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Nancy Grace
Jodi`s Psychologist on the Stand for Redirect
Aired March 19, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," on the trueTV network, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for joining us.
We are live right here at the courthouse in downtown Phoenix, Arizona. And we want to get you right back into that courtroom. You are not going to miss a minute of the Jodi Arias trial. The defense expert, Jodi Arias`s shrink -- he is back on the hot seat as we learn that Jodi has yet another version of what happened.
Right before she killed Travis Alexander, she told her shrink that Travis pulled on her sweater. Her sweater? What sweater? Cross- examination -- it gets so heated with the prosecution, you`re not going to believe it! Arias`s private sessions with her own shrink reveal in court that she told him Travis had pictures of naked women on his computer. And then she complains to him that Travis Alexander`s death ruins her sex life.
Let`s go straight into the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you been doing that for 30 years?
RICHARD SAMUELS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Thirty-five years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thirty-five. Sorry. And why don`t you interrupt -- why don`t you interrupt somebody when they`re in the middle of something, to correct them or clarify?
SAMUELS: Well -- yes, well, because you want to get at the flow of information. That`s the most important thing. If you interrupt someone, you`re interrupting their chain of thought. They may have lost -- like, I may lose something if the topic gets changed.
But they -- you don`t want to interrupt when someone is sharing information for you. It`s more like a free flow of information that way. You`ll eventually get to it. If you plan to go back a few times, you`ll eventually get to that information.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And in your practice, if you interrupt somebody while they`re talking, does it disturb their train of thought?
SAMUELS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it a way, then, to get their train of thought, then, maybe onto something different, if it happens?
SAMUELS: If it happens, that could very likely happen. It often does.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when you`re listening as a doctor, that`s not necessarily something you want to do, right?
SAMUELS: No, you don`t want to interrupt the train of thought, especially when you`re gathering information, and especially in the early stages of the interview, when you`re learning about the person because what they tell you, the order in which they tell you, the way they use certain language, these are all clues as to the individual`s personality.
So it`s imperative that you listen carefully to what they`re saying, how they`re saying it, the tone of their voice. You don`t want to interrupt them when they`re doing that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, that brings up a good question. So when you talk about everything you know being contained in your notes, everything with regard to your interviews with Ms. Arias, it`s not just what we see written down in your notes, is that right?
SAMUELS: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So other than what we see written down, what else are you doing? And as you`re writing things down and listening to her, what else are you looking for?
SAMUELS: You`re remembering. You`re remembering and integrating one session over another session over another session. And then when you evaluate police reports or you see interviews with the family, you remember what was told to you, and you begin to integrate that process. And one of the miracles of the brain is that we have that capacity to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And when you say integrating things -- so you were asked about having your notes that you reviewed.
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And in preparation for your report, did you -- you obviously -- did you review your notes?
SAMUELS: I reviewed the notes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did you -- what else did you review?
SAMUELS: I reviewed police reports. I reviewed interviews with family and friends, people that knew her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me stop you there, actually. So did you do any actual interviews of these families and friends?
SAMUELS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that something normal, that you would be expected to do?
SAMUELS: Oh, sometimes it can be done. But if you have other people going out and getting that information, usually, that`s enough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
SAMUELS: There are times when I`ve called family members on specific aspects of the case, but I didn`t feel the need to in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. So you reviewed their -- other people`s interviews, you said?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what else? I`m sorry, I interrupted you.
SAMUELS: OK, photographs, police descriptions, various interviews. I reviewed Ms. Arias`s voluminous diary, e-mails, text messages, and whatever else was given to me by the state and by you folks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And you mentioned text messages and e- mails. Just give me a second -- OK. So you -- we were talking a little bit ago -- and I apologize for having to go back -- but about the aggressive -- or not aggressive, assertiveness of Ms. Arias.
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or lack thereof.
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. In reviewing text messages, did you review text messages between Ms. Arias and Mr. Alexander?
SAMUELS: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And in reviewing those text messages, did you see any common thread of assertiveness from Ms. Arias?
SAMUELS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see the opposite?
SAMUELS: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see Ms. Arias -- did you -- in those text messages, did you see arguments that were contained in the text messages?
SAMUELS: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did Ms. Arias typically back down from arguments?
SAMUELS: Typically, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did she talk to you about -- did she talk to you about ever having anger towards Mr. Alexander?
SAMUELS: She was very mild in her expressions of anger, if it was ever expressed. Most of the time, she wrote adoring notes about him. I would say -- and I didn`t do a survey here, but just by looking, 90, 95 percent of what was written about him was positive and effusive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. Do you remember being asked about questions about the rope and tying hands and ankles?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you remember being asked questions about whether there was photos taken while Mr. Alexander was on top of -- or while Ms. Arias was on top of Mr. Alexander?
SAMUELS: I did hear -- I do remember that, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You remember those questions? OK. And do you remember the questions about -- specifically about whether -- well, the state played a clip for you. Do you remember hearing yourself, part of the interview?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Let me grab (ph) that. All right, in the clip that the state was playing for you was talking about whether or not she was stuck in the closet and when the gun was fired...
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or I`m sorry, not when the gun was fired, but grabbing at (INAUDIBLE)
SAMUELS: Grabbing the gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And you looked through your notes, haven`t you?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And is there anything in your notes with regard to a sweater?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there?
SAMUELS: No, not to a sweater. No. I thought you meant to the gun incident...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
SAMUELS: ... the closet. But no, nothing specific to a sweater.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And did she talk to you several times about what happened when she grabbed the gun and ran out of the closet?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And during those times, that was the times that you were taking notes.
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when she talked to you about that -- what the clip that we heard, was an interview between you and Mr. Martinez, is that right?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And during that interview, he was asking you questions about what you remembered Ms. Arias saying.
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. Besides talking about the rope and the videos and the -- going into the closet, she talked to you about the whole scenario, right?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did she talk to you about that his violence began in 2008?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Beyond the scope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Approach, please.
CASAREZ: All right, objection by the prosecution, attorneys going to sidebar. We are live, everybody, right here in Phoenix, Arizona, down at the courthouse. You are watching -- this is direct -- redirect examination by the defense of their forensic psychologist, Dr. Richard Samuels.
Beth Karas has just come out of the courthouse. Beth, I want to talk to you because we just heard in this redirect you don`t interrupt when you are assessing someone, you just let them talk. What have we learned about the lies that Jodi Arias told her own forensic psychologist?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": Well, he has conceded that there are a number of things she told him which we now know were not true, or at least she said something different on the stand. They`re inconsistencies. Who knows really what the truth is, but they`re inconsistencies.
And there were times when perhaps he could have corroborated what she was saying, and he didn`t. Now, he said about some of these inconsistencies, they really weren`t germane to his ultimate conclusion. But he also had to concede that if she told him one lie after another, he would have to kind of step back and look at the big picture and say, Wow, what`s going on here?
But some of the lies were -- you know, or at least inconsistencies were, she told him, Travis is the only person I ever had anal intercourse with, when, in fact, she told the jury that she had done it a couple of times with a couple of previous boyfriends. That`s one inconsistency.
She also, you know, was describing, you know, different aspects of their relationship...
CASAREZ: You know, Beth, we`re looking at them -- we`re looking at them here. Matt Zarrell, very quickly, what about the sweater? We suddenly hear about a sweater that she told her shrink about?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, now, this is -- the key point here -- and you heard it on the tape -- this is not in his notes. The only place this ever came up was when the prosecutor interviewed him...
CASAREZ: You know, Matt -- Matt, we`ve got -- we`ve got to hold this because we have got court back in session. Let`s go in live, everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, Dr. Samuels, do you remember telling -- Ms. Arias telling you that according (ph) -- what she considered violence really started, got worse in 2008?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And with regard to the gun, do you remember her telling you...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, leading.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you remember her telling you that she thought that if she had the gun, it would stop him?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection (INAUDIBLE) foundation. Which time?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, there was only one time she had a gun. Are we talking...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) interview. Lack of foundation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So the first time that she talks to you about what actually happened -- let`s see -- the first time that she actually talks to you about...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASAREZ: And welcome back. We are live right here in downtown Phoenix, Arizona, at the courthouse. I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace.
You are not missing a minute of the Jodi Arias trial. We have pressed the pause button. You have to hear about a brand-new theory in testimony in regard to Jodi and what happened as she was killing Travis Alexander. She told her therapist that she was wearing a sweater. Let`s listen to a little bit of that testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMUELS: (INAUDIBLE) grabbed her sweater or something like that, she said. And she remembered the gun. She took the gun and pointed it at him. And then she said...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was the gun?
SAMUELS: I think it was on a shelf in the closet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: All right. Matt Zarrell, put this into context for us. We never heard about a sweater. What did she tell her shrink happened?
ZARRELL: Yes, we haven`t even heard about articles of clothing. This is the first we`ve heard about Arias trying to get away and Travis grabbing an article of clothing.
The other significant thing here is when she remembered the gun, on her testimony, in her testimony, Arias said on the stand that she remembered the gun when she got into the closet. And instead of going out the door, she reached up and grabbed the gun, and then went out the door and turned around and pointed it at Travis.
However, she told Samuels that she remembered the gun as she got away, going down the hallway when Travis grabbed her clothing. Now, this sweater thing has never come up before. It is not in Samuels`s notes. The only place he mentioned it was to the prosecutor just last week.
CASAREZ: And Matt Zarrell, this is June 4th, 2008. What was the temperature in Phoenix, Arizona, on June 4th, 2008?
ZARRELL: Oh, you can see it there. It was high 96, low 71. It was very sunny, no reason to wear a sweater.
CASAREZ: Ninety-six degrees. All right, everybody, let`s go back into that courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What actually happened -- let`s see -- the first time that she actually talks to you about what actually happened was when? Do you remember?
SAMUELS: I think it was sometime in April.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of what year?
SAMUELS: Of 2010.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would that be April 11th?
SAMUELS: Yes, I believe...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Leading.
SAMUELS: Let me look. Yes, April 11th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And on April -- and honestly, I`m not sure if this is the first time she talked to you or not, but I know on April 11th, she`s -- in your notes on April 11th of 2010, is she talking to you about what happened with regard to June 4th of 2008?
SAMUELS: Yes, she`s talking about what happened on the actual day of the incident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) those words.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually (INAUDIBLE) Oh, those are marked?
SAMUELS: These are marked, your honor. I`m just looking through my notes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) you need to tell us the exhibit number you`re referring to.
SAMUELS: OK. Well, I was actually looking at exhibits 543, 537 and 542 because they -- what you`re looking for may be on here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
SAMUELS: They`re out of context, so I have to review them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Are the notes marked for April 11th of 2010?
SAMUELS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Do you want to pull those?
SAMUELS: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Exhibit 548 is the April notes.
SAMUELS: April 11th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On (INAUDIBLE) does she talk to you about the gun?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Improper refresh of recollection. He doesn`t (ph) say he doesn`t remember, but he`s basically going to read his notes. Improper impeachment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you remember what you specifically wrote in your notes? Could you tell us verbatim?
SAMUELS: Not from memory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) relevant as to what he wrote. The relevant inquiry is whether or not he remembers what she said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) have speaking objections? May we approach?
CASAREZ: So what you`re watching right here is redirect examination. And in April of 2010, Jodi Arias finally came clean with the truth that she killed Travis. And he`s showing the consistency, then, in her story. No more lies, he says, at that point.
OK, we`re going to take a short break. We`ve pressed the pause button. You`re not going to miss anything. We`ll be right back live here in Phoenix, Arizona.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASAREZ: And welcome back to Phoenix, Arizona. I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. We are live. We want to take you right back into that courtroom. This is the psychiatrist, psychologist, that actually examined Jodi Arias. Let`s go in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, Dr. Samuels, on April 11th of 2010, do you remember that -- did you interview Ms. Arias that day?
SAMUELS: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And on that particular day -- let`s not refer to your notes yet. On that particular day, do you remember specifically if she talked to you about the gun?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you remember if she talked to you about what happened in the closet and the bathroom?
SAMUELS: Yes. She was fleeing his approach. She ran into the closet, remembered there was a gun on a shelf, pointed it towards him. And I recall her writing -- telling me, rather, and I wrote that she was hoping that the sight of the gun would hold him at bay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Was she hoping to create distance?
SAMUELS: She was -- in fact, said that she was trying to create distance between herself and Mr. Alexander.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And specifically, do you recall what she said with regard to being in the closet or running out of the closet when the gun goes off?
SAMUELS: I think she was out of the closet at that point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you need to refer to your notes at all?
SAMUELS: I would like to, if I can.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. Tell me when you`re finished.
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And which exhibit are you referring to?
SAMUELS: I beg your pardon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which exhibit are you referring to?
SAMUELS: I am referring to exhibit 548, second page, towards the middle of the page.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
SAMUELS: And it said...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would object to him reading...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s OK. You don`t have to read it.
SAMUELS: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So just if you want to refresh your recollection.
SAMUELS: No, I remember. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
SAMUELS: She ran into the closet and was running through the closet, and that`s when the gun was held up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And did you have a note in there about her -- that she -- did she run out the opposite door?
SAMUELS: She ran out the opposite door. It was apparently an adjoining closet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Adjoining to the bathroom?
SAMUELS: Adjoining -- I think it was between the bathroom and the hallway or the bedroom, I`m not sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did she tell you -- and you can refer to your notes if you need to. Did she tell you about running out of the closet door?
SAMUELS: She did say that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And after she runs out of the closet door, did she talk about holding the gun up?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if she runs out of the closet door, where would she have been?
SAMUELS: She would have...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection (INAUDIBLE) beyond the scope of his understanding. Lack of foundation as to this question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Approach.
CASAREZ: All right. They`re going to a sidebar. We`re going to press pause. We`re going to take a short break. We`ll be right back with more court action here in Phoenix, Arizona.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASAREZ: And welcome back to Arizona. I`m Jean Casarez. We are live here in Arizona. I am in for Nancy Grace. We are bringing you every minute of this testimony. The pause button is on right now. I want to go to the lawyers joining us tonight. First of all, Gloria Allred out of New York, attorney and victims` right advocate. Jason Lamm, who joins me right here at the courthouse, defense attorney in the Phoenix jurisdiction, and Bradford Cohen, out of Miami, defense attorney.
All right, Gloria Allred, you know, I always say let`s look at the facts. And the facts are with this witness, who is the forensic psychologist for the defense, No. 1, the diagnostic test that he used to determine that she had posttraumatic stress disorder, she lied through the whole thing. He admitted on the stand he should have retested her on that. He didn`t. The scores that she got from that test did not suffice to being diagnosed with PTSD. Also, we also learned that the report -- his final report, he added up his factors incorrectly. He didn`t include enough factors for her to have posttraumatic stress disorder. All of that could have been avoided. This could have been a very credible witness for the defense, Gloria.
GLORIA ALLRED, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It could have, but he isn`t a credible witness for the defense, or at least I think that some people will not find him anyone that they can rely on as an expert, Jean. And that`s a big problem for the defense.
And the fact that, for example, he`s even admitted he hasn`t written down everything that she told him. He`s relying to some extent on his own recollection. That`s dangerous territory, because when he`s saying things that she supposedly told him that he didn`t write down, maybe he didn`t remember correctly. Maybe he did. The jury is not going to know. And the question`s going to be, is he tailoring his testimony to help her rather than being someone that is trustworthy from the point of view of the jury?
CASAREZ: And Jason Lamm, when he had answers like that, he admitted he was speculating, speculating. An expert witness speculates, Jason Lamm?
JASON LAMM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, they do, Jean, believe it or not, based on their training, knowledge and experience, that`s exactly what they do. But I`ve got to tell you, any points that Martinez may have scored, I think it was lost.
CASAREZ: Then why did the prosecutor say that he was making it up and he admitted it? Jason Lamm, he said I`m speculating. The prosecutor said you`re making it up. He admitted it. He admitted that on the stand when the prosecutor attacked him.
LAMM: No, no. Jean -- Jean, no. That is theatrics by Juan Martinez. Speculation is permissible, you know, by an expert within their field. But Juan Martinez has to do this whole grandiose display that`s getting just obnoxious. You can do it with Jodi Arias. I wouldn`t do it with his style, but you know, she`s the defendant. You treat an expert with some degree of respect. But instead he`s yelling and screaming, cross- examination by temper tantrums as I call it, and what happens is it becomes white noise. It loses the effectiveness.
Juan Martinez only knows one speed. And really at a certain point it all becomes more of the same. I think, you know, you can win the battle but lose the war, and I think that`s a lot of what`s going on with this cross-examination of Dr. Samuels.
CASAREZ: All right, Jason Lamm, I think a lot of people disagree. We are ready to go back into that courtroom right here in Phoenix, Arizona. Let`s go in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. Samuels, did she tell that you she ran into the bathroom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so when I`m asking you the question of if she ran out the door, the closet door, where did she run into, did she ever tell you where she ran into?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She ran into the bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And when she runs into the bathroom, did she talk to you about pulling the trigger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did she talk to you about the gun going off?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she say what happened after the gun went off?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He let out a scream. She didn`t notice blood. But he kept coming towards her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did they fall on the ground?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They fell on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And in your -- OK. When they fell on the ground, did she talk to you -- did she describe to you what happened on the ground?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. They wrestled, and she finally was able to get up and flee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, does she tell you that he pulled at her shirt?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. He did pull at her clothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. On April 21st, did she talk to you again about what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And is this something that you`re doing on purpose? Are you asking her what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m asking her a second time, and there was maybe even a third time, what happened. And that way there`s an attempt to, through successive approximations, get a better understanding of what actually happened. When people tell stories, they frequently will tell different parts of the story, not because of the fact that they`re lying necessarily, but because of the moment that they`re revealing it, they only remember that. And what we find is that if someone has a premade story, has made up a story, usually that story`s very consistent time after time after time. But here, each story was a little different. And I was able to synthesize what I thought was the most likely occurrence. Not accurate 100 percent, but reasonable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So what you were saying is with made-up stories, do you hear -- when you hear made-up stories from people, do you hear the same verbiage over and over?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Almost -- yes, you do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you hear the way things happened exactly the same every time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If not exactly, very close to the same. Sometimes the same words are used.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And when somebody`s recalling something that actually happened, are there sometimes small details or details that are left out one time but then told another time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does that mean that it didn`t happen, necessarily?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. It means that something like what was told, the average of all of those times likely happened. That`s what it means.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And is that what you find in your practice in speaking with thousands of people over your years of practice?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. So on April 21st, did you meet with her again?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And during the time that you met with her, at some point did you talk to her again about what happened on June 4th?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And if you need to refer to your notes, let us know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I would just like to have them available. That was April 21st.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: April 21st.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what exhibit number is it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s exhibit number 537.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. All right. Does she tell you specifically whether or not she was in the closet when the gun goes off?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to look at my notes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please do.
Judge, may I direct him to the page to make it quicker?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. One, two, three, four, five. Fifth page.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
Oh, yes. Well, she doesn`t talk specifically about the closet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Well, does she talk about running into the closet?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she talks about running into the closet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And does she talk about creating a distance?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. She was trying, again, she repeated that she was trying to create a distance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And does she tell you that she goes for the gun?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, leading.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And after she talks about -- does she talk about the gun?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry, can you repeat that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does she talk about getting the gun?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And after she talks about getting the gun, does she say where she goes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She ran out into the hallway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Into the hallway or into the bathroom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on. Let me see. I just want to be sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is before the gun goes off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I was on page 5.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what I`m looking at, perhaps I`m not looking at the right place. It says she rolled over --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, (inaudible) he says it does not refresh his recollection.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She runs down the hallway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, don`t answer. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, may we let the answer stand?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, Judge, may we approach?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may approach.
CASAREZ: The family album is back, showcasing your photos. Tonight, it is the great state of Texas, and friends Walters family, Carl and Bridget, they love taking family road trips across the country with their parents, Carl and Jennifer. Share your photos through the I-report family album, hlntv.com/nancygrace. Click on Nancy`s family album.
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CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez in for Nancy Grace. You are not missing a moment of the Jodi Arias trial. Let`s go right back into the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may continue.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.
Doctor, I`m going to ask you to look at a specific page.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From April 21st. And I just want to compare, because I know these pages are not numbered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m looking at the fifth page under the first line that`s drawn across. Is there a line at the top?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After the first paragraph?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And can you read through that paragraph for us?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The very top one or the bottom -- the one below the line?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, can you read through the rest of that page?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure. She runs out --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, no, not out loud.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I`m sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry. This way so that -- so that when I ask you questions about what happened --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. (inaudible). He knows.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled. Let us know when you`ve finished reviewing it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Does -- is there reference in -- do you remember, after reviewing your report, do you remember better what she told you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I do remember that she ran into the closet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then she said she actually ran out of the closet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And were you trying to describe where the closet was located?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how did you do that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, she described it to me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had told me once before about the closet. So I combined that with what I had learned previously.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And that it was adjoining to the bathroom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. What did she say about shooting Mr. Alexander?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, she said the gun went off. It wasn`t her intent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. What was her intent?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To keep distance between him and her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she talk about her feelings? How she felt at the time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was terrified. She was frightened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did she talk about what happened as the gun goes off? What was Mr. Alexander doing as the gun goes off?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I`m not sure now it is exactly this -- but I know--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s OK. If you need to refresh your recollection, you can look at your report again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right where -- the same page.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Same page, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then tell me when you`re finished reviewing it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So did she talk to you about what Mr. Alexander was doing when the gun was going off?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was lunging towards her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And did he -- did she talk about after he falls on top of her, what he did?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, leading.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what is he doing then?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he was on top of her, and she knew enough to indicate that he was a wrestler. And she realized and recollected at that particular moment that that was a very disadvantageous position for her. So she tried to get away, and ultimately was able to get up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And after she gets up, does she say where she runs?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I see the hallway, but I know that -- yes, I see the hallway in this particular --
CASAREZ: This is very consistent with her testimony. All right, we`re going to take a short break. We`ll be right back. The pause button is on. We`re live in Arizona. We`ll be right back with more testimony.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. We are right outside the courthouse in downtown Phoenix, Arizona. You are listening to every single bit of the Jodi Arias trial. Let`s go right back inside that courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see the hallway, but I know that, yes, I see the hallway in this particular article.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hold on. What is the objection?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The objection is that he`s not being allowed to finish the question -- the answer. In other words, he says he sees the hallway. Where -- lack of foundation. Where does he see it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t interrupt him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s your response?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I recall that she was saying that she was running down the hallway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And after that, does she talk to you about whether she has any strong memories after that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she does not have strong memories after that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. Does she talk to you again on June 9, 2010?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I have notes from June 9th, but I don`t think there is anything -- should I pull them out of here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go ahead and pull them out.
CASAREZ: If there`s one thing that has been consistent with the testimony of Dr. Richard Samuels, and this is, everybody, the forensic psychologist who assessed Jodi Arias, he has been shuffling papers throughout the entire testimony. I don`t care if it`s direct, cross or redirect, he`s shuffling his papers.
Now, this is a death penalty case. This is the most serious case that you can have in these United States, and this is the expert who assessed her. Now in his defense, he visited her 12 times over a three-year period, met with her 25 to 30 hours, and he`s got the papers to prove it. Let`s go back in live.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you remember that you spoke to Ms. Arias again about what happened on June 4th, 2008?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it was a rather lengthy session.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And did you speak to her about grabbing the gun? Do you remember that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you remember if she talks to you about running out a door?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And does she talk about running out of the closet door?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she talk to you again about whether or not she planned to shoot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Previous ruling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Approach, please.
CASAREZ: This is critical testimony right here. This is the psychologist that she finally opened up to with what she says is the truth. We`re going to press the pause button. We`re going to go to break, come back, you`re going to hear more of what Jodi Arias told her psychologist.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASAREZ: We remember American hero, Army Private First Class, Paul Cuzzupe II. 23 years old, from Plant City, Florida. He was awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart and Combat Action Badge. His loving family includes his parents, Annette and Paul, his stepfather Michael, his sister Alexis, and brothers Anthony, David and Troy. Paul Cuzzupe II, an American hero. Let`s go right back into the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may continue.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible) what she said with regard to the gun?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I remember the gun being discussed several times. And I`m not sure that it`s specific to these particular notes, but I remember --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m talking specific to this particular meeting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to refresh my memory.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then let`s do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: May I help him with the page?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. On the 12th page. The third from the end.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And my question while you`re reviewing that is, did she talk to you about her intentions with the gun? Let me know when you finish.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At one point she (inaudible) she had the gun, she didn`t plan to shoot, it was, again, somehow the -- I don`t remember if she said specifically that he screamed at that particular time. But that (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And specifically, did she, did she talk to you about running out the door again?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She ran out the door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did she specifically tell you where she ran to in these notes? And if you need to refer to them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to review, I have to check, because I want to be sure. I don`t want to make a mistake. She ran into the bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
CASAREZ: Dr. Drew is coming up next. Goodbye, everybody.
END
