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Nancy Grace

Casey Anthony: Countdown to Trial

Aired April 28, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: All you have is speculation.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Hair samples don`t mean anything.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I got within three feet of my daughter`s car. The worst odor that you could possibly smell.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for what, 12 days, in the back of the car.

CASEY ANTHONY: I got arrested on a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) whim today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were plants growing up through the small skeleton, and bug evidence was also recovered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony was on line Googling how to make chloroform.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Belvin Perry going to allow chloroform evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey`s saying this is admissible evidence.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m scared, and I know I`m running out of options.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You believe there really was someone named Zanny?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s very possible that your granddaughter was never with Zanny.

CINDY ANTHONY: I can`t speculate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a possibility that they won`t be allowed to sit in the courtroom until after they testify.

CASEY ANTHONY: Completely and utterly miserable!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, the trial judge rules chloroform found in tot mom`s car trunk will come into evidence, along with home computer searches for homemade chloroform, fatal accidents in the home, how to make weapons from household items, and even a computer search on how to give the knockout drug chloroform a sweet taste and smell to its victim -- i.e., 2-year-old Caylee. The jury will hear it all.

This as we learn grandparents George and Cindy want the judge to override the law and allow them in the courtroom to hear other witnesses on the stand before they take the stand themselves. Battle brewing as to whether the jury will hear about human decomposition and air samples in tot mom`s trunk. In fact, even at the scientists` lab one expert jumps back when the box of air from tot mom`s trunk was opened. Also, the judge spotted in another courthouse. Is tot mom`s trial headed 145 miles away to Palm Beach?

And tonight, icing on the cake, evidence that cadaver dogs hit on little Caylee`s play area there in the back yard and in tot mom`s car trunk comes in. This as we learn one medical examiner says once the jury sees the photos of 2-year-old Caylee`s remains, that jury will hand down a death sentence. And tonight, there`s a legal showdown over plants, plants growing around the 2-year-old girl`s remains, including weeds growing up between and into Caylee`s tiny, tiny skeleton.

The countdown to trial begins now. We are taking your calls. I want to go straight out to Robyn Walensky, reporter, WDBO. Robyn, a lot of major rulings from the judge have been handed down. What can you tell me?

ROBYN WALENSKY, WDBO RADIO: Well, Nancy, major is an understatement. The judge -- it`s a huge blow to the defense. Here`s why. The chloroform evidence is going to be allowed at trial. The prosecution is going to put on Dr. Voss, who is a scientist. He is an expert. And he`s going to testify, Nancy, that the levels of chloroform in that trunk were 10,000 -- that`s 10,000 -- times what would normally be there if there was a decomposing body.

GRACE: Ten thousand times what is normal? Also, I want to talk about those home computer searches. What can you tell me about that, Robyn?

WALENSKY: Well, see, that`s the thing. You have to connect the dots in this case. So you`re hearing about levels that are 10,000 times what would normally be there. That connects us to the evidence that`s in the house, the computer in the Anthony home.

Now, the scientists and the experts there looked through that computer and they found two key searches. Someone in that house was searching on how to make chloroform, and they were also searching on how to break necks. This is extremely damning testimony, and when you connect that to what was going on in the trunk, there`s definitely -- you can play connect the dots.

GRACE: Joining us tonight is distinguished professor of forensic evidence, University of New Haven, former consultant to the Anthony defense team, Dr. Henry Lee. He is world-renowned. Dr. Lee, thank you for being with us. This is quite a blow to the defense, the fact that the chloroform evidence is likely to come in, as well as those home computer searches.

HENRY LEE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, FMR. ANTHONY DEFENSE CONSULTANT: Yes. Nancy, you are absolute correct. Between the chloroform found in the trunk and the computer search for chloroform, of course, you know, this suggests to the jury these two things related. Searching for make chloroform, found (ph) the chloroform. Of course, founding (ph) in the chloroform, not necessary that`s a homicide.

In addition, is say 10,000 times more than the usual. What this means, it`s in the common, you know, ordinary ambient air have a very low level of chloroform, and her trunk have a very high level of chloroform. Except there are two bag of garbage in the trunk, and I would suggest, you know, the prosecution better look at each piece of item. And the defense same thing, look at each piece of...

GRACE: Right.

LEE: ... item in that two...

GRACE: You know what?

LEE: ... garbage can (ph), whether or not have...

GRACE: Dr. Lee...

LEE: ... a bottle (ph) of material have chloroform.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, look...

LEE: Yes?

GRACE: Dr. Lee...

LEE: Yes?

GRACE: ... look, you got me over a barrel when it comes to scientific evidence. But when you say that a level of chloroform 10,000 times that to be expected what`s found in tot mom`s trunk doesn`t prove there`s a murder...

You know what? Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of Seattle, high-profile lawyer Anne Bremner. Out of Atlanta, criminal defense attorney Peter Odom.

Anne Bremner, don`t just take the party line with me, OK?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK.

GRACE: Let`s just be straight.

BREMNER: OK.

GRACE: You`ve got 10,000 times the amount of chloroform expected to be found in the trunk, in tot mom`s trunk. You`ve got the guy. He is the foremost expert in the world on human decomposition science. That would be Arpad Voss.

BREMNER: Right.

GRACE: And when he opened the box of air from tot mom`s trunk, he jumped back, the stench was so horrific. Now, Dr. Henry Lee, who was a consultant to the defense, he also is renowned in his field.

BREMNER: He is.

GRACE: That doesn`t prove murder. Hello? When you combine that with the computer searches for chloroform, how to make homemade chloroform, a Web site called Chloroformhabit about how it can be a sweet smell and taste and sensation to the victim to get knocked out, along with how to break necks, how to use household items to create weapons -- when all that comes in -- actually, that`s not all that. That`s just three different pieces of evidence. That goes to murder. This is a bombshell ruling by the judge!

BREMNER: You know, I would -- Nancy, I`m totally with Dr. Lee on this. And he`s fantastic and renowned, as you stated. And the thing is, though, does it prove murder? I mean, what if she wanted to knock somebody out? What if she just wanted to make it and put it in her trunk?

GRACE: What -- what -- please put her up!

BREMNER: There`s garbage in the trunk...

GRACE: Wait! Wait! Wait!

BREMNER: There`s garbage in the trunk...

GRACE: Stop!

BREMNER: ... all of those things...

GRACE: Anne, Anne, look, I respect you and I like you very, very much. But you just said -- you just said -- and notice Peter Odom`s not even shaking his head yes like he normally does. He`s, like, Whoa! You just said, Maybe she wanted to knock somebody out.

BREMNER: I`m saying, in general...

GRACE: Maybe she wanted to just put chloroform in her car trunk. Anne, get a hold of yourself! That doesn`t even make sense!

BREMNER: No, but -- no, I`m just saying -- listen -- listen this way. Like Dr. Lee said, it doesn`t prove murder. There`s garbage in the trunk. It doesn`t prove anything. And I`m just saying...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What does that mean to me, there`s garbage in the trunk? I mean...

BREMNER: There`s other things...

GRACE: ... it can turn into chloroform?

BREMNER: No, but the fact of the matter is, is this doesn`t prove murder, period. It doesn`t prove murder at all.

GRACE: OK.

BREMNER: And we don`t know, if it`s in there, who put it there. And -- and also...

GRACE: You know what? I`m actually proud of you, Anne.

BREMNER: You are?

GRACE: I`m proud of you because if you had said anything less, I would have been disappointed. OK, Peter Odom, you are a former prosecutor. You know the deal. What do you make of it?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s very damning evidence. I think it all suggests the presence of chloroform. I hope that that`s not too big a bombshell. I think the defense would be -- I think...

GRACE: Peter, it doesn`t suggest it, it proves it.

ODOM: All right, Nancy. Let`s say I agree with you on that. I think the defense would be foolish to try and deny that there was chloroform there. What it does leave open, though, is the question of identity. They have to prove who was searching for chloroform on the Internet, and they have to prove who it was...

GRACE: OK.

ODOM: ... that put the chloroform in the trunk. That`s where...

GRACE: You`re right.

ODOM: ... the defense should be going.

GRACE: You know what? You`re absolutely right on that. If the computer search is going to come in, as the judge has ruled, about how to make weapons out of homemade items, who to make homemade chloroform, could they attack who was doing the searches?

To you, Natisha Lance. There were searches on the 17th and the 21st. What was -- who was home on the 17th?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: On the 17th, George Anthony was not working, so it is a possibility that he was in the home. But it`s also a possibility, which the judge pointed out, that Casey Anthony was in the home, which is why he is allowing this to come into trial.

GRACE: OK. Now, my question was, who could have been home on the 17th? Now, who could have been home for the second round of computer searches on the 21st?

LANCE: George and Cindy Anthony were both at work. Casey Anthony could have been at home, and Lee Anthony also could have been in the home.

GRACE: I couldn`t hear what you said about Lee. Repeat?

LANCE: Lee Anthony also could have been in the home, as well as Casey, but George and Cindy both at work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s just obscene, everything that`s going on out there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s obscene?

CASEY ANTHONY: The stuff that people are saying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The duct tape over the face, the sticker over the mouth.

CASEY ANTHONY: They`re twisting stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was researching the making of chloroform.

CASEY ANTHONY: Everything`s out of my control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utility emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It had been wrapped in duct tape.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On that duct tape, residue in the perfect shape of a heart.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that she did it on purpose.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They plan on piecing together inconsistencies from interviews she gave police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She is the last person that I`d seen with my daughter, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As well as presenting evidence from Anthony`s car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says it found, quote, "an unusually large concentration of chloroform" in the carpet sample from Casey`s trunk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also found in that trunk, a hair which showed signs of decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony, your time may be up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. First of all, out to Sylvia in North Carolina. Hi, Sylvia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is this. Do you remember back when she first got arrested...

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and she wanted her lawyer to get her out where she could look for Caylee by herself without no cameras or police? And now I feel like -- do you feel like this, that she wanted -- only reason she wanted that, so she could go in back in the woods and move the body where nobody could find Caylee?

GRACE: Sylvia in North Carolina, I believe that Caylee`s body was in her car trunk for a period of days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes.

GRACE: I think that she moved the body prior to being put behind bars. I don`t think she ever had a chance to go back and move anything. I think that she had buried Caylee there in her resting spot before she ever went behind bars to start with. But I do agree with you. I think she did not want to get out of jail to go search for Caylee. She did want to get out of jail to try to get rid of some evidence.

But we have with us tonight someone who would know. Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, is the one that bailed her out of jail on that first charge, I believe it was forgeries or bad checks. During that time, he and his staff had the opportunity to observe her.

Leonard Padilla, remember when you first bailed her out from behind bars, it was all about her searching for Caylee?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: When we got involved in this situation, it was because, Get me out of here so I can go find my daughter, get me out of here, I`ll find my baby. And we went for it and got her out. But she never one time, not one word directed towards, Let`s go find my child, or anything. Never brought it up. Never said a word about it.

And the other thing is, let me give you a timeline here and see if the young lady out of North Carolina agrees with it. She went back to the house on the 18th because at that time is when she bagged -- triple-bagged -- I say double-bagged, but Nancy hit it right on the nail on the head. It was triple-bagged.

But anyhow, if she killed that child in the wee hours of the 16th, 2.6 days of decomposition, and then she bags the child on the 18th, George goes to the rear of the trunk in order to see about gas cans, she slams the trunk, drives around the corner, dumps the body, doesn`t dig a hole or anything.

She tried that in the back yard on the 18th. The dirt back there was too hard. That`s why you get hits from the cadaver dogs. The other thing is that hasn`t been brought up and probably less than a handful of people are aware, there was turpins (ph) in the trunk of the car. You only get turpins when you drive down into the brush, open the trunk, and the little stuff flies around from the bushes. You don`t get that driving up and down the freeways. And there`s no other time during the period of the 15th through when they found the car that she was ever in off the road or anything like that. Even the one time when she said she had a flat tire, she was not off the road into the brush.

You have to be into the brush in order to get the turpins into the trunk of the car, and that has not been brought up either by the defense or the prosecution.

GRACE: Did you say that at no time she discussed with you or your staff going to search for Caylee?

PADILLA: Not one time. She was with Tracy (ph) 24/7 in that house. Rob and Tracy drove her to and from the attorneys. Never did she mention it to me or Rob or Tracy. Not one time did she say, Let`s do something. Now, Tim Miller has on several occasions mentioned that when he was there, she looked at a map and pointed to it. Never happened.

GRACE: Joining us right now in response to what Leonard Padilla has just said, Loran Anderson. He is professor emeritus at Florida State University, a forensic botanist. He is at the top of his field.

Mr. Anderson, thank you for being with us. I guess I should say Dr. Anderson. What do you believe about the plants growing around and up through the tiny skeleton of little Caylee? What does that prove? Leonard was just talking about the growth and the bugs that could have gotten into the trunk from the actual burial site.

LORAN ANDERSON, FORENSIC BOTANIST (via telephone): The body had to be in place for a while for the plants to grow up. A good botanist would be able to tell roughly how long the body had been in place by the nature of the plants that were associated with the skeleton.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: The investigation says there is evidence of traces of chloroform in the car of Caylee Anthony`s mother.

GEORGE ANTHONY: It was an overpowering smell, I`ll admit that.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence that has been returned to us regarding the vehicle. Preliminary information indicates that there is decomposition in that vehicle from a human body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Helen in Washington state. Hi, Helen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my question is, they`re saying that the car -- that when they found the car, they didn`t have that -- it didn`t have that smell, right?

GRACE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But then when the mother called, she said that it smelled like a dead person. And then the father, him being a police officer, ex-police officer, he said the same thing, that it smelled like a dead body. So why would they say that? And then another...

GRACE: OK, hold on, Helen. Hold on. You said it did not have a smell in it when?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they took it from the lot.

GRACE: No. No, no. Hold on, Helen in Washington state. It did have the smell in it when they took it from the tow lot. Remember -- and correct me if I`m wrong -- let me go out to David Lohr, senior crime reporter with HuffingtonPost. David -- and Liz, hold onto Helen in Washington state.

David, as I recall it, tot mom said there was something wrong with her car or she had run out of gas and had left it. But it got towed from Amscot. It`s a car rental or a check cashing place down in Florida. It was there in the parking lot. And it was towed. And the tow operator actually said that he had never smelled a car that smelled like tot mom`s car, except one car where someone had committed suicide in the car. So as I recall the evidence, it did smell of a dead body when it was towed from that Amscot parking lot.

DAVID LOHR, HUFFINGTONPOST.COM: Yes. That`s correct, Nancy. And if you remember, back when Casey`s mom was talking to one of her friends about it, she said up until the point when they got the trunk open, they were actually afraid that they might find Caylee or Casey`s body in the trunk, it smelled so bad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

I saw rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

Hair samples don`t mean anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I`m thinking about the night that my wife made that phone call.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK --

CINDY ANTHONY: Send someone here now.

G. ANTHONY: Think about wanting to turn your own child in for whatever it might be.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart.

G. ANTHONY: It`s tough. You know stuff started to come out. It`s just the way it is. I`m not going to hold back.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I just wanted to let everyone know --

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s certain things that we do know.

G. ANTHONY: Just know I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. Trust me.

CINDY ANTHONY: There are certain things that the family can`t say.

G. ANTHONY: You guys don`t know.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s unexplainable.

CINDY ANTHONY: There are certain things that Casey knows.

G. ANTHONY: I have no idea.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know what the hell is going on.

G. ANTHONY: I`ve no knowledge of that day.

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: To the same thing that has always been so please stop it.

CINDY ANTHONY: I have bits and pieces of stuff that continues to come back to me in my memory.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know certain things.

CINDY ANTHONY: If I did, obviously, I was wrong.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And today, major rulings in just the last hours regarding the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony. In addition to the chloroform evidence, the home computer searches for how to make weapons out of household items, how to make chloroform, how to make a sticky sweet sensation for the victim of chloroform.

Also, the judge has ruled in all of the plant evidence. Evidence that according to the state shows when Caylee`s body was dumped there just 15 houses from her own home. They can tell that by the nature of the plants, how much they have grown, as compared to -- underneath her body as compared to the plants around her body and the condition they are in.

This is a highly specialized field of botany. Also we learned the judge in the last hours and I have the motion we`ve just gotten it off our fax, the judge has denied the defense ruling -- the defense`s request to exclude the stain in tot mom`s trunk.

Let`s see a shot of that, Liz.

Many experts believe that there is a stain caused by human decomposition that looks like the outline, the silhouette of a child in a fetal position. Now, of course, the defense is going to have the opportunity to cross-examine the experts that testify to this. To try to tear them down. But the evidence is coming in.

And unleash the lawyers. Anne Bremner, high profile lawyer out of Seattle. Peter Odom, former prosecutor turned defense attorney in Atlanta.

This is the judge`s reasoning. Let me throw this to you, Peter Odom. He says -- and this is what he applied to evidence regarding the heart- shaped sticker placed on the duct tape around Caylee`s little mouth.

You`re seeing video of Caylee right now. It`s very hard to reconcile talking about her remains with the video that I`m seeing at this moment.

Because with the heart-shaped sticker, Peter, the scientist saw the residue from the sticker. You know, a kid`s sticker? They love stickers. But in the test -- and it was in the shape of a heart. But during the testing, the residue was used up. And the defense wanted to rule it out because I mean, it was -- it was no longer in existence to show it to the jury.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: The significance is that what random killer would have placed a heart-shaped sticker over the duct tape and also there are matching stickers in the Anthony home. Do you see what I`m showing the viewers right now?

ODOM: I do.

GRACE: So long story short, the judge`s reasoning was when a witness sees something like a getaway car and it`s red just because you don`t have that getaway car to bring it to the jury doesn`t mean the witness can`t testify to what they saw. He also likened it to a weapon used in a crime.

Just because you don`t have the weapon, you couldn`t find the weapon, doesn`t mean the eyewitness can`t testify to what they saw. So that is the judge`s ruling when it comes to the sticky residue on the heart-shaped sticker.

ODOM: And what the judge is going to do is what good judges often do and that is he`s going to let the evidence in and let the jurors give it what weight it deserves.

The defense will still be able to question it. They`ll be able to question the fact that they didn`t have the residue to cross-examine the residue and raise all those questions and it will be up to the jury to decide whether it`s relevant to the crime of murder or not.

GRACE: Exactly, Peter Odom. And another issue for you two is, I`ve been reading all of these briefs and motions. And everything the defense wants to keep out, this is a technical legal issue that I spotted. It may not mean anything to a lot of people. But it means something to me.

He`s using the grounds of irrelevance. Like all of the botanist testimony. It`s highly qualified, renowned botanist talking about plant growth and re-growth. Plant or root growth and what it shows under the body and around the body, comparing the two. And his grounds for excluding that and the stain in the trunk is irrelevance.

The three of us know that when you make an objection on the ground of irrelevance, it doesn`t hold it on appeal. In other words, say she gets convicted, say she gets the death penalty and this goes up on appeal, he`s got to have a stronger objection than irrelevant.

That doesn`t hold the issue for appeal. They`re not going to be able to argue that on appeal because he`s making the wrong motion.

Help me out, people. Go, Anne.

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But the thing is, he`s doing that in addition to other things. You know, the stain in the trunk as we know, Nancy, the methodology and the type of testimony is being admitted for the first time in this trial, a death penalty case.

And I`m sorry. But you don`t want to be the first in any kind of novel kind of science or methodology in a death penalty case. But he`s also making --

GRACE: You know what, Anne?

BREMNER: Yes?

GRACE: You are right.

BREMNER: Thank you.

GRACE: You`re right.

BREMNER: I mean you don`t.

GRACE: No -- I agree with you. It`s like the first time anybody ever brought in fingerprint evidence or DNA evidence.

BREMNER: Right.

GRACE: Everybody was going oh no, oh no, oh no. It`s going to get reversed. It`s going to get -- guess what? It didn`t get reversed.

BREMNER: Well, but you know --

GRACE: And it`s beyond my understanding, Anne, because I`m just a lawyer, but I`ve read it and read it and read it, and it makes perfect sense and when I hear that the air scientist jumped back two feet when he smelled the air, and that was in a box, Anne. It wasn`t even the trunk.

I mean, come on. There was a dead body in there. I don`t need a scientist to tell me that.

BREMNER: We all know that in a death penalty case, you`ve got to dot all the I`s and cross the T`s of the prosecutor. And I simply -- you want to be a lot more careful because it`s going to be an automatic appeal. And they don`t have to be unanimous in Florida to give death. So I`m just saying that`s a good motion for the defense to make and I think that it`s important for the prosecution.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes. It is a good motion. You`re rite about that. But they`ve got to come up with something better than irrelevant as a ground for keeping it suppressed.

Back to Loran Anderson, professor emeritus at Florida State University, a forensic botanist. You know David Hall, the forensic botanist testifying for the prosecution. What do you know about his professional reputation, Loran?

LORAN ANDERSON, PROFESSOR EMERITUS, FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY, FORENSIC BOTANIST, HAS CONSULTED ON CRIMINAL CASE: Well, he got his PhD in 1978 so he`s been practicing botany well over 30 years. And he done extensive work for the University of Florida there in Gainesville in identifying plants from all over the state.

So he`s excellent in plant identification and understands plant growth and could talk about relative maturity of plants, comparing what`s associated with the skeleton and what`s not to determine relative age of the matter.

GRACE: And what he`s going to be testifying to, Loran, is about plant roots and diameters. And he reaches conclusions regarding how long the plants had been growing under her body, translation, how long her dead body had been there. And when I`m saying dead body, I`m talking about a 2-year- old little girl, Caylee Anthony.

It ain`t over yet, people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you opened the can which contained the carpet sample submitted to you, what was your reaction?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First, I jumped back about two feet because the odor was pretty strong.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: FBI lab tests show high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey`s car.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Chloroform could be used to put people to sleep.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Potential cause of death.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can shut down the respiratory system, the brain and then the heart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Information indicates that there is decomposition in that vehicle from a human body.

CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was in the trunk of that car and that she`s dead.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Someone at the Anthony home looked at chloroform on the Web around the time of Caylee`s disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s evidence of searches on a computer. Chloroform in the trunk.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She`s the only one that has access to the computer.

CINDY ANTHONY: Hair samples don`t mean anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it`s not evidence until it comes in court.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Judge Perry is going to allow chloroform evidence into the trial.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Guilty beyond to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The countdown to tot mom`s death penalty murder trial begins now. In the last hours, the judge, the trial judge, in this case, has handed down significant rulings that torpedo the defense. Rulings all the way from allowing chloroform evidence in, where tot mom allegedly was looking up how to make homemade chloroform to knock out her own child, evidence of plants growing up into little Caylee`s skeleton.

Evidence about a stain that resembles a child in the fetal position in tot mom`s trunk. Evidence of chloroform in her trunk.

Also, another major ruling. George and Cindy Anthony doting grandparents to little Caylee, loved Caylee, supported Caylee. They were the ones footing the bill. Caylee was living in their home.

Do not want to be sequestered from the courtroom. In other words, typically under the law, if you`re going to be a witness you may not sit in the courtroom and hear every other witness`s testimony. Why? Because even if you don`t intend for it to shade your testimony, it may. Consciously or subconsciously.

They want the judge to allow them in for the entire trial.

Out to Dr. Bethany Marshal, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers."

You know, I don`t find their request uncommon. They want to be there. Their granddaughter was murdered. Their daughter is on trial for her life and they want to be in the courtroom. However, it does violate the rules of sequestration.

Weigh, in Bethany.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, of course it violate it is rules and what I`m seeing is that as long as Caylee was alive their primary loyalty was to the granddaughter. They were realistic about their daughter. They knew she was a pathological liar, they knew she was not maternally connected to her own child but once Caylee disappeared and it was clear that she was deceased and not coming back, their loyalty shifted to their child.

And that maternal and paternal instinct to protect one`s child at all costs is going to shade what they say in that courtroom. And also to the potential jurors it`s going to tell them that these parents sort of feel arrogant and above the law, and they`re not going to like that too much when the whole story starts to unfold.

GRACE: To the lawyers, Anne Bremner and Peter Odom, just give me a yes/no. I know it`s very hard for a lawyer to do.

To you, Anne Bremner, do you think Cindy and George Anthony are going to be allowed to sit in the trial for all the testimony? Remember, they`re witnesses for the state. And you can`t force the state to call them, say, at the beginning so then they can sit in.

BREMNER: Right.

GRACE: The state is going to call them, I believe, according to an elaborate plan that they have made out. We all do it when we go to trial. We stage our witnesses in the way we need to for the evidence to come in the way we want it to. It`s not just strategic. Sometimes you got to bring them in at a certain order.

For instance, if you want to show George and Cindy Anthony items from the burial scene that match items from their home, you`ve got to have in the crime scene tech first that found the items at the crime scene. Otherwise, you can`t show them to another witness until they`ve been admitted into evidence.

So you can`t force the state to put George and Cindy on first so they can then sit there and listen to the rest of the trial. So what do you think is going to happen, Anne?

BREMNER: They`re not going to be allowed to stay in, no.

GRACE: I don`t understand. What`s your question? I mean, what`s your answer? Are you saying the judge will allow them to come in --

BREMNER: I think the judge won`t -- well, Nancy. You asked for a yes/no. And I thought I did the no. But the judge will not allow them to stay. That`s what I predict.

GRACE: I think you may be right. What about it? What about it, Peter Odom?

ODOM: No, I agree with Anne. The judge would only violate this rule against sequestration for the utmost justification. The grandparents` emotional connection to the defendant and the victim will not be sufficient justification. Their testimony is too important, too much is at stake in this trial. They will be sequestered.

GRACE: Yes. To Dr. Bethany Marshal again, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers."

Dr. Bethany, if in fact tot mom is guilty, which many people believe she is, why is she putting her parents through this?

MARSHALL: You know, that`s going to look bad to the jurors, too. Isn`t it? It shows complete lack of empathy towards them and when you put the totality of evidence -- Dr. Leigh and Anne Bremner were right. They`re thinking like potential jurors.

If it`s just chloroform in the trunk, the jurors are going to say, well, maybe she used the chloroform as a babysitter and that doesn`t prove homicide but when you take the fact that she threw her own parents under the bus, that she put a heart -- that someone put a heart-shaped sticker on this little girl`s duct tape, that someone researched neck breaking, they`re going to think that is one sick mother.

GRACE: Out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "The Profiler," weigh in, Pat. What do you think?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": Well, I agree with Bethany there. I think the judge did a wonderful thing which even if the jurors don`t really understand half of the stuff that the experts throw out they`ve got the information about what happened.

Because we`re looking at a trajectory of a crime, we`re looking at ideation, planning, carrying the crime out, the cover-up and then moving on like going off and dancing. So what we want to see is all of the events and Casey at each one of the intersections of those events, and they can say wait a minute, you know there`s no big hole in here. We can see it all play out. She`s guilty.

GRACE: Also with us tonight, Union County medical examiner Dr. Zhongxue Hua.

Dr. Hua, thank you for being with us. The judge has also ruled in a particular piece of evidence. It is a single hair. The hair is from Caylee Anthony`s head. The 2-year-old. And it has a death band on it which proves that the person from whom the hair was taken or ripped was in fact dead.

What is that? What`s a postmortem root band?

DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, UNION COUNTY, NJ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It`s saying people describe early on mid-`80s from the Japanese to basically means it`s an artifact that generated when the body already die. So by finding this it`s indicating this hair is not a normal shedding process. This hair was shedding away from the body after the body already dead.

GRACE: But what causes the death band or the root band on the hair when someone dies?

HUA: It`s believed to be decomposition process, some of the bacteria can cause certain changes in the root or bottom part of that hair.

GRACE: To Donald Schweitzer, former detective, Santa Ana PD, how did the detectives go about getting that computer evidence or someone in that home was searching how to make homemade chloroform, how to make weapons out of household items, how to break necks.

How do you go about getting that off a computer? When you delete, you never really delete, do you?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: That`s right, Nancy. And the experts now say that everything that you ever type in a computer is always going to be there as well as the sequence. That`s why during this trial, I would be surprised if they can`t without a doubt show that it was Casey because of e-mails that were sent and other things she may have been doing on the computer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I would not let anything happen to my daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You left your 2-year-old child with a person who does not exist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We fell in love with that little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police confiscated Casey Anthony`s computer after her July arrest and found visits to Web sites with information about chloroform.

CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

G. ANTHONY: Maybe my daughter ran over something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Hair samples don`t mean anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the trunk of the car that are similar in length and color --

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And is the trial headed to move?

Out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story. Natisha, is to true that the judge -- the trial judge on tot mom`s case was seen walking around the Palm Beach County courthouse?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It is true. He was seen there just a few days ago. What he says is that he was just visiting a friend there, but this is one of the areas, Nancy, that has been indicated as a possibility of where jurors could come from.

It has a similar demographic to Orlando in terms of race, in terms of job, in terms of income. So this is one of the places. However, the administrative office at the courthouse there does say that they have not been asked to bring in more jurors. But the deadline for the jury, finding out where the jury is going to come from will be May 6th.

GRACE: Well, you know what, Natisha, you`re right. The population, Orange County, 1.08 million. Palm Beach, 1.28 million. High school grads 81 percent versus 83. College grads, median household, median home value, they all are very similar.

How far away is it?

LANCE: It`s about two hours away.

GRACE: So would they bring the jurors from Palm Beach to Orlando or take the trial to Palm Beach? What do you think, Natisha?

LANCE: The plan is to bring the jurors to Orlando, have them sequestered there for the duration of the trial.

GRACE: So we`ll see if the whole trial, the whole kit and caboodle is headed to Palm Beach.

Let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Eric Lueken, 23, Dubois, Indiana, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, two Combat Action Ribbon, National Defense Service Medal. Loved the outdoors, hunting, fishing, four-wheeling. Leaves behind grieving parents Jake and Melinda, brother, Brent.

Eric Lueken, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes.

And happy birthday to Georgia friend, Mary Cartwright. She`s a renowned preschool teacher. All of her students love her. And PS, she thought Ryan Seacrest. Nothing wrong with that.

Here she is with her husband, Tom, retired corporate lawyer who can still crack a contract and sings a solo Jerusalem every Palm Sunday and brings down the house. Parents of three boys, now men.

Happy birthday, Mary Cartwright.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END