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Nancy Grace

Letters From Travis?

Aired January 16, 2013 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet up on a work trip in Vegas and they fall hard, but when the flame burns out and they break up, she then moves 300 miles to get back together, to pursue him, even converting to Mormonism to get her man.

But then 30-year-old Travis Alexander found slumped over dead in the shower of his five-bedroom home, shot, stabbed 29 times, violence so brutal, it resembles a mob hit. And just hours after Arias stabs Travis to death in the shower, she has sex contact with a brand-new boyfriend, literally hopping on top of him while Travis`s body is decomposing in the damp shower stall.

Testimony reveals 27-year-old Arias has wild sex with Travis all day long, even photographing the sex. But then, just minutes after, she slashes his throat.

Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, we learn Arias returns her rental car covered in stains resembling, quote, "Kool-Aid," with all the floor mats gone.

And in a torpedo to the state, will a series of letters, allegedly from Travis Alexander, set Jodi Arias free?


JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: If I was trying to -- trying to kill somebody, I would use gloves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) you said (INAUDIBLE) plan this out perfectly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was not a good lie.

ARIAS: If Travis were here today, he would tell you that it wasn`t me. I have to maintain my innocence! I can`t admit to doing something that I haven`t done!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was she saying? You didn`t know what she was saying.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want you to sit here and tell me a lie and lie.

ARIAS: There`s no reason I would ever want to hurt him!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seemed like the reason they broke up was because they didn`t trust each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My job is to speak for Travis right now. Everything Travis is telling me is that, Jodi did this to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) he showed up and was telling us that he had broken up with Jodi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis didn`t want their relationship to be public.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the next day, he got in his car and noticed that all four tires were slashed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no way anybody else...

ARIAS: He never raped me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How was she going to get you? Did she have a weapon?

ARIAS: She had a knife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said she had a gun before.

ARIAS: I don`t know if she had a gun. I think -- I`m guessing.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, we learn Arias returns her rental car covered in stains resembling, quote, Kool-Aid, with all the floor mats gone. And in a torpedo to the state tonight, will a series of letters allegedly from Travis Alexander set Jodi Arias free?

We are there at the courthouse in Phoenix and taking your calls. First of all, straight out to Beth Karas, she and Jean Casarez coming straight out of the courtroom. More Jodi Arias caught on tape.

What happened in court today, Beth?

BETH KARAS, LEGAL ANALYST, "IN SESSION": Well, jurors heard about the rental car that you just talked about, and they also heard from a police officer in Utah who stopped her just hours after she killed Travis Alexander. He`s in the bathroom. She`s up with the new guy, Ryan Burns. This is the next day.

And he stops her -- for the first time in his 13 years on patrol, he`s never seen an upside-down license plate, and that`s what she had on her car, and only one plate. She said, Oh, my friends must have been playing a joke on me. Of course, the state will argue that was one of her efforts to avoid detection, or at least easy detection, to have the plate upside-down and not as easily read, in case anyone were looking for her.

They also saw the rest of that interrogation tape from the day after she was arrested. She continued to deny having anything to do with it. But she did say, Nancy, If I had it in me to kill him, the least I could do would be to do it humanely and quickly, because his death was anything but quick.

GRACE: OK, everybody. Let`s hear it from the horse`s mouth. Here`s Jodi Arias caught on tape.


ARIAS: I just -- I just see -- like, I`ve seen "The Sopranos" and they`re not mafia or anything, but you know, I just honestly -- there`s a part of me inside that thinks they`re never going to come after my family. OK, if you don`t believe me, that`s OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m trying to. I`m trying really hard.

ARIAS: I`m just saying that, you know, it sounds to me like -- like I`m already in the system, pretty far in. I`m not getting out anytime soon. And as long as the rap falls on me, I think that...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not good. Don`t do this.

ARIAS: No, I`m just saying I think that as long as there`s less of a chance that my little brother is going to be hurt or my mom or my dad or my sister that live there.

He wasn`t really moving, though. He was just staying kind of still on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then what happened?

ARIAS: Well, as soon as he said, Go get help, I turned around and I - - they were there and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were they?

ARIAS: They were in the bathroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where at (INAUDIBLE) out in the hallway or in the bathroom?

ARIAS: The girl was in the hallway, kind of, and the guy was more toward in the bedroom, but like, still in the bathroom, like, on the tile carpet area right there where it starts.


ARIAS: And he started coming toward the bathroom, too, and I...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you do? What happened? What happened, Jodi? What did you see?

ARIAS: I chickened out like a little bitch!


GRACE: Jodi Arias caught on tape. Now, you see how her clothing has changed.

Jean Casarez, this is after just one night behind bars? She spends the night, she thinks about the last story she gave, that she wasn`t there. She is confronted with DNA evidence showing that she was there, and this is the story she concocts overnight? One night behind bars cracks her?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": She had to find something because in that first interrogation, not only was there DNA evidence, a palm print, but she saw the pictures, the pictures that showed her right there. So she had to think up something. And day two she admitted, I was there, but it was intruders that did everything.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Odom, death penalty-qualified prosecutor, Peter Odom, defense attorney, joining me out of Atlanta.

Eleanor, I`ve been thinking about this a lot. In one of those photos, you see Travis Alexander crumpled down. He`s dying or dead. His life`s blood is flowing out of him. And inadvertently, you catch Jodi Arias`s foot and pants leg in the photo.

I`m going to go back to Beth and Jean on this, but the cop says, Look, here`s your foot. This is your leg. Aren`t these your pants? And much like the naked photos of herself, she goes, Hmm. Now, in the naked photos, she says, That does look a little bit like me. And this one, she goes, Well, you know what? I do have some pants almost just like that, except -- I don`t know, she said the zipper`s over here or the stitching is different. It`s her legs dressed.

What I`m saying -- where`s Eleanor, Peter? What I`m saying, Eleanor, is after all this wild, crazy sex they`ve had all day long, OK, he`s in the shower, obviously in the afterglow of all that crazy love, getting more photos taken of himself and his biceps, he`s looking all sultry, she`s dressed, Eleanor. She`s totally dressed.

Why is she dressed? Because she is concealing a gun and a butcher knife. Her lover still thinks they`re having a romantic interlude. He`s in the shower naked, doing whatever. She`s totally dressed. She`s packing, Eleanor. That shows premeditation, that one photo of her wearing clothes.

ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, you`re exactly right. And what else does it show you? It shows you she`s going to make a quick getaway because she`s dressed. She`s ready to go. So she has thought this all through, not only the knife that she`s got, the gun that she`s got, but how she`s going to get away and get away fast. So that`s a great piece of the puzzle to put into the evidence.

GRACE: Peter?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s just one of many possibilities. It also could be exactly as her attorney laid out in opening statement, that he came at her and she had to defend herself. And you know, Nancy, which version the jury ends up buying is going to completely depend on how convincing...

GRACE: Wait a minute! Whoa! He came at her? Why was she dressed?

PETER ODOM: Nancy, look, there were two people there. Only one of them is alive to tell the story. And so we have to see at the end of this trial...

GRACE: What does that mean? What...

PETER ODOM: ... what the evidence shows.

GRACE: What does that say? That`s not an answer. Did you just...


GRACE: ... wait and see how it turns out?

PETER ODOM: Nancy, you`re asking me to speculate on what all this means.

GRACE: I could go ask somebody that on the street and they could tell me that much. Of course, we`ve got to wait and see how it turns out. But we are three attorneys. Between us, we`ve probably tried 300, 400 felony cases.

PETER ODOM: At least that. And so -- and so...

GRACE: He comes out of the bedroom completely naked. He`s in the shower. He`s all sultry. He`s getting photos of himself. Give me the shot of him showing his bicep. He thinks everything is fine and dandy. She`s fully dressed. She`s concealing a weapon, Peter.

I mean, it`s very apparent to me. Every piece of evidence speaks volumes. Here he is...

PETER ODOM: But the trial is not over yet.

GRACE: She`s dressed...

PETER ODOM: But the trial`s not over yet.

GRACE: Well, then, where is she get -- where did she get the knife? Where was it?

PETER ODOM: I don`t know, Nancy. You know, that`s going to be for her -- that`s going to be for the state to explain if they want to convict her of murder.

And I`ll tell you something. The state`s making a mistake here. The prosecutors in this case are -- she is calling the shots. They are chasing her agenda. Why don`t they get back to proving the evidence of murder against her, rather than chasing all her lies? She`s running this trial.

GRACE: You know what, Peter? That is a very astute observation. They are. She is playing "catch me if you can." But what they`re doing is laying a foundation of all her lies.

Back to the lawyers -- and also joining me, Mike Walker, senior editor "National Enquirer."

Before I go to Mike, very quickly back to you, Beth. It`s very important they show these lies. Explain.

KARAS: It`s very -- I couldn`t hear. It`s very important they show the what?

GRACE: Lies.

KARAS: I couldn`t hear you.

GRACE: Lies.

KARAS: Yes, well...

GRACE: She is lying about everything.

KARAS: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. She had so many opportunities when she was talking to the police on the telephone, before she was arrested, two days after she`s arrested, two different times, to say, look, you`ve got it wrong. This is not first degree murder. This man was abusing me. You need to understand what I was going through. And she doesn`t. She doesn`t do that ever. She changes her defense two years after she`s incarcerated.

GRACE: Out to Mike Walker, senior editor, "National Enquirer." Apparently, there is bombshell evidence lurking out there, letters, apparently, allegedly, from Travis Alexander that have been brought forth by whom?

MIKE WALKER, "NATIONAL ENQUIRER" (via telephone): Well, Nancy, Jodi Arias has tried to ensnare us, to drag us at "The National Enquirer" into her twisted scheme. What she has done is she has given us letters, and these letters are meant to portray or to trash Alexander`s reputation as a violent, sex-crazed deviant who abused her so horrifically, she was forced to kill him.

GRACE: Is she using her mother as part of this?

WALKER: Yes. Her mother came to us and said that Jodi wanted us to publicize these letters that were allegedly written by Travis Alexander in his own hand, and she had electronic copies of these letters.

GRACE: What do you mean electronic copies? What`s that, a photocopy?

WALKER: Yes. Like -- yes. And so we looked at the letters -- and obviously, I mean, this is a big murder case. Anything that, you know, is going to shed any light is interesting to us. We didn`t really believe this because the letters -- well, we`ll talk about the letters, what the letters contained later, but anyway...

GRACE: Do they portray...

WALKER: ... that`s what she wants us to do, publicize...

GRACE: ... Travis as some type of...

WALKER: ... these letters.

GRACE: ... a deviant and Jodi Arias is trying to get her mom to bring them to "The Enquirer" to publish?

WALKER: Yes. Her mom approached us. She was quite emotional. She was in tears. And her mom, I don`t think, knows what`s going on. She just said, Jodi wanted me to get these letters out to the public. I`m only doing this because she asked me to.

And she presumably has, says the mother, other letters in her possession, but she`s holding off on releasing them. And then the letters -- we saw the letters, and we realized what she was trying to do.



ARIAS: If I had planned to hurt him in any way -- I`m -- you know, I`m not the brightest person, but I -- I don`t think I could stab him. I think I would have to shoot him continuously until he was dead, if that were my intention. And again, I bring up the gloves again, that I would have to wear gloves because, I mean, I`m not too worried about prints (INAUDIBLE) all over anyway, but -- I would never stab him, if -- if I had it in me anyway (ph) to kill him...


GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. And with me, the senior editor of "The National Enquirer" that was approached by Jodi Arias`s mother, according to Mike Walker, who says they, Arias and her mother, wanted these letters, purportedly from Travis Alexander, to be published by "The National Enquirer."

I don`t have the letters. That`s going to be in your upcoming issue, I understand. But I have bits and pieces. In one of them, it says Alexander asked Arias to wear boys` briefs that he can rip off. OK.

WALKER: That`s right, Nancy.

GRACE: Next tidbit that I know, Alexander asks Arias to wear his shirt with engraved cufflinks -- his engraved cufflinks so he can see his initials while she performs oral sex on him.

In a March 2 alleged letter, Alexander admits he once hit Arias, quote, "in the face." In another alleged letter, Alexander claims that marrying Arias would help erase his, quote, "deviant thoughts."

You know what, Mike Walker? Please tell me that you are not going to publish this crock. I don`t believe one bit of this. Could they produce the letters so a handwriting comparison could be done?

WALKER: Well, yes. And let me just go back to what you say about the second letter. Speaking as a man, I find it very hard to believe that any man, you know, deviant, vicious, murdering killer, would say something as silly as, I want to you wear my cufflinks with my initials so I can look at my initials while you`re -- you know, I mean, it`s insane. It sounds like a girlie fashion thing to me. It sounds like something that a woman might write.

GRACE: Well, it`s something a 5th grade girl trying to write...


GRACE: ... a porn novel.

WALKER: Exactly, imaging how men are deviant. And let me tell you, if a guy was (ph) wanted to write something deviant in this kind of a situation, it would be a lot more shocking and brutal and direct than that.

GRACE: Well, Mike, did they ever produce the original letters?

WALKER: The original letters, they claim, have been destroyed.

GRACE: My, that`s convenient!

WALKER: They no longer exist. Yes. Yes.

GRACE: So you guys are not publishing this, are you?

WALKER: Well, you can`t publish what is not in existence. Well, we could -- we could publish the photocopies. We -- I don`t think that decision has been made yet. You know, this is a trial. We`re very careful with what we release.

GRACE: Well, you know what, Mike? If they were published, they would only show that Jodi Arias is trying to scheme and manipulate even from behind bars. It would, in my mind, paint her in a worse light.

Jean Casarez, what do you make of it?

CASAREZ: Well, let`s talk about the May 2nd letter because I don`t think you got to all of that. In that letter, Travis allegedly admits that he hit Jodi in the face, and he also says that marrying her would help -- and you just said this -- would erase the "deviant thoughts" that he had about her.

And so the defense believes that these are relevant because, there you go, there is the abuse that they have said was the reason why she had to fight back in self-defense. But the prosecution...

GRACE: Why are they just emerging during the trial, though, Jean? I think that this is a big fake. This is a trick by the defense, by Arias, to drag Travis Alexander through the mud!

CASAREZ: I think these letters emerged several years ago. I don`t think this is the first time. First time we have ever seen any content of those letters, yes. But I think these letters emerged in motions several years back.



ARIAS: A lot of people were dropping my name, and I said I`m not worried about it because I didn`t do it, I said, but it`s very much -- it`s hurting my reputation and it`s (INAUDIBLE) casting me in a bad light.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn`t be worrying about your reputation right now. I`d be worrying about the rest of your life. That means nothing. Absolutely nothing.

ARIAS: Well, my reputation will affect the rest of my life, so I am worried about my reputation.


GRACE: Back to Mike Walker, senior editor "National Enquirer." Mike, I`ll tell you why they want these letters, which I believe were faked, by the way -- why they want these letters to come in, because if they can get these letters in, that way, they can try to argue self-defense in front of the jury without Arias ever taking the stand.

WALKER: That`s a very good estimation, Nancy, because, right, it`s exactly that. This gives her chance for her Hail Mary, you know, He abused me, so I had to kill him in self-defense, defense.

And these letters -- I`m not sure, by the way. I want to make clear I`m not sure we`re not going to publish them. I`m just saying we have not yet. And as you know, there are -- or I think you know, we have -- there are other letters that we don`t have yet, but that Jodi Arias`s mother says she has.

GRACE: You know, it`s interesting that they`ve come to you guys to publish them. Why don`t they just try to get them in court? And if they haven`t been able to lay the proper foundation, they continue to try. Apparently, they`re trying to taint the jury pool.

WALKER: Well, yes. But do you know about the history of these letters? We discovered that they were, as someone just mentioned, in the case a couple of years ago, 2010.

GRACE: Right, they allegedly emerged back then, but now they`re trying to bring them in front of a jury.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened when the last picture was taken?

ARIAS: He was kneeling down in the shower. I don`t remember -- (INAUDIBLE) if this is his shower, and the sink is over here, I was, like, right here taking pictures. And I don`t really know what happened after that exactly, except I think he was shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were you?

ARIAS: If this is his shower and he`s sitting here, I was, like -- I was, like -- well, if this is his shower, he`s sitting here. I was, like, right here on my knees. And his bathtub is right here, and I was taking them here. And I was just going through the pictures, and I heard this loud ring. And I don`t really remember except that Travis was screaming. I think I got knocked out, but I don`t think I was out long.


GRACE: Out to Bonnie Druker, our team at the courthouse.

Bonnie, what is she talking about? So the first day she`s not there. She spends the night in jail. One night, one sleepover and she cracks and comes up with another story. You can see how defensive she is throughout the entire interrogation, now she is sitting in a fetal position, all curdled up against the interrogator.

Explain this story. Give it to me in a nutshell, Bonnie.

BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, I mean, in a nutshell she said that intruders broke in and they attacked Travis Alexander. They brought her to a different room. They attacked her. She heard him screaming and then she took off and didn`t call 911. She said she didn`t call 911 because she was scared that something would happen to her family if she said that this story had happened.

GRACE: OK. Beth Karas, when did the self-defense claim emerge?

BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Around June 22nd, 2010. It was after they attempted to get some evidence in and the state said, no, that`s not admissible unless it`s a suicide or an accident or self-defense. And lo and behold 10 days later they filed notice of self-defense so she never talked to the police and said, I did it but I did it in self-defense. It was her lawyers in June of 2010 who filed notice. I think she told experts, though, who evaluated her psychologically about how she killed him.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Lisa in Florida. Hi, Lisa. What`s your question?

LISA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi. I was just watching those interviews and I feel like Jodi is telling us a lot about how she murdered Travis because at first she says that there were two white male intruders and then she changed the story to a male and a female and I believe she is the, quote-unquote, female intruder and that is how she is telling us how it happened.

GRACE: You know what`s interesting about what you`re saying, Lisa in Florida, and I`m going to throw this to our psychologist, Kathryn Smerling.

Kathryn, I very often when assessing defendants` statements, I can see interspersed in the statement a confession, bits and pieces of the truth would be in their denial. Kind of what Lisa in Florida is saying, that the way she describes this ninja hit on Travis Alexander, I don`t think we ever get a motive or why they would kill him or anything like that. Of course she couldn`t make out their faces, but some of it is very revealing, Kathryn.

KATHRYN SMERLING, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. I agree with you, Nancy. She is a very shrewd sociopath. I don`t think -- I think she`s a very smart woman. I do not believe that she is naive or foolish in one -- in one bit of the way. She lives in her own reality and part of her own reality is a little bit of the truth. And that`s the way sociopaths work. They have a little bit of the truth. Then they grab on to that and they create something that works for them. She`s been able to manipulate and to be able to change her story depending on who her audience is.

She appears to be a wonderful actress who is methodical and well thought out and very shrewd. So, yes, there is a little bit of this reality in her sociopathic unreal world. Absolutely.

GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest. It`s Zion Lovinger. Zion, a very dear friend of the victim in this case, Travis Alexander. He knows Arias. Zion went on that Cancun trip that Travis was supposed to be on. Little did they know his body was decomposing in a shower stall while they were in Cancun.

Zion, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Zion, how did you know Travis Alexander? How would you describe him? And when did you meet Jodi Arias?

LOVINGER: I met Travis when I was about 17 years old. I had joined the company that he was working in and I looked up to Travis. I mean, he was -- I really admired him. He was very inspirational. He was -- he was able to connect and really help people. He helped me individually. So, yes, that would have been back in about 2002, I believe. I met Jodi --

GRACE: I was reading part of his blog, Zion, and I was very impressed about how he was changing his life and how he was trying to move forward in his life and to be the man he wanted to be. So how did you meet Arias and what was your impression of her?

LOVINGER: I actually met Jodi at her baptism when she joined the church, when she joined the LDS Church. She was -- she`s a conversationalist. She`s -- you know, she`s attractive. I think that made a difference -- you know, that impacted Travis. He -- I think he was flattered by the attention that Jodi gave to him. But I mean --


GRACE: What was she like? What were her interests?

LOVINGER: She was very into energies. You know, I think Jacob was on your show a while back and --

GRACE: What`s that?

LOVINGER: You know, I think Jacob was talking about how she was into Wicca and she was very into energies and positive energy and she was into a lot of self-help books and --

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Back it up, friend. Hold on. Hold on. What do you mean she was into energies?

LOVINGER: Energies, you know, like positive energies, negative energies, whatever you put out and get back. Things like that.

GRACE: But how are you into energies? How are you -- I`m into energies, what does that mean?

LOVINGER: Well, I don`t know how else to describe it other than --


I mean --

GRACE: Would she talk about it?

LOVINGER: That`s one of the things --

GRACE: Was she into Wicca, which is witchcraft?

LOVINGER: Yes, I had a couple of conversations with her, I remember, with her about her -- about her studies in Wicca, yes.

GRACE: Whoa.

LOVINGER: I don`t -- I don`t remember any of the details. I mean -- I mean to be honest, I don`t remember any of the details --


GRACE: OK. Think, think, use that noodle. Discussions about Wicca, now, see, that would stand out in my mind if suddenly somebody told me they were interested in witchcraft.

Now, see, when I was talking to Travis` other friend the other night and he was telling me this, I thought that he -- did say that he saw it on her social media page, and that there were some creepy shots of her and it mentioned witchcraft. I did not know that she actually confirmed verbally.

OK. You`re creeping me out, control room.

I didn`t know that she actually was having conversations that she was for sure into Wicca, witchcraft.

LOVINGER: You know, she made it pretty clear that that was something from her past and something that she wasn`t practicing. You know, I -- honestly, Jodi`s issues run much deeper than Wicca. This woman --

GRACE: What do you mean?

LOVINGER: -- is nuts. Well, I`m --


The psychiatrist who was just talking on, you know, she nailed it on the head. This woman is a sociopath.

GRACE: You mentioned that Travis could sometimes get defensive when anyone questioned him about Jodi Arias, questioned whether they should be together. When did that finally wear off? The second time she slashed his tires?

LOVINGER: You know, I actually don`t remember saying that, but I know that has been mentioned by other guests that you`ve had. At that time I had moved out to Utah. When things really went sour between Jodi and Travis, I had moved out to Utah from -- that would have been about February of 2008. And so I was not aware of how toxic the relationship had become at that point.

GRACE: Why do you believe that Alexander fell for her to start with?

LOVINGER: I think it`s important to understand, you know, where Travis came from. And to give an example just in high school, you know, he was not popular. He was picked on. You know, his clothes didn`t fit right. His pants were flooding and he was not a confident person, and to go from where he -- you know, to come from where he cam from, and then to have the success that he had, and to then start getting the attention that he began to get.

Jodi, you know, she made -- number one, she was accessible to him and she`d really -- and she made herself accessible to him. She`s attractive. She got attention from others. And -- yes, I think -- I think Travis was flattered by all that attention.


GRACE: Welcome back. We`re taking your calls. Colin in Washington.

Hi, Colin, what`s your question?

COLIN, CALLER FROM WASHINGTON: Well, I have four brief questions. I`ll try to be as brief as I can but --


COLIN: Her lying and having to defend herself with all the outcome of her talking about -- with the detective, her defense wounds, did they even know about those and then you guys are now saying it`s two years later for the self-defense. I mean --


COLIN: That it came to fruition. So -- I mean, how can you defend yourself if you`re naked in the shower? I mean, you don`t -- you don`t -- I`m sorry.

GRACE: OK. Hold on, Colin in Washington. Let me make sure I understand your questions. You`re saying at the time she was interrogated by police she didn`t mention self-defense and why.

COLIN: Yes. Yes.


GRACE: OK. Hold Colin in Washington, and I`ll come back to him for his next question.

Matt Zarrell, did she ever mention self-defense or defensive wounds on her hands during the tapes?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Yes, she did mention cuts on her hands, but she gave numerous different excuses for why she had the cuts on her hands including cutting her hand on a glass at Travis Alexander`s home, getting scratches on her hands from a cat, and the new story is she got injured by -- on her hands by these intruders that came in and killed Travis Alexander.

GRACE: And I`m sure, Matt Zarrell, by the time the trial is over she will claim that she had the scratches due to self-defense.

And keep Colin in Washington, please.

Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, toxicologist joining me out of Madison Heights, Michigan.

Dr. Morrone, please explain to me your theory what was happening when Travis Alexander was shot in the face.

DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: What`s really important is that a lot of the medical examiners have established that the shot came after all the stab wounds, but what is interesting, and Dr. Horn is very specific in his autopsy, from Maricopa County, and he says that the gunshot wound is from right to left and it`s downward.

You can never shoot anybody in the head going from one side to the other and down unless they are on the ground and you are over them, shooting them as you`re standing. And there`s no gunshot wound surrounded by gunpowder, so she was a couple feet away. That is not a defensive wound and that is very important that -- if we`ve missed it in the last week.

GRACE: So Colin in Washington, that one thing, in addition to the nine stab wounds in the back show this is not self-defense.

All right, what`s your next question, Colin?

COLIN: The rental car company, I mean, wouldn`t it raise a red flag, no pun intended, for the car rental associate or manager that the seats were not stained with Kool-Aid but they were stained with blood and so have the police investigated the car rental place at all?

GRACE: Good question. Hold. Beth Karas, response?

KARAS: We don`t have any information that they actually did some forensic testing on those stains. I mean, the car rental company is not under investigation. But maybe that`s to come in the case. However, now that she`s admitting that she did it it`s not that big a deal.

GRACE: Colin, I agree with Beth, and the reason that they were not interrogated at the time, the car rental place had no idea. They thought it was Kool-Aid. They had no idea it was blood. It wasn`t incumbent upon them to forensically test the car, so they just cleaned the car, got new mats and went on with it. It was only later that it became more critical.

OK. What`s your next question?

COLIN: I hate to say that I`m just being judgmental because I think she`s guilty as sinned, no matter -- she`s fatal attraction woman, you know, just look really terrible but, don`t you think that this is all premeditated because of the stalking and the escalating of her attitude or slashing the tires? The jealousy of the new girlfriend that he had? That`s the one question.

The second part of that is, don`t you think, you know, she just wanted the lavish lifestyle and his money and so she can -- still continue to, you know, go on doing what she wanted, but she`s just basically a sexual deviant sociopath?

GRACE: You know, Colin, I think that it was more than just the money that he had. Now he came from nothing and you heard his close friend Zion Lovinger describing him in school. He was the nerd that everybody picked on and made fun of. You know, when he came above that and went beyond that and became successful, very handsome young man, had achieved so much.

I think that in her mind she wanted to own that -- own him and everything about him. He was an object to her. She didn`t love him, Colin. Or she could never have hurt him the way that she did.

As far as premeditation, Colin, premeditation under the law can be formed in an -- in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, in the time it takes you to raise a gun and pull the trigger. My best example that I would give to juries is it does not require a long, drawn-out period of time, just poisoning someone over a period of months. It can be just like that.

But in this case you see her enter the home with a stolen weapon. You see her in that bathroom concealing a weapon and a knife. And the way we know that, Jean Casarez, is because of the time stamps on the photos. She`s taking pictures of him in the shower and within less than a minute he`s under attack. There`s no time for -- to go run, grab a kitchen knife or find a gun. She`s got it on her somewhere.

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": She -- that was so astute, Nancy, of you to think about what is the obvious that she had those clothes on at the time of the shower time. But the premeditation in this case really far exceeds any trial that I can think of that I have covered in the last 11 years because it begins back in Yreka and even before June 2nd because the plans are made and developed.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want me to believe that somebody else was there, you have to show me. You have to explain to me what happened. Otherwise, it was just you.


GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Angie in Kentucky. Hi, Angie. What`s your question?

ANGIE, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Yes. I have a question and a comment.

GRACE: Mm-hmm.

ANGIE: Where`s her family? Do -- has she ha d history of mental illness? And do you think that in situations like this, this is why we need a stronger mental evaluation before they`re able to purchase guns?

GRACE: Well, Angie in Kentucky, she stole the gun from her grandfather. So it was not a gun that she purchased herself. But I think there should be more of a screening process before you buy a gun. But that`s just me. But I`m a victim of gun violence. So that`s where I`m coming from.

Her mom and sister have been in the courtroom. There`s no caution she had a mental history other than one time she said she cracked up over another man. Now I don`t know what that means. She was never under any medication, had treatment, nothing that we know of right now.

Out to you. Beth Karas, did she sit like that throughout the entire second day of interrogation, all curled up?

KARAS: Well -- well, once she starts talking about the two intruders, yes. It`s interesting. It would be interesting to see what a body language expert would say about it because she`s, like, creating this barrier. She`s kind of getting drawn into herself. She even has her head down buried between her knees at one point when she`s crying and saying -- and talking about how the intruders did it.

But you have to believe there`s a little truth in what she`s saying when she`s talking about he was bleeding everywhere, he was down on all fours, he was alive but not conscious, that she was recalling how he really was when she killed him.

GRACE: John Lucich, criminal investigator, president, E Forensics. What do you make of the interrogation tapes?

JOHN LUCICH, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR, PRESIDENT, E FORENSICS: You know, I just think she`s covering her lies. She just keeps changing her stories. These are obviously not defensive wounds. Defensive wounds are not stabbed 30 times. You`re not shot and then your throat slit from ear to ear. Those are not defensive wounds.

Another thing that bothers me about this case is that she asks for a car that blends in and she asks for a white car. So if you just go to Google and search for what color car blends in, CNN had a story back in 2012 that said white blends in the most and green is for rebels.

Now this is the computer forensics part of it. People need to take a look at her computer and take a look at her cell phone because I think a lot of this stuff will be found after she did a lot of research to cover her tracks including what color car to rent.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Captain Ronald Luce Jr., 27, Jillian, California, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Special Forces tab. Parents Ronald and Catherine. Seven brothers, two sisters. Widow Kendall. Daughter Carrie.

Ronald Luce Jr., American hero.


ARIAS: If Travis were here today, he would tell you that it wasn`t me.



GRACE: Matt Zarrell, at any point -- not that the state needs to prove it under the law. Did police ever discuss motive?

ZARRELL: Actually, they did, Nancy. Arias challenged the cop at one point saying what`s my motive? And Detective Flores immediately rattled it off. He says jealousy, fear, anger, afraid of being alone, there are so many motives with you. Too many.

GRACE: You know, unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom, death penalty prosecutor. Also joining us from Atlanta, defense attorney Peter Odom.

Eleanor, have you ever noticed during interrogations or when you have talked to a defendant in those rare chances you get to but when you get them on the stand, for instance, and you ask them a question they answer with a question like, well, what`s my motive? Or why would I do that? I mean, that`s a classic textbook evasive answer.

ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: I know. And I like to tell the jury, you know, they`re lying when they give you that kind of answer because they can`t answer the question straight out. And you see that time and time again, Nancy. They try to go all the way around the answer. So you have to stop and say, well, my question to you is, you know, and repeat the question. So that`s just a classic thing you see all the time. You can really attack it in court.

GRACE: And, Peter Odom, come on, she literally has her head between her our knees like when you`re going to pass out when she`s giving this story about what happened.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And you know, people can talk about body language all they want. I happen to think that that has no more sense than chicken bones and tea leaves and, you know, soothsaying. Her body language is what she wants you to see. And she`s clearly a good actress. She`s clearly in good shape. So you know, body language means nothing, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, Peter. According to you, nothing is anything in this entire case --

P. ODOM: Well, that`s not what I said.

GRACE: I guess the crime scene photos and the forensic evidence is nothing. But you know what? You`re the one comparing it to chicken bones and tea leaves.

Everyone, a special good night tonight from friends Christina Lalique and George. Aren`t they handsome and beautiful?

Yes, you wave. There you go.

And happy birthday to our superstar Ellie. With me all the way back to Court TV. Launched our HLN show. Now starting a brand new chapter of her life.

Dear Ellie, walk slow and hurry back, friend.

"DR. DREW" up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.