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Nancy Grace
Convicted Child Molester Set Free in Utah
Aired April 07, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. He walks free! A shocking turn of events in the case of the convicted child sex predator we`ve been following closely for days. Just moments ago, a judge sets Lonnie Johnson free. This convicted child molester already has a long history of sex attacks on children and was facing 21 new charges, including rape and sodomy. But now he`s free to walk the streets. Why? All because of a legal loophole.
What`s even more disturbing is Johnson walks into court without a care in the world, smiling and winking at the crowd, and his family erupting into cheers when the judge sets him free. If he strikes once, then twice, chances are he will strike again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The judge officially said to Lonnie Johnson, You are a free man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to release him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A convicted child molester.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s just going to walk out free!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This one has my blood boiling!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why would they put him on the street?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of all the mental disorders.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The most incurable is pedophilia!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re not happy, but we`ve just begun to fight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is walking the streets where your children are right now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you let this man babysit your child?
NANCY GRACE, HOST: No!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re not going to let this die. We`re not going to lay down, and we`re not going to go away.
GRACE: Stop this travesty!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are basically going to let him loose. How can they let somebody loose who has allegedly created these heinous crimes? Can`t let him out. The guy`s a child rapist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. Shock and outrage in Utah, where we`re live on the scene, awaiting the release of a convicted child molester who is set to walk free at any minute. And it`s because of a legal loophole. Right now, we have the cameras at the hospital. We`re waiting for him to walk out at any minute, and we will show that to you live.
But first, let`s go straight to Jim Kirkwood. He`s a talk show host with KTKK radio. He is live in Utah, where all of this travesty of justice went down. Jim, this is unbelievable. What happened?
JIM KIRKWOOD, TALK SHOW HOST, KTKK RADIO (via telephone): Well, it started with his conviction in `06 in the state of Washington for a rape of a 17-year-old. And then the two girls here in Utah heard about that, and they had kept it secret from their parents because it started at age 8, in about 2001, is my understanding. And he had a four or five-year, I guess, a relationship with those two girls, and then they reported it and he was charged with 21 counts of child rape and child sexual abuse.
COSBY: So Jim, he gets charged with 21 counts and you talk about the ages. Tell us about the ages of these new counts.
KIRKWOOD: It started, according to the girls and the mother, at age 8.
COSBY: Age 8.
KIRKWOOD: Yes.
COSBY: You know, I have to ask you today -- this guy is going to get free at any moment again. Everybody, we have a live shot. We will show it to you when this, again, convicted child rapist will get out. We are monitoring that. He is expected to get out at any moment -- who is facing 21 charges and was set loose by a legal loophole.
Jim, I have to ask you, in court today, there were reports he was smiling, that he was winking. Tell us about this.
KIRKWOOD: That is also my understanding. He was winking at some of his family members, very happy, not a care in the world. Why not? After a couple of years in state mental hospitals...
COSBY: Why not? Why not? This guy is a convicted, horrible human being! I doubt the victims are smiling tonight, Jim!
KIRKWOOD: Oh, they`re -- my understanding is they`re hysterical. They`re -- it`s like they`re being victimized all over again.
COSBY: You bet! Let`s go to Paul Penzone. He`s a former sergeant with Phoenix Police Department, also a child advocate. Paul, this is disgusting!
PAUL PENZONE, FMR. SGT., PHOENIX POLICE DEPARTMENT: That`s one of the few strong words you can use to describe what`s going on here. If you truly know the mindset of a pedophile, you know that they will repeat. And the fact that the justice system couldn`t -- I don`t understand how he can be deemed incompetent but competent enough to say that he`s safe in society. He`s not safe. There`s going to be more children victims down the road.
COSBY: You bet. And everybody, we are going to be taking your calls, as well. We do want to hear from you. I am sure you are as outraged as we are.
Let`s go, if we could, to Christy Danner. She was in court today. She is the mother of one of these victims, one of these beautiful little girls. Christy, you must be stunned. You must be outraged. And you must be so disgusted with the legal system.
CHRISTY DANNER, MOTHER OF VICTIM: I`m really disappointed in it right now. We kind of knew going in today that he was going to be released, so we were able to at least anticipate that. But yes, we`re not happy, and the girls are feeling victimized again. And our only thing is, is we have to close this loophole. Judge Taylor did the best he could, but he has to follow the state laws. And when I was -- watched him in court, you could tell -- and he even said, I have been looking at these laws and I have to follow the laws. And unfortunately, that means I have to let him go right now.
COSBY: When you were in court...
DANNER: So we have to change the law.
COSBY: ... what did it look like, Christy, to see this man who did this to your daughter?
DANNER: It just makes you sick. And you have to keep reminding yourself that you`ll be back to fight another day. You know, you can`t -- what I wanted to do was jump over and take care of it myself, but that`s not what we can do and that`s not the way our system works. And we`re going to have to fix this system and then, hopefully, get him back in the state of Utah and find him competent, get some more doctors that will maybe find him competent so we can try him.
COSBY: You know, Christy, when you were there, did you see him smiling? Did you see this animal winking?
DANNER: He tried to wink at one of the girls today when he was entering the courtroom. And he definitely had a grin on his face the whole time, which is something he`s never had in the past during court hearings. He knew he was leaving as well as we did.
COSBY: You know, that`s the thing. And I cannot imagine how you feel, that this guy who`s claimed to be incompetent, you know, and that all these doctors, at least two so far, claim him incompetent -- and we`re going to get to that in a moment because there`s some major issues, I think, with that. And then he`s in court smiling like he knows he`s going to get out, yet he`s incompetent to stand trial? How do you make sense as a mother of that?
DANNER: Well, I have been saying I think he`s faking this. He went from somebody that had a great business, made really good money, to now he can`t put two words together when the judge is talking to him. He can`t understand two words spoken to him.
COSBY: Yes.
DANNER: You know, it -- it`s hilarious in some ways, if it wasn`t such a sad story.
COSBY: It is absolutely sad.
DANNER: How he`s played the system.
COSBY: It is shameful! It is absolutely shameful! And we hope that we get justice for your daughter and for the other victims. Stay with us, if you could, Christy.
Let`s go to Annie Cutler. She`s our affiliate reporter who`s out there on the scene, with CNN affiliate KTVK. Annie, tell us about the scene in the courtroom today. I am just -- when I hear this guy`s smiling, winking, happy to be there, knowing he`s getting out, it is shocking!
ANNIE CUTLER, KTVK CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Rita, I was focusing on sort of the attorneys and what the judge was saying. The few times I did catch a glimpse of Lonnie Johnson sitting in the courtroom, it was interesting that he was competent enough, in my opinion, to be looking down, looking down at his lap every time the pool photographer had his lens up at him. So again, he was looking down for most of the hearing today.
But when the judge made the decision that he is to be released from the Utah state hospital today, I believe it was his mother who clapped and was, you know, very happy with the decision.
COSBY: Wait!
CUTLER: ... in court...
COSBY: Annie! Annie! Annie! Tell me about the clapping. This is disgusting! Her son has already pled guilty to a prior case from 2006. He`s up facing 21 charges, starting at 8 years old, molesting a poor little girl, and then another one at 10. And the mother`s clapping?
CUTLER: Yes, she clapped in court. I just saw the back of her head, but when we all stood up to leave the courtroom, to get our cameras ready, she did clap a couple of times. And when they walked out, she -- there was a gentleman that blocked her from the cameras. She walked off down the hallway just saying, We`re happy, we`re happy. Lonnie Johnson`s sister just simply said, No comment, Annie. I have no comment for you.
But you know, this whole time that I`ve been covering this for the last couple weeks, his family members are saying that the conviction in Washington was wrongful, he was wrongfully accused. He took a plea deal. Nothing happened. They have been telling me this whole time that the 20 felony child sex abuse charges he`s facing here in Utah are all fictitious, there`s no more to it to them claiming that the current estranged wife made all of this up, wrangled her daughter and the cousin to testify the way they did. And of course, this whole time, the family is saying this is false. He did not do any of this. That`s been their stance the whole time.
COSBY: Well, I think it`s absolutely disgusting! Everybody, we are going to be taking your calls. We want to hear from you. This is shocking! There is a legal loophole, and we want to show you a little bit about what this legal loophole is. There`s a couple of different things, as we talked about, whether he`s competent or not. And then the other question is the statute in Utah, which basically says, whether or not this was bodily harm, whether rape and sexual assault, shockingly enough, is not bodily harm in the state of Utah. Something is wrong in Utah.
Let`s go if we could, to Greg Skordas. He is a former DA there, deputy DA. Greg, give us a sense how this judge could justify setting out this guy free.
And by the way, everyone, we are standing by. We expect that this man will be released at any moment, again, a convicted sex predator who was about to possibly face charges, 21 new charges, of raping and sodomizing an 8-year-old girl and 10-year-old girl. We are standing by live. He is expected to be released any more, we are expecting during this show, and we will show that to you as he walks out, disgustingly walks out free.
You know, Greg, what is the justification in Utah, and how can the judge make this decision that this guy is going to walk out? He can even leave the state, is my understanding.
GREG SKORDAS, FMR. SALT LAKE CITY DEPUTY DA (via telephone): That`s right. And what the judge did was he looked at two things. And very quickly, one is his attorneys filed a petition saying, Well, he`s not competent to stand trial. And that`s a legal issue as to whether or not he can assist his attorneys, whether he can provide some assistance in his own defense, whether he can consult with them.
And so the judge sent him out to the state hospital, where he`s been evaluated nine times in the last two years. Those doctors finally came back and said, Look, he is not only incompetent, but we believe because of a mental illness, a cognitive disorder, that he will never have his competency restored. Because of that, the criminal case can`t go forward.
The state then decided to proceed with a civil commitment, and that`s the one that`s caused all the concern because the judge in that matter has said, based on the experts, the doctors, that he`s no longer a threat to himself or others.
COSBY: No longer a threat. He rapes girls and he`s no longer a threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: A judge made it official. This guy is walking the streets. He is out! He is free!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How dare he take these little girls and destroy them the way he does. I mean, he`s raping their bodies, but he is destroying their souls at the same time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And a shocker tonight. As we are awaiting live outside a hospital in Utah, waiting because 38-year-old Lonnie Johnson is going to be released at any moment -- the judge has set him free -- let`s go to Annie Cutler, who`s there on the scene. Tell us what`s going on right there now, Annie.
CUTLER: Well, you got to love this Utah weather. It`s certainly starting to dump down on us. But that has nothing to do with this story.
I just got off the phone with Lonnie Johnson`s sister about 30, 40 minutes ago. And she told me on the phone at that point that Johnson had not left this Utah state hospital just yet, and then she proceeded to hang up the phone. So I am to believe that he is still here, and just like you mentioned, should be walking out of here any second.
I did get off the phone with the hospital public relations spokesperson. She says that if it`s a judge that deems that a suspect needs to be here in this hospital, then once the judge deems that they should be released, there`s not a lot more they can do. I mean, at this point, she made it sound like he didn`t even have to sign any paperwork, just that...
COSBY: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait!
CUTLER: ... he would be transported here...
COSBY: Annie!
CUTLER: ... which he is -- yes?
COSBY: Let me get this straight. The guy basically walks free. My understanding -- he can even leave the state. There`s no electronic monitoring on this guy. What -- what -- you have -- it is insane! There is no monitoring on this guy. He`s convicted of rape. He`s facing 21 more charges. And there`s not even an electronic monitoring bracelet on him or something?
CUTLER: Right. He`s facing 20 felony child abuse sex charges here in Utah. From what I heard in court, there was no talk of any kind of monitoring or ankle bracelet or anything like that. I spoke with the prosecutor. He cannot confirm whether or not the family has a plane ticket for him to go back to Washington. The family also did not speak with me once this hearing was over. So I`m hearing that he will either be staying with family here in Utah, which he`ll be back in Utah court in six months, if not sooner, or possibly being sent to Washington state...
COSBY: Wa-wa-wait!
CUTLER: ... where, again, he is convicted...
COSBY: Six months?
CUTLER: ... of that sex charge.
COSBY: Six months?
CUTLER: Right.
COSBY: He`s going to be free for six months, maybe can go to Disneyland. Why doesn`t he have a nice little sunny vacation somewhere!
CUTLER: Yes, well, who knows what he`s going to do, but the judge made it clear that he needs to be available to the Utah court in six months for his motion to be reevaluating his competency and this criminal case in court. That`s on November 17th. At that point, the judge will have had him be re-evaluated by two new psychologists. So you know, it`s at that point they`ll determine whether or not he`ll be competent to stand trial again in six months.
COSBY: Let`s go to the attorneys. Let`s go to Peter Odom, if we could, also Alex Sanchez, defense attorneys. Alex, how are you going to justify this monster walking free any minute?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Rita, you keep using the term "legal loophole." You know, what legal loophole? This is the law. The judge is following the law.
COSBY: Yes, the law stinks!
SANCHEZ: There`s nothing improper about that.
COSBY: The law stinks! And you know what? Let me just tell you something. I will tell you there is some issue here that I have. I do think this judge may have had some chance here to maybe put him behind bars because we`ve been hearing that all the psychiatrists decided that this guy was not competent. Guess what? I have right here a document from one of the psychiatrists, who says this guy was competent.
SANCHEZ: Right. But in our...
COSBY: And he was a guy who evaluated him for three years.
SANCHEZ: Yes, but in our system of justice, a judge is the one that makes the ultimate determination. And he took testimony from those psychiatrists, and I`m sure that judge evaluated their testimony and their professional opinion very carefully. He came to the conclusion the guy is incompetent. What`s wrong with that?
COSBY: Wait a minute! How is he incompetent? Alex Sanchez, the guy has attendants (ph) three hours a day right here. He runs a canteen. In fact, by the way, the other day, according to this document from this psychiatrist -- this was filed just yesterday -- he did a great job teaching himself, reading the manual of how to do -- use different wood- burning tools.
SANCHEZ: Well, then if the judge...
COSBY: That`s pretty competent!
SANCHEZ: Well, you know what? If the judge had heard this information, then maybe he should have ruled differently. But apparently...
COSBY: Yes, maybe he absolutely should have...
SANCHEZ: Unless you`re suggesting...
COSBY: ... ruled differently!
SANCHEZ: Unless you`re suggesting the judge is engaged in some, you know, horrific judicial behavior -- I`m sure he is not -- he ruled that the defendant was incompetent. That was the only justifiable ruling he could have come to. I doubt...
COSBY: Questionable!
SANCHEZ: ... if he intentionally knew that...
COSBY: Questionable!
SANCHEZ: ... he was incompetent.
COSBY: Questionable. Questionable if it was -- if you looked at this psychiatrist, this guy who`s been evaluating him three years -- Peter Odom, how do you explain this?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, everybody here followed the law. Your outrage is completely misdirected.
COSBY: Yes, the law stinks!
ODOM: Your outrage...
COSBY: The law stinks!
ODOM: ... needs to be directed at the legislature in Utah, not at this man.
COSBY: You know what my outrage is also?
ODOM: The judge followed the law.
COSBY: Peter? Peter, the outrage is his family`s cheering today. Shame on everybody! Winking, cheering. It`s sickening! The system is sickening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He won`t look at us. Every now and then, he`ll try to cast a glance at some of the girls. But he was grinning today. In the past, he usually comes in pretty sober, but he was grinning. He knew he was leaving. It`s like he knew he was going home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL O`REILLY, HOST, FOX NEWS "O`REILLY FACTOR": ... horrendous situation in Utah. Thirty-eight-year-old Lonnie Johnson, charged with 21 counts of child sexual abuse, including five counts of rape, deemed incompetent to stand trial. They`re basically going to let him loose. How can they let somebody loose who`s allegedly created these heinous crimes? And he was convicted of other sexual abuse crimes in Oregon, OK, before this.
Can`t let him out. The guy`s a child rapist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And that`s my pal, Bill O`Reilly from Fox News`s "The O`Reilly Factor," taking his view on the shocking case, joining the chorus of outrage like me tonight.
And now word that this man that you`re seeing here, 38-year-old Lonnie Johnson -- well, he is walking free. In fact, we are live right now outside the hospital in Utah. He`s set to be released at any moment. As soon as we get that shot, we will show you. This is a man, again, who was convicted. He pled guilty in 2006 to raping someone. And now he`s also facing 21 counts of raping, sodomizing, sexually aggravating, (SIC) all these variety of counts. Each count could have been life in prison. And yet because of a legal loophole, this man is going to be walking the streets tonight.
Let`s go to our callers. Melody from Ohio, who`s on the line. Melody, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am outraged by this. This actually makes me physically ill. And my question is, when he does commit a crime again, can the judge -- is there a loophole that this judge would be accountable for anything of his actions?
COSBY: That`s a great question. Let`s go to Greg Skordas. He is a former Salt Lake City deputy DA. Greg, is there anything that can happen to the judge or to anyone involved in this process if this guy goes?
And by the way, this guy is a convicted rapist. We know that the recidivism rate is high. These guys often time and time again -- he`s accused of 21 counts of raping an 8-year-old, a 10-year-old girl. These guys normally repeat offend.
So Greg, this guy is going to be walking. Can anyone be held accountable should he strike again?
SKORDAS: Well, he`ll, in fact, be held accountable. But the short answer to your question is judges have immunity. Prosecutors have immunity. He`ll be held accountable. If he does reoffend, then he is no longer going to be found to be someone who is not a threat to himself or others, and he`ll be taken into custody and they`ll deal with him then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Walk free because of a legal loophole!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have been prepared for it. We knew that this was what was going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You guys happy with the judge`s decision?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any reaction?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The truth will come out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A convicted sex predator. He preys on children. Set to get out on a legal loophole?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Taylor followed the law. The state didn`t have any choice otherwise.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Lonnie Johnson is the man`s name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The statute provides that the civil commitment fails and he`s not competent and unlikely to be restored, then we have to release him.
GRACE: There are 21 sex counts against him on children.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Johnson has been deemed incompetent to stand trial.
GRACE: He`s never going to answer up to those?
CHRISTY DANNER, DAUGHTER ALLEGEDLY SEXUALLY ASSAULTED BY SEX OFFENDER LONNIE JOHNSON: So we just wait for more victims and then he uses the same loophole? Is that what we`re being told?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You`d think somebody who`s incompetent would stay in a hospital, right? Wrong.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: And that convicted sex predator is about to be released at any moment. We are live right outside the facility where he is expected to be released. We will take that picture when we see him physically leaving and give you all the latest developments.
Also just a few moments ago, by the way, the Salt Lake City governor, by the way, governor from the area, Gary Herbert, came out with an official statement saying that he is outraged. He`s disgusted. He is disappointed.
There is his statement. He says, "I`m outraged that a convicted child sex offender currently facing another round of accusations." By the way, 21. "Is not going to face justice."
And indeed the governor there in the chorus of those who are just disgusted and shocked that this convicted sex predator is out at any moment walking the streets.
Let`s go to Annie Cutler, the reporter with CNN affiliate KTVX.
Annie, walk us through again what this guy did today and the smiling and the smirking in the courtroom as he learned he`s going to walk free.
ANNIE CUTLER, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE KTVX: Yes, he was certainly -- he and his family were certainly happy with the judge`s ruling. Now we`ve been talking all along that he`s been deemed incompetent to stand trial. But from what I saw it looks like he was competent enough to realize every time the still photographer`s lens was up and pointing his direction because every time he saw that camera lens his way he looked right down into his hands and his lap. He knew exactly what was going on.
COSBY: Annie, that`s interesting. I know you`re not a psychiatrist. I know you`re not an expert. From just a layman`s standpoint, this guy seemed like he was aware of what`s going on. This is not some loony-tune, he doesn`t understand the environment?
CUTLER: No. To me it seemed like he was able to make contact. It seemed to me like he knew what he was in court for. And again, you know, both times I`ve seen him sitting in court, he would look down or look away from the camera lens every time he saw it pointing his way.
I was talking about that with fellow reporters in the Salt Lake market, and we were all sort of humming and (INAUDIBLE) saying the same thing.
COSBY: Well, by the way, we`re showing his picture, everybody. And I hope everybody gets a good look at this, because this guy may be in your community.
We`re told that there is no restriction at this point that he can even leave the state of Utah, so who knows where this guy is going to go.
Let`s go to Bethany Marshall, if we could, psychoanalyst. She`s also the author of "Dealbreakers."
You know, Bethany, tell us about the recidivism of these guys who rape, who molest young girls, like this man did. This man is accused right now. He has charges against him. But in terms of the other one, he plead guilty in 2006.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": We can see the recidivism which is almost 100 percent in his behavior in the courtroom. His offending pattern started right away when he was winking at the girls, avoiding the parents` eye contact, leering, jeering, that is his offense pattern to have power over victims.
And in terms of this incompetence to stand trial, he was competent enough to get married, to gain proximity to victims. He was competent enough to molest two girls for five years, hide it from their parents, which is an act of self-defense.
Incompetence to stand trial means that he cannot participate in his own defense and he does not know right from wrong. The fact that he hid the abuse means he knows right from wrong. The fact that he hid --
COSBY: And by the way -- by the way, Bethany, one thing he`s not hiding is his emotions today.
I got ask you, when I heard that he was winking, he is smiling in court, and his family is cheering, what do you make of that from a psychotherapist -- from a psychoanalyst standpoint? I mean this is outrageous behavior.
MARSHALL: Well, not only is this family extremely dysfunctional and pathological, but there`s a very anti-social sociopathic stance in the whole family. And in a sense, there`s an offending attitude within the family.
I`m not saying that the parents and the grandparents are offenders, but they have the mindset of the offender, so given that they had this child who is severely disturbed.
COSBY: And what about him? Bethany, what about him winking and smiling at the crowd in the court today? This is a man who`s convicted of rape. He plead guilty and he`s facing 21 charges. His poor victims are out there. They get no justice. And he`s winking?
MARSHALL: Well, what it tells me is that he`s actually maybe even getting sexually aroused, excited, a sense of self-importance that the victims are there and that they are going to be helpless. He`s going to be let out and there`s nothing that they can do about it.
This is his moment of ultimate power and control. And he knows that the offending can start as soon as he wants it to. That`s what the winking and the leering is.
It`s not just because he has his freedom, Rita. It`s because he has access to children.
COSBY: Yes, and sadly -- and sadly, you know, Bethany, from what I understand at this point, he may have access again. It doesn`t sound like there`s a lot of restrictions on this guy.
MARSHALL: That`s right.
COSBY: Shame on this whole system.
Let`s go to Jim Kirkwood, talk show host. He is with KTKK Radio.
Jim, I want you to walk through for all the folks at home because I read the complaint against this guy. I read what the accusations are, 21 counts. Rape, sodomy, sexual assault, starting with a child. One, what, 8 years old, the other one 10. It is -- it is horrific. And I want you to walk through to our viewers tonight what this man is accused of.
JIM KIRKWOOD, TALK SHOW HOST, KTKK RADIO: He is accused of child rape, child sexual abuse, just -- as you say, the 21 charges, just to read them, Rita, it makes you sick.
COSBY: It makes you just -- it is disgusting. Why don`t you take us through? One of them was his stepdaughter. Let`s tell what this nice wonderful man did, what he`s accused of by his stepdaughter.
KIRKWOOD: Well, he sexually abused, fondled. Apparently there was some penetration. I`m not certain where. There were some apparently sex toys in the one charge. The charge number 21. Not certain to what extent the -- the charging sheet is very brief but as you`ve read it and I`ve read it, it`s specific enough.
I mean, this was fondling. This was -- this was rape. Not just because she was young, but literally rape.
COSBY: And by the way, she came afford, my understanding is, because of word about this other case and then as a result of her case, the niece comes forward.
KIRKWOOD: Yes, one of the children, and the mother would be able to tell us which one, went to her mother and then that mother contacted the other mother and the truth came out.
The other child didn`t want to talk because he had threatened the children that if their fathers found out, they would kill him and then they would be in prison. I mean, this guy -- this guy is tricky.
COSBY: Yes, sick. Sick. And meanwhile, they say he`s not competent.
KIRKWOOD: Yes.
COSBY: This sound like a man who`s crazy like a fox.
Let`s go back, if we could, to Christy Danner. She was in court today. She`s the mother of one of these alleged victims that you were just hearing about from Jim Kirkwood.
You know, it breaks my heart, Christy, when I hear this. Tell us if you could, briefly, what happened to your daughter and how crazy and sick this man is.
DANNER: Well, just like you were hearing, it started at the age of 8 for her. And that was what he used to tell her all the time was, if you tell your father, he`ll kill me and he`ll end up in prison and you`ll never see him again. And she was living with her father at the time. And those two have such a strong connection. It messed with her head. You know, this 8-year-old thinking that she may lose her father, her best friend. And that`s how he kept her quiet.
COSBY: And Christy, what did he do to your beautiful 8-year-old daughter?
DANNER: She hasn`t talked a lot of specifics to me about it. She`s been through some counseling. Fondling, a lot of touching, having -- my understanding is having her touch him. Just really -- those yucky things that you just -- she hasn`t really wanted to tell me about.
COSBY: You know, Christy, as we see these pictures here now, and I see this guy`s face and this man walking free because the judge is letting him out. And again, this could happen at any moment. We`re expecting it to happen during this show.
What do you want to say to people watching tonight to be on the lookout for this guy?
DANNER: Well, that`s it. Be on the lookout because his family, they think he is innocent. They think that -- or they are hiding it well. I don`t know what. But they`re not going to be watching him.
COSBY: And again, everybody, a legal loophole is the reason in Utah state law. They said, by the way, it looks like rape. Doesn`t cause bodily harm. That`s what Utah state law says. We`re going to talk about that and a lot more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve got a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Lonnie Tyrone Johnson --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A convicted sex offender.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is an obvious danger to society.
GRACE: Facing 21 counts of child rape.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Johnson has been deemed incompetent to stand trial.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Will not stand trial on the charges.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Free man. Wow.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A judge officially said to Lonnie Johnson, a convicted sex offender, you are a free man.
DANNER: I`m angry. I`m angry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of all the mental disorders, one of the most incurable is pedophilia.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Doctors say Lonnie Johnson does not pose a risk to society.
DANNER: He is dangerous. Period. End of discussion.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He`s convicted of raping a girl in Washington state in 2006.
DANNER: I`m just worried about how many more victims.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you go from competent enough in `06 to face a trial and turn incompetent in the past few years?
DANNER: The traits will come out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are not civilized enough to stand trial. You are not civilized enough to walk free in society.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And breaking news tonight. You`re looking at a live picture there of a Utah mental hospital where at any moment 38-year-old Lonnie Johnson will walk free. A judge has released him on a legal loophole.
This is a guy who is convicted of raping a woman. This was back in 2006. And he is facing 21 counts involving a child 8 years old. As young as 8. It continued for many years. And also a 10-year-old.
In fact, as we look at this guy, I want to walk through a little bit about what the claims are against. One of them was his stepdaughter. At the age of 10 apparently he was touching her, then performed oral sex on her and then there`s allegations of sexual intercourse.
The other one was his niece who apparently at the age of 8, the allegations say that he began touching her. She woke up and saw his head between her legs. Disgusting, outrageous, repeated behavior, and tonight, this man is walking free.
And I got to tell you why. Because a Utah statute, and this is shocking, they basically say that rape, even of a child, is not bodily harm. Even a bodily harm standard under Utah says bodily injury which involves a substantial risk of death, unconsciousness, extreme physical pain, protracted and obvious disfigurement or protracted loss or impairment of a bodily function.
A member, an organ or mental faculty. That`s what they call serious bodily harm, an injury in the state of Utah. But they`re saying guess what? If you rape a child it doesn`t fit this? It doesn`t fit physical pain? I don`t get it.
Let`s go to Dr. Susan Evans, a doctor of internal medicine.
Dr. Evans, how do you say that a young child who is raped, and we`re talking 8, we`re talking 10 years old, these are the allegations that this doesn`t -- this doesn`t fit bodily harm?
DR. SUSAN EVANS, INTERNAL MEDICINE: This whole story is deeply disturbing and ridiculous. Bodily harm --
COSBY: It`s shameful. It`s shameful.
EVANS: -- is definitely a part of this. It really is, Rita. Because one of the cardinal things that you look for with your child is, are they having pain in the genital area, around the mouth area, also in the anal area or discharge.
COSBY: And Susan -- and Susan, I`ve got to ask you --
EVANS: These are physical bodily harm.
COSBY: From a medical standpoint, you`re telling me that an 8 and a 10-year-old girl that this doesn`t hurt to get raped by a man?
EVANS: Absolutely. There are all sort of physical manifestations, emotional, psychological that is really damaging this child and their body. And I can`t believe that he did this operating as a stepfather, as an uncle. This is deplorable, and this man should not be let loose.
COSBY: You`re right. He was in a position of trust. And these allegations again. Guess what? He just has to show up the new standard now. He`s showing up in November. And then there`ll be another hearing. And this guy may be walking in your community.
Everybody, get a good look at him because he is a registered sex offender because he plead guilty in 2006 already to raping someone. He was facing 21 counts. And he sadly may be in your community.
Let`s go to the callers. Let`s go to Jennifer from New Jersey who is on the line.
Jennifer, what`s your question?
JENNIFER, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Yes, I would like to know, as a sexual predator, when he is released into this new community, are they going to be aware they have a sexual predator in their area?
COSBY: That`s a great question.
Let`s go to Annie Cutler, who`s the CNN affiliate reporter with KTVX.
Annie, what are the standards when this guy gets out? What`s the rules in Utah?
CUTLER: Well, I mean, the rules in Utah at this point for this case, it doesn`t seem like he`s going to be monitored or tracked very heavily. I spoke with his family members and he`s either going to be staying here in Utah with family or the possibility that they might send him to Washington.
I mean, I`ve heard that his family has a plane ticket for him to go back to Washington. They wouldn`t comment on that to me today. So at this point, you know, we talked about this whole hour, there`s no sort of tracking device that the judge has ordered that he be on or anything like that.
COSBY: Wait, wait, wait, Annie. Annie, no tracking device, walks out of state, and I said this before, why don`t we just send him on a nice little vacation? Why don`t we --
CUTLER: Yes.
COSBY: Let`s have daiquiris in the Bahamas with this guy.
CUTLER: Yes. I mean that could be the case. You know I firmly don`t know what the family plans are for him. I know that when he was ruled to be released today, the judge did make it clear that he needed to make himself available to the Provo courts in six months in November when they reconvene. And the judge looks at his re-evaluation in terms of his competency levels to potentially stand trial as well as re-examining this criminal case.
I want to make it clear that this criminal case has not been dismissed. The charges are still pending against Johnson, and the future of this will rely on what two new doctors assigned to him will deem when they re-evaluate him and this case reconvenes in six months if not sooner.
COSBY: Yes, and in the meantime, the guy is walking free. He`s going to get out at any moment.
And again, everybody, we are waiting live. This guy is going to walk out. And we would love to have a picture so everybody sees this man who is convicted of rape. And we will show that to you when he`s getting out. We expect it to happen at any moment.
Let`s go, if we could, to Laura Dunn. She is a rape victim herself. Not related to this case with Lonnie Johnson.
But you yourself know the traumas and the effect that rape and to hear in Utah it`s not considered bodily harm, I mean, this is just a shocking statute that`s on the books and shame on the state law and whoever passed this. I mean this is just outrageous.
What do you want to say about the actions of a man like this who is about to get out at any moment, Laura?
LAURA DUNN, RAPE VICTIM: I mean, I think it`s pretty clear his actions are absolutely reprehensible. I mean he`s already a convicted sex offender. And I am inclined to believe these young woman that have come forward. A lot of victims wait a long time to report their crimes. And a lot of them, especially when they`re children, just don`t know what else to do. And so having seen him convicted before they decided to speak op.
And I hope they get justice. Very few victims ever raise their voice and identify themselves. And to have this happen just discourages them further.
COSBY: And you know, Laura, to hear this man was clapping, he was winking in court and yet he`s not competent? What`s your reaction to that as a victim of rape?
DUNN: I think that`s absolutely ridiculous. This man is clearly a predator. And I hope justice will be served.
COSBY: I do, too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANNER: We`re not happy, but we`ve just begun to fight. I mean, they haven`t dropped the charges. He`ll be back. We`re not going to let this die. We`re not going to lay down and we`re not going to go away as much as him and his family would like that to happen. And I think the truth will come out.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A convicted sex offender is now a free man.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Johnson was charged 21 counts of sexual abuse.
DANNER: I`m angry. I have to turn any hurt or any feelings or anger so that I can keep fighting to change this law. Because we may have lost this battle today, but we have got to win the war in changing this law.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And that law definitely needs to be changed because this man that you`re seeing here, 38-year-old Lonnie Johnson is now being released. He is set to walk free at any moment and we are still live outside the facility in Utah where he is expected to get out.
By the way, just a few hours ago he was winking, he was smiling in court. But yet he`s not competent to stand trial? That`s why they let him go because of this legal loophole? And yet also, his parents, guess what mom was doing? Clapping. Isn`t it great? My convicted sex predator son is out. Isn`t that wonderful?
Let`s go to the callers if we could. Let`s go to Donna from Pennsylvania who`s on the line.
Donna, I am just -- I am so baffled and disgusted at this law. What do you think?
DONNA, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Well, I`ll tell you what. It`s just terrible. And it`s -- it`s disgusting, like most of the people think. I`d like to say god bless to all of you. And I would like to know if the governor is so appalled by this judge`s decision, can he override the judge`s decision?
COSBY: Let me go really quickly. Annie Cutler, is there anything the governor can do to intervene?
CUTLER: Well, I mean, the governor has certainly expressed the fact that he is, again, disgusted by this. Do want to make it clear that a lot of people have been calling Judge Taylor in regards to this case. And the prosecutor has said to me earlier today, both judges involved in this case have been upholding the constitution. Their hands were bound to a certain level.
COSBY: And Annie, by the way, you know what people should do, they should call their state legislators, not just in Utah.
CUTLER: Absolutely.
COSBY: To make sure that this law is changed but in states all around the country to make sure that this law is not in their state that a sex offender, somebody like this is not walking in their state. It`s just -- it is shocking and it is disgusting.
And everybody, we are going to be watching this very, very closely.
And tonight, everybody, let`s stop if we could first to remember Marine Corporal Richard Waller, 22 years old from Ft Worth, Texas. He was awarded the Purple Heart, National Defense Service Medal and Iraq Campaign Medal.
He loved football, soccer, and going to the beach. Fellow Marines nicknamed him Motto for motivating everyone and keeping spirits high. He leaves behind parents Richard and also Vicki. Three sisters. One brother. And his widow, Adrianne. Children Nicholas and Victoria and Tyler.
Richard Waller, a true American hero.
Everyone, I want to thank all of our guests and to you especially at home for being with us tonight. We`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern time. Until then, everybody, have a great evening. It was great being with you.
END
