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Nancy Grace
Arias Psychologist Testimony Recap
Aired March 22, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Why don`t you go ahead and put those on. Go ahead. Stop right there and turn around. Put your hands behind your back.
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NANCY GRACE, HOST: This week was an incredible week in the trial of Jodi Arias, on trial for the murder one charge in the stabbing and shooting death of her then lover, Travis Alexander.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t have any memory problems, do you?
RICHARD SAMUELS, PSYCHOLOGIST: No.
Hold on a second. I guess the actual test is not here. And I had it (INAUDIBLE) together. Ah! Wait. (INAUDIBLE) And I`ll have to look at my -- my notes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take it out of your folder so that I can mark the PGS (ph) test along with the raw data.
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GRACE: We saw on the stand a psychologist brought on by the defense to explain to the jury why Arias allegedly can`t remember very much about the day she stabbed Alexander to death and capped it off with a gunshot wound to the head.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At some point, you do remember that you had the knife in your hand, correct?
JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I don`t remember that part.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember at some point indicating to this jury that you dropped the knife? Do you remember saying that?
ARIAS: I do remember that, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So if you dropped the knife, where did you drop it from, if not your hand?
ARIAS: Presumably, my hand. I just don`t remember gripping it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did I ask you whether or not you had gripped it?
ARIAS: That is what I took it as.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, did I ask you whether or not you were gripping the knife, ma`am?
ARIAS: You didn`t use those words specifically.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. I asked you whether or not the knife was in your hand. Do you remember that?
ARIAS: I don`t remember you wording it that way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you drop the knife?
ARIAS: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you tell that to the jury?
ARIAS: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you tell them that you screamed, right?
ARIAS: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So then the knife was in your hand, right?
ARIAS: Yes, it was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this issue about gripping has nothing to do with it, does it.
ARIAS: I would think it would.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think how strongly you were gripping it is important to this case?
ARIAS: I wasn`t talking about the strength of the grip, just that I...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I am -- I`m asking you that just now. That was the question.
ARIAS: Will you repeat that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think that how strongly you were gripping it is important to this case?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Argumentative and relevance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
ARIAS: I wouldn`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you`re the one that brought this up about not gripping it. You seem to think that`s important. Why do you think that`s important?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Argumentative.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did have the knife in your hand, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was after the shooting, according to you, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you previously had seen that knife in the bedroom, right?
ARIAS: I don`t recall. I mean, I think it was at one point, but I know it was definitely in the bathroom, but it may have gone to the bedroom. I`m not sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you did drop the knife, right?
ARIAS: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And after dropping the knife, you took it with you, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
ARIAS: Took it where?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know. I`m asking you. Where did you take it?
ARIAS: I have no idea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t remember. You said you dropped the knife, right?
ARIAS: Yes. I remember that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the jury asked the question about items, you indicated that you took certain items. Do you remember saying that?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you said the gun, right?
ARIAS: I remember the gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right? And a number of other items that you took, right?
ARIAS: Just -- the items I remember are...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
ARIAS: The items I remember are my luggage, of course, and I remember the rope and I remember the gun. I don`t remember having the knife at any point after I was a little more lucid.
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GRACE: For an entire day or more, Dr. Dick Samuels talked about something many people had never heard of called transient global amnesia.
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SAMUELS: Amnesia is not necessarily a fake or made-up kind of experience. It is not as if amnesia is -- can only be made up as a -- as to cover up something.
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GRACE: It`s kind of a partial amnesia surrounding shocking events brought on by too much sex and submersion in hot or cold water.
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SAMUELS: The amazing thing is that here`s the -- here are the things that can cause that -- sudden immersion in cold or hot water, physical exertion, emotional or psychological stress, pain, medical procedures, sexual intercourse.
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GRACE: Now, that was the absolute wrong thing to tell the jury, that Jodi Arias can`t remember murdering Travis because she had too much sex. And we`ve heard way too much sex in that courtroom. So that was probably not the best foot to put forward in front of this jury.
After about a day-and-a-half of talking about transient global amnesia, he then tells the jury that`s not her ailment.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that something that Jodi suffers from?
SAMUELS: No.
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GRACE: He went to a different type of amnesia.
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SAMUELS: I can say that if a person was in a true state of dissociative amnesia, at least during the most intense portion of that timeframe, it`s highly unlikely that someone would remember anything going on at that time.
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GRACE: During that time, he couldn`t find documents. He couldn`t recall to what he was referring. He had a lot of trouble describing events.
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SAMUELS: I`m sorry? Oh, OK. I don`t have that with me here. I apologize. I`m afraid I left it home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don`t you have it with you?
SAMUELS: I must have left it on my desk.
That is the hand scoring sheet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why was there a six there present at first, and then you changed it?
SAMUELS: I added them up incorrectly.
I don`t remember, so I have to go with what I wrote.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, are you confessing or saying that you were wrong in writing that down?
SAMUELS: I don`t know.
It would have been helpful to corroborate, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that wasn`t done in this case, correct?
SAMUELS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a mistake, then?
SAMUELS: Hold on a second.
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GRACE: It all became crystal clear on cross-examination when Samuels had to admit in front of the jury that he had been reprimanded and fined in his home state of New Jersey for bartering psychological services for dentist`s work, for dental work.
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SAMUELS: A complaint was filed to the New Jersey Board of Psychological Examiners, and they brought up this case, and part of the case involved the fact that I bartered. Now, unbeknownst to me, New Jersey passed a ruling that did not permit bartering as part of the psychological guidelines. There was a three-month overlap between the time that I started bartering with him, which was permitted nationally but not permitted by the state.
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GRACE: Yes, he was fined and reprimanded and then left that practice and started a largely inmate practice, a penal practice, in Arizona, clear on the other side of the country. That hurt!
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But if we just take a look at your report, which you said that you reviewed over and over again, right?
SAMUELS: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you reviewed it for accuracy, right?
SAMUELS: Correct.
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GRACE: In an excruciating cross-examination, a debilitating cross- examination headed up by prosecutor Martinez, Martinez carved him up like a Thanksgiving turkey on cross-examination.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it true that if it`s just a -- it`s a counting kind of thing. Three are required to be found on order for there to be PTSD, correct?
SAMUELS: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You only listed two, right?
SAMUELS: That was in a typographical...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that yes or no?
SAMUELS: Yes, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just the report and just what you have listed, that does not fit the diagnosis for PTSD, or post-traumatic stress disorder, right?
SAMUELS: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t have anything else.
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GRACE: He had Samuels`s head spinning. Martinez put the icing on the cake at the end when he brought out that Samuels charged $250 an hour for basically mumbo-jumbo on the stand.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And sir, with regard to this -- you`re getting paid -- how much are you getting paid per hour?
SAMUELS: I get paid per hour $250.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And for $250 an hour, you`re saying that this is not -- you weren`t paying enough attention to put whatever else was needed on your (INAUDIBLE)?
SAMUELS: I reviewed the report numerous times, and I must admit I missed it.
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ARIAS: (SINGING) (INAUDIBLE)
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GRACE: The bible for all evaluations of mental illnesses is the DSM. It`s a diagnostic tool that psychologists and psychiatrists use. And it`s basically a fill-in-the-blanks. If you meet X number of this and Y number of that, then you are diagnosed as A, B or C.
Samuels made a horrible mistake by not diagnosing her pursuant to all of the criteria in the DSM 4. He left some out. He stuck to his guns. It`s like standing on the mast of the Titanic as it goes down instead of jumping for a lifeboat. He stuck to his guns to the bitter end, even after he had to admit one mistake after the next after the next.
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SAMUELS: Well, they weren`t great errors, but it didn`t change the outcome of the report.
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GRACE: This as the jury questions are piling up. The jury puts questions in a box, and you can see it in the courtroom. And the stack got higher and higher and higher of questions that the jury intends to ask Dr. Samuels.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Do you often make mistakes in your reports when you do evaluations?"
SAMUELS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You seem to have several issues with omitting or forgetting to include information. Do you think that it is important to have an accurate and complete report for a trial like this?"
SAMUELS: Yes.
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GRACE: I think the most significant fact about Samuels`s testimony is that it was a complete failure. It would be wrong to point to one particular mistake that he made. It was an overall message based on lies of Jodi Arias.
It came out that Arias for about halfway through her meetings with him had given the ninja story, claiming that two assailants dressed in black had come in while she`s there, murdered Travis, memorized her driver`s license information, and let her go. That was the set of facts under which he was operating for about 50 percent of the time that he spent with Arias.
After she finally admitted that she killed Travis Alexander, he neglected to reapply the tests as they relate to the new facts. Yet he stood by those tests in front of the jury. It`s absolutely ludicrous. It doesn`t make any sense. It`s a non sequitur. It doesn`t follow.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Do you always develop such a fond relationship with the individuals you evaluate?"
SAMUELS: I wouldn`t characterize our relationship as being fond. I am an impartial evaluator.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Do you still think that it was appropriate to purchase a gift for Jodi while evaluating her, or do you feel you stepped over an ethical boundary?"
SAMUELS: There`s no ethical guideline regarding purchasing a self- help book for a client that you`ve just met for the first time. No further discussion of the book occurred. I just happened to be a compassionate person. I have done this with other clients that I`ve evaluated, if I feel it would help them. But since I can`t do therapy and I am a compassionate person and I have been doing therapy and evaluations for 35 years, I feel that that is not at all stepping over the boundary.
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GRACE: On a scale from zero to 10, 10 being the best, zero the worst, I`d give him somewhere between a 2 and a 3, maybe a 2.7. I mean, he`s not a convicted felon. He can speak. He can write. He can converse to the jury. Other than that, I would say it was a total blow to the defense. I`m sure that those in Arias`s camp are only praying that LaViolette, the second expert, will be better than Samuels.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I`m going to get you a bottle of water.
ARIAS: Thank you. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
ARIAS: Will they bring it to me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. It will probably be put in your property. (INAUDIBLE) water?
ARIAS: Can anybody turn the heat up in here? have a sweater I can borrow or something?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) I`ll see if I can turn it off. It`s hard to (INAUDIBLE) heat in this building.
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GRACE: What was very disturbing is that Jodi Arias`s own psychologist, Dick Samuels, states that her ailment, dissociative amnesia, is most commonly related to criminal activity. At that point, everybody on the jury looks over at Jodi Arias. That was bad.
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SAMUELS: It appears as if she suffers from dissociative amnesia. Dissociative amnesia is usually associated with criminal behavior. And according to the research, the more intense the trauma, the more likely and the more complete the amnesia. The amnesia has a finite period, rather the loss of memory covers a finite period of time, usually as long as the stressful situation is occurring. The more intense the crime or intense the distress, the more complete the amnesia tends to be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when you say more complete, what do you mean?
SAMUELS: The loss is greater. The loss is more permanent. Most of what`s occurred is not remembered, as opposed to perhaps some of it being remembered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were you taking the photographs when this happened? I want to see it on this exhibit.
ARIAS: Outside the shower.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pardon?
ARIAS: Outside the shower.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, why don`t you put a mark on there. Were you crying when you were shooting him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about when you cut his throat? Were you crying then?
ARIAS: I don`t know!
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GRACE: Also, this week, we hear more of Arias as told to Samuels when he spoke to her behind bars to evaluate her. She now, we learn, said that she recalls being grabbed, caught by her sweater at the beginning of the alleged attack by Travis onto her.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You and the defendant also discussed what happened in the closet, right?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in fact, one of the things that she told you was that he was coming after her and that he grabbed her sweater, or something like that, and she remembered the gun.
SAMUELS: May I see that again within the context of my report?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no, let`s play it, OK?
SAMUELS: (INAUDIBLE) but he grabbed her sweater or something like that, she said. And she remembered the gun. She (INAUDIBLE) the gun and pointed it at him. And then she said (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear yourself there?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you did say that he grabbed her sweater, right?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is according to her because you weren`t there, right?
SAMUELS: That`s my characterization. I`m not sure if she actually said sweater or just grabbed onto her. But it`s possible that I said sweater.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you did say that, right?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those are your words, correct?
SAMUELS: Those are my words.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one has done anything to your words, right?
SAMUELS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you did say that he grabbed her sweater, or something like that, right?
SAMUELS: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re indicating that Mr. Alexander grabbed -- according to the defendant, grabbed her by the clothing, right?
SAMUELS: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that they were in the closet when he grabbed her by the clothing, right?
SAMUELS: Approximately, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no, that`s not what you said. What you said is he grabbed her sweater or something like that, and she said that she remembered the gun. So she remembers the gun at the time that he`s grabbing her by the sweater or the clothing, right?
SAMUELS: That`s what she -- that`s what I recalled her telling me, yes. But I do have it in my notes here.
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GRACE: That is a significant point which we have never heard before. That was not in her version to the jury. That changes the mode of the attack, that he grabbed her and caught her by her sweater. That`s an entirely new fact, as told to Samuels during the analysis.
Also, she comes up with a different time during the fact scenario during -- at which she remembers the gun. So her story has evolved even more since she related it to Samuels.
That`s another significant fact this week. And I don`t know if that has hit home with the jury yet, but I`m sure Martinez caught it and he`s going to mention it in cross-examination.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t matter to you that there are these inconsistencies in this case as they apply to the defendant.
One of the things that she told you was that he was the only individual ever that she had ever had anal intercourse with, correct?
SAMUELS: Early on in that discussion, she did say that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if it -- you`re implying that later on in the discussion, she told you something different.
SAMUELS: She was involved in a homicide.
ARIAS: I don`t remember what I was thinking. After I shot him, I didn`t know that I shot him, but after the gun went off...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Were you mad at Travis while you were stabbing him?"
SAMUELS: (INAUDIBLE) horrendous (ph) pride.
ARIAS: I don`t remember being angry that day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s the one who killed Travis.
SAMUELS: She admitted...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s the one who did the killing.
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "But you do not remember stabbing Travis and dragging his body?"
ARIAS: I think, actually, that I have a very good memory.
SAMUELS: She recalled herself being chased.
ARIAS: I can remember tons of things.
SAMUELS: Remembering that he was threatening her life.
ARIAS: Well, I mean, again, I think I have a really excellent memory.
I don`t have memory of that.
SAMUELS: She began to remember becoming reconnected to her environment while on that road in Arizona, covered with blood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says that all of this has interfered with her sex life, right?
ARIAS: The sound waves are hitting my ears, but the brain is not computing.
It`s hard because I don`t think I have memory issues.
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GRACE: The defense tried its very best with a Hail Mary to save the testimony of Dr. Samuels. But no matter how much they tried, it seemed to backfire. And frankly, I think the damage was done. There`s really no way to save it after that cross-examination by Martinez. It`s like putting a Band-Aid on a broken neck.
I think it may have even served them well not to have a redirect examination because the more they tried to explain away the problems, the more apparent they became.
Evoking memories of tot mom, Casey Anthony, new police interrogation video has just emerged this week, week 12 of the Jodi Arias trial. In that, we see her singing songs about her memory.
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ARIAS: (SINGING) It might change my memory...
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GRACE: We also see her bizarrely performing a headstand -- a headstand, where you stand on your head -- when the police officer, Flores, had left the room for a moment. And even more interesting, in my take, is we see her handcuffed, but she wants to fluff her hair up for her mug shot. This as she`s being charged for the murder, the slashing death of her lover that she claims she wanted to marry.
As she`s sitting there handcuffed, she plops down on the ground, on the carpet in the police interrogation room, and starts wiggling along on her booty and then -- so she can get in position to throw her head down and sling her hair back, repeatedly trying to get her hair fluffed out for her mug shot.
So at a time when most normal people would be thinking about their deceased loved one, she is trying to fluff her hair for her mug shot. That`s disturbing on a lot of levels.
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ARIAS: ... thing I wanted to address and that is my mug shot. And I think I did a little tilt on my head and gave a little smile. And I -- there`s been a lot of attention given to that, especially on the Internet, people speculating why did I do that? How could she smile?
I just want to address that because I think that people don`t really understand. And there are a few reasons I did that. And one is -- one is -- one of my first thoughts when I was actually being booked -- and I was little, like, Wow, I see this stuff on TV all the time, this is so interesting. It`s almost just like it is on TV.
And I thought to myself, you know, What would Travis do if he were in this situation? This is why I`m here. And you know, barring the fact that he would likely not get himself into such circumstances, he would -- he would be smiling. He would be, like, Hey, you know? He would just flash this grin that he always does.
And so there was part of that, and then also part of the fact that I knew it would be all over the Internet, so why not? And then there was also the fact that I know that I`m innocent.
And even though this is a very serious thing to be charged with, there`s no reason for me to be sad because I know that -- that I`m not -- that I`d never hurt Travis. And there`s just -- there`s no reason to be upset over this, in my mind. Everything -- I have faith that in the end, everything will be made known, everything will come out. And in the meantime, smile, say cheese.
This is a really trivial question and it will reveal how shallow I am! But before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit? (INAUDIBLE) make-up (INAUDIBLE)
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there`s a question that you don`t want to answer, you don`t feel comfortable, you can say no, you know? Or you know, you can elaborate as much as you want. It`s completely up to you. It`s at your speed. I don`t want to pressure you.
ARIAS: (INAUDIBLE) recorded at all or...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know if there`s a recording or...
ARIAS: I don`t know if these are voice recorders. I noticed them. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
ARIAS: (INAUDIBLE) underneath (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think they`re on.
ARIAS: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I haven`t touched those (INAUDIBLE) but...
ARIAS: Oh, OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There was a point toward the end of the week during the questioning, when the lawyers would follow up, when the defense was following up on some of the jury questions, one of the jurors just had his head in his hands, like, Make it stop. That is a bad point to be at if you`re one of the lawyers, really, on either side, but especially for the defense because if the jury is that weary of the process, they are not going to be receptive of what they`re going to hear next.
It may very well, though, be just a very simple and innocuous presentation of being fed up with this particular witness. The witness started off badly, and he is ending badly.
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SAMUELS: It`s been established that perpetrators of horrible crimes can also develop post-traumatic stress disorder for having acted as the source of the crime. For example, soldiers -- our soldiers in Afghanistan report post-traumatic stress disorder because they were involved in the killing of the enemy. Police officers, people that I`ve treated, who shoot a victim either accidentally or on purpose, deliberately in the line of duty, also can develop post-traumatic stress disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You have compared Jodi`s PTSD multiple times to that of police officers and soldiers. Do you think that is a fair comparison, since police officers and soldiers kill as part of their job and duties?"
SAMUELS: But I certainly am not characterizing what happened on that fateful day as being equivalent to a soldier or a police officer doing their work. They`re very, very different, even though the diagnosis is the same.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: As this week in court went on, we saw the jury questions pile up higher and higher and higher. And I have no doubt in my mind that that was making not only Jodi Arias but the psychologist on the stand, Dr. Dick Samuels, break out in a sweat. And they were right to be nervous. The jury questions what (ph) unleashed (ph) were whoppers, questions like, Do you think Jodi Arias just tricked you?
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You said on redirect that if someone is making up a story, their story tends to be consistent. Is that correct?"
SAMUELS: Frequently, a made-up story will be consistent from recitation to recitation, and presented with a pretty much flat affect because it is rehearsed. And they`re going -- and basically, they`re pulling out that information not from their experience but from the memorization of this -- this -- this idea, this script that they`ve developed in their mind. It`s hard to deviate from a script if you`re memorizing the script.
So my feeling was that in the presentation, the television interview and the early interviews I had, there was a certain degree of consistency, but yet almost a mechanical consistency and presented with flat affect, which made me suspicious that the story wasn`t actually true. Now, of course, I also was aware of the forensic evidence, which would have made the story impossible.
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GRACE: Did you become a little too fond of Jodi Arias? Do you become this fond of all of your clients that you evaluate?
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SAMUELS: I wouldn`t characterize our relationship as being fond. I am an impartial evaluator.
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GRACE: Sending them greeting cards, buying gifts. Questions like, Isn`t it possible that Arias just has, quote, "selective amnesia," which, of course, is not a recognized amnesia whatsoever. That is a joke, really, from the jury.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Regarding the tremors or shakes you witnessed with Jodi, how can you tell it is caused by PTSD or memories, rather than fear for herself and her future, fear of being found guilty?"
SAMUELS: Well, Ms. Arias told me not only did she occasionally shake and indicated to me that it -- time (ph) connected it to an incident with Mr. Alexander, but she had other physiological changes, as well, including, as we began our discussions and she began telling the second story, she would report to me that her hands became sweaty while she was discussing certain elements. So this is actually a second physiological reaction to thoughts and memories of what had gone on during the attack, at least the beginning of the attack and the end of the attack.
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GRACE: It was interesting to me that the jury focused on Arias`s testimony that she would shake like a Chihuahua (ph) when she was afraid or stressed out by Travis Alexander because they asked a very intuitive question. And that was, Well, how do we know she just doesn`t shake when she is overcome with guilt or because she`s afraid she`s going to be convicted of murder one?" Which I thought was a dead-on question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Did you see Jodi shaking before she ever mentioned it to you?"
SAMUELS: I did not notice it initially. And the reason for that is because when I interviewed Ms. Arias, I was behind a partition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: All of their questions, actually, were very, very insightful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the things that happened was that you gave her a book, right?
SAMUELS: That is correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you said that you were a compassionate man. Do you remember saying that in response to a jury question?
SAMUELS: Yes, I have been accused of that by many.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not asking you if you`ve been accused of anything! I`m asking you whether or not, in response to a juror`s question, you said that you were a compassionate man.
SAMUELS: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And with regard to compassion, isn`t that just sympathy for another individual and whatever situation they may be in?
SAMUELS: Perhaps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no, you`re the one that used the word compassion.
SAMUELS: Well, I`m not sure that compassion and sympathy mean the same thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doesn`t it say that compassion could be sympathy for the distress of another?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so when you said that you had compassion, you told us that you had sympathy for the defendant, didn`t you.
SAMUELS: Well, that`s Webster`s definition. I used the word "compassionate."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. And we just talked about how Webster defines compassion, right?
SAMUELS: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection, your honor. This is beyond the scope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you saying that you have a different definition of compassion than Webster`s?
SAMUELS: I`ll go by Webster`s definition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, so Webster then talks about sympathy for the distress of another, right?
SAMUELS: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so you said that you gave a book to this defendant after your first meeting with her, right?
SAMUELS: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so that means that -- and how long did that first meeting last?
SAMUELS: Two, three -- three hours, four hours perhaps.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A lot of people have asked what happens next. Well, this is how this trial`s going to go down. The state is going to sit back while the defense brings on yet another expert.
After that, in most jurisdictions, the state has a right to a rebuttal case once the defense rests its case. If the rebuttal is allowed, the rebuttal by the state, it will be brief. I do not expect the defense to mount a surrebuttal.
It goes like this. The state presents its case. The defense presents its case. The state puts on a rebuttal -- a brief rebuttal case, limited to rebutting what the defense has presented -- and a possible surrebuttal by the defense.
Then we will have a charge conference, where the lawyers argue to the judge what law should be read to the jury by which they are guided as they determine the facts of the case. After that charge conference, there will be closing arguments, and the jury charge, when the judge reads the law verbatim to the jury. Then they will begin deliberations.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDY KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jodi Arias has amnesia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any memories of slashing Mr. Alexander`s throat?
ARIAS: No.
KAYE: At least, that`s what the defense team would like the jury to believe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Why did you put the camera in the washer?"
ARIAS: I don`t have memory of that. I don`t know why I would do that.
KAYE: And defense lawyers are hoping this psychologist, a defense witness, will convince jurors Arias isn`t faking this.
SAMUELS: It appears as if she suffers from dissociative amnesia.
KAYE: Dr. Richard Samuels says that dissociative amnesia is something that occurs after severe trauma, such as a killing. The acute stress that follows sends a surge of chemicals to the brain that block the brain from storing any memories.
SAMUELS: The more intense the crime or intense the stress, the more complete the amnesia tends to be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when you say more complete, what do you mean?
SAMUELS: The loss is greater. The loss is more permanent. Most of what`s occurred is not remembered, as opposed to perhaps some of it being remembered.
KAYE (on camera): Jodi Arias has testified here in court over and over she doesn`t remember anything after shooting Travis Alexander back in June 2008. This is key because she stabbed him nearly 30 times and sliced his throat so deep, his head was nearly cut off. His bloody body was also dragged back into the shower and rinsed off. Could it really be she doesn`t remember any of that?
(voice-over): Arias has said bits and pieces of memory have returned, but not the whole picture of the killing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do those memories -- like, do they ever come back?
SAMUELS: If they`re not there, they can`t come back. They`re simply not there. Flashes of events may be vaguely remembered. But there`s no way of knowing in advance whether that`s going to happen.
KAYE: Arias had left Alexander`s home and was driving through the desert to see another man in Utah when she says something suddenly clicked.
ARIAS: When I sort of came out of the fog I realized, Oh, crap, something bad had happened. And I was scared to call any authority at that point.
KAYE: That sudden memory is something Dr. Samuels calls "intrusive thoughts," memories that appear at the very beginning of a trauma and hours after it.
SAMUELS: The intrusive thoughts that were referred to me, that were mentioned to me, involve the beginning of this traumatic event. She reported remembering that he was threatening her life. And then at the end, she began to remember becoming reconnected to her environment while on that road, covered with blood.
KAYE: Yet, even as she became reconnected with reality on that desert road, there are some things Jodi Arias says she still can`t recall now, nearly five years later. Where in the desert did she toss the gun? And what about the knife? Both weapons she used to kill are still both missing.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Phoenix, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: During the trial, much like tot mom, Casey Anthony, we saw Jodi Arias holding up her middle finger for an extended period of time, as if she`s shooting the bird or giving somebody the finger in the courtroom. I really don`t see how that could not have been intentional, when you look at the shot. I mean, who sits casually with their forefinger erect and pointed at someone?
You know, all of her personality traits are manifesting in the courtroom, whether intended or unintentional. That`s just Jodi Arias. I`m not surprised at all. In fact, I`d be surprised if she didn`t shoot a bird.
END
