractures to the ribs, that can`t be a from a single fall. The baby doesn`t bounce down the stairs or bounce when it falls from the highchair. That doesn`t happen.
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: And the cops are saying that this was caused by blunt force trauma caused by child abuse. And it was not just multiple fractures to the rib, Nancy. It was also multiple fractures to the skull. So one single fall isn`t going to cut it.
GRACE: You know, what`s so amazing is that right now in our culture - - I`m going to throw this one to you, Dr. Caryn Stark -- we`ve got on the cover of "People" magazine, of "US Weekly," I believe on the cover of "OK!" magazine, all about MTV`s hit, I believe it`s "Teen Mom," celebrating teen moms. And now, in this true life story, not a reality series, it`s taken one step further.
STARK: It`s taken one step further, Nancy, because I think that they`re too young developmentally. They really don`t understand that a baby is fragile. They also have to have an ability to stop once they`re turned on and they`re angry. You know, babies -- they`re not toys and they can demand a lot of attention. You`re talking about the possibility that somebody was angry and couldn`t put the brakes on. They got started and they couldn`t stop.
GRACE: We are taking your calls right now. The parents that you are seeing, almost out of a storybook, they look so young, so beautiful, and apparently, seemed totally in love with each other and the baby, now charged with aggravated battery of a child, endangering the life of a child. But that`s going to change because this baby, their 3-month-old baby boy Joel, is dead.
Back to the lawyers, Raymond Giudice, Hugo Rodriguez. To you, Hugo. When will it turn to a murder charge, and what`s the delay?
RODRIGUEZ: I think that they`re going to -- I think someone else mentioned it. I think they`re going to separate both of the parents. They`re going to be talked to, and I think one of them is going to tell -- at least one of them is going to tell the true story of what happened. Depending on what occurs there, then you may see more serious charges against the other parent.
If they both stay solid, then you`ll see possibly stronger charges against both of them. They have to be able to prove either that it`s second-degree murder, but first-degree murder would probably be very difficult because it probably wasn`t intentional. They`re brand-new...
GRACE: OK, you know what? That doesn`t even make any sense because, Pat Brown, criminal profile profiler, you and I both know that premeditation can be formed in an instant, in the time it takes to raise the gun and pull the trigger. So if you say that a baby has been beaten over and over and over again with all of these fractures, it certainly shows time to create intent.
BROWN: Well, I think the lawyers are going to argue that one with you because the intent is anger and rage, but the intent is not necessarily to kill, just to hurt, and the hurt turns into death. And so that turns into murder, but not necessarily murder one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Autopsy results confirm their 3-month-old son`s death was a homicide. The boy`s mother, April Bainter, and father, Joel Ballard, were both charged with aggravated battery and endangering the life of a child. Police say 3-month-old Joel Bainter was taken to the hospital with multiple fractures to the ribs and to the skull. He was pronounced dead the very next morning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: "People" magazine, "US Weekly", "OK!" all celebrating teen motherhood. But teen motherhood ended in the death of a 3-month-old baby boy, and now likely murder charges.
We are taking your calls, but I want to go back out to Jean Casarez. Jean Casarez, we heard a neighbor talking about them running out of the home saying, Our baby`s not breathing, our baby`s not breathing. What else do we know?
CASAREZ: Well, we know that when they got to the hospital, as we have said, that they were in surprise and shock and couldn`t believe what was happening. But the Department of Children and Families has never investigated this couple. They were just having their first child. And we also know that neither one of them, we don`t believe at this point, had a criminal background.
GRACE: Kathy Chaney, what can you tell us about where did they live? Did they have any family support? What were the circumstances surrounding this baby`s death?
CHANEY: They lived in an area on the south side, or the southwest side that`s near Cellular Field. And it`s a community-based, you know, family-based neighborhood. They did have some support, so it`s still stunning to hear that, you know, these parents actually were...
GRACE: When you say they had support, what do you mean by that?
CHANEY: They had some relatives that had support. They had friends` support. But there were relatives that they had support for them.
GRACE: And to Marlaina Schiavo, our producer on the story, how long have they had them under arrest on the aggravated battery charges?
SCHIAVO: At this point, they are -- they`ve been behind bars for less than two days, less than 48 hours, Nancy.
GRACE: The bond is set at $750,000. That means they`ve got to put up 10 percent of that. How will that work, Ray?
GIUDICE: ... ways, a cash bond, which is crazy, a property bond with equity worth $750,000 or 10 percent of that, $75,000, to a bail bond company who becomes the surety.
GRACE: Weigh in, Paul Penzone. What do you think?
PAUL PENZONE, CHILDHELP.ORG: ... the bigger problem. We see this one case. But you know what? Five children every day die in the United States in similar cases. Parenting is a very complex responsibility. We need to be more engaged in education and awareness when it comes to this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joel was in the gangway with the baby on his -- holding the baby, trying to get it to breath, put -- giving it mouth-to mouth resuscitation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are taking you now to breaking news in Arkansas. A missing toddler has been found. Her body in a local creek.
Straight out to Jean Casarez. Jean, what are you hearing?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Nancy, we are getting breaking news right now. The body of a little 3-year-old girl was just found in the creek on the park of Barling, Creek, Arkansas.
She is 3-year-old Savanna Houser. Her body was found 30 yards from where she initially disappeared. There are too many questions and not enough answers.
But, Nancy, her clothes were found in plastic bags near where the body was found. Her family came to the camp site just to have fun, to have ice cream. They turned around, she was gone. And now her body has been found.
GRACE: OK. Her clothes are found in a plastic bag near where her body was found. That doesn`t make sense.
And also, isn`t it true -- out to you, Alexis Weed -- that she was in the middle of being adopted? These were not her biological parents?
ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right. And you know this little toddler, she was wearing just a diaper when she was left. And the parents were said to have gone to get some ice cream out of a car, turn their heads for just a minute, and this little girl somehow made it down perhaps to the water. And like it`s been said, her lifeless body was found there in the creek.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, what else do we know? Who all was there at the scene? Just the parents? Or who else was there?
CASAREZ: This was a family day. We know the parents were there. But, Nancy, this was a little autistic girl. A little autistic 3-year-old that was gone missing for just a blink of an eye and found now in a creek.
GRACE: And we`re getting news live out of Arkansas. Missing toddler has been found. The little girl`s body lifeless in a creek nearby where her parents said they were having a family outing.
To you, Jean Casarez, what now? What are we going to find out about the cause of death?
CASAREZ: Well, Nancy, an autopsy has to be performed. Of course investigators are combing the area to understand how this happened, why this happened? Was there anyone there that the family saw? We are right in the midst of the investigative stage.
GRACE: It`s my understanding, were there volunteers and rescue workers looking for the little girl? And who found her, Jean?
CASAREZ: Yes, everyone was looking for the little girl, and I believe one of those that got near the creek found the body and also those belongings that were found close by.
GRACE: OK, everybody. We`ll bring you the latest as we hear it about the little 3-year-old girl. Her body just found there at Barling Creek, Arkansas.
And now we`re taking you to the story of a mom. A so-called murder mom just in court in the last hours.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Shaquan Duley. She was at this hearing today. Investigators say the 29-year-old has confessed.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Two young boys have been recovered from a vehicle submerged in a river in South Carolina.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant does have a 5-year-old child, your honor, a daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A South Carolina judge has denied bonds for that woman right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was asked by Captain Lambert (ph), do you have anymore more children. Miss Duley stated yes, a little girl, 5. Question, why didn`t you kill her? Answer, she wasn`t with me.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She described what happened as an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The car, sheriff investigators believe, went into the water here at this boat landing on the Edisto River.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The mother is now behind bars.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They don`t deserve it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The boys only 1 and 2 years old died still strapped in their car seat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Question, if she had been with you, would you have killed her? Answer, I don`t know.
DAVID SMITH, HUSBAND OF SUSAN SMITH, WOMAN WHO KILLED THEIR CHILDREN: It took me many years to actually allow myself to think of how they drown, you know, having to -- you know, breathe in water and just the horrible way that they probably had to drown. It took many years for me to even start to deal with that, and face that, yes.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. The mom, now charged in the murders in two of her children, a 1 and 2-year-old little boy, admits that she would have killed her little girl, a third dead child, if only she could have reached the little girl.
Straight out to Michael Brown, anchor joining us out of South Carolina Radio Network.
Michael, what happened in court?
MICHAEL BROWN, ANCHOR/REPORTER, SOUTH CAROLINA RADIO NETWORK: That`s right, Nancy. Today in Orangeburg County in court she was denied bond. And she had a lot of people with her on the defense side. And they kind of went with the suicidal mind, saying that she was suicidal at the time. And what they released today was that she actually went in the water with her two toddlers when she put them in the car --
GRACE: Whoa. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Who said that, Michael Brown? Because when police got there she was bone dry.
M. BROWN: That was evidence that Karl Grant released, which is her attorney, that he released in court today.
GRACE: Her attorney says she tried to drown along with them? Yes, well why was she bone dry then? That`s what I would like to know.
We are taking your calls. Out to Sophia in Arizona, hi, Sophia.
SOPHIA, CALLER FROM ARIZONA: Hi, Nancy. So nice to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise.
SOPHIA: I want to know, can she get the death penalty for this?
GRACE: Absolutely. Right now the prosecutors have not announced whether they will seek the death penalty, but in practically every jurisdiction, Sophia in Arizona, where more than one person is killed is deemed to be mass murder, more than one body.
Two children in this case, a 1-year-old and a 2-year-old. This qualifies for the Carolina death penalty.
And now I`m going to go to Caryn Stark,. Suicide? Schmuicide. There`s no suicide attempt here. The people that she stopped, that she flagged down for help, they said she was bone dry. And that`s also what the chief of police told me.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Unacceptable, Nancy. If she wanted to kill herself, she would have killed herself. Obviously it`s a person who doesn`t have feelings. She had no real attachment to these babies the way you would think a mother would. Or this would never, ever have happened.
Look at her eyes. I mean she -- they look dead. She has no real emotion. I don`t care if she wanted to kill herself, she would have killed herself, not them.
GRACE: And, Jean Casarez, as we delve into the facts, this is what we know tonight. We know that she checked in using cash at a local motel. We know that according to police she killed her two little boys, smothered them to death, one by one with her bare hands.
Then snuck them out of the motel, put them back into the family car, strapped them in, and put the car in neutral and eased it down a boat ramp. That does not sound like a suicide attempt to me, Jean.
CASAREZ: And we learned even more today. Because on the question of risk of flight, the prosecutor said -- and we never heard this before -- that that night when she was still with her mother, law enforcement was called to the scene because of the altercation between her and her mother, and she left, she fled the home.
She then went to her father`s home. She could have stayed there, but she fled the father`s home and then checked into the motel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Hello. Yes. I`m on Shillings Bridge Road, and a car ran in the pond and got kids in there. We need help fast please.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What county are you in?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Shillings Bridge. That`s the name of the road, right? OK. The Shillings Bridge Road.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What county?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: What county? We`re in Orangeburg County.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What`s another road are you near?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What is another road you`re near on Shillings Bridge?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: It`s 38-1203.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: You don`t see another street name?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I know. It`s -- Edisto Lake Road, I believe. Edisto Lake Road. But the car will be on --
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Shillings Bridge.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Shillings Bridge, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: You said a vehicle went into a pond?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes. Mm-hmm.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Is there an address or anything near there?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: There`s no address except for the lake. That`s all.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right. Are the people that were in the car, did they get out or are they still in the car?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: The driver got out but the kids, two kids still in there.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Did you witness it or were you riding along?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: No, I didn`t witness anything. No. I just pulled up and she was on the side of the road waving help down.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right. I`ll get some help out to you all. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Mm-hmm.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Bye-bye.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What`s your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Hey, this is Highway.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Hey, we got a call for -- at Shillings Bridge Road.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes, ma`am. We got it, too.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: You got it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A year old and 2-year-old in a car?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: He just said two small children.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The bodies of two young boys have been recovered from a vehicle submerged in a river in South Carolina.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their death was not the result of drowning.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That car floated some 50 yards down the river with the bodies of a 1 and 2-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Devon specifically had contusions to his lower right lip and esophagus area consistent with trauma of being held down against his will and being suffocated to death.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The Orangeburg County sheriff is saying the boy`s mother walked almost a mile before calling for help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Devon also had a contusion to his neck and abrasion area to his chin, again consistent with being held down against his will and murdered by suffocation.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are hearing the facts laid out just a couple of hours ago in an open court. And there you see the so-called murder mom. She is charged in the smothering deaths of a 1-year-old and 2-year-old little boy, her own children.
This as her family and supporters come up with stories about what happened that day, but the reality is her children, both little boys, were smothered to death by her bare hands, according to police, there in a motel for which she paid cash -- no shortage of cash -- $100 for a couple of hours stay in a motel.
Strapping them into the family car and then lowering them down a boat ramp. Seemingly an accident until mommy turns up bone dry waving down cars for help.
And today in a stunning revelation we learned she says she wanted to kill -- would have killed her little girl, too. Her 5-year-old little girl. But she couldn`t reach her.
We are taking your calls live.
Out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. What do you think? How long until they announce they`re seeking the death penalty?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": They better be seeking the death penalty on this one. And if we were talking about a man, we would not be having this discussion.
If it had been the father who said I had an argument with the mom while I was baby-sitting my two boys, so I left the house and I went over to the -- my girlfriend`s house and talked with her but I didn`t want to leave the kids with her either, so I took them to a hotel and murdered my two children, we wouldn`t be having this discussion.
Just because she`s a female, that -- for some reason keep saying, I don`t know why she did it. She did it because she didn`t want the children. She wanted to get back at her mom, and she was a psychopath. Let`s go and say that.
GRACE: We amazingly see somewhat of the same motive in tot mom Casey Anthony`s case who had a bitter argument with her mother just before little Caylee was killed.
To Dr. Laura Jana, doctor, pediatrician and author of "Heading Home with Your Newborn: from Birth to Reality."
Dr. Jana, how can the doctors tell whether or not the baby boys were smothered to death or they died by drowning?
DR. LAURA JANA, M.D., PEDIATRICIAN, AUTHOR OF "HEADING HOME WITH YOUR NEWBORN": Well, you know, unfortunately there`s a science to this as well. And determining how someone dies, what the condition of their lungs are, the other tissues in the body can give a lot of input as to how they died.
Unfortunately, on either case, it sounds like -- you know, Nancy, you and I both know parenting is stressful. We`re going far beyond stress and the stress of parenting when we`re talking about either scenario.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney and former fed with the FBI, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta.
So, Raymond Giudice, you going to chalk this up to a fall out of a highchair, too?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy. In fact, I`m going to disagree with --
GRACE: Good.
GIUDICE: -- the defense lawyer and I don`t think I would even have asked for a bond and started showing my hand -- any defenses that I might make to try to keep her out of the death penalty.
Whether it`s a psychological defense or some sort of suicidal defense, I would have kept my powder dry on that matter until the trial. She wasn`t getting a bond once that DA announced the evidence that she may cause harm to the other child.
GRACE: Well, you know, and that came from her own mouth, Hugo Rodriguez. She said, I would have killed my 5-year-old little girl but she wasn`t there. I couldn`t get her.
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: That`s correct, Nancy. This is reminiscent of the --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No way are they going to let this woman walk free.
RODRIGUEZ: No. She`s not going to get a bond. And some years ago we had a little Susan Smith in South Carolina. Similar situation. And it`s going to fall right into the crack of what she did. She`ll probably go to the trial, try to claim some type of insanity defense. That`s very difficult in today`s day. And that will fail.
GRACE: Out to Paul Penzone, VP of Prevention Program at Childhelp.org. You know, they are clearly going to argue insanity. But the fact that she`s so carefully laid out this ruse to pretend that they had been drowned, in my mind, defeats an insanity.
PAUL PENZONE, DIRECT OF PREVENTION PROGRAMS, CHILDHELP.ORG, FMR. SERGEANT, PHOENIX PD: No, it`s too methodical. She thought too many aspects of how -- going through the entire process. So there`s no way that it`s just kind of a reactionary thing or insanity.
Both these cases tonight are unforgivable. There`s so many resources out there to help parents who are struggling for whatever reason. We need to stop making excuses for people who harm children, hold them accountable, and find more ways to get more education out there so people look for help if you`re having problems raising a child.
It`s not an easy process, but you know what? They`re God`s gift to us, and we need to take better care of them.
GRACE: Stephanie in New Jersey, hi, Stephanie.
STEPHANIE, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. Is the woman that killed her children -- is she saying that she`s insane because she admitted to killing them?
GRACE: Well, what it sounds like, Stephanie -- well, I do think that`s where she`s headed at an ultimate jury trial. But it seems like right now her lawyer is putting out there that this was a failed bid at suicide.
And to you, Pat Brown, why is it that so often we see murders saying I really wanted to kill myself?
P. BROWN: Well, they usually say that later when they talk with their defense attorney who`s got to come up with some kind of defense for an indefensible crime. Really, that`s one of the problems. I would love to put a video camera in every room with the defense attorney in the backroom just to see what stories they decide to come up with that has nothing to do with what the defendant actually ever said to them.
GRACE: What about it, Caryn Stark?
STARK: I agree. I mean if she wanted to kill herself she would have killed herself. There`s no explanation for this. I mean this is somebody who is a sociopath, Nancy. She really was able to very personally take these children against their will and kill them.
What kind of maternal bond is that? We all know that that`s not the way we see a mother being. So something is wrong with her ability to feel. I don`t see how they`re going to able to say that she wanted to kill herself. But oh by the way, accidentally she killed her children.
GRACE: This is right along the lines of all of the other murder moms that we have seen. Delaney, Andrea Yates, Susan Smith, the list goes on and on.
But, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," was there any indication whatsoever that she tried to commit suicide?
CASAREZ: Well, question of fact because the prosecution said there were superficial wounds on her wrist. The defense said no, there were real cuts on her wrist from a box knife where she tried to commit suicide.
GRACE: Back to Michael Brown, joining us out of South Carolina Radio Network.
Michael, what did the defense attorney tell the court as to why this woman should make bond on the murders of her 1 and 2-year-old little boys?
M. BROWN: Well, the defense attorney is actually saying that she is not a danger to the community. That she`s not. That`s what the prosecution is arguing, she`s a danger. The defense is saying she`s not. That she was depressed at the time and she had a suicidal mind but now she is OK to get out.
GRACE: Depressed.
M. BROWN: And interesting enough, the mother --
GRACE: We`re all depressed. All right? Go ahead.
M. BROWN: The mother and the father were in court today and if you recall, she actually was saying that the mother was the reason for killing her two sons, that they had an argument with the mother today in court that she`s a good mother.
GRACE: Oh OK. There you go, Ray Giudice. There`s your defense. It was the mother`s fault.
GIUDICE: He, Nancy? Hey, Nancy?
GRACE: Not her. Her mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The boys with her own hands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The causes of death are asphyxiation due to strangulation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was charged as two counts of murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The type of call we responded to was an auto accident.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right, are the people that were in the car, did they get out or are they still in the car?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: The driver got out but the two kids are still in there.
SMITH: It was just a shock for many, many months. I didn`t have any, like, control over what I did. People would have to, you know, tell me when to get up, tell me to be at this place or be at that place because I just didn`t even know where I was.
And then it went to -- you know, I guess sadness and then the very severe depression started coming.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The call came in just after 6:30 Monday morning from a mother telling 911 that her car went into the Edisto River. The woman also told dispatchers that her two sons were in the car.
Orangeburg County`s dive team responded and found the boys, still strapped inside their car seats.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Michael Brown with South Carolina Radio Network.
Michael, she is trying to blame her own mother?
M. BROWN: Yes, that`s what she actually did back in August. August 16th whenever it happens. She said not only did she had financial troubles because she was unemployed, but she had so much going on that she was arguing with her mother at the time.
GRACE: OK, Giudice, what about that as a defense?
GIUDICE: Nancy, Susan -- Yates, Andrea Yates was found guilty but mentally ill and did not get the death penalty for killing four children. And Smith was found -- she used her mental health defense to get a life sentence for killing three children.
GRACE: What`s your point?
GIUDICE: So don`t -- so don`t write it off as a possibility of keeping this lady out of the death penalty.
GRACE: OK, so that`s what you have to say in response to her blaming her mother?
GIUDICE: Yes. It`s -- worked twice and --
GRACE: OK. So you want to rehash history. Yes, you`re right. Maybe the defense can strike a nutty jury.
GIUDICE: OK. So don`t write it off.
GRACE: Yes. That wasn`t even the question, but you know, thanks for sharing that.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember. Army Sergeant Mark Maida, 21. Madison, Wisconsin, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation, Army Achievement medal.
Never met a stranger, remembered for his sense of humor. Loved the outdoors, golf, guitar, banjo. Favorite singers, Johnny Cash and Jimmy Buffet. Dreamed of college. Leaves behind grieving parents Raymond and Diane. Sister Julianne, brothers Aaron and Christopher, a Marine who served in Iraq.
Mark Maida, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but most of all to you for being with us. And tonight, a special happy birthday to our show`s executive producer, Dean. He co-created the show way back when, and he has stuck with us all through thick and thin.
His big birthday bash tonight? Going home after the show to kiss his three little boys, Luke, Will, and Matthew, and his wife Karen good night.
Happy birthday.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
END
