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Nancy Grace
Baby`s Bathtime Turns Deadly
Aired September 12, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live. Police rush to a quiet tree-lined street to discover 8-month-old baby Christian (ph) struggling to live after a so-called freak home accident. Bombshell tonight. Freak accident? No way! Tonight, we investigate to confirm the 8-month-old baby drowns after Mommy deliberately leaves him in the family tub while she eats cereal and, quote, "takes a nap." Then after EMTs lose their battle to save baby Christian, Mommy goes on the run, hiding out in a local motel. But then she breaks down and cries in court about what? Not her baby. She cries about her bond.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was just 8 months old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Christian Metabolis (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was a happy, very healthy baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now little Christian is dead after police say mom Melissa Gutierrez left him alone in the bathtub for a, quote, "extended period of time."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the loss of an 8-month-old child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arraignment interrupted, a mother in handcuffs breaks down in tears.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-five-year-old Melissa Gutierrez had to be led out of her arraignment after she lost control of her emotions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very tragic. Very, very tragic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the offense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How can someone allegedly leave two young children alone in a bathtub? What was Mommy doing?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Orlando. After Casey Anthony, tot mom, takes in the sand and the surf in Mexico the past few weeks, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony, appear on TV to explain away the death and the disposal of their 2-year-old granddaughter, Caylee, in a swampy dump, blaming it all on tot mom`s, quote, "medical condition."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seems to make an excuse at every turn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s in denial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very much so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) said she went psychotic and lost contact with reality.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked them at one point, Do you believe that she actually took her dead baby to the woods and buried it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have a very different view of that. He is very critical.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: We`ve been through this for three years, and it`s the first time I`ve heard that out of his mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said, My mind never went to the fact that she could have done something to her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to answer my questions, tell the truth, and take the mystery out of this story once and for all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you not think something`s wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are millions of people in America right now that want to shake you awake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight, live, New Hampshire. Police rush to a quiet tree-lined street to discover 8-month-old baby Christian struggling to live after a freak home accident. Freak accident? No way! Tonight, we confirm Mommy deliberately leaves the baby in the family tub while she eats cereal and takes a nap.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mother in handcuffs breaks down in tears.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Merrimack mother is charged with negligent homicide in the drowning death of her 8-month-old son, Christian.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say mom Melissa Gutierrez left him alone in the bathtub for more than 20 minutes, where he drowned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unattended in a bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Melissa`s mother fought back tears, saying her daughter would never hurt her children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her 2-year-old son was also allegedly left in the tub unattended.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened inside this home...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) negligence of Melissa Gutierrez.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Gutierrez`s attorney called the baby`s death...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A freak accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just, you know, in the bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now the 25-year-old mom is facing negligent homicide and child endangerment charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So where was Mommy for nearly half an hour, the water in the bathtub running full throttle the whole time while she apparently took a nap and had cereal?
To Michael Board, WOAI, joining us. Michael, what happened?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Nancy this is a woman who has never taken responsibility for anything that has happened in her entire life! We`ve dug through her criminal history, which is quite long. This is a woman -- she`s been charged with assault. Oh, it wasn`t really my fault, it was domestic violence. She`s been charged with cocaine...
GRACE: What? Wait!
BOARD: ... crack possession...
GRACE: Wait! Wait! Wait!
BOARD: Yes?
GRACE: What assault? What assault? An assault on whom?
BOARD: This was 2005. It was a domestic violence charge between her and a guy she was with at the time.
GRACE: Wait! Wait!
BOARD: But you know, the...
GRACE: Wait! Michael! Michael! Michael! Michael! You`ve got it all bass-ackwards. You`re telling me that they had a domestic, i.e. a fight. And she`s the one that got charged? She attacked the man?
BOARD: Well, she has an excuse. Oh, no -- you know, there`s an excuse for that assault charge. It was domestic violence.
GRACE: OK. Go ahead. What else (INAUDIBLE) That`s 2005.
BOARD: That`s 2005. Crack cocaine, cocaine possession. Oh, I`ve got an excuse for that one, too. It was just in my car. It was just in my car. It really wasn`t mine. I wasn`t...
GRACE: Wait! Wait!
BOARD: ... really selling it...
GRACE: OK, Michael, please! Please! Please! I`m trying to take this in. So 2005, she attacks a man. It`s a domestic violence. That`s 2005. 2008, she`s got crack cocaine. OK. And it was in her car?
BOARD: It was in her car. So it`s not really her fault. It was just in her car.
GRACE: Well, how did it get in her car?
BOARD: Well, that`s a good question. But she was merely transporting it. She really didn`t know what she was doing. It`s another excuse, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, Michael! Michael! Don`t you realize what you`re saying? If she`s transporting crack cocaine, that would make her a distributor. That`s much worse than just having a hit of crack, having a five rock in your hand. This is a lot worse than that! So she was transporting cocaine in her car. Is that what you just said?
BOARD: Yes. And it`s another -- it`s another excuse for this and...
GRACE: OK.
BOARD: ... you know, each one along the way, there`s been an excuse. And she`s trying to explain this.
GRACE: Well, you`re leaving out the 2008 DUI, are you not?
BOARD: There`s a DUI, as well. But that was -- you know, it`s just another excuse. It wasn`t really my fault on this one. You know...
GRACE: What about the forgery in 2011?
BOARD: ... along the line -- somewhere along the line, she`s going to have to be responsible for this.
GRACE: Forgery 2011?
BOARD: Yes. Another forgery. You know, she`s going to go on trial for this one. She hasn`t -- she hasn`t gone to trial on this one now, but I`m sure she`ll have a good excuse for this one.
GRACE: Straight out to Matt Zarrell, our producer on the story. Matt, let`s go back and look at the timeline because, apparently, when the EMTs got there, the baby was struggling to live. How did it -- how did it go bad?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, what happened was, is that, apparently, the mother went out. Now, cops say the mom told two different stories, one that she was eating cereal, another that she was taking a nap. Now, police tell us exclusively that at least 22 minutes, the mother was gone, potentially longer. When Mom came back, the baby was in the water. She tried to resuscitate her (ph). The neighbor called 911. Baby...
GRACE: Well, which one was it, Matt? Was she taking a nap or was she eating cereal? Which one was it?
ZARRELL: I think the cops are still trying to figure that out, Nancy. But obviously, she was not near her child for at least almost a half an hour. And now cops are trying to figure out what more charges this mother could potentially face.
GRACE: You know, Stacey (ph), it`s my understanding she left the water running full throttle the whole time?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She left the water running full throttle. And here`s the other kicker, Nancy. Not only was her 8-month-old baby in that tub and she left him there to die, guess who else was in the tub?
GRACE: Who?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His 2-year-old brother.
GRACE: So Stacey, this could easily have been a double homicide. And then in court, Mommy breaks down and cries, but apparently not over her baby, over her bond, her own bond amount. Thanks, Mommy!
Out to the lines. Jody in Connecticut. Hi, Jody. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a comment and a question.
GRACE: OK. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, God bless you. You keep fighting for these babies.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your twins are adorable. And I`m listening to this. I`m near tears. Do these people not realize how many women would love to have a baby to love and care for, and they`re leaving them to die or killing them or hurting them?
GRACE: You know, Jody, I was just remembering the very first time I ever bathed Lucy. And I don`t remember this happening since the first time I tried a case in front of a jury -- one time. I held my hands out, and they were shaking. I was so worried because she was so tiny and I was so afraid, you know, the water would get in her face.
I`m just thinking about this 8-month-old, Jody, and at 8 month, a lot of children still can`t really even sit up straight, you know, depending on the condition of the child. So Jody, what`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One other comment very quickly. My son is 6- and-a-half. For the very first time last Friday, I let him use the men`s room in a Sam`s because we went into the ladies room and the line was too long. And he kept saying, Mommy, I can`t wait. Mommy, I can`t wait. Mommy I can`t wait. Do you know, I kept opening that men`s room door and saying, Alex, don`t you talk to anybody. An older gentleman walked in, I`m, like, Don`t you dare talk to that 6-year-old!
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: You know, Jody -- OK, I don`t want to -- I don`t want to scare you, but I want you to look up a line, a story I covered a long time called Matthew Cheche (ph). It was out in California. It was a 9-year-old little boy. He was at a family picnic. And his aunt took him to the bathroom, and he never made it back out of the bathroom. So next time, even if you have to go in the men`s room, don`t let him go in there by himself. Please promise me you will not let your son go in the bathroom by himself again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I promise. I swear I will not. My husband says I`m overreacting and I`m protecting him too much.
GRACE: Well, your husband`s wrong, OK? Let him look up Matthew Cheche on line because now, when I`m at Target or Wal-Mart or wherever I am, I march right into the men`s room, you know, if I have to. So far, I`ve been pretty lucky. I`ve only had to do it one time with John David. But no, do not let him go by himself please. OK, question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) He finally yelled out, Mommy, there`s nobody in here, until that 60-something-year-old, this creepy- looking guy -- I just said, Don`t you talk to him.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the question is, do you really think -- I know everybody`s going to say this, that the acquittal of tot mom, murderer who was acquitted -- pissed me off -- do you think has anything to do -- I mean, we`re hearing so many of this now. It just seems every time you turn the news on. And I`m sick with it.
GRACE: Well, you know what I really think? I think that it has sent a horrible message, that that jury sent a terrible message. And I would also like to point out, Jody in Connecticut, that in this particular case, she is only charged with negligent homicide. And what I don`t understand is why this is not a first degree murder. Now, if the jury wants to bring it down in their verdict to a negligent homicide, that`s their business. But you know, don`t start at the bottom of the barrel! You cannot leave an 8-month-old infant in a tub full of water and then get five years probation. No! That`s wrong!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-five-year-old Melissa Gutierrez had to be led out of her arraignment after she lost control of her emotions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where she`s charged with the death of her 8-month- old baby, Christian Metabolis. Negligent homicide charge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a complete (INAUDIBLE) freak accident. This is something that could happen to anyone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Gutierrez left the baby and his 2- year-old brother alone in the tub with the water running for an extended period of time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left them alone for at least 22 minutes! When Mom comes back, her 8-month-old infant boy is dead!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) seriousness of the offense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was Mommy doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your honor, the state would request $100,000 cash bail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the judge went with $50,000, half of what the prosecution wanted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was a happy, very healthy baby, and we adored him to death.
911 OPERATOR: Fire rescue Cyrus. What is the address?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why he`s not breathing?
911 OPERATOR: Listen, we`re going get help on the way, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s only 14 weeks old!
911 OPERATOR: How old is the person you`re calling for?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s my son! He`s 14 weeks old! He`s not breathing!
911 OPERATOR: OK, listen, I`m going to...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are back and taking your calls. Mommy breaks down in court crying hysterically, but apparently not over her dead 8-month-old baby boy, Christian, over her bond amount. There she is. And let me remind you she`s no stranger to a courtroom. When EMTs arrive, the little boy is struggle to live. They lose their battle to save his life.
Mommy gives conflicting stories. But tonight, we uncover that she claims she was sleeping, taking a nap, and eating cereal while she leaves her 2-year-old and 8-month-old in a bathtub, the water running full throttle.
We are taking your calls. Out to Clark Goldband joining us tonight from the Telestrator. Clark, this isn`t the first time. Remember the Farmville case? Remember that? What happened?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, you`re certainly right, Nancy. That`s Alexandra Tobias. And in fact, in that case, she was so obsessed with playing Farmville and planting these fantasy crops that she just took it out on her child!
GRACE: Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Planting fantasy crops. Did you just say that?
GOLDBAND: Yes. Farmville is a virtual farm, and the goal is to harvest (ph) a small independent farm into a huge farm and acquire all sorts of plants and animals with...
GRACE: Stop.
GOLDBAND: ... a virtual...
GRACE: Stop!
GOLDBAND: ... currency.
GRACE: Stop! The goal is to create a big farm from a little farm while your son dies? That`s the goal?
GOLDBAND: Well, apparently, in that instance, she had checked on the child, said she wanted the child to be an independent child and not to cry. The child was fine. Came back later, and then the child was dead.
GRACE: OK, what about Shannon Johnson?
GOLDBAND: Shannon Johnson, Nancy -- that deals with Cafe World. And the goal there is to run a virtual restaurant. So what you want to do is become a master chef in this virtual restaurant and cook your way to the top. On that occasion, however...
GRACE: Yes, where`s she right now?
GOLDBAND: She`s in jail. In fact, Nancy, both of these moms are in jail. We know Johnson was sentenced to 10 years in prison for what happened on FaceBook playing Cafe World. And I can tell you that Tobias sentenced to 50 years in prison -- that`s 5-0, 50 years.
GRACE: OK, this is what I don`t understand. Unleash the lawyers. Joining us out of Orlando, Bill Sheaffer, former prosecutor, WFTV legal analyst, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, New York, John Manuelian, defense attorney, LA.
Bill, one woman gets 10 years, one gets 50. Why is this woman only looking at probably probation on negligent homicide. Why?
BILL SHEAFFER, WFTV LEGAL ANALYST: Well, she shouldn`t be looking at just negligent homicide. I agree with you. The thing that -- the charge that she should be facing is first degree felony murder. The felony murder and the felony -- underline felony -- being the aggravated child abuse of leaving the child in the bathtub for 22 minutes.
GRACE: OK, weigh in, Sanchez.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that would be absolutely outrageous to charge her with first degree murder. First degree murder...
GRACE: Because?
SANCHEZ: ... would indicate that she has intentionally created a situation where she was preparing to murder her child. That`s not the case here. This is an accident.
GRACE: How do you know?
SANCHEZ: You know -- you know what`s outrageous here?
GRACE: How do you know she didn`t put the baby in there face down? How do you know that?
SANCHEZ: Right. But how do you know...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: ... so why are you suggesting that she...
GRACE: I don`t have to know!
SANCHEZ: ... was intentionally trying to murder this child?
GRACE: That`s up to a jury! Remember the jury system?
SANCHEZ: Right. That`s right. And you know what`s particularly...
GRACE: Twelve in a box.
SANCHEZ: You know what`s egregious here, Nancy? The fact that...
GRACE: Oh, what`s egregious, Alex?
SANCHEZ: ... you and Michael Board...
GRACE: The fact that the baby died in the tub while Mommy had cereal?
SANCHEZ: No. The fact that you...
GRACE: Is that the egregious part?
SANCHEZ: No. The fact that you and Michael Board are both bringing up the fact that she has...
GRACE: Oh, yes!
SANCHEZ: ... a criminal record...
GRACE: Right!
SANCHEZ: ... on completely unrelated charges.
GRACE: We`re the bad guys! Right. We`re the bad guys. OK. Manuelian, you got anything to add?
JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I think she`s being charged with a class B felony. She might be eligible for probation, but I doubt she`s going to get it if she`s found guilty in this case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Answers to a negligent homicide charge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A complete (INAUDIBLE) freak accident. This is something that could happen to anyone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How can someone allegedly leave two young children alone in a bathtub?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Great magnitude. We`re talking about the loss of an 8-month-old child through the negligence of Melissa Gutierrez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) help my daughter through the worst pain I`ve ever seen her in!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both her baby and her 2-year-old son unattended in a bathtub for a, quote, "extended period of time." The baby drowned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Merrimack mother is charged with negligent homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leaving court, Gutierrez`s husband, who wasn`t home when the baby...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Straight out to Woodrow Tripp, former police commander, polygraph expert. Woody, you know, you and I have seen a lot, a lot of homicide scenes (ph). Can you give me one reason this should not be at least felony murder? Sheaffer hit it on - - hit the nail on the head. When you commit a felony such as felony child neglect or felony abuse and a death occurs, that is felony murder.
WOODROW TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER: Let me think about that, Nancy. No. Absolutely no reason why not. You know, I keep hearing this unintentional, an accident. Well, an accident is when something unintentionally occurs. You leave an 8-month-old in a tub of water, and what`s going to occur is exactly what did occur. No, not any -- can`t think of anything, Nancy. Sorry. Can`t help you.
GRACE: You are taking a look at Melissa Gutierrez, who began crying hysterically, breaking down in court. This after the death by drowning of her 8-month-old baby boy in the family tub. She relaxed on the sofa and had cereal and took a little nap for nearly half an hour while her 8-month- old infant and her 2-year-old child were in the tub. The 8-month-old drowned to death. Then Mommy goes on the run, hiding out in a local motel until cops had to actually put out a press release to get answers in the case.
Liz, show me the shot of the grandmother. Out to Michael Board. Why is the 2-year-old in state custody tonight? Why doesn`t the grandmother or the family have the 2-year-old?
BOARD: It`s a good question, and police won`t tell us why. But hey, at least the 2-year-old isn`t with Mommy. I mean, we got to thank our -- thank our God there somewhere that she`s not back in this situation.
GRACE: Well, are you telling me Mommy`s out tonight? She`s not in jail?
BOARD: Mommy is out. She bonded out of jail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was very happy, very healthy baby and we adored him to death. It`s the hardest thing in the world that I`ve ever had to deal with. I can`t help my daughter through the worst pain I`ve ever seen her in! All I can say is what...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Gutierrez left the baby and his 2- year-old brother alone in the tub with the water running for an extended period of time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The loss of an 8-month-old child due to the negligence of Melissa Gutierrez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Merrimack mother is charged with negligent homicide in the drowning death of her 8-month-old son, Christian.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say Gutierrez left the baby and his 2- year-old brother alone in the tub with the water running for an extended period of time.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This story has become extra troubling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very tragic. Very, very tragic.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But Gutierrez`s attorney called the baby`s death a freak accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, it`s just, you know, kid in bathtub. That`s all we have right now.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So mommy may have called it a freak accident . I prefer to call it murder one.
Melissa Gutierrez, the mother in this case, leaves her 8-month-old baby boy and 2-year-old child in the tub together while she takes a nap and eats cereal on the sofa. All the while the faucet running in the tub full throttle.
Well, there she is, kicking back, having a good time. And guess what? Tonight, with her child dead, she`s out. She`s not even behind bars. And the biggest charge law enforcement can muster up is negligent homicide. She`ll probably get probation on this.
Out to the lines, Vicki in South Carolina. Hi, Vicki, what`s your question?
VICKI, CALLER FROM SOUTH CAROLINA: Hey, Nancy, thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear.
(CROSSTALK)
VICKI: This is -- this is murder. I have --
GRACE: Yes, it is.
VICKI: This is murder. This woman is absolutely an irresponsible mother. Not to mention not the best law-abiding citizen. I`m so sick of hearing of these things that these mothers are doing. What`s the deal?
I have two daughters that are wonderful mothers. The 2 years old, they still -- they are still supervised in the tub. Nobody comes out --
GRACE: At 6 years old?
VICKI: At 6 and 2 years old.
GRACE: Well, the twins are 3 1/2 and they`ve never been unsupervised in the tub. Never. In fact if I`m not there, they don`t even get tub bath. They get wiped off with wet wipes. All right? Because I don`t want them in the water without me being there to watch them. Absolutely not.
And you know what? To Nia Bender, news director, 710 KNUS. Nia, thanks for being with us. The "Cafe World" case was extremely disturbing when that mom kills her baby. What happened?
NIA BENDER, NEWS DIRECTOR, KNUS RADIO: Well, she claims that she went out of the bathroom for about 10 minutes so she could go check on friend status on Facebook and play "Cafe World" and then she shared some videos, and left a soaking month old little boy in the bathtub by himself.
She claims she was out of there for 10 minutes, that she checked on him once. And then she says three more minutes went by. And she didn`t hear her son playing so she went to check on the baby. That`s when she found him in the bathtub in the water. And at the same time she claims that he was independent and she didn`t want him to be a mama`s boy so that`s why she let him bathe by himself.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Dr. Helen Morrison, forensic psychiatrist, author of "My Life among Serial Killers."
Dr. Morrison, thank you for being with us. What`s with the phenomena --
Thank you for having me.
GRACE: -- occurring that moms would rather be on Facebook -- and I`m suspicious that this mom may have been on Facebook at the time -- and let their children die? And we`re seeing it over and over -- there`s the "Farmville" case, the "Cafe World" case, the "Fishville" case. It goes on and on and on.
DR. HELEN MORRISON, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST, AUTHOR OF "MY LIFE AMONG SERIAL KILLERS": We`re looking at individuals who see themselves as the center of the world and everything else is either a nuisance, a distraction, or doesn`t deserve time that the person themselves thinks that they deserve. It`s a very difficult situation. The people who are absolutely --
GRACE: Hold on, hold on, Doctor.
Clark, what am I seeing? What is that?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: First, you`re seeing some "Cafe World" footage. And on there you can see the user trying to craft the restaurant. But right now on your screen we are taking a live action shot, look at a game of "Fishville" taking place. And on "Fishville" you want to build a fantasy aquarium to become the largest aquarium it can be. You start with small fish and as you`re successful you increase your --
GRACE: How do you know so much about "Fishville?"
GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, this is -- these games are --
GRACE: Please don`t say you`ve played it.
GOLDBAND: Well, I have not played it but I have read about it. This is sweeping the country, Nancy. People from all walks of life. I would venture to say some watching our show this evening are playing "Farmville" as we speak.
GRACE: Yes. Thanks for that thought.
Out to the lines. I believe this is Jason in Canada. Hi, Jason.
JASON, CALLER FROM CANADA: Hi, Nancy. How you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
JASON: I have a question. Where is the father? And what do you think she should be charged with, Nancy?
GRACE: OK, Jason, obviously I think she should be charged with murder one. It`s a back-up felony murder which gives you the same penalty as murder one which would be life imprisonment or death penalty or -- life without possibility of parole.
Based on the theory, the legal theory that in the commission of a felony that being child abuse, a death occurred. Similar to robbing a bank and you don`t think anybody is going to get hurt but then the teller gets shot dead? Well, that`s a felony murder. Whether you go into the scenario intending to commit a murder or not, a death occurs during the commission of a felony.
Now, Jason, what was your other question? Who -- the father.
To Michael Board, WOAI, what about the father? Was he not in court?
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: He was in court. He did not talk to the media. He is the baby daddy in this case. And the police have been speaking with him. So they are in contact with him. He has not been charged with anything at this point.
GRACE: Where was he when all this went down?
BOARD: He was not at home we know that much. But other than that we don`t know.
GRACE: To Dr. Vincent Dimaio, former chief medical examiner, Bexar County, forensic pathologist.
Dr. Dimaio, so great to have you with us. Thank you for being here.
DR. VINCENT DIMAIO, M.D., FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BEXAR COUNTY, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Thank you for inviting me.
GRACE: Doctor, police say the mom left the children alone for an extended period of time. She says nearly 30 minutes. Is there any way to determine based on the autopsy how long the child had been in the water?
DIMAIO: No. But what you do know was the child would have been under the water conscious for at least a minute to two minutes struggling to breathe and bringing in water in the lungs. After that the child would have become unconscious and would have had to have been under the water for an additional six to eight minutes to be brain dead. So --
GRACE: You know, Dr. Dimaio, I`ve always thought drowning would be one of the -- if you have to pick a way to die, would be one of the worst ways to die. I`m just imagining this 8-month-old infant who at that age I don`t really think they can even see that well and the water on full throttle in the tub, and the baby is going under.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: At any point would he have been unconscious?
DIMAIO: Yes.
GRACE: Or would he have had to live and suffer those two to three minutes?
DIMAIO: No. The child would have been attempting to breathe under water for one to two minutes. And, you know, it`s like anyone who has ever had an acute asthmatic attack, they know how terrible it feels that you can`t be breathe, to be short of breath.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He was just 8 months old but now little Christian is dead. Police say mom Melissa Gutierrez left him alone in the bathtub for more than 20 minutes where he drowned. The 25-year-old mom is facing negligent homicide and child endangerment charges.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL": My interview with Casey Anthony`s parents. I asked them at one point, do you believe that she actually took her dead baby to the woods and buried it? There are millions of people in America right now that want to shake you awake.
He is very critical. Do you think Casey was involved in Caylee`s death? She seems to make an excuse at every turn. Are you saying she went psychotic and lost contact with reality? You know the truth, don`t you?
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We`ve been through this for three years and this is the first time I`ve heard that out of his mouth.
MCGRAW: Said, you realize when she was standing there in that hallway she knew that baby of dead and she knew where it was. I want to you answer my questions, tell the truth and take the mystery out of this story once and for all.
BARBARA WALTERS, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": The defense kept saying that Casey was mentally ill because of the family. The family was -- the molestation, the family was so neurotic. Did you think so?
MCGRAW: I do not.
WALTERS: You do not.
JOY BEHAR, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": You don`t believe in the molestation or the neuroses?
MCGRAW: Neither.
SHERRIE SHEPHERD, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": Casey Anthony is this pathological liar. Do the parents take any responsibility or any onus for that at all?
MCGRAW: Oh, my god --
(CROSSTALK)
SHEPHERD: Because it seems like she`s been doing this. Do they --
MCGRAW: Yes, they do. They feel -- you know, they question themselves every minute of every day. What did we fail to see. What could we have done differently. Because their position is up until the pregnancy she was showing reasonably normal behavior and then it began to change.
I think her actions speak louder than any words she could say, and at this point, I don`t think that you could get the truth out of her. Look at all of the lies that she`s told across three years.
I said, do you realize when she was standing there in that hallway she knew that baby was dead and she knew where it was. Every lie she told you. When you were talking to her in jail and saying, do you think we`ll find her, and she says, you know, I hope so. Every question you ask her, everything, she knew where that baby was and she let you twist it.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was from ABC`s "The View" as Dr. Phil, the first interview of grandparents George and Cynthia Anthony since the jury`s not guilty verdict in tot mom Casey Anthony`s trial.
To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, you know, maybe I missed it but I didn`t quite hone in on the medical condition that excuses tot mom for murdering her daughter. What was that?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, in this interview George and Cindy Anthony are reportedly going to tell Dr. Phil that Casey Anthony suffers from seizures. Now we knew that before. Jesse Grund said that she had a seizure back before Caylee disappeared.
But George and Cindy are going to say that she actually had two more seizures since then. One since -- one when she`s out on bail and one in jail. They say that those seizures are a symptom of a condition that could have caused her to either be incapacitated while Caylee was allegedly drowning in the swimming pool, or could have her -- create some condition that would make it difficult for her to tell fact from fiction.
GRACE: OK. I`ve got a problem.
Natisha Lance, she killed the baby during a seizure?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s what allegedly George and Cindy Anthony are going to say, that because she suffers from this condition, that while she was possibly experiencing one of these seizures, Caylee may have possibly gotten out of the house and then drowned.
GRACE: And what about the disposal in a swampy dump? Was that during a grand mal seizure as well?
LANCE: Well, one -- that is one of the questions that Dr. Phil asked about. He asked about that smell in the car and Cindy Anthony responds by saying to this day she still does not know what that smell was. Now as far as what George Anthony is going to say, he says he believes --
GRACE: No, I didn`t ask about the smell in the car trunk, which we all know was the child`s decomposing body. What I`m asking about is the theory -- if -- Alexis Tereszcuk, with Radaronline.com, if we`re looking strictly at the theory that a grand mal seizure was the cause of the death of the child, then what about throwing the child`s body in a swampy dump, triple wrapped in trash bags and duct tape?
How did that happen during a seizure?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: Well, they are saying that perhaps the seizures caused her to have -- maybe a blackout would be a way to describe it, that she didn`t really have all of her mental capabilities. So she may not have remembered doing that or she just wasn`t thinking clearly.
That`s sort of the -- not very believable excuse that they`ve come up with to justify this. You know 3 1/2 years later there`s now an excuse as to what really happened when it seemed like they never knew about the baby being dumped. They were looking, they were searching for Caylee, when Casey already know where she was. Now that they`ve had the trial they are coming up with oh, we knew what happened then. It was a seizure. So they`re just using it as an excuse.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Bill Sheaffer, Alex Sanchez, John Manuelian.
Weigh in, Sheaffer.
BILL SHEAFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, WFTV LEGAL ANALYST: Let me tell you something, Nancy. You know the truth, I know the truth. The child was killed by her mother. She was chloroformed, duct tape over her mouth and nose, and dumped in the woods like so much garbage.
I don`t care about the jury verdict. I lived with this case for three years. Heard every witness, every piece of evidence, read every deposition. Went to every pretrial hearing. This was cold-blooded murder period, and it wasn`t as a result of any grand mal seizure.
GRACE: Alex Sanchez, if it`s true that tot mom Casey Anthony does suffer from seizures and that during a seizure the child wanders out -- didn`t happen -- and drowns in the pool, why wasn`t that defense used at trial if that`s the truth?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, that`s a -- that`s a very good point you`re bringing up. I mean this seems to be coming out of left field. And by the way if Cindy thought that Dr. Phil was going to be some very sympathetic ear to them she was sadly mistaken. This man would have made a very fine prosecutor.
GRACE: Well, what about it, Manuelian? How are we supposed to believe that when that was not the defense used at trial. In fact the defense used at trial was tot mom Casey Anthony was sexually abused by her father, a former cop, and her brother and they kind of like petered out after that.
That`s all we`ve gotten in the opening statement. We never really understood the connection between that and the child`s death. Explain.
JOHN MANUELIAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ll even go further. If you remember Jose Baez supposed said that George -- Baez supposed told Casey that look what did you to your -- to my granddaughter. Look what you did. So he was there, he saw it. And it`s not inconsistent to what they`re saying right now. So I`m a little bit confused also. It doesn`t make sense.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Jessica in Texas. Hi, dear. What`s your question?
JESSICA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: OK. Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, love.
JESSICA: I have a couple of questions. My question is -- well, I want to tell you I feel that the Anthonys are trying to make any excuse that they can for something that they could have been avoided. You know, now they -- these young moms, they have children and they get depressed and --
GRACE: You know, I`ve got a question for you, Jessica in Texas. How could George and Cindy Anthony have avoided an intentional murder on the part of their daughter? I don`t see how they could have.
JESSICA: But seeing the depression, seeing the signs of something wrong with the mom, because nowadays people snap for any reason.
You know I work for the suicide and correction center. I get calls a lady snapped just because she had a flat tire. She wanted to end her life and whoever left the nail on the road. I mean she was just venting.
Grandparents, aunts and uncles, even the dads that are there and see stuff going on, you have to say something about it. You can`t just turn the other way. You know I go to my parents` house. And let`s say my kids, you know, we make something at home, and they didn`t want to eat it, and I --
GRACE: You know that`s a really good point, Jessica in Texas.
To Woody Tripp, you know, Woody, everybody is talking about snapping. There`s no such defense in our American jurisprudence. You don`t just snap, you don`t get mad because you`ve got to raise a child and snap and kill. That`s not a defense.
What`s with all the snap?
WOODY TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Well, Nancy, and if you snap, as they say, there`s consequences to that. Unfortunately Casey hasn`t found those yet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: More of my alone times with her, I said, let`s talk about this. Did you or did you not perjure yourself? She swears that she did not perjure herself, that she wasn`t trying to come your opinion, that the computer auto filled the chloroform when she was looking up something else.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: We discussed what they knew, when they knew it, and what they think really happened to little Caylee. How do you not think something is wrong? She says that she believed -- she got to a point where she believed that Casey was keeping Caylee away from her on purpose. But she said, my mind never went to the fact that she could have done something to her. She said, I thought she was keeping her from me out of spite.
This little girl was living with them, and then for 31 days not one peep, cry, laugh, nothing. And warning bells don`t go off. She`s got a job for two years, never saw a pay stub? I mean it went on and on. How could they not see?
It`s so hard for parents to wrap their minds -- I mean think about it. We all focus on the tragic loss of Caylee, but it`s so hard for parents to wrap their mind around the fact that their own child that they raised and sat in their laps and played with every day could do something so horrific, and they`re caught up in that. There`s no question.
But the real frustration here, Matt, is no one has been held to account for Caylee`s loss at this point.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your call. George and Cindy Anthony go with Dr. Phil to explain away as best as they can the death of their 2-year-old grandchild, Caylee. Apparently they are blaming grand mal seizures on behalf of -- on the part of their daughter, Casey Marie Anthony.
Alicia in Rhode Island, what`s your question, dear?
ALICIA, CALLER FROM RHODE ISLAND: Although I know it to be untrue, I know many viewers are going to be wondering what really happened. And I`m wondering, does George feel the public is putting the blame on him, seeing as though he was accused?
GRACE: You know what? It`s my understanding that both the grandparents feel somehow they are at fault, but they absolutely are not.
Let`s stop and remember, Army Sergeant Jonathan Lootens, 25, Lyons, New York, killed Iraq. Served Afghanistan as well. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Action, Army Commendation.
Generous, would just give you the shirt off his back and his last dollar. Loved working on a `64 Ford Falcon, fishing, golf, Stephen King novels, time with his nephew, sharing care packages from home with fellow soldiers and Iraqi children. Favorite team, Syracuse basketball. Leaves behind parents Debra and Robert, sister Andy.
Jonathan Lootens, American hero.
Special good night tonight for my "Dancing with the Stars" partner, Tristan.
And thank you to all of our guests, but especially to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes.
Tonight, a special thank you to the Association of Agents of the Secret Service who lent me their support in the upcoming season 13 of "Dancing with the Stars."
Thank you, Secret Service.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
