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Nancy Grace

Casey Anthony Defense Fighting to Keep Photos Out

Aired April 29, 2011 - 20:00   ET



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s well documented Casey Anthony liked to party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she did this during a time when Caylee was missing.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her 3-year-old daughter Caylee`s missing. What`s she doing? She`s out buying lingerie. Check out the video here. It`s Casey checking out at Target, buying the food, the beer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of these photos are from the time when Caylee had disappeared.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thousands of photos, photos like that, Casey partying it up.

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chloroform would have to be investigated as a potential cause of death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She drugged the baby so she could go out and party.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, how come everybody`s saying you`re lying?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because nobody`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) listening to anything that I`m saying!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of her friends even says, at parties, quote, "the kid slept through anything."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zanny the nanny is really Xanax.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She killed an innocent angel baby just so she could go out and be a party girl.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for a 2-year- old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

Bombshell tonight. Torpedo to the defense. Tot mom`s lawyers try every legal trick in the book to keep the jury from ever hearing about tot mom`s wild behavior and escapades in the weeks, the days, literally the hours after Caylee goes missing, like partying into the night, acting as a, quote, "shot girl" at a bar where she sells shots of straight alcohol wearing a miniskirt, partying at a kickball party, forging multiple checks, including checks for booze and lingerie, even arranging a helicopter thrill ride for herself, the defense begging the court to throw out this brand-new evidence, including a "bella vita," the good life, tattoo, and more of what they call, you know, social behavior -- euphemistically, that`s what they call it -- her behavior in the days after Caylee`s murder.

And the state turns the tables on tot mom after she gets shrinks to swear she`s got post-traumatic stress disorder. The state decides to call those shrinks, themselves as state`s witnesses against tot mom. What do they know? The countdown to trial begins now.

Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, what`s the very latest? I understand the state has scored quite a few points in the last couple hours in court.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, that`s right. With -- the state has been able to get new evidence into this trial. It`s coming right up, and there`s been a struggle over what evidence will be allowed in. The latest evidence that will be allowed in is tests for chloroform that were found in Casey Anthony`s trunk, also searches on the computer, if you remember, searches at Casey Anthony`s home computer for how to make chloroform. That will by allowed in the coming trial, as well.

GRACE: To David Lohr, senior crime reporter with the HuffingtonPost. They are calling it "social behavior." That`s what the defense team is calling it. Now, that`s certainly coining a phrase.

Liz, pull up the video of her where she`s caught on tape writing a forged check, I believe it`s at a Target, for booze and push-up bras. You know, we`re now learning all sorts of things in court documents and in open court. For instance, very soon after Caylee goes missing -- in other words, is murdered by her own mother, tot mom -- she arranges a helicopter thrill ride for herself. Now, there`s a grieving mom.

Take a look at tot mom. Here she is working through her grief. Take a look. Hold on. There you go. There you go. She knows right where to put that. That`s a case of beer. And of course, in those bags are all of her sexy lingerie she just bought, David Lohr, for another night on the town partying.

Explain to me, David Lohr, joining us from HuffingtonPost, how the defense could argue this was inadmissible?

DAVID LOHR, HUFFINGTONPOST.COM: Well, they`re trying to say that her behavior is irrelevant. They want to exclude the 31 days from the time period where Caylee was missing, and there was a lot of important things trial-wise that had happened there that the prosecution wants to bring up. That`s -- you know, she had borrowed the shovel. She had gotten the tattoo on her arm. And there`s the infamous MySpace posting we`ve talked about time and time again. So there`s a multitude...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Not everybody knows what you`re talking about. Explain the MySpace posting.

LOHR: There was -- (INAUDIBLE) called "diary of days," and she posted it in July. And basically, it was a poem, said everyone lies, everyone dies, and you know, it seemed to -- kind of looking back on it now, it kind of hints of what was going on in her mind at the time.

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad who`s been on the case from the very beginning. Let`s go through what the defense is calling her "social behavior."


GRACE: And Ellie, you have covered cases now for over 10 years along with me. This is the first time I`ve heard of bizarre incriminating behavior called "social behavior."

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: You know, typically, it`s called consciousness of guilt...


GRACE: ... but they`re calling it social behavior. Hit it, Ellie. What did the defense try to keep that jury from hearing?

JOSTAD: OK. Well, I went through -- and they`re not very specific. We know they want to keep out party pictures, but they don`t really say what constitutes "social behavior." So I went back through the timeline and came up with a few things that I consider "social behavior." I think you probably would, too.

On June 16th -- now, this is the day that Casey went missing -- or Caylee went missing. She rented some videos with her boyfriend. She also visited a friend at his parent`s house. She`s photographed at Fusian nightclub. That`s the picture we`re looking at right there. She called her friend Jesse Grund to cheer him up after he lost his job. She also worked as a shot girl at Fusian nightclub with another woman, who says she was cheerful during that time.

She hung out at the Ale House with this guy, Sean Daly, who`s a friend of hers. She went to a kickball party on the Fourth of July, where everybody was drinking. They went to go watch some fireworks. She also posted that poem that David Lohr was talking about saying that, Everything can be taken away, everyone lies, everyone dies.

She also did other things like going shopping, using her friend`s checks. We know she wrote at least three checks to Target. She also wrote a check to Winn-Dixie. She also wrote a check for cash at the Bank of America, again on her friend`s account.

She was this whole time going to restaurants with friends. Everybody says that she seemed 100 percent normal. When they asked about Caylee, she said, Oh, she`s with the nanny, she`s on a play date, she`s at SeaWorld, never gave any indication anything was wrong.

GRACE: Ellie, where does stealing money from her grandmother fit into that?

JOSTAD: Well, the grandmother thing actually happened a little bit before this timeframe here. You remember, her grandmother said that they had this account with money in it that was to pay for the grandfather`s nursing home expenses. And the grandmother believed Casey had been draining money out of that account and spending it on herself.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Mark Nejame, former attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, expert defense attorney in Florida jurisdiction, Peter Elikann, defense attorney, author of "Superpredators" joining us from Boston, Alex Sanchez, renowned defense attorney out of New York.

Mark Nejame, did you ever have any doubt that the judge was going to allow this evidence in?

MARK NEJAME, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The judge did the right thing. These are very, very relevant issues. This is an issue -- what the state has to be careful of is that they don`t get in pictures that are purely inflammatory, that they show sexual activity or looseness.

GRACE: You mean the one where you can see everything she`s got to show, the one with the miniskirt up her booty? That one?

NEJAME: And that`s exactly what the state has to be careful of because they don`t want to...

GRACE: You know what?

NEJAME: ... be having an argument.

GRACE: Nejame...

NEJAME: Just that it`s going to prejudice -- that`s going to prejudice the jury and the prejudicial value will outweigh the probative value.

GRACE: Well...

NEJAME: They need to be able to show that these are all relevant one way or another.

GRACE: Peter Elikann, every piece of evidence the state is bringing in is prejudicial to tot mom. That`s the nature of a murder case. And this evidence goes to show she was not out looking for her daughter, as she told her mother, that she was conducting her own private investigation, looking for Caylee every day, trying to find Zanny the nanny that stole Caylee away from her, unless she was looking under the tables at Fusian bar. I mean, that`s what these pictures go to prove, that she was not looking for the baby.

PETER ELIKANN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, but I can argue this the other way also, that if she was really guilty, she`d probably do a better job covering up. I mean, here she is -- she may be a ditsy, immature, poor mother...

GRACE: Put him up!

ELIKANN: ... but that doesn`t necessarily mean she`s a murderer. I don`t understand why this shows that she committed a murder.

GRACE: You know, Peter, you`ve been practicing law a really long time.

ELIKANN: For a while.

GRACE: And you know that not every piece of evidence has to show she committed the murder. In circumstantial evidence cases, Alex Sanchez, the pieces fit together like a puzzle. When you put the first piece, you don`t necessarily see the landscape. It`s only when you get all the evidence you see the murder. That`s what circumstantial evidence is, Alex.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, but you know, Nancy, I`ll tell you the truth. I`m surprised that any seasoned prosecutor, and you included, would want to have this evidence come before the jury because you know that you`re setting up a major appeals issue.

GRACE: No, I don`t know that!

SANCHEZ: And the purpose of this evidence is simply to...

GRACE: Hey, Sanchez!

SANCHEZ: ... encourage the jury...

GRACE: Just stop just a moment!

SANCHEZ: ... to engage in speculation.

GRACE: Don`t tell me...

SANCHEZ: ... and that`s unfair. You know that.

GRACE: ... what I know. What I know is that these photos are relevant to her frame of mind. That`s what I know.

SANCHEZ: Right, but you`re forcing...

GRACE: And maybe, you know, Baez can use you down there in Florida to help him out with this impassioned plea that these photos are not relevant. Well, they are relevant!

SANCHEZ: Not, they`re not relevant.

GRACE: And take a listen to Nejame. Nejame...

SANCHEZ: Because you`re forcing...

GRACE: Sorry, I keep for some reason hearing irritating buzz. Oh, it`s Sanchez still in my ear! Nejame, tell him why it`s relevant. It`s not just me, Alex.

NEJAME: I think some of them are extremely relevant. You`ve got a woman who`s out after her child is missing who`s stealing, boozing, screwing and tattooing. All that`s pretty relevant as it relates to the state of mind about somebody who has a child missing.


CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

I sprayed the entire car -- the entire car -- the entire car with Febreeze.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unimaginable stench.


Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

CASEY ANTHONY: I really wish that none of this would have ever happened.




CINDY ANTHONY: There`s no evidence that Casey has ever done any harm to her child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you last saw her a month ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: Thirty-one days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I found out on line through, like, FaceBook and MySpace, where she was going to be at a party.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The going out, the partying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mother whose daughter tragically dies is not going to be out partying the next few weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only time Anthony ever mentioned her daughter was to complain about how Caylee interfered with having a boyfriend and partying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone in the tot mom`s inner circle were completely unaware Caylee was missing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked her, Well, where`s Caylee? Who`s watching Caylee? And that`s when she tells me Caylee is with the nanny at the beach.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see more of a calculated decision to end a child`s life, by somebody who has it in them to do that, in order for them to go out and party for the next four weeks.


GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Beverly in Idaho. Hi, Beverly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. My question tonight is, how many of those defense attorneys have children of their own and would know that they wouldn`t be doing what she was doing? If that would have been...

GRACE: You know what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... one of my kids missing, I`d have been all over the country looking for them, not in a bar looking for them.

GRACE: You know, Beverly -- don`t lose Beverly in Idaho. Beverly, I remember I had taken the children to the beach and we were in one of those little souvenir shops. It wasn`t -- actually, it was kind of big. It was long. And I had my eye on both of them and they wanted, like, little keychains. And I reached up to get them, I got them off, I turned around. I had Lucy but not John David. Do you know how fast a baby can get stolen? And the front door was way far away from me. I cannot even imagine if one of them went missing and then I go out and work as a shot girl, where, you know -- like the old cigarette girls?

Beverly in Idaho, are you still with me?


GRACE: The old cigarette girls -- excuse me -- that they would walk around bars in a short skirt with cigarettes on a tray that went around their neck. You know, she had that with shots. That`s what she was doing during her investigation.

Don`t move, Beverly. I`m going to throw that to Peter Elikann. Peter, do you have children that I don`t know about?

ELIKANN: Well, we`ll discuss that after the show, OK?

GRACE: I guess you`re going to go with no.

ELIKANN: Meanwhile...


GRACE: What about you, Sanchez? Your kids go missing, you think you`re going to be doing shots at a bar?

SANCHEZ: I have two beautiful daughters and I`m very concerned about them. And when my daughter was small, I thought one of them was missing at a circus one time, and I went berserk. That was a very frightening experience. But I`m interested...

GRACE: I didn`t see you hanging out at the bar, having a brewsky.

SANCHEZ: No, no bars. I`m interested in fair trials, Nancy. I`m interested in fair trials.

GRACE: No, you`ve got to think...

SANCHEZ: And let me tell you something...

GRACE: ... the way a jury`s thinking, Sanchez!

SANCHEZ: No, but -- if the...

GRACE: A jury`s going to think just like Beverly in Idaho, just like me. They`re going to think, Well, I wouldn`t be out crawling around in a bar when my kid`s missing. Nobody would.

SANCHEZ: Yes, but if the case that the district attorney has is so strong based upon the chloroform and this hair and the dogs, why do they need the pictures? Let them come in with good, solid scientific evidence and prove their case. It tells me that they maybe don`t have as strong a case as what they`re leading you to believe.

GRACE: No, you know what it tells me? Obviously, you`re also not a cook because, Mark Nejame, what`s a he cake without the icing? Tell me. What good is it?

NEJAME: I think the most important part of this case is to realize the way that she acted after her child was missing.

GRACE: Everybody, the judge has ruled these photos and many more like them are coming in as evidence. We are taking your calls.

But right now, I want to go back out to the panel. Joining us tonight, Aaron Brehove, body language expert, author of "Knack Body Language." What do you make of this? You`re the expert, Aaron.

AARON BREHOVE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: So when we see Caylee doing -- when we see Casey talking to her mother, she`s trying to convince her of things. She`s trying to tell her that she`s telling the truth. And when we`re telling somebody something, we don`t try to convince them, we try to convey a point. And a lot of times, she`s trying to convince also.

And it`s -- she says she would do anything -- I watched a lot of tape of her, and I see her shake ore head and shrug her shoulders at appropriate times. When she says no to something, I don`t feel that way, I don`t think we should do this, she says no and she shakes her head. But then -- we see her do this when she`s talking to her mother. And her mother says, I`ll do anything to find her, and Casey comes back and is shaking her head, saying, I agree with you. I`ll do the same exact thing. But she`s shaking her head both ways. What does this mean? This is a very deceptive tell. This is a tell we want to look at.

GRACE: So you`re saying, as she says, I`ll do anything to find her, she`s actually shaking her head no, Aaron Brehove?

BREHOVE: That`s exactly what she`s doing. And this is a -- this is something we want to look a little bit more into.



CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: Once you smell that smell, you just - - you never get over it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And those were her favorite topics, who she wanted to have sex with, drinking and smoking pot. That seemed to be the thing she was concentrating on mostly, not about Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! I need to find her!

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you, and it hasn`t been portrayed that way and it probably won`t be. But I know that, and at least there are other people that know that.


GRACE: We are taking your calls. Right now, out to Kathryn Smerling, Dr. Kathryn Smerling, psychologist, joining us out of Manhattan tonight. Doctor, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Doctor, how can the defense actually say with a straight face that this is irrelevant social behavior?

SMERLING: Well, it is relevant behavior, but it is certainly not social -- acceptable social behavior. It`s asocial behavior. And these pictures really show a window into her psyche at this moment. This is a picture of a woman who is totally detached from her feelings, who was not able to bond with her child, who has no empathy. She acts like a reckless child, in fact, not even an adolescent, and one that is incapable of seeing what the consequences of her actions are either before the pictures and certainly during the pictures.

The pictures show a woman who is so disturbed and so disturbed by -- without any emotional connections. It`s drug-fueled. It`s alcohol-fueled. And God knows what else she was doing.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who bailed tot mom out of jail and actually spent time with her, along with his own crew, joining us tonight out of Sacramento, California. Leonard, what did you perceive her persona to be? What was her demeanor when you and your staff were around her?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: She never once mentioned searching for her daughter -- never once -- because she knew that her daughter was dead. The doctor that just spoke right now described an insane person down to a T. When we were there and Tracy was in that room with her 24/7 for over a week, she was described by Tracy to us every day that we spoke to Tracy and debriefed her, I`m with an insane person. The girl is insane. The baby is dead.

We`ve been around this business for 35 years. We`ve been around situations like this dozens of times. And like the doctor just said, everything she said, the girl doesn`t care about right or wrong and she has no perception and no concept about any consequences that she would suffer. She was not drug-fueled. She was on pot on occasion, but she did not use drugs.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did nothing to find her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey kept saying she`s fine, she`s with the nanny.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. She went about her business every day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t sit here and be crying every two seconds like I want to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jumped up into the trunk, front paws, stuck his head in. He alerted to the odor of human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was pizza full of maggots and odor that was very, very strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had been crying. Not bawling, mind you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You guys are not understanding my side on this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Smiling and laughing with her attorneys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve heard most people say they don`t like attorneys very much. Do you understand how I feel? Do you really understand how I feel in this?


GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to go back to Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who bailed tot-mom out of jail to start with. That was on different charges such as bad checks and forgeries. And he and his staff actually spent a lot of time with her inside the Anthony home. What were you saying about her demeanor? What would she talk about? What was she saying? What was her family saying, Leonard?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: First of all, George and Cindy were very guarded about any conversations with us. After the human decomposition statement by the FBI, Cindy was discussing matters with us and I said to Cindy, I said, are you telling me someone put a dead body in the yard was a it was at the wrecking yard? She picked up on that and started using that herself.

Cindy is an emotional liar. When she gets into a situation where her emotions are about to erupt, she`ll lie. George, himself, didn`t want to but on occasion had to follow the party line as far as what Cindy was saying.

Now, Casey, herself, would be in somewhat of a play-land. She wasn`t in our universe in that room. Tracy described her as being flat-out crazy, insane, and irresponsible to what acts had to have taken place for that child to be dead. Once the FBI let us know that, hey --

GRACE: When you say that, she says she was crazy, what was she saying, how was she acting specifically? And regarding Cindy and George, I`m not defending them, but I would try if it were my child, god forbid, I would try to find any excuse, any rational excuse why they did not commit murder. And when you gave Cindy that theory, hey, somebody would have had to have put the body in the trunk, she may have latched on to that. I mean --

PADILLA: She did.

GRACE: Yes, it`s crazy, it doesn`t make sense, but I can see her latching on to that.

PADILLA: Yes, she did.

The only thing I told Cindy, if you`ll excuse me here for a second, was, OK, I can see her going over to the college and putting a dead body in there because she wants to take the baby out of town so she gets one of her college buddies to put a dead body in there from the college. There`s all sorts of things that can happen.

But what about the death band on the hair? There is no way of getting around that, Cindy. That`s the only thing that keeps me from believing any other theory people are coming up with. She says that could have been done, too. I said, no, you can`t fake that particular item.

Now, as far as Casey when she was with Tracy in that room day in and day out, they actually played decals, like the heart-shaped decal, she called that her "ugly sticker," her "ugly emblem." In other words, there was no rhyme or reason for her to even mention the baby, never cried, and one day they were looking at some pictures and things about the baby, and Tracy said that it really sent a cold chill down her back when Casey reaches up and grabs pictures of her and says, oh, look at my pictures, look at my pictures, don`t you think I`m good looking, don`t you think I`m beautiful?

And here they had just been looking at Caylee`s pictures. Things like that had Tracy in a frame of mind at the end of every day when we`d talk to her that this girl`s crazy. She`s absolutely out of her mind. She has no compulsion about lying, and she doesn`t know right from wrong.

GRACE: Was there ever a confrontation in the home, Leonard? Did George Anthony ever confront her about where is Caylee?

Yes. On the second day, I believe, the morning after she got out of jail, on the check charges, he went in there and he says, I want to know where my granddaughter is, you better fess up now. Casey jumps back and says, quit acting like a cop. Act like a father for once in your life.

If it hadn`t been for his friend, Jim, from Ohio, who was down there, and Cindy actually physically grabbing and hauling him out of the room, I think George would have done physical harm to her.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Susi in California. Hi, Susi.

SUSI, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

SUSI: It`s kind of off the pictures, but I`m just wondering, since they have said that Zanny the nanny no longer exists and never did to begin with. How is Casey going to be able to explain how Caylee got away from her?

GRACE: That`s a good one. Unleash the lawyers, Mark Nejame out of Orlando, Peter Elikann, defense attorney Boston, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, New York.

Mark, how will the defense be able to explain away anything if they have to admit and their own defense attorney admitted this, Linda Kinney said so, that there is no Zanny the nanny. How are they going to recoup from that?

MARK NEJAME, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re going to have to have her likely take the stand and acknowledge that she was lying and explain to everyone in that jury --

GRACE: She`s never going to take the stand.

NEJAME: -- why she was lying.

GRACE: She`s never going to take the stand.

NEJAME: I bet you she will.

GRACE: Oh, man. Elikann, would you ever put her on the stand?

PETER ELIKANN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I think she`d be such a loose cannon, such a wildcard she could wind up saying anything. I`d have no control over her whatsoever. I would absolutely leave her off the stand, absolutely.

GRACE: What about it, Sanchez?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, she`s not going to testify. You brought up another issue. What about that attorney that`s making admissions about what she told her attorney? You know, that`s very improper behavior for that attorney to go blabbing private conversations.

GRACE: We`re not on the inside --

SANCHEZ: There`s something improper going on there.

GRACE: Sanchez, Sanchez, I heard you. Obviously Linda Kenny is a renowned defense attorney. Has a great reputation. Obviously it`s clear there`s not a Zanny the nanny. She`s stating the obvious. They`re going to have to get around that obstacle in trial.

P.J. in Louisiana -- Hi, P.J.


GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?

P.J.: First of all, thanks for everything that you`re doing for everyone.

GRACE: Thank you.

P.J.: And my question is, since the defense claims that her pictures and her behavior are irrelevant, what about the parents` behavior? Is that considered irrelevant or does it not party?

GRACE: P.J. in Louisiana, which behavior? What behavior of Cindy and George Anthony`s are you talking about?

P.J.: Well, during the time that the baby was missing. What was their behavior like?

GRACE: OK. Good question.

P.J.: Thank you.

GRACE: What about it? Out to Ellie Jostad. We know that Cindy and George Anthony are going to be called as witnesses. But their behavior is going to come in at trial because they don`t have constitutional protections at all. They`re not charged with anything. And I`m not sure that anyone would ever argue that they truly were not grief stricken. I think that they were.

ELLIE JOSTAD, "NANCY GRACE" PRODUCER: Well, right, exactly. And I think if they were asked about their behavior and what they`ve told detectives in the past is that during this 31-day period of time, they were constantly calling Casey, trying to find Caylee, asking her where she was.

And they kept hitting roadblocks. Casey Anthony would tell them, I`m out of town. One point she said she was in Tampa. She said they were with a nanny, staying with friends. There was always some excuse. We heard Cindy Anthony`s voice frantic when she finally found Casey in July and realized Caylee was not with her and was, in fact, missing.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have -- I don`t -- I have no idea who that -- who took Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mom! I`m sorry. I love you guys, I miss you --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, sweetheart, here`s dad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m going to hang up. I just want to walk away right now.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, what`s your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I called a little bit ago the deputy sheriff. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. What is the address that you`re calling from?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re talking about a three-year-old little girl. My daughter finally admitted the baby-sitter stole her. I need to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your daughter admitted the baby is where?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The baby-sitter took her a month ago. My daughter`s been looking for her. I told you, my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today but I can`t find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did the person do that you need arrested?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Taking the child`s mother into custody for allegedly lying to authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got arrested on a whim today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Marie Anthony walked out of the orange county sheriff`s office with her head held high. Detectives say she`s shown little emotion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee`s mom was rearrested.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony arrested again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Handcuffed and placed under arrest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is she reacting to it?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No reaction from Casey about going back to jail?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll take this as far as I need to to prove my innocence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In jail since her arrest on murder charges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow. I`m glad I`m not on the outside. I`m really glad I`m not out there.


GRACE: We are taking your calls. The countdown to trial begins now. The judge is within days of beginning to seat a jury in the death penalty case of tot mom Casey Anthony in the murder of her two-year-old little girl, Caylee. Caylee`s body found discarded just 15 houses from the Anthony home.

Straight out to Dr. Janis Amatuzio, former chief medical examiner, author of "Forever Ours" joining us from Red Wing. Doctor, thank you for being with us. Doctor, the medical examiner in this case says official say that the manner of death is homicide but never pinpointed the cause of death. She says homicide by undetermined means. What does that mean and how can the prosecutors take that to trial and prove a homicide without a cause of death?

DR. JANIS AMATUZIO, FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, whenever a body is badly decomposed or skeletonized, the things we rely on, the soft tissues, the pattern of injuries just can`t be determined. We are left with having to look at the circumstances.

Now, manner of death is a classification. It`s something that could be changed. To understand the circumstances in this case are so compelling.

And I would like to say one more thing about this. The fact that the chloroform evidence is coming into the case I think is really important for the prosecution and damaging to the defense for these reasons. Chloroform, the chemical is chloroform, it`s an anesthetic agent. It is more effective that nitrous oxide or laughing gas which is often used in dentists offices.

And secondly, chloroform may give us the mechanism of death. Now, they can`t be proven, but we do know duct tape was found over the mouth area and the nasal area. Realizing all the soft tissues were gone. This duct tape was actually stuck to the hairs on the side of her skull.

So if a person cannot breathe, that is usually a death due to asphyxia. But anybody is going to struggle when they cannot breathe. We know chloroform -- it was chloroform, anesthetic agent, depresses the central nervous system and could make this child sleepy, even unconscious so that somebody could then more easily subdue her by placing duct tape over her mouth and nose, placing her body in a bag and then in two other plastic bags.

I think this evidence is very compelling. And this is not circumstantial evidence. This is pretty important stuff. So manner of death is a classification. Sometimes, and this even happened in my practice, there are times where the length, the interval of time, the condition of the body, does not allow us, it precludes us from seeing the precise cause of death and we may be left with the term homicidal violence. That is commonly accepted in the medical community.

GRACE: With us Dr. Janis Amatuzio joining us out of Red Wing. Strictly speaking from just a common sense perspective, doctor, I mean, you were the chief medical examiner. Does wrapping a body in bags and putting duct tape over the mouth suggest an accident to you?

AMATUZIO: It absolutely does not. This is something that was done to disguise this body, to hide it, to hide the evidence of what one has done, and then leaving it out in a remote or more wooded area exposed to the elements and the animals, et cetera, it just tells me, number one, disrespect for the body, and number two, an intent to cover up one`s deed.

GRACE: To Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers from the Nutley, New Jersey, police department, former member of the FBI. Detective, how often have you seen a mother not call police when a child goes missing?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NEW JERSEY: I`ve never seen that. In fact, I`m sure from the beginning, Nancy, police have examined her body language, her patterns, her behavior patterns, all consistent with what all the experts are saying. As the doctor just said, this looks like a premeditated murder. Mothers will lay in front of police headquarters, Nancy, begging for any bit of information that the police could give them to find their daughter. This mother didn`t do that.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Cindy in Ohio. Hi, Cindy.

CINDY, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi. Nancy, I was wondering if there was anything that could cause this to be a mistrial, because I just, you know, want this trial to go through and I`m scared that there`s something else that might pop up.

GRACE: Hold on, Cindy, Ohio. Wait a minute. Aren`t you putting the cart before the horse just a tiny bit? You`re already talking about a mistrial? We haven`t even struck a jury yet. Cindy, why are you worried about a mistrial now?

CINDY: I`m just worried, you know, it seems like in situations like this there`s always something that comes up and the person gets off. And I`m just wondering if there`s something that, you know, we`re not looking at that they could use to make it a mistrial, like -- I don`t know.

GRACE: Like these party photos? Well, look, I`m telling you about these party photos, even if these party photos are deemed irrelevant by an appeals court, it`s not going to be enough to reverse the case. Irrelevancy is not an objection that will count on appeal. It has to be a greater error than irrelevancy.

But you`re right to be worried, Cindy, Ohio. They`ve come this far. They don`t want to turn back now. Right now, everybody, taking your calls.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, after we pulled inside that garage, she said, her exact words were Jesus Christ, what died?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the single most compelling pieces of evidence for premeditation in the case is a chloroform search was done and there was chloroform in the car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re going to get our little girl back. She`s going to be just as she was. I won`t let her out of my sight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes it seems like she lies just to lie.


GRACE: Back to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. What about what tot mom said on all those taped phone conversations? Will that be coming into etch dense?

JOSTAD: Yes. That`s all going to come in. They tried, the defense tried to exclude those jail phone calls, her calls to people, you know, that were on the outside. And that all at this point is allowed into trial.

GRACE: What about it, Drew Petrimoulx? What about the party pics in particular? That`s what we`re talking about.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER COVERING STORY: A certain number of them will be allowed in. So we haven`t decided which ones will be. That will have to be hashed out. A certain number of those party pics will be allowed in. The prosecution says --

GRACE: What about the video of her at target, true? Drew, I`m sorry to interrupt you. We`re running out of time. What about the video of her at target buying the pushup bras and booze?

PETRIMOULX: All that stuff is what the state plans on using to show what she was doing during this time, so yes.

GRACE: Everybody, let`s stop and remember army specialist Brynn Naylor, awarded bronze star, Purple Heart, national defense service medal, lost his life one week before his tour ended. He loved snowboarding, tennis, gave up a tennis scholarship at New Mexico military institute to enlist. He leaves behind parents Ross and Leeann, stepfather, Robert, sisters Kelsey and Micah, brother, James. Brynn Naylor -- American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. A special good night from the New York control room. There`s Brett, Liz, Rosie, and who`s that -- oh, hi, Dana. Goodnight from our New York control room.

And happy 23rd birthday to Brittany, a nursing student, loves her family, her faith in god, time with friends, traveling, shopping. She`s beautiful on the inside and the outside. Her dad is a Methodist minister. Happy birthday, Brittany.

Everyone, I`ll see you Monday night, 8:00 sharp eastern. And until then, goodnight, friend.