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Nancy Grace

Joran Pleads Guilty to Murder in Peru

Aired January 11, 2012 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Natalee Holloway prime murder suspect Joran Van Der Sloot pleads guilty to murder. That`s right, in the last hours, the pampered playboy, judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot, taken from an armed vehicle into court amidst a mob of onlookers, in court Van Der Sloot looking bored and unaffected, anything but afraid and remorseful.

But bottom line, Joran Van Der Sloot admits what many of us have suspected all along, he is a cold-blooded killer.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): You can say to yourself guilty of the facts.

JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, CHARGED WITH MURDER (through translator): Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice will come.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want justice.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Are you declaring yourself guilty or not guilty?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I would like to avail myself of my anticipated confession. As in the first moment, I want to give a sincere confession. I am truly regretful for what I have done. I feel very bad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He doesn`t want to look scared. He want to looks like the tough guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Do you consider yourself guilty of the facts?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arrested twice for the murder of American teenager Natalee Holloway.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened in Aruba? No one really knows except Joran.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether we get the justice Natalee deserves, that`s the ultimate question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Joran Van Der Sloot, he considers himself guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She sacrificed her life to put this killer in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How do you know she`s dead, Joran?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I just know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How did you see it? Did you feel her pulse? Did it go in one time?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I just touched her, and there wasn`t anything anymore. It was over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Did you try to resuscitate her?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I tried everything. I even lifted her up. And one time, Patrick, it was just like in the movies. This what is she did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Shaking?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): Yes, very much. So I said to myself (EXPLETIVE DELETED) What is going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What did you do then?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): So I stayed with her. There was nobody there, Patrick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Of course there was nobody there. It was night, Joran.

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): So I was talking to her, talking to her, talking to her. And she didn`t say nothing. Nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So how long was she shaking for?


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, Natalee Holloway prime murder suspect Joran Van Der Sloot pleads guilty to murder.

We are taking your calls. Straight out to Jean Casarez, who has been there in Peru, there watching Joran Van Der Sloot. Jean, I understand not only are many people thrilled, jubilant that he has finally confessed to murder, but also disgusted with the way he acted in court and the fact that he may walk out of jail in just 10 years. This for what many people consider to be a double murder?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": It was so easy for him, Nancy. He stood up and made a sincere confession that he felt so bad about everything. But there were no questions. You know, in the United States, you can plead guilty, but in Peru, it is a sincere confession. What makes it a sincere confession? It doesn`t go along with the forensic evidence, but the prosecution didn`t even ask! They didn`t contest. They accepted it. So now we go on to sentencing.

GRACE: You know, Jean, you keep saying it was a sincere confession, a sincere confession, a sincere confession. But you are tracking what he said. Do you really think, Jean Casarez, that it was sincere? Because it sure didn`t look sincere to me.

CASAREZ: It was not a sincere confession! He confessed that he merely hit her slightly in the nose. That`s all. And then all of a sudden, he found her -- strangling her with both of his hands, but she didn`t quite die. So he had to get his shirt and suffocate her to make sure she was dead. Well, Nancy, there was blood all over that room. Does that account for a little hit to the nose?

GRACE: So all he says in court is that he hit her in the nose?

CASAREZ: He doesn`t even say that much. He just says, I confess, I accept the responsibility. So they rely on the confession that he gave a year-and-a-half ago with no questions asked.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, didn`t he give a different story to his female defense attorney?

CASAREZ: Nancy, I had an exclusive interview with the very first defense attorney he had, that sat with him when he made that confession that I`m talking about. Before he made the confession, he whispered to her and he said, You know what? I got $5,000 from Stephany Flores. But at the point of time there was so much blood everywhere in the room, I had to kill her because she would have told on me.

GRACE: OK, Jean Casarez, here`s the bloody shirt of Joran Van Der Sloot, his shoes covered in blood, that room covered in blood. Jean Casarez, he tells his defense attorney what, that he stole the $5,000 from Stephany?

CASAREZ: That`s right. That would be aggravated murder right there, not simple murder, what they charged. And then he said because there was so much blood everywhere, he felt that she would tell authorities, so he had to kill her. It`s classic, Nancy, elimination of a witness so he couldn`t be identified in court.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Take a listen to what, in just the last hours, went down in a court of law. The prime suspect in the murder of Alabama beauty and honor student Natalee Holloway pleads guilty to murder.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Are you declaring yourself guilty or not guilty?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I would like to avail myself of my anticipated confession. As in the first moment, I want to give a sincere confession. I am truly regretful for what I have done. I feel very bad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): So at this moment then, do you consider yourself guilty of the facts?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): And so you accept the entire contents of the prosecutorial accusation, as well as the payment of civil reparations?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): So you go to the earlier accusation with its full content and ramifications?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): Yes, I do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Be seated.


GRACE: And another (INAUDIBLE) Joran Van Der Sloot, pampered playboy, the judge`s son, who was seemingly exonerated for the murder of Natalee Holloway, the Alabama beauty and honor student that went missing on her high school senior trip there in Aruba, often stifling yawns in court today. Apparently, Stephany Flores`s family, his second murder victim, very unhappy with today`s court proceedings. Why, Jean Casarez? Why are they unhappy?

CASAREZ: They wanted life in prison. They wanted this to be first- degree murder, felony murder, that during the commission of a robbery, there was the killing of their beloved Stephany Flores. Enrique Flores just e-mailed me, and he said that the family is has decided, though, on Friday, when Joran is sentenced, they will be in that courtroom.

GRACE: Why weren`t they there today, Jean?

CASAREZ: I don`t think they wanted to hear this soulful confession by Joran Van Der Sloot. It is not what they wanted. They don`t believe one ounce of it because this is the man that killed and took the life out of a 21-year-old University of Lima student.

GRACE: Other than Joran Van Der Sloot`s shirt covered in blood, the entire room was covered in blood at the time of the death of Stephany Flores. Jean Casarez, the room soaked with blood. Explain.

CASAREZ: Well, the room was forensically an expert`s nightmare, in a sense, because there was blood on the walls, there was blood in the bathroom, there was blood all over. And the family told me that underneath her nails that there was DNA, DNA of Joran Van Der Sloot. She put up a fight. She tried to save her life. It was brutal and it was cruel, but she could not undertake a 6-foot-5 monster, which is what Joran Van Der Sloot is. I`ve seen him in person.

GRACE: Stephany Tatiana Flores Ramirez, age 21, bruises on her feet, on her legs, open wounds on her fingernails, dark red bruises, defensive bruises on her arms, blunt trauma to her torso, bruises all across her face, her neck, scratches all around her neck, her body rigid, all of her clothing, all of his clothing drenched in blood.

As you will recall, he tried to cross the border, did cross the border with a suitcase full of bloody articles and the money he stole from Stephany Tatiana Flores.

Out to the lines. Sarah in Georgia. Thank you for calling, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. I just love you, Nancy. I watched you on "Dancing With the Stars." You were so beautiful and I always voted for y`all.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But my question is, if he`s pleaded guilty to the murder of Natalee Holloway, is the United States going to indict him on murder charges?

GRACE: You know what? I`m sorry, Sarah, you dropped out. What was your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was asking if Joran pleaded guilty to the murder of Natalee Holloway, is the United States going to indict him on murder charges?

GRACE: Good question. Unleash the lawyers, Meg Strickler, international criminal defense attorney, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta, Lorna Owens, international criminal defense attorney joining us out of Miami.

First to you, Meg Strickler. The U.S. indict Joran Van Der Sloot for murder? Weigh in.

MEG STRICKLER, INT`L CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via telephone): I don`t think they`re going to indict him for murder, but they`re going to get him indicted for extortion and extradite him for that charge. The murder case happened in Aruba and then the other in Peru, so we don`t have any jurisdiction for that.

But we`re going to get our claws on him with respect to the extortion case, and it`ll happen now after Friday. Once he`s sentenced, we will put in the motion to get him over here to deal with the case on the extortion case and get him some prison time to serve after he gets out of Peru.

GRACE: Lorna?


GRACE: Go ahead.

OWENS: You know, there`s a little known law that could possibly allow America to indict him for murder because Natalee Holloway was a United States citizen. But I do agree, I don`t think that`s the way it`s going to play out. It`s going to play out, he`s going to serve his time and then gets extradited here.

GRACE: Peter Odom, we`re seeing that little known law Lorna Owens referred to in place right now in Alabama. The diving death near Australia is going to be prosecuted in Alabama.


GRACE: So what do you make, though, Peter, if the U.S. doesn`t prosecute him for murder, because neither of the murders happened in the U.S....

ODOM: Right.

GRACE: We can prosecute him for trying to basically blackmail Natalee`s family.

ODOM: Well, there`s actually a better chance that we`ll extradite him for extortion than for murder. Generally, extortion doesn`t work for cases where there`s a possible life without parole or death penalty sentence. Extortion doesn`t carry such a sentence, so it`s likely that we will invoke the treaty and extradite him.

GRACE: You`re right, Peter. I think you`re right on that one.

Joining me now, Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway. You probably knew before all of us that this guilty plea to murder was going down, the prime suspect in the murder of Natalee, Natalee Holloway, Alabama beauty and honor student, there on her senior trip.

Dave, reaction to the guilty plea in court just hours ago?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER (via telephone): Nancy, I was just happy to see that the Flores family finally got justice. I just hope that on Friday that he gets the proper sentence that he deserves.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez and Jane Velez-Mitchell joining us. The two of you see Van Der Sloot yawning and laughing in court. What about it, Jane?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": Well, I think that this was all highly orchestrated and it was a big farce, and he knew exactly what was going to happen when he walked into court. And there was some kind of behind-the-scenes deal.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Are you declaring yourself guilty or not guilty?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I want to give a sincere confession. I am truly regretful for what I have done.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Did you kill Stephany Tatiana?"

VAN DER SLOOT: "I lost control of my action."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man once suspected in Natalee Holloway`s disappearance, but never charged, goes on trial in Peru for murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): At this moment then, do you consider yourself guilty of the facts?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A guilty plea from Joran Van Der Sloot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I took my shirt and put it on her face, pressing hard until I killed Stephany."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why you kill her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I don`t remember. I have no idea."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You look like a new woman and I`m sure you feel like one, too.

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I feel very bad.


GRACE: In the last hours, the prime suspect in the death of Alabama beauty and honor student Natalee Holloway, who went missing on her high school senior trip there in Aruba, pleads guilty to murder. The harsh reality is, however, he will likely walk in 10 years or less.

Joining us, Jossy Mansur, owner of "Diario" magazine, also the managing editor, joining us out of Aruba tonight. Jossy, thanks for being with us. What`s the reaction there in Aruba to the guilty plea?

JOSSY MANSUR, OWNER OF "DIARIO," MANAGING DIR. (via telephone): Well, very positive because we expected that guilty plea to have taken place here in Aruba, but it didn`t. Maybe it could have spared Stephany what happened to her because there are many parallels between the two cases.

So the reactions here are very positive. We hope that they do not apply what the defense asks for, which is between 10 and 20 years, but apply between 30 and lifetime.

GRACE: Joining me now, Dave Holloway. This is Natalee Holloway`s father. Dave, we were talking earlier regarding the guilty plea that went down today in a courtroom far across the waters there in Lima, Peru. In any way, do you feel that avenged Natalee`s death?

HOLLOWAY: Well, to some extent, you try to hold in your mind that this sentencing coming up Friday will help out, and just knowing that he`s behind bars will help out. I know we`ve all decided that Aruba will never be able to prosecute him. And you know, and you`ve just got to, you know, just step back and say, you know, he`s behind bars, and you know, that`s probably as good as we`re going to get.

GRACE: Dave Holloway, Natalee`s father, with us. Dave, you believe that Aruba will never prosecute him in the death of Natalee?

HOLLOWAY: No, I don`t. I think that they had their last chance several years ago when they tried to prosecute him, and I think it`s pretty much over.

GRACE: Dave, you mentioned -- you didn`t come out and say the word "disgust," but I`ll say I was disgusted when I heard Joran Van Der Sloot and his defense team talking about his post-traumatic stress disorder from Natalee`s death and being accused in that, that somehow, he is the victim in that.

HOLLOWAY: Yes. That`s something that I -- it kind of surprised me that the defense attorney used our case and the death of his father to try to reduce his sentence in the Flores family`s case. And the judge was able to stop it and not allow him to present that information. You know, he created all this -- if he had any stress, created all the stress himself. And I just don`t buy it.

GRACE: Take a listen to Joran Van Der Sloot and his defense team in court in the last hours, claiming that, regarding Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway`s death, that he`s actually the victim.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): He was faced against the entire world for the last five years, added to the recent death of his father before this event. These are all part of the baggage that my client carried with him that fateful morning. This concept is intimately related to what Joran Van Der Sloot suffered the day of these events because of the psychological condition of Joran Van Der Sloot on the day of that event.


GRACE: You know, to Dave Holloway -- this is Natalee`s father joining us. I`m glad right now you can`t see the video that I`m seeing of Joran Van Der Sloot shaking his head "Yes" to all that BS about him having post- traumatic stress disorder. He`s smiling and shaking his head "yes" in court, Dave!

HOLLOWAY: You know, that just doesn`t fly with me.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking developments in the Joran Van Der Sloot case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): How do you plead, guilty or innocent?

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I would like to avail myself of my anticipated confession.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you look at his eyes, you don`t see anyone who`s telling the truth or who was remorseful. In fact, you almost see a monster.

VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I don`t agree with the aggravating factors mentioned by the minister of justice.

GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not gone away for our family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Confessed killer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dumped Natalee`s body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will there finally be justice for Natalee?


GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. In the last hours, bombshell in court. The prime suspect in the death of Natalee Holloway, the Alabama beauty who disappeared on her high school senior trip there in Aruba, has pled guilty in a court of law. The bad news is, he`ll probably walk out of jail in just 10 years.

To Caryn Stark, psychologist in New York. I don`t understand why he`s yawning, looking bored, even laughing during all of this.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, this is one for the books, let me tell you. I`m just -- I`m still amazed at what you said about post- traumatic stress, that this murderer actually is claiming that he is suffering post-traumatic stress. It`s just outrageous.

He`s yawning and doing the things that he`s doing in court because he`s disrespectful. He could care less. He has no remorse, no terrible feelings about all of this, and is making everyone aware of that. And he has no shame, either. This is a guy who has no feelings. So it`s ridiculous that he would feel anything, let alone post-traumatic stress.

GRACE: To you, Jane Velez-Mitchell, following up on what Caryn Stark just said, the laughing, the yawning in court.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he claims that the last time he was in court, when he was really yawning a lot, the reason is that he was taken to court very early and left there from 6:00 in the morning in handcuffs and he couldn`t sleep. But clearly, this is part of his what I would call malignant narcissism and his sociopathy. He is arrogant. He thinks he`s special.

I think that it`s part of his addictive mentality. He`s a gambling addict. He thinks the rules don`t allow apply to him, that he can talk his way out of anything, even murder.

GRACE: With me, Dave Holloway, Natalee Holloway`s father, joining us from Meridian (ph), Mississippi. Dave, again, thank you for being with us on this day.

I imagine that this was a day in court you never thought you would see, the prime suspect in Natalee`s disappearance pleading guilty to murder. Stephany`s family not in court today. They didn`t want to hear Joran Van Der Sloot`s BS. Should he appear in court in America, would your family be there, or would you just be too disgusted to even look at him?

HOLLOWAY: Yes. I`ve never met him in person. I think I probably would, just to see him face to face. Of all the time I was searching in Aruba, I attempted on one occasion to visit with him in prison, and I was stopped (INAUDIBLE) So I never had the (INAUDIBLE) do it again. So yes, in the United States, I would (INAUDIBLE)



UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Van Der Sloot initially told the magistrate he wanted to give a sincere confession.

JOHN LUDWICK, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S ACCUSED MURDERER, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: He doesn`t want to look scared. He want to look like the tough guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through Translator): Are you declaring yourself guilty or not guilty?

JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN THE DISAPPEARANCE OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE (Through Translator): Do I have time to think this further?

LUDWICK: He`s always had that kind of persona.

VAN DER SLOOT, (Through Translator): I will try to do this in Spanish. I want to give a sincere confession.

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Joran Van Der Sloot has confessed several times.

VAN DER SLOOT, (Through Translator): I am truly regretful for what I have done.

LUDWICK: I guarantee he is scared.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through Translator): Do you consider yourself guilty of the facts?

VAN DER SLOOT, (Through Translator): Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through Translator): Did you kill Stephanie Tatiana?

VAN DER SLOOT, (Through Translator): Yes.

LUDWICK: He`s scared to death.


GRACE: Well, he doesn`t look scared. As a matter of fact, he`s yawning, looking bored, even laughing in court today, as he gets a sweetheart deal. Probably walking in just 10 years.

For those of you just joining us, bombshell in court today. The prime suspect in the disappearance and murder of Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway, pleads guilty to murder in a court of law.

We are taking your calls, but again, for those of you just joining us, to Jean Casarez, recap, Jean.

CASAREZ: Well, today was a big day in court. Joran Van Der Sloot is a murderer. We can say that. He pleaded guilty, saying that he was accepting the responsibility with a sincere confession. There were no questions asked. It was all so easy. The hearing was over. Now on to sentencing.

That will help him, Nancy, at the very least to shave off about 10 years. That would be 20 years instead of 30 he would serve.

GRACE: I mean just because he said the words, "I sincerely confess," he gets 10 years off his deal?

CASAREZ: Amazing. No questions. Prosecutor didn`t say, your honor, that`s inconsistent with the facts and the evidence. No. It was accepted. So now we go on. And there`s good time credit in Peru, too.

GRACE: Jean, explain why what Van Der Sloot said in court today is inconsistent with the blood evidence in Tatiana`s hotel room?

CASAREZ: Not only the blood evidence, but her body as you described earlier. There were bruises all over her body, black and blue. Joran Van Der Sloot said that he got upset and angry because she had found an e-mail on his Facebook account calling him a mongoloid because of Natalee Holloway, so he sort of slightly hit her in the nose. But then it escalated and he put his hands around her throat and she didn`t die. So then he took his shirt and put it across her mouth.

A slight hit to the nose and there`s blood all over the room and all over the bathroom and bruises all over her body? Is that a sincere confession, Nancy?

GRACE: And how was her body found Jean Casarez? Describe the condition her body was found, half hidden, half clothed.

CASAREZ: Her body was found without her pants on. That`s exactly right there. There was no evidence of sexual assault, but he took her clothes off of her before he leaves. That shows a consciousness of guilt, that he was trying to make it look like somebody was sexually assaulting her.

GRACE: And Liz, let`s see that video of him trying to doctor the scene by leaving the hotel room. He`s caught on hotel surveillance video, then coming back and then -- deer in the headlights moment -- looking almost directly up at the surveillance video, coming back into the hotel room with two cups of coffee, to suggest that she was still alive.

Explain what happened, Jean Casarez.

CASAREZ: Well, you know, he admitted this. He said that after he killed her, he went to go get the cups of coffee. And then he came back. He doesn`t know why he did it, he confessed. But then he got --

GRACE: Jean, did you see that? He`s knocking on the door. He`s actually --


GRACE: As if he thinks Stephany Tatiana Flores is going to come to the door. She`s already half naked laying in a pool of blood on the floor covered in a sheet. And he knows that.

CASAREZ: And this is how smart he is. He gets the hotel employee to say, you know I left my key inside, can you -- can you let me in? I`ve got my two cups of coffee. And trying to show that there was a very live Tatiana Stephany inside, and so he was building his case right then.

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad on the story from the beginning, where to now? He`s back in court on Friday for what and what jail is he going to be in?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, he is going to be sentenced on Friday and there`s been a lot of speculation about what jail he could go to. There`s been some talk that he could be sent to a remote jail out in kind of the hinter lands there in Peru up near the Bolivian border, in the mountains, very cold, desolate place. Unclear right now if that`s where he`s going to end up.

GRACE: Take a shot, take a look at the shot of Joran Van Der Sloot in court. Oh, he`s just so bored. Yes, I plead guilty, I`m sincere. That`s about what happened in court today.

Joining us right now, special guest, John Ludwick, friend of Joran Van Der Sloot. John, thank you for being with us. Joining us tonight exclusively out of D.C.

You`re a friend of Joran Van Der Sloot`s. Are you surprised that he`s actually pled guilty to murder?

LUDWICK: Well, he really didn`t have a choice in this situation. So I`m just hoping for the best.

GRACE: Put him up. What do you mean he didn`t have a choice?

LUDWICK: I mean, even I can`t dispute the evidence. He obviously murdered her. I`m not saying that it wasn`t provoked. And I believe he did have post-traumatic stress syndrome. But I hope --

GRACE: What do you mean provoked? You think Stephany Tatiana provoked Joran Van Der Sloot into murdering her? What do you mean by that?

LUDWICK: I do believe so. If she got the e-mail and figured out he was involved in Natalee`s stuff, she should have just immediately left the room and not confront him.

GRACE: What -- how did that provoke him? That she said whoa, are you the one that people believe killed Natalee? How did that provoke him into murder?

LUDWICK: It enraged him, obviously. So she shouldn`t have done that. I don`t believe --

GRACE: She shouldn`t have done that. OK. John Ludwick, no offense, but do you realize how crazy you sound right now? That she basically deserved the murder because she said, whoa, you`re the guy they suspect that murdered Natalee Holloway? That she shouldn`t have said anything, that it`s her fault she didn`t leave the hotel room?

Do you realize how crazy you sound?

LUDWICK: I`m not saying she deserved it. But she definitely could have prevented it by just leaving immediately and he was suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome.

GRACE: Yes, I didn`t ask you about the post-traumatic stress syndrome. I`m asking you about Stephany Flores. You just said she provoked him into murder. Have you seen the crime scene? Her blood was smeared from the bottom of the -- of the wall to the top of the ceiling. She`s covered in bruises. Half naked. He stole thousands of dollars from her. And said his only problem was the money was covered in blood. And you`re telling me that she provoked him?

LUDWICK: I believe so, Nancy.


LUDWICK: Well, if you`re in a room with someone --

GRACE: What?

LUDWICK: If you`re in a room with someone you believe might have been involved in a murder you don`t say there and talk to them about it. You immediately leave the area.

GRACE: Well, don`t you think that it`s more his fault since he beat her to smithereens, strangled her and left her in a pool of her own blood?

LUDWICK: Yes, he shouldn`t have reacted that way, but --

GRACE: React. You think a murder is a reaction?

LUDWICK: Yes. We`re just hoping for the best. Hopefully he gets out in 10 years or less.

GRACE: Why is that the best? Why shouldn`t he get the death penalty?

LUDWICK: Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not.

GRACE: These are two -- there`s two dead bodies. Two women are dead because of him.

LUDWICK: Even if Natalee is dead, you can`t prove that he killed her.

GRACE: I didn`t say whether it could be proved or not. I said it`s true.

LUDWICK: There`s no -- there`s no way to say that it`s true.

GRACE: So here is the face, have you seen the photos? Show them the photos, Liz, of the crime scene, drenched in blood. You`re saying that you hope for the best, that he gets out in a third of his sentence? Is that what you just said?

LUDWICK: Yes. I believe he made the crime scene look worse than it initially was, like you said, to make it look like someone tried to rape her or something like that. So I believe afterwards -- the money was just an afterthought. He didn`t --

GRACE: Hey, honey, let me tell you something. Her having her pants pulled off is the least of Stephany`s problems. I doubt that`s what she would be worried about. She was brutally murdered.

As a matter of fact, to Dr. Bill Lloyd, board certified physician and pathologist, you have reviewed Stephany Tatiana`s medical examiner`s report. The murder was heinous.

DR. BILL LLOYD, BOARD CERTIFIED PHYSICIAN AND PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, she was a victim of severe violent trauma. In addition to the bruises and the scratches and the cuts, she also sustained a fracture to one of her cervical vertebrae. In a young healthy woman it`s one of the densest bones in the body. Simple strangulation won`t break a cervical vertebrae.

GRACE: So to you, John Ludwick, friend of Joran Van Der Sloot, he used powerful, almost super human force, to murder a defenseless woman. And you`re saying you hope for the best?

LUDWICK: It was a crime of passion, a heat of the moment type struggle, and you -- stuff happens so.

GRACE: What do you mean, stuff happens? He robbed her and took her money and then killed her so she wouldn`t be able to testify to it. That is what he told his lawyer. What`s heat of the moment?

LUDWICK: I believe it just still happened when she confronted him about being involved. It just -- it spiraled out of control.

GRACE: So you`re saying that what happened was just simply everything going out of control?

LUDWICK: Yes. She shouldn`t have confronted him the way she did. She should have left the room.


GRACE: In the last hours, bombshell, the legal world rocking, Joran Van Der Sloot, the prime suspects in the disappearance and death of Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway, pleads guilty to murder.

The bad side of the coin is that he`ll probably walk in just 10 years or maybe even less. Apparently in that jurisdiction overseas in Peru, all you have to do is say, I sincerely confess, and you immediately get 10 years off your sentence.

With me right now is a friend of Joran Van Der Sloot.

You keep saying over and over that Stephany Tatiana, quote, "created a killer." How can a woman, a defenseless woman, create a killer out of a hulking Dutchman like Joran Van Der Sloot? Why does she create the killer? That`s what I want to hear from you, Ludwick.

LUDWICK: Well, she put herself in the situation, Nancy. As soon as she found out who he was, she should have left. She shouldn`t have started an argument and fighting with him. And be in an isolated area where -- you know --

GRACE: Why did she start an argument? All she did was say, even by his own words, hey, you`re the guy suspected with Natalee Holloway? How is that starting a fight, Ludwick?

LUDWICK: If I was a woman in -- I was in her situation, I surely wouldn`t have stood around asking him that question. I would have got out of there.

GRACE: OK. So John Ludwick, I am speaking now not as a lawyer but as a victim of violent crime myself, you`re saying that the murder victim who endured a brutal beating, a super human strangulation where her neck bone was actually crushed, the room covered in blood, her clothes ripped off of her post-mortem, and left that way to be found, it`s her fault?

Sir, you know what, cut his mic.

John Ludwick, I reserve this for very, very few people, but you, sir, are a fool and what you have said sets victims rights back maybe a couple of hundred years.

Take him off the screen. I don`t want to look at him anymore.

To Greg Kading, former LAPD, author of "Murder Rap." In his confession, he basically blames Stephany Flores for her own death. Is that uncommon amongst killers?

GREG KADING, FORMER LAPD DETECTIVE, AUTHOR, "MURDER RAP": No, not at all. It`s a way of rationalizing. They`re completely self-serving statements and actually shouldn`t even be taken into consideration in the upcoming sentencing.

GRACE: After all the cases that you have handled, Greg, as LAPD detective, I`ve heard it, too, from killers, they seem to blame the victim. And it never fails to disgust me.

KADING: Yes. It`s a classic case of the best defense is a strong offense, try to turn the tables, and this is in Van Der Sloot`s case. I mean he`s just a master manipulator and he`s continually proven himself to just do everything with self-serving motives.

GRACE: Out to Mayra Cuevas. She has covered the story from the very beginning.

Mayra, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Today, it`s a big milestone for victims rights advocates and crime victims everywhere. We never thought we`d see any justice at all when it comes to Joran Van Der Sloot. And when I think about Natalee Holloway`s final moments of her life, when I think about her mother, Beth, her father, Dave Holloway, with us today, and what they have endured since she disappeared. And they still don`t know what happened to her.

We got something today in court. What happened?

CUEVAS: But we didn`t get it all, Nancy.


CUEVAS: Because what the family was hoping was that Joran would spend his life in prison. The family`s theory is that Joran took Stephany to that hotel room to rob her. This was not a casual incidence. He knew in their minds, he knew she had money. He knew how much she had won at that poker table. He knew exactly how much cash she had on her and that she came from a wealthy family, because they had -- they had formed some kind of friendship at that poker table during that week.

So in their -- in the family`s mind, this -- the outcome was not all that it should have been. Now they`re happy that there has been a formal legal proceeding, that there`s translators, that even the consulate representative from the Dutch consulate has been in the court, so there`s nothing that Joran can come back and say, wait a minute, my rights were violated in this process later on. But you know, they`re at peace with the process, but this is not initially what they wanted and for sure this is not what they believe.

Now they`re banking on an FBI investigation. The FBI took Joran`s laptop from Peru and they`re cooperating with the Peruvian authorities, so there`s still that extortion charge in the U.S. and they`re hoping that`s where they -- justice will be served.

GRACE: You have recently spoken to Van Der Sloot`s attorney, what, if anything, did you learn?

CUEVAS: Well, he says that they`re hoping for the maximum reduction in the sentence. They -- he knows they`re going to get some credits because he`s accepted responsibility, so -- but he didn`t know, he says it`s up to the judges, he expects a possible sentence of about 25 years. Now he will likely still get his prison, jail reduction credits for good behavior because as far as we know he has been a good person during his 18 months in prison.

GRACE: Really?


CUEVAS: That`s not the reports that we have gotten about his stint behind bars. Good behavior I don`t think would accurately describe Joran Van Der Sloot.

CUEVAS: We`ve seen him smoke marijuana. We know -- we have the -- we`ve seen him smoking pot and trying to buy pot behind bars. We know that. But as far as his dealings with prison guards and his day-to-day behavior, it has been -- he`s been a good prisoner, as far as they`re concerned.

GRACE: Well, you know what, that may be true. Unleash the lawyers. Meg Strickler, Peter Odom, Lorna Owens.

Peter, if he`s high on pot behind bars, I guess he is pretty laid back. But in America, in this jurisprudence system, that would be a reason to get you a little solitary confinement and time added on to your sentence.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, maybe a couple of days, Nancy. That`s a minor infraction. A major infraction is something like assaulting a guard or making an escape attempt. He`s probably going against good behavior --

GRACE: What about it, Lorna?

LORNA OWENS, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with Peter. It is a minor infraction. He, perhaps, will pick up -- they could have charged him with that, but it`s safety of the people in the jail that`s most important.

GRACE: Meg Strickler, dope behind bars?

MEG STRICKLER, INTERNATIONAL ATTORNEY: Let me tell you something. I`m going to say something unrelated. Buy a (INAUDIBLE) when he`s going to be sentenced, and I am telling you, fate is going to get Van Der Sloot. He has had all these different things where he`s under good behavior, you`re saying, quote-unquote, for smoking the marijuana and that he`s got a sincere confession.

Perhaps the fate will get him when he`s sentenced on Friday the 13th. And maybe he will get close to 30 years and ease up to the discretion of this judge panel, he has been cooperative, that`s all we got from him. He`s got everything bad. Maybe the judges will listen to this case and sentence him more to what the lenient sentence we`re all talking about.

We will find out in just two days, I`m very excited it`s Friday the 13th because fate works here. Fate will work to the benefit. And smoking marijuana is one of the many things that Van Der Sloot has done that is not appropriate, period.

GRACE: Meg Strickler joining us.

And to Greg Kading, you have assessed him. How dangerous will it be for him to be released ultimately?

KADING: Nancy, I think that Van Der Sloot`s a textbook sociopath. You know you should have him in the dictionary as a sociopath right next to Charles Manson. Everything he does is self-serving and hopefully those judges will recognize that. And that he`s just a master manipulator and deserves absolutely no consideration.



PATRICK VAN DER EEM, POSED AS JORAN VAN DER SLOOT`S FRIEND (Through Translator): How do you know she`s dead, Joran?

VAN DER SLOOT, (Through Translator): I just know.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Van Der Sloot initially confessed to killing Flores.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (Through Translator): You killed Stephany Tatiana Flores, right?


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But Van Der Sloot later recanted.

VAN DER SLOOT, (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): It wasn`t an impulsive act. I am truly regretful for what I have done. I feel very bad. After I received a hit in the head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through Translator): At this moment then, do you consider yourself --


GRACE: Out to the lines, Donnie in California. Hi, Donnie, what`s your question?

DONNIE, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, yes, I was just wondering, I have two points, but that man who was just talking, Van Der Sloot`s friend or whatever, made me so mad. Does he seriously think fighting -- I mean when he came -- walked in and saw her on his computer that he was just going to let her go if she wanted to leave? I mean it looked like a death ending right there.

GRACE: I`m going to go to Dave Holloway. This is Natalee`s father, Natalee Holloway.

Dave, when you hear comments like those of John Ludwick`s, Van Der Sloot`s so-called friend, I mean do you even have the capability to be hurt anymore? What is your response to that kind of talk?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: You know, Nancy, I`m just glad you cut the guy off the show. You know people like that need to go check in and get some help. That`s just totally irrational thought process.

GRACE: And you know, Dave, it`s not just irrational, it`s irresponsible to put that kind of talk out there.

Dave, at the end of the day, I want to hear your response to the guilty plea in court a couple of hours ago.

HOLLOWAY: My response to the guilty plea was, you know, it kind of surprised me that he finally `fessed up, but, you know, I think he was cornered and didn`t have any other option to do that and facing those three women, I think he saw the writing on the wall. And I just hope that on Friday the 13th that these judges will render the proper decision that he truly deserves, and that`s the full 30, is what I think.

GRACE: Well, you`re being kind, Dave Holloway, because if ever there was a death penalty case, this guy, Joran Van Der Sloot, is the perfect candidate.

Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Angelo Vaccaro, 23, Daytona, Florida, killed Afghanistan. Two Silver Stars, Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Loved rollerblading and music. Wanted to be a military doctor. Leaves behind parents Nelson and Linda, brother Ray, sisters Christina and Patty. Wife Dana.

Angelo Vaccaro, American hero.

Thanks to our guest, but especially to you for being with us and special prayers tonight to Dale Dorman. She passed away this Tuesday morning. She served Georgia as a 4H leader and on so many other levels, guiding me through 4H and public speaking as a girl. Survived by sister Kate, niece Kim, and two great nephews, Ben and Jonathan.

Dale, good night, friend.

And to all of you, until tomorrow night. Good night, friends.