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Nancy Grace
Dead 2-Year-Old Found in Basement Storage Area
Aired August 01, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight, live to Delaware. Already the mom to a 2-year-old boy, Karen Hooks allegedly due to give birth in June. But a concerned acquaintance calls authorities when Mommy is no longer pregnant and doesn`t have a baby.
Police discover the mom`s 2-year-old son is also missing. Cops say Mommy claims 2-year-old Justice is staying with a friend. But when police search the mommy`s home, the unthinkable. Police find a suspiciously wrapped package inside, the corpse of a dead child. Where? In the storage area of the home!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I don`t get it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors in this quiet neighborhood are in shock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Delaware mom has been arrested. And after cops found the body of a young child in a storage area in the mother`s home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to police, young Justice Hooks lived here until his mother...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) Karen Hooks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Told people Justice went to live with her friend in Smyrna. He was last seen almost a year ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) thought about or talked about going up to see him (INAUDIBLE) would be a bad day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops executed a search warrant at Hooks`s home, where they found the body of a child in a suspiciously wrapped package.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inside this package, unfortunately, was the remains of a young boy who is approximately 1 year of age.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A medical examiner determined the child was murdered by blunt force trauma to the head based on the presence of a skull fracture.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t imagine!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the baby`s death is currently being considered a homicide, but the investigation is ongoing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for being with us tonight.
Tremendously disturbing allegations against a Delaware mother, who`s allegedly pregnant, but nobody ever sees her baby. Her 2-year-old son also seemingly vanishes out of thin air.
Let`s go straight to Robyn Walensky, anchor and reporter with TheBlaze. Robyn, take us through what happened here.
ROBYN WALENSKY, THEBLAZE: Good evening, Rita. Well, basically, what you have here is that this entire tale was revealed through a tip. A woman who knows this mother was extremely concerned that she was about to give birth. But she hadn`t seen her son in months and months and months.
Bottom line, the cops end up showing up at the house and investigating, and they find that there is this package, a clear bag, and in it is a blanket. They X-ray it, and sure enough, the remains of a baby, a child approximately a year old, is in the bag, Rita.
Talk about a disturbing find. We have no idea how long that bag with the baby was in the home.
COSBY: Robyn, it is so upsetting when you hear this story. Tell us a little more detail of how this body was found. And again, you know, I`ve seen some press releases. It looks like authorities are presuming it is her son, this 2-year-old son, this beautiful little boy, Justice. Tell us again how it was found and where in the home it was found.
WALENSKY: Well, this woman was -- she was in her 30s and she was renting a room in this house from some 70-something-year-old man. And when the police arrived and they search the -- home because they`re looking for the missing little boy. And they go into this storage space that she was sharing with another woman. And they see this bag and it looked very suspicious, so they X-rayed it.
I mean, oh! Doesn`t it give you the chills, Rita? And how long ago did she wrap the child? Did someone else murder this little boy? We are assuming that, yes, indeed, it is the boy, but it`s going to be a couple of days, if not weeks, until they determine if, indeed, it`s him through DNA.
COSBY: Let`s go to Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, right away. Can you determine how long the body has been there? Walk us through what authorities have to determine at this point.
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, MED. EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, Rita, what we would look for is how badly is the body decomposed? If it is simply skeletal remains, that`s going to give us one range of timeframes. It`s not quite like it is on TV, where we can pinpoint the exact time of death.
So we`ll take a look at the temperature, the way that the body was wrapped, and also go on the actual condition of the body itself.
COSBY: John DePetro, host with WPRO radio -- John, describe the living arrangements because what I just find unbelievable is if this young boy had been, you know, missing, or I guess had been gone, someone hadn`t seen him for a long time, nobody reports it. Describe sort of the house where this woman was living, this mother, if you want to call her that. It sounds like a horrible mother. But describe where she was living in the home.
JOHN DEPETRO, WPRO RADIO: Rita, apparently, Robert Mason (ph) -- he`s 73 years old. He`s the owner. He rented out the room to Karen Hooks. Initially, she was living in the basement of the home with this other unidentified woman and her son, Justice.
Now, apparently, the last time the little boy was seen -- because there weren`t a lot of people in and out -- was sometime last summer. So you don`t have a lot of people. She doesn`t have family in the area. So apparently, this Robert Mason, who`s the landlord -- he was probably the only person, along with this other woman -- it is an unusual arrangement, where Karen Hooks, apparently, with this other woman and her son, Justice, were living in the basement of the home, basically, renting out the basement from this Robert Mason.
COSBY: And John, this roommate -- she was the last one to see the young boy. Describe sort of was there anything unusual in that last sighting of this boy?
DEPETRO: There is, Rita. Apparently, it was sometime back in October when this unidentified woman, so far, roommate of this Karen Hooks -- she claims that she saw the small child on a blanket in a corner, but cornered in the basement, really unable to move, surrounded by objects. The only thing that little Justice could do, this beautiful little boy, innocent, was basically move his legs.
And then according to this unidentified roommate, this woman, Karen Hooks told her that the little boy was going to go and stay with someone else. But right now, apparently, that is a key witness, this roommate- slash-friend, other woman, yet unidentified -- she may have been the last person to see little Justice alive.
COSBY: Robyn Walensky, when you hear this -- suddenly, the boy`s going to go, he`s confined, can only move his legs, it sounds to me like something obviously very untoward is happening to this young boy. What are you hearing?
WALENSKY: You know, when I hear a story like that, it sounds a little bit concocted, Rita. You know, this sort of scenario is sort of reminiscent of the lies that Casey Anthony told about little Caylee, and we all know how she ended up, also double, triple-bagged and in a swamp.
So the fact that this woman is saying that she saw him and he was in the corner and on the floor -- I`m not even sure that that`s true. Also, they are saying -- the police are saying that it was blunt force trauma to the head. So he may have been killed -- you know, a hammer, a baseball bat. I mean, when you start to think of the scenarios of how this little boy died, it is just absolutely horrifying!
COSBY: It is absolutely horrifying! And Robyn, you know, the other thing you also wonder -- he`s sitting there in a blanket. Only his legs are moving. It makes you wonder, was there abuse going on before this? And obviously, the inference is that she killed him here with an object, but maybe it sounds like there was something going on repeatedly prior to that.
It`s not normal. You walk into a room, even if you take this roommate`s story at face value, Robyn, the roommate walks in, see the boy in the corner, he`s only moving his legs, is in a blanket, that sure sounds suspicious.
WALENSKY: Yes, it sounds like he was hit over the head, or there was abuse going on. And what was her relationship to the mommy? And what about this 73-year-old landlord? He claims -- he tells police that he was romantically involved with this woman. Is he the baby daddy? We don`t even know.
COSBY: C.W. Jensen, retired police captain, what do you make of all of this?
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED POLICE CAPTAIN: Boy, I think it`s really a disturbing case. And we were talking earlier, the staffers and I, producers, and I said one of the things that I`ve seen in my career is where you have a woman that somehow gets financially involved, many times romantically involved, with some sugar daddy, and then all of a sudden, her children aren`t that important.
So I`m not only concerned with this poor little boy whose body they found, but what about this alleged pregnancy she had?
COSBY: Yes, this pregnancy is interesting, C.W., because, apparently, she, you know, told people she`s pregnant. I guess they saw her pregnant. And now the baby`s gone, right, C.W.? How do you trace that?
JENSEN: Well, and that`s a big problem because, you know, sometimes, you know, whatever you can do -- you miscarriage or do some different things. You don`t do what you should do and go to a doctor or anything like that. And you know, years later, we find tiny little skeletons somewhere where they`ve dumped it.
I would just hope that as this all unravels and she`s in trouble and she starts telling the truth, that maybe we`ll find out what happened to all these poor little children. But I`m just telling you, I`ve seen women do this time and time again.
COSBY: Robyn Walensky, where were these reports of pregnancy? Say she didn`t go to a doctor or do some of these things that C.W. is suggesting that she may not have done -- it doesn`t sound -- doesn`t sound like she was a very responsible person, to say the least.
Who knew that she was pregnant and who knew she was not pregnant?
WALENSKY: The report of the pregnancy comes from that tipster, the person who initially made the call, who contacted the authorities, that was very worried that they hadn`t seen this little boy and knew that she was pregnant and was clearly worried about baby number two.
So nobody knows what happened with that pregnancy. And did this woman have money? Did she go to a clinic, like the other gentleman just said? Did something happen? You know, did nature -- did something happen to this baby? We don`t really know. It`s very possible that there are two deceased children here, Rita.
COSBY: John DePetro, also, she lies to cops. I mean, it is heart- breaking to think, first of all, this 2-year-old boy wrapped up, so it sounds from authorities, in the corner, wrapped up with a blanket and then plastic around him. And who knows how long his body was there. And who knows what happened now to this other baby. There are so many questions, John.
And the other thing is, too, is she lies to cops, right? When they first go -- this tipster comes in. The cops come to her right away after this, you know, report to child services. Then they get the call.
What did she say at first, and then apparently, she changes her story, right?
DEPETRO: That`s what caused it, Rita. It was that she was seen as pregnant in June. As a matter of fact, Robert Mason, who owns the home, who she`s supposed to be renting from, who apparently maybe even romantically involved...
COSBY: Yes, this is maybe...
DEPETRO: He remembers...
COSBY: ... the lover, right?
DEPETRO: Well, that`s the allegation. But he remembers he even felt a baby kick. So he`s saying she`s very pregnant. Someone suddenly notices, the tipster, that there`s no baby and she`s no longer pregnant. The lie comes in. Police ask her whether or not she was pregnant. She denies pregnancy. They had also asked her, Where is that 2-year-old boy? She said it was staying -- the child was maybe staying somewhere else, not with her.
When they come back to her, that`s when, suddenly, she doesn`t have answers. But it started with someone afraid, when someone is very pregnant, and then there`s no child and then they deny there`s a pregnancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors in this quiet neighborhood are in shock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inside this package, unfortunately, was the remains of a young boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe the mom`s my age. I can`t imagine...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They found the body of a dead 1-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops executed a search warrant at Hooks`s home, where they found the body of a child in a suspiciously wrapped package.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy. A 33-year-old mother now behind bars. And the allegations -- well, cops are looking into some very serious things. First of all, she was believed to be pregnant, and now there`s no baby. And in addition to that, another child, her 2-year-old son -- well, cops say that he was wrapped in a blanket with plastic found around him, a dead corpse found of her 2-year-old son in a storage unit in her house.
Let`s go to Caryn Stark, psychologist. Caryn, what kind of a woman, a mother, would do this? At least so far, it looks like and they found, sadly, little 2-year-old Justice. There he was in the corner in a storage unit, body wrapped -- and it looks like he had been there for some time.
What kind of a mother would do that? And then it looks like there`s these allegations -- it looked like she was pregnant, and now there`s no baby. Who knows what happened to this other child.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: You`re talking about a mother, Rita, who has absolutely no compassion, doesn`t have the kind of motherly instinct that we would expect a mother to have. And it`s very inauspicious because this little boy sounds like he was confined in his corner, only able to move his legs. And so right there, you`re seeing a situation of abuse.
And she is someone who didn`t care about her child. That`s very obvious because he may as well have been a piece of furniture, wrapped up and put in plastic and stored in a storage area, not a child. There`s no love there. There`s no concern or care for the vulnerability. And I have no doubt that something is wrong with the child she was pregnant with.
COSBY: Susan Moss, family law attorney, it does look like there`s a pattern of something had happened there, and again, the medical examiner saying in this case, Susan, that the son -- this is the 2-year-old that we know, apparently, authorities are saying was found, again, wrapped up in a blanket and then wrapped in plastic, found in a storage unit in her house, and looks like it had been there for a long time, which is so heart- breaking, this poor little boy.
We know about that. And then, apparently, the roommate, the last sighting, according to the roommate -- he`s in a location in a blanket. Only his feet are moving. This just sounds terrible, Susan.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Did this mother think that this child would stay in storage forever? She probably even put in mothballs! But the reason why this woman is going to be convicted is her own statements. She very specifically said that this child was staying with a very specific person, and when the police do their due diligence, they`re going to learn that this is absolutely not true! So she has tried to create an alibi that is going to bury her!
COSBY: Let`s go to the defense attorneys, Peter Odom, Darryl Cohen, defense attorneys. Peter, you know, look, this is just -- right now, the boy, the cops are saying it looks like it is the boy, little 2-year-old Justice, who`s been there some time, again, wrapped up in a blanket, then plastic around him. Looks like his body has been there in a storage unit. And then there`s this other baby that it looks like she was carrying. That`s no longer there. Who knows what`s happened. Give it your best shot, Peter.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s very interesting that you and other people on your show have convicted this woman of murder of two children. Police haven`t even charged her with murder of one child. It also seems...
COSBY: They have not. They have not. And I have used the word "allegedly," Peter! But I will also tell you, when you`ve got a dead baby that looks like it`s her son, and she says first he`s staying with friends -- guess what? He`s not staying with friends. And the roommate last says he`s in a blanket, his legs are barely moving. You telling me this is a good mother?
ODOM: Well, that`s not what I said. But they have a stronger -- they had a stronger case against Casey Anthony than they have against this mother. It`s totally circumstantial. And I`ve got two words for you based on this evidence -- not guilty.
COSBY: You have got to be kidding me, Peter Odom! You have got to be kidding me! If they can 100 percent ID that that`s the son, and it looks like they`re going to -- you`ve got people who say they knew she was pregnant. You`ve got her lying to the cops, by her own admission. She has a very tough row to hoe, and I think those serious charges are coming soon, Peter. You do, too. You know that!
ODOM: You should call the police because they haven`t reached that conclusion yet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The home owner became suspicious of Karen Hooks`s behavior.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) thought about or talked about going up to see him, well, today would be a bad day. He`s in school and this and that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the baby`s death is currently being considered a homicide by blunt force trauma to the head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy. Be sure to follow us, everybody, on Facebook and Twitter.
Also, we are taking your calls. Let`s go to Luz from Pennsylvania, who`s on the line. Luz, what`s your question tonight?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you, Rita?
COSBY: Good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is this. The body was wrapped up in a blanket, a body (INAUDIBLE) decomposed, the smells. Didn`t nobody reported any kind of odor?
COSBY: You know, Luz, it`s so funny. It astounds me, sadly, and just shocks me that nobody seemed to report anything, an odor, all these other things.
But let me just go to Robyn Walensky. Robyn, it doesn`t sound like anybody reported anything for months, for over a year?
WALENSKY: It`s crazy, Rita, because decomposing bodies smell. And you know what strikes me about this, to the caller`s question, is that we saw with Caylee Anthony, unlike in that situation where she was decomposing in 100-degree heat in the trunk, we believe, of Casey Anthony`s car, and then the body being dumped in a swamp -- and that case was DNA light (ph), Rita, where in this case, you have a controlled environment, a storage facility.
And anyone who`s ever kept anything in a storage facility, especially wrapped up, you know that there`s going to be a plethora of DNA. You`re going to have fingerprints. You`re going to have the blanket. You`re going to have fibers. This is a great case for the prosecutor in this case, if it`s going to go that far, because it`s a controlled environment. It`s a storage locker, not a swamp. No water involved here, Rita.
COSBY: Absolutely. And John DePetro, how far away is this storage unit? Where exactly is it in the house?
DEPETRO: Rita, it`s right down in the basement. Now, Robert Mason, who owns the home, the landlord, he apparently claimed that there was no odor, that he had no suspicion.
I do know that the mystery woman, the roommate, at some point, this Karen Hooks claimed that there was some kind of flood in the basement. So you wonder -- and this is just speculation, but if that was somehow going to be used as a disguise, if anyone ever questioned possibly some kind of odor coming out of the basement where the storage area was, if it had to do with some kind of mold of some kind.
But I highly doubt that if you had a young child wrapped in clear plastic and blankets, that it would be the equivalent of just a flooded basement and some of the odor of mold that could come from...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Delaware mom faces charges after the body of a young boy was found in a wrapped bag in a storage area in her home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the baby`s death is currently being considered a homicide by blunt force trauma to the head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police began investigating when child services was notified that Hooks` 2-year-old son had not been seen since last August.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy. And 2-year-old Justice, this beautiful little boy, well, his body was found in a storage area in mommy`s home, in the room where she was living, and it looks like he was there dead for a long time. And guess what? Mommy was also pregnant, and now is not pregnant. And there is no baby to speak of. Lots of questions in this case.
Let`s go to John DePetro, host with WPRO Radio. Tell us again what happened in this case from the beginning, John.
JOHN DEPETRO, WPRO RADIO: Rita, this is a red flag where someone maybe sees someone pregnant, then they`re not pregnant. So Karen Hooks was living with this 73-year-old Robert Mason, and a tipster, an unknown tipster contacts authorities, and says there is a woman living there, Karen Hooks, who seemingly was pregnant in June, and then there`s no baby.
And when you think of the preparation, Rita, of the amount of buildup to a young life coming forward, and the birth of a child and all the preparation, and the mom casually tells authorities and tells the police, no, I`m not pregnant. She denies she`s pregnant.
Well, the police also hear about this missing child, this 2-year-old boy. They asked the mother, she says the child`s staying with a friend. The police obtain a search warrant, and what do they find? The remains of a child, baby in storage, right in the basement area. This is storage area where the mother was living, and right in that area they find what they believe to be the remains of possibly could be 2-year-old Justice Hooks, and the body decomposing, wrapped in a clear bag, in blankets. It`s unimaginable that the mother had nothing to say, seemingly just told the police, initially, didn`t know anything about it.
COSBY: Unbelievable. C.W. Jensen, retired police captain. C.W., I would think that there`s also a lot of things for cops to follow up on in this case. They find, sadly, little 2-year-old Justice, there he is wrapped in a blanket, wrapped also with plastic, who knows how long his body has been there. The medical examiner can at least put a ballpark on that. They`ve got the blanket, they`ve got the body, sadly. They`ve got the storage area, which by the way I`m told is sort of the same area where she was basically living and sleeping. And then they`ve got a lot of other pieces within the house. There were other people in the house when she was in this home, and this is where the body is found. What do you follow up on as a cop, C.W.?
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, one of the things that I always said when I first sat down to do a homicide case, and I think my esteemed attorneys would agree with this -- what you do is you look for a motive. You know, if my neighbor`s son is killed, what`s my motive in that? Does he have a motive? He probably does. So that`s one of the things I`m going to look at.
And remember how circuitous this thing was. Somebody came and told authorities something was going on wrong at this house. And how many cases have I done where it was just something simple like this? Doesn`t smell good, doesn`t look good, you guys need to check this out. And so somebody, they start digging around a little bit, and what happens? They find a body of a dead little boy. And I`m going to tell you this, they`re going to find a body of another dead little baby down the road.
COSBY: And of course, we hope that that does not happen. But if you look at what happened to her son, this is just so heartbreaking.
Robyn Walensky, do we have any idea of a motive, of why this woman would do this to her son? It looks like allegedly she killed her son, this is the 2-year-old, and then again she`s pregnant, we don`t know where that baby is. Is there any sense of what could have driven this mother to do this?
WALENSKY: No idea, Rita, other than the fact that there are some extremely unstable people roaming this planet, unfortunately.
Detectives here are going to have a take a look and take a DNA sample from the 73-year-old landlord. They`re also going to have to interview neighbors to see her circle of men. Who else was this woman keeping company with, and then compare and contrast the DNA samples to find out who were the fathers of these two children.
Lastly, Rita, I will tell you that what comes to mind in terms of the pregnancy is the prom mom. Remember a few years back, there was this girl in New Jersey, who was pregnant, concealed it, only a few people knew. She went to her prom and gave birth in the bathroom, and then dumped the body in the trash. This could be a similar situation, and I agree with the last guest who said that they are going to find the remains of this fetus from the second pregnancy.
COSBY: It`s just so upsetting and so infuriating that anyone could do this to a 2-year-old boy and to a newborn child. Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner. The young son, who was found, again, and it just breaks my heart to talk about it, here he is, he was found wrapped up in a blanket, with plastic around him in a storage area. And this is his mother, who it looks like authorities are clearly looking at. She`s not charged with it yet. But there`s word that probably more charges are coming soon.
Dr. Michelle Dupre, he didn`t die from starvation, or something like that, which is also horrible. In this case, and let`s go back if we could to the graphic, because he died from what the medical examiner has determined was blunt force trauma to the head. How can they prove that?
DUPRE: Yes, Rita. What we do is we look at the skull. And when we talk about blunt force, we`re talking about an object striking the skull. We`ll find a depressed fracture. Oftentimes we even find a pattern injury in the skull that can give us a clue as to what weapon may have been used.
COSBY: Darryl Cohen, defense attorney, blunt force trauma to the head. Again, the roommate, apparently last time -- anyone has seen this boy, he`s there, and she says, he`s going to have to go somewhere, he`s seen in a blanket, his legs are the only thing that`s moving. Mommy`s there. Claims this story of a flood, comes up with this story that, you know, the son is going to suddenly have to go visit a friend. I mean, this is just -- it stinks in every direction, Darryl.
COHEN: Rita, we know one thing for sure. We know we have a dead 2- year-old who was murdered. We don`t know that she was pregnant. We know that someone said she was pregnant. And for people to jump to conclusion--
COSBY: What about the 2-year-old? Darryl, what about the 2-year-old?
COHEN: The 2-year-old is dead.
COSBY: Her dead son, found in--
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Thanks for the revelation, Darryl, he`s dead.
COHEN: Thank you, Rita.
COSBY: And he`s also in her house!
COHEN: In her house, it doesn`t mean that she killed him. There was- -
COSBY: She lied to the cops. She made up a fake story--
COHEN: That`s unusual? It`s unusual for somebody to lie? It happens all the time.
COSBY: Guess what she lied about? She lied about her son`s whereabouts.
COHEN: So what?
COSBY: She didn`t lie about the weather today, Darryl, she lied about her dead son.
COHEN: Perhaps she was afraid, Rita.
COSBY: Perhaps she`s afraid because--
COHEN: When people are afraid, they do things they don`t want to do. Sorry, you`re off base.
COSBY: Darryl, guess what? You know what, Darryl? You`re off base because there`s a dead boy and you don`t seem to care.
COHEN: There`s a dead boy, but you don`t convict someone of doing something unless and until the evidence is there beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt, period.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mom refused to tell cops the child`s whereabouts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inside this package, unfortunately--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops found the body of a child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The baby`s death is currently being considered a homicide by blunt force trauma to the head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Based on the presence of a skull fracture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace. Let`s take your calls, everybody. David from Canada, you`re on the line, what is your question, David?
CALLER: Rita, you are awesome, you tell it like it is. And I love that.
COSBY: Thank you, thank you.
CALLER: Big fan. My question is, do we know if this woman has a history of any mental disorders?
COSBY: That`s a great question. Robyn Walensky, any history with her? Can she claim she snapped? Drugs? Anything there?
WALENSKY: Nothing documented that I know of, Rita. But obviously there`s something wrong. We do know that she was on unemployment assistance and that the money had run out because the landlord claims that she had stopped paying rent. So I sort of question, if you don`t have any money coming in, and you owe money, who did she owe money to? Maybe that`s a motive for murder as well.
COSBY: Susan Moss, family law attorney, victims advocate, you hear all this, you hear the financial things, the other things, Susan, too. Karen Hooks, this is the woman, this is the 33-year-old. What I find interesting, Susan, so far she is charged with abuse of a corpse, that`s a maximum one year. She`s not charged with the boy`s death, and I say yet, because I think that`s coming. But she has a very high bond, $100,000 bond. What are they waiting for? I think, Susan, they are probably waiting -- the cops are saying in press releases, they`re saying that it`s Justice. But they`re waiting for sort of official confirmation from the medical examiner. Don`t you think -- I think that that`s what`s waiting. What do you think?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. They`re doing more forensic reports. Look, the motive isn`t obtuse, it`s child abuse. You have the person who lives there.
COSBY: And by the way, Susan, I agree with you. It doesn`t matter what, the end result is horrible. What bothers me so much, Susan, about this case, and obviously you too and I`m sure so many folks listening out there, you hear this, the poor boy is sitting there, near the bed -- this is the last time he was seen, I don`t know why nobody reported it for a year. And he`s wrapped up in a blanket and his legs are barely moving. What staggers is that somebody at that point didn`t call child services or the cops that day, that minute. And then a year or so goes by, and guess what, his body is found wrapped up in a blanket, and he`s dead. That`s staggering.
MOSS: And that`s just the beginning of the evidence. Remember, when they started to look at this body through the X-ray, they said that this 2- year-old child looked like a 1-year-old child. That probably means that this child was not adequately fed. Apparently she didn`t give him porridge, but she put him in storage. I mean, the reality is, when you look at the forensics, when you look at the history of child abuse, you look at the lies to the police, it`s all going to come together, and there will be a conviction.
COSBY: Let`s go to defense attorneys. Peter Odom, Darryl Cohen. Peter, I think that a lot more charges are coming, and there are some very serious questions here. Don`t you think, Peter?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Are there questions? Sure, there are questions. But what I`m encouraging you not to do, Rita, is just to jump to conclusion that this is murder. I`m interested in finding out what the 73-year-old who was living in the house has to say.
COSBY: And Peter, I agree with you, by the way I think the 73-year- old I think could be very key in this case. But--
ODOM: Or other boyfriends.
COSBY: Other boyfriends. The other thing I think is also interesting, Peter, the 73-year-old did not report an odor. If the body was there, I mean, there`s some interesting questions.
But I will also say, this boy, this 2-year-old boy, was found wrapped up in a blanket, and again, it sounds like he was thin, as Susan was saying, but also he died from blunt force trauma to the head, Peter. Somebody killed him, and mom is saying he suddenly went with a friend and then changed the story, oh, it`s a flood, it`s this or that. There`s some huge issues here, Peter.
ODOM: Yes, Casey Anthony, it`s Casey Anthony all over again, it`s a very circumstantial case. And police haven`t put it together, haven`t tied it up yet.
COSBY: By the way, Peter, Peter, I think they`re waiting to get it all nice and sewn up in a nice little package, they got her behind bars for $100,000 bond. It`s a high bond for this. So I think they`re piecing it together. And guess what, they`ve got the place, they`ve got people, they`ve got all these other things, they`ve got a lot of nuggets here, and they`re going to get a lot of information if the child is in the room where she`s sleeping, Peter.
ODOM: Right, but it`s going to take -- I mean, I understand you`re saying it`s very suspicious, but the police have not connected all the dots yet. They`re hoping to do that. They might do it. But at this point, they haven`t done it yet.
COSBY: And Peter, I bet you it`s coming. What, the baby just shows up in her room? Give me a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace. Let`s go to the callers. Kathy from California, you`re on the line, what`s your question, Kathy?
CALLER: Hi, Rita. Two things. Was Ms. Hooks employed, and was she receiving any welfare assistance for the child?
COSBY: Great question. John DePetro, do you know the answers to that?
DEPETRO: Rita, apparently, she was getting unemployment, but then when that ran out, that`s when she started that romantic relationship with the 73-year-old landlord. So it sounds like probably a sex for free rent, which is pathetic in itself. But no, we don`t know of any employment history.
You know, Rita, one of the most disturbing things here, is let`s face it, what do we put in storage in the basement? We put junk that we don`t want anymore. And that`s what`s so sad. This was a baby found in storage. I`d hate to think of a Karen Hooks yard sale. It`s so pathetic of the people who would love a little beautiful child like that, and instead a horrifying discovery by police of finding the decomposing remains of a little 1- or 2-year-old male child.
COSBY: It is heartbreaking. C.W. Jensen, it must have been just very difficult, even for law enforcement, to stumble on the scene of this little 2-year-old boy.
JENSEN: You know, one of the things that I always tell people -- and this happened to me when I worked homicide -- I had a brand-new baby girl that grew up in the five or six years I worked that division. And homicide is a tough gig. And so these poor officers, I just think about them all the time, because they go home, they just want to take a shower and they want to lay down in bed and try to sleep, and they can`t because all they can think about is putting somebody in jail that`s responsible for these horrible crimes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body of a dead 1-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A young boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was last seen almost a year ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is approximately 1 year of age.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s being considered a homicide by blunt force trauma to the head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And let`s go back to Robyn Walensky, anchor and reporter with "The Blaze." Robyn, I think that this landlord person could be very critical, could be key in this case. I mean, what`s interesting, not only first of all this poor boy is found wrapped up, his corpse there, of course the other baby possibly missing. We aren`t sure whether she was pregnant, these reports.
The landlord I think is important. We don`t know if he was romantically involved, we don`t know if he saw, you know, if there was anything, but we do know that apparently he said that he believes she was pregnant and not pregnant, and then he also doesn`t smell an odor. I think he`s an interesting person for cops to at least spend a lot of time questioning, don`t you think?
WALENSKY: Yes. He`s key, Rita, to the whole case. He is going to know who was in and out of the house. Is it his DNA? We don`t know if he`s the baby daddy to baby one or baby two. And his observations are critical.
Also, Rita, I just want to end by saying that the bones of this child, the X-ray, the size of the bones and if they were broken is going to speak very clearly to what the life of this child was like. Was he malnourished and was there a pattern of abuse? Were there other broken bones? That evidence is going to be key. The forensics hold the clues to this, Rita.
COSBY: I absolutely agree with you, Robyn.
Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, if there was a history of abuse, you know, severe beatings, bruising -- in this case we know that there was blunt force trauma to the head, is what`s caused this child`s death. How much -- say the body is decomposed as we know for it seems like some period of time. How much would we be able to tell of past history, if there was past child abuse?
DUPRE: Rita, that`s one of the things that we always look for, and that is a history of previously broken and healed or rehealing bones. And that always gives us a clue. We can tell if bones have been broken in the past and have been re-healed.
COSBY: And how long -- say the body has been there for a long, long time. Obviously it makes it much more difficult. The bones still would be substantive, but other things may not be visible, correct?
DUPRE: That`s correct.
COSBY: Let`s go to the callers. Let`s got to Mary Ann from Tennessee, who`s on the line. What`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Rita.
COSBY: Hi, Mary Ann. What`s your question tonight?
CALLER: OK. I have two questions. No. 1, can`t they find out whether or not she has been pregnant by medically taking her to an OB/GYN?
COSBY: And Mary Ann, let me get your answer real quick. C.W. Jensen, don`t you think that they can figure that out pretty quick?
JENSEN: Well, it`s best to ask the doctor. My brother is an OB/GYN, and I believe there are some things that happen to a woman that maybe stay in their system for a while longer, but as an investigator, that`s certainly something I would want to ask the medical examiner and say, are there going to be some hormones and different things released into the body that I`m going to see several weeks later?
COSBY: All right. And everybody, tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Specialist Samuel Watts, 20 years old from Wheaton, Illinois. He died in Maryland from wounds sustained in Afghanistan. He was awarded the Bronze Star, the Purple Heart, Afghanistan Campaign Medal and Global War on Terrorism Service Medal. He enjoyed spending time with friends and was an avid BMX (ph) biker. He leaves behind his parents, Susan and Thomas, sisters Sarah and Abby and his brother, Andy. Samuel Watts, a true American hero.
And I want to thank all of you for your sweet words and e-mails about the passing of my father, Lieutenant Richard Cosby. He fought in World War II, and in his honor, we are raising money for the troops. Raising money for the USO. You can go to my Web site, quiethero.org, and click on the words "quiet hero" or "the USO box." Be sure to say "in memory of Richard Cosby."
And tonight, I also want to give a big shout-out to some great folks, Bill Bromley (ph) and the great folks at Indigo Landing Restaurant in Alexandria, Virginia. There they are. They are big supporters of the troops and our veterans. And they have a postcard view of Washington, D.C., all the monuments, and they are huge American patriots.
I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace. "Dr. Drew" is up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, everybody, 8:00 p.m. sharp. And until then, good night, everybody.
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