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Nancy Grace

Arias Domestic Violence Expert Continues Testimony

Aired March 26, 2013 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know the relationship that you guys had was of convenience sometimes. Obviously, you weren`t boyfriend/girlfriend anymore.

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: (INAUDIBLE) just (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you mean by change in victim`s personality?

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, BATTERED WOMEN`S SYNDROME EXPERT: Depending on where the victim is when they get in the relationship and how vulnerable they are when they get in the relationship, to intimidate, and you know, change their personality.

ARIAS: I had a nervous breakdown once.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You taking any medication or anything?

LAVIOLETTE: People who are abused feel worse about themselves. Their apprehension is also going up. So as your self-esteem goes down, you become another person.

ARIAS: No memory of stabbing him. I just couldn`t believe what had happened and that I couldn`t take anything back. I couldn`t rewind the clock. I`d like to say something to his family. I don`t think I have anything (INAUDIBLE) I wrote them a letter. I don`t know if it will make it to them. I don`t know if they`ll even read it. But that`s the only attempt that I`ve made.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You actually sent Ms. Sarvi (ph) irises, right?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you, as her (ph) killer, then, are sending these items to him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is everybody saying that you are capable of hurting (INAUDIBLE) Everybody says it.

ARIAS: I don`t know why...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So don`t tell me that you`re not capable.

ARIAS: I don`t even hurt spiders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. After slashing and shooting her lover, Travis Alexander, to death, leaving his dead body in a dripping-wet shower stall, Jodi Arias`s defense team in overdrive, trying to recover from the titanic disaster of Arias`s professional shrink, Dick Samuels, on the stand, Samuels now accused of romantic feelings for Arias, fudging test results, and implied incompetence.

Are we down to the final witness for the defense? And is this witness actually swaying this jury to acquit Jodi Arias, let her walk in the murder of Travis Alexander?

Testimony still ongoing. Let`s go straight into the courtroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you ever -- do you ever counsel couples together if they`re in a domestic violence relationship?

LAVIOLETTE: I will not -- I can`t think of domestic violence couples I`ve counseled together, for a few reasons. One is that, first of all, when I do an intake, even in couples counseling, I separate people so I can hear two different versions, whatever they`re going to tell me about what`s going on in their lives, because I never know if somebody`s referred to me for domestic violence or for couples counseling. I don`t know. And so I separate couples, so I get more of a picture of what`s going on.

And then when I bring people back together, we can talk about what might be a good strategy, what might be a good way to work, what might be a good referral, if they need a referral, that sort of thing.

But if it turns out that they`re coming in and he`s going to, you know, participate in my group, I`m definitely not going to -- first of all, it would be a conflict to counsel them together. But if there`s domestic violence, safety is an issue that we look at very seriously. So the safety of the survivor is really important.

If we bring them together in a couples counseling situation, we actually don`t know what happens when they go home, if it`s contentious in that situation. We don`t know what we could be, you know, sort of generating in that situation. So safety reasons.

The second thing is that when there`s a situation where one person feels like the bad guy, they usually feel like their partner is a better person than they are. And if they don`t know how to make that level, the only thing they know how to do is level the playing field.

So if you`re leveling the playing field, what happens is if you leave and you`re in couples counseling is you remember what the therapist has said about your partner and not what they`ve said about you.

So you know, doing couples counseling for me means that there has to be some kind of balance in the relationship, so you don`t have, you know, a good guy/bad guy situation going on. And the third...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you -- oh, I`m sorry. Go ahead with the third thing.

LAVIOLETTE: No, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, go ahead. I was going to -- if you -- if there`s a third thing, I was going to talk about something else.

LAVIOLETTE: OK. And the third reason I don`t...

GRACE: OK, why do they have this witness talking about couples counseling? It has nothing to do with this trial at all.

LAVIOLETTE: ... perpetrator to change. You know, I can`t continue to confront that person in front of the person that he or she has hurt because they`ll never feel good enough about themselves to take responsibility for what they`ve done, or to even look at it. So it`s like continually shaming somebody in front of somebody that they`ve hurt. So they`re better off doing separate things.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. And you said -- well, you talked about the leveling the playing field. When you`re interviewing these people, do you look for that balance of power that you`ve talked about?

LAVIOLETTE: I absolutely look for a balance of power. And you know, I ask questions -- I ask some questions that I almost ask all the time, and sometimes they go a different way because the people I`m working with are different. But for instance, I usually ask people why they`re there. What brings you here? What is the situation that brings you here? Sometimes, there`s a very different story even in that situation. But I want to get...

GRACE: Again, this is making the witness sound really smart. And I think she is very smart. But this is irrelevant to this case. We know why Jodi Arias is here. She`s charged with murder!

LAVIOLETTE: Oh, I love -- I love my partner. I said, I didn`t ask if you loved your partner. Do you like your partner? Is your partner your friend? Because I want to see sort of what the condition of the relationship is. Do you like this person? Do you respect them?

I usually ask them if what they do -- how they handle conflict. When they get upset with each other, how do you handle it? If they -- you know, I ask them if they`ve ever laid hands on each other because if you ask if there`s pushing...

GRACE: Again, everyone, we believe this to be the final defense witness. Many court watchers believe she is actually swaying this jury to acquit Jodi Arias. This is Alyce LaViolette. She`s an expert in the battered women`s syndrome.

LAVIOLETTE: ... want to see is what they think is normal, what they think is OK, what they feel they`re entitled to do when they have an argument with each other.

I generally ask them if they`ve ever threatened their partners. You know, Do you ever threaten to leave? Do you ever threaten to -- you know, in any kind of a way, have you ever threatened to do physical harm? I find out that kind of information.

I ask them about family of origin kinds of things. And this is really important because what I find is that I get so much more information from the survivor than I do from the perpetrator, even on these issues. And so when I ask -- for instance, I had a young man and a young woman in. I asked him about his family, and he told me that he came from, you know, a family that wasn`t very close. But he made it sound like it was a fairly normal family, but his mother had died when he was young and didn`t -- didn`t describe a lot with that family.

When I interviewed his wife, she said, Did he tell you what happened to him when he was 6? And I said, Well, I can`t tell you what he said, but you can tell me whatever you want to tell me. And she said, Well, when he was 6 years old, he was sitting on the couch with his mom -- with his dad and his brother, and they were watching a movie.

And his mother came in, and she just looked at the family, and then she left and went into the bedroom and two shots rang out in the bedroom. And nobody ever got off the couch to see what happened until the commercial. And when they went in, his mother had shot herself.

Now, that tells me a lot about this man`s life that I would not have known had I not brought both people in. So I get a much better picture all the way around.

I can also find out about targets of abuse. Sort of, you know, Do you, you know, ever get in fights outside of your family, kind of thing, information about that. Sometimes I find out if somebody has a criminal record. There are just lots of different ways to get information with this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And ultimately, does that help you, then, once you start figuring out -- if a man`s coming into your men`s group, does that ultimately help you figure out where you need to go with him?

LAVIOLETTE: It does. It helps me to figure out -- you know, you don`t -- it`s not one size fits all. It`s sort of like you have to tailor what you`re doing to the person that`s in the room with you. And so without breaching anybody`s confidentiality, you can do that.

For instance, I had a young man who was very jealous and used to interrogate his girlfriend and do lots of, you know, different things like that.

Well, I don`t say to him, Well, your girlfriend told me you`re jealous. But what I can talk to him is -- I can talk about -- for instance, in group that night, we might talk about non-physical ways of controlling somebody. And we can talk about the ways those things happen and make that more specific to that person, or you know, to -- but generalize it to the group.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We talked a little bit about the cycle of violence. Is that something which is something that Lenore Walker (ph) (INAUDIBLE) is that right?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, Lenore Walker developed that concept.

GRACE: She`s talking about hearing both sides, but this is totally inapplicable here. She can`t hear Travis`s side. All of this is irrelevant, and I`m very surprised there has not been an objection.

LAVIOLETTE: ... a lot of victims of domestic violence really resonate with it. It`s not used as much because there`s controversy about the honeymoon phase because over time, a lot of survivors don`t get a honeymoon. And so the honeymoon can simply be -- and I`m using "honeymoon" in quote -- it can simply be the absence of aggression, and it feels like a honeymoon because nothing really bad`s happening. So the terminology is controversial.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And has -- since Ms. Walker has written her book in 1979, has there been a lot of research since that time, adding onto the ideas and the knowledge that we now have about domestic violence?

LAVIOLETTE: There`s a lot of research, and there`s people that specialize in working with victims of domestic violence and have written on victims and responses of victims. And there`s a book -- two books right now that are very good with looking at non-physical violence. One`s called "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans (ph) and one`s called "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship," and that`s by Beverly Engel (ph).

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m talking about anger, just absolute anger where you just, you know, lose it sometimes.

ARIAS: No issues that I can remember.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it true that the defendant had such anger towards her mother, Sandy, that she treated her like crap?

RICHARD SAMUELS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn`t it true that the defendant hit Sandy for no reason, right?

SAMUELS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it true that at some point, one of the times that they were together, they were sitting down for dinner or something, and isn`t it true that the defendant got mad and kicked Sandy...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... for no reason?

SAMUELS: I read that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For no reason, right?

SAMUELS: Well, that`s what it says, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t tell me that you`re not capable.

ARIAS: I don`t even hurt spiders.

LAVIOLETTE: I think people who do things to animals are reluctant to talk about them.

ARIAS: Oh, I kicked a dog once!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. You`re not missing any live testimony. Let`s go back into the courtroom.

LAVIOLETTE: So there`s -- and there`s one that Evan Stark (ph) just did, I think about four years ago, called "Coercive Controlling Behaviors" that`s really about coercion in relationship without having to use physical violence but using purely psychological abuse and verbal abuse and...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What you`re describing, the later research that`s been done, it makes it sound as though Ms. Walker`s research was based on physical violence only. Is that what you mean?

LAVIOLETTE: Actually, she had -- she had other -- she had physical, verbal and sexual, I believe, in the book. It`s been so long since I read it. My memory`s a little, you know -- but she -- Lenore talked about sexual violence. She talked about physical violence, and she talked about psychological. She talked about psychological abuse, too.

In her book, she talked about really extreme forms. So a lot of people that we worked with didn`t connect with it because they thought, Well, that`s not who I am. That`s not who my partner is, because it was so extreme. They were really extreme cases.

So we had a lot of victims of domestic violence who didn`t think they were victims of domestic violence because they didn`t fit in these extreme categories -- extreme descriptions, I should say.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I want to ask you some questions about what you know about the history of battered women. So I`m -- and not, like, history as in school, but I mean history -- if you have a woman that you`re...

GRACE: But Arias is not a victim of abuse. Now the witness is talking about the history of battered women. Now, she`s a very impressive witness. That`s true. But remember, she is basing everything -- every decision she`s made on this case on what Arias has told her.

LAVIOLETTE: ... as a child and then grows up, maybe has been assaulted as a teenager or something, then goes into an abusive relationship. There`s sort of -- there`s a lot of vulnerability that comes from multiple trauma.

So the other thing that we see is -- and we looked at this when we looked at the research on battered women, that there was no consistency in the history of battered women.

In other words, there were women from very healthy families. There were women from moderately healthy families, women from good families, women from very abusive families. There was the full range of women represented. So there was no consistency in the history of battered women. Unlike with perpetrators, there`s more consistency.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So with perpetrators, there`s more consistency with the more violent or traumatic a childhood, the more likely they are to be -- to become a batterer? Is that -- am I saying that correctly?

LAVIOLETTE: The more violent their history and -- or, actually, children tend to be affected even at low levels of domestic violence. So there`s effects on children. And it depends on the resiliency of the child, you know, the personality of the child. There`s a lot of factors -- you know, if they have another family member they can count on. If there`s a community organization. There`s a lot of compounding factors.

But with perpetrators of domestic violence, they tend to come -- they don`t have to come from the worst abuse, but they are generally what are called exposed to domestic violence. So the new terminology...

GRACE: We are pausing right now. It is our mission to bring you the trial in its entirety. We are bringing you the testimony as it is happening. And we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Everyone, we are live, camped on the courthouse steps there, the Phoenix courthouse, bringing you the testimony from today. On the stand, who we believe to be the defense`s last witness. Her name is Alyce LaViolette, and she is a domestic abuse expert.

As we are waiting for testimony to resume, we want to show you now sound that we have just uncovered. We`ve been digging through all the police interrogation and have actually found portions that have never been seen. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is everybody saying that you are capable of hurting him? Everybody says it.

ARIAS: I don`t know why...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So don`t tell me that you`re not capable.

ARIAS: I don`t even hurt spiders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever had any anger issues before? Never in your past?

ARIAS: I`ve had arguments. Travis and I...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, everybody has arguments. I`m talking about anger, just absolute anger where you just -- you lose it sometimes.

ARIAS: No. I had a nervous breakdown once.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You taking any medication or anything?

ARIAS: Uh-uh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

ARIAS: Well, I had a nervous breakdown when a boyfriend and I were arguing once. And he began to argue with me in a way that was totally different from how we had ever argued before. And he was just, like -- every time I`d say something, he was, like, Uh! Uh! You know? It was kind of weird. Like, every time I tried to formulate a thought -- I was just sad and I was crying. Every time I tried to formulate a thought, he would interject and twist it, and it was, like, the weirdest psychological thing that had ever happened.

And the way I reacted was I went into my room. This is the guy I bought a house with. I went into my room and shut the door. We had separate bedrooms. And that was in his room. I went down the hall into my room and shut the door, and I just remember hyperventilating. And that`s all. And I was crying.

And then I went to get something out of my car. And when he saw that, he maybe thought I was going to leave. So he asked me for the key to his truck and pulled behind my car because he thought that because I was so upset, I shouldn`t drive anywhere. But I mean, that`s...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: Can I use the bathroom?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I`ll get someone to come take you.

ARIAS: You know, I`m not, like, violent. I`m not going to run. It`s Yreka. So I mean, do I have to go in handcuffs everywhere? That`s just procedure?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether you wrote a bad check or you`re facing murder charges, you`re going to go in handcuffs. That`s just the way it is.

ARIAS: Detective, I`m not a murderer!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: There you see, shortly after Travis`s murder, she is actually complaining that she has to wear the handcuffs when she goes to the bathroom. That is her complaint.

We`re about to take you right back into the courtroom. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don`t you have it with you?

SAMUELS: I must have left it on my desk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it important to have a complete file?

SAMUELS: It`s not critical.

I did not bring them.

I didn`t see it as relevant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not important, right?

SAMUELS: No, it`s not important. I saw that as irrelevant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t matter to me.

SAMUELS: It was not germane to the issue I was investigating.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In other words, you`re saying it doesn`t matter to you. It`s not important.

SAMUELS: It`s not of concern to me.

I did not see the need to pursue it any further.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t matter to you because you`ve deemed that it`s irrelevant.

SAMUELS: I did not see as being relevant.

I ignored it.

I didn`t see it as being relevant.

That wasn`t as important to me.

The fax date on there is irrelevant.

It`s not critical.

MARTINEZ: Isn`t it important to corroborate things?

SAMUELS: It would have been helpful to corroborate, yes.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And, would that have been important to you?

SAMUELS: Not to me.

WILLMOTT: Does it matter?

SAMUELS: Not to me. And even now, it`s not important.

WILLMOTT: Was it important to you?

SAMUELS: It wasn`t important. Details and dates aren`t quite as important. It doesn`t affect me that much. That wasn`t as important to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live outside the Phoenix Courthouse, bringing you the very latest as we wait to take you straight back into testimony. Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Defense Attorney, Atlanta, Renee Rockwell, Defense Attorney, New York, Michael Mazzariello.

Renee Rockwell, we`re hearing a lot from this woman, granted. She`s impressive. She`s articulate. She`s well spoken. But, all three of us know that her anecdotes about, "Oh, one time I was counseling this couple, and I didn`t know if they were going to be violent afterwards, so I did X, Y and Z." That`s absolutely inadmissible. What she did with some other couple is absolutely inadmissible in this case. Why is the prosecutor letting this happen?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But Nancy, you know that when it`s an expert, there`s a lot of stuff that you can`t get into with a regular witness that you can with an expert. And, I think it`s very germane --

GRACE: But not in this case.

ROCKWELL: But, in this case, what she`s trying to say is there`s a lot of reasons why people lie. A battered woman will lie. And, she`s explaining that. We have to get these --

GRACE: I might to set a gas release. OK. Renee, I understand that, but the rules of evidence are that. Other anecdotal stories are not relevant to this case. If she wants to cite a study of some sort, that`s great. But to tell stories, she could sit there all day long and tell stories. Michael, why? --

ROCKWELL: They`re letting her go.

MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They --

GRACE: Michael, why is this happening?

MAZZARIELLO: It`s happening because the prosecutor`s not objecting, and the defense attorney`s doing a great job. You have a great witness, Nancy. Let this witness talk to the jury. Let this witness expand her testimony.

GRACE: I`m asking you, Michael, to try to shine some insight into why the prosecution is allowing this testimony, which all three of us know is inadmissible with the right objection. He`s letting it in.

Caryn Stark, here`s my theory. Psychologist Caryn Stark joining me out of New York. My theory is that he was so bombastic and so aggressive with the defense`s last witness, psychologist Dick Samuels, that he doesn`t want to appear to be picking on a very articulate, fairly likeable lady witness. That`s what I think, Caryn.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: And, I think he`s going to wait, Nancy to make his point till later. He`s just going to let her do her credentials and tell her stories. And, then you know what he`s like when he gets in there. He really attacks. But, I do want to say that Jodi Arias has no Hedda Nussbaum-- And, so she`s talking about domestic stories like Joel Steinberg and Hedda Nussbaum where women are really abused.

GRACE: Well, you know, Caryn, if you want to bring up Hedda Nussbaum which is also irrelevant, I take umbrage to that because Hedda Nussbaum stood by and let her daughter, her tiny, as I recall, 9-year-old daughter be beaten to death by her adopted father, and the last words that that little girl uttered was, with her face swollen and bleeding, she said, "Mommy, can you make me look pretty? Do I look pretty?" and then she died. So, you know what, I don`t think battered women`s defense is standing by and letting your daughter being murdered --

STARK: She nevertheless --

GRACE: But that last aside.

STARK: Was a battered -- there`s no doubt that she was a battered woman.

GRACE: Can we focus on this case?

STARK: And, I see like this -- This is as significant as posttraumatic stress when it comes to Jodi Arias. Are you telling about --

GRACE: Are you talking about saying Arias is battered?

STARK: Sorry?

GRACE: You think Arias is a battered woman?

STARK: No, I don`t.

GRACE: Let me ask you a question, Caryn.

STARK: And, I think that --

GRACE: Hold up. Whoa! Wait.

STARK: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

GRACE: Caryn, this is very important to me.

STARK: OK.

GRACE: There is no doubt in my mind that Alice Laviolette is a very intriguing witness. And, that`s a problem for the state. Here`s my question. What good is she if she`s basing her opinion on what Arias has told her? Everything Arias says is a lie. So, no matter what a nice lady Laviolette may be, it`s all a pack of lies.

STARK: There you go. Nancy, we`re agreeing. This is what I`m saying is that you can`t really legally -- I mean it doesn`t make any sense -- professionally for them to be testifying about what Arias had to say when she lied -- there`s no validity to anything. So, I don`t care what tests you give her or what testimony she made about being abused. She is a liar, a pathological liar.

GRACE: OK. I`m hearing in my ear we can go back into the courtroom. Let`s go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: With perpetrators of domestic violence, they tend to come -- they don`t have to come from the worst abuse, but they are generally what are called exposed to domestic violence. So, the new terminology are children exposed to domestic violence.

WILLMOTT: Children exposed, OK. And, versus when we talk about women who are in abusive relationships or who are being abused. Is that what you`re talking about that you see them come from all different types of families?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes. They don`t have to come from abusive families to be abused.

WILLMOTT: Is there any research that talks about what happens if they come from an abusive family versus a healthy family? Is there any difference at all, then?

LAVIOLETTE: There`s less -- there`s -- I don`t know about research on that. I haven`t seen research on that. What we have with that is just a lot of talking to each other in the field about that. And, what we tend to see anecdotally is that women who come from chronic abuse tend to repeat abusive relationships more frequently. And, that women who come from basically healthy families tend to learn more from that situation, tend to leave more distance between relationships and tend to be less likely to repeat.

WILLMOTT: Less likely to go into another abusive relationship, you mean?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, yes.

WILLMOTT: OK. Is there -- In the women that you`ve treated regarding either psychological abuse or physical abuse, is there something that women universally have been telling you about psychological or emotional abuse?

LAVIOLETTE: Women generally say that psychological and verbal abuse are worse for them than physical. Part of that is because there`s usually a lot on greater distance between episodes of physical abuse and the psychological -- and you know, psychological, emotional, verbal abuse tend to create the mood in the relationship. But, it also is happening more frequently --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We have to remember that the defenses is paying this nice lady, Alyce Laviolette, $350 an hour for her testimony. Right now she`s going on $3,000 for yesterday and today alone. That doesn`t count all of the hours of research she will bill to us, the taxpayers. Let`s see, cost for four days, going on nearly $7,500.

Estimated cost for about six days is nearing $10,000. Now, I`m not saying that this lady will say anything to make a dollar, but what I am saying is that as educated and articulate as she may be, she is basing her analysis, her diagnosis, so to speak, on what Arias has told her. And, when you don`t know a horse, look at the track record. We know Arias has a track record of lying.

As we go to break, remember, we`re taking you right back into the courtroom for more testimony. The family album is back with photos tonight of the Iowa friends, "The Wilsons." Jessica and Hailey love swimming, zoos, picnics, coloring. Share your photos at hlntv.com/nancygrace. Then click on "Nancy`s Family Album."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE (voice-over): OK. Let`s go straight back into the courtroom, please take it off pauses speaking of money everybody. There`s a hearing tomorrow morning. The defense strive the cost of witness and the whole defense a big seeker from the taxpayer. I want to know where my money is going.

WILLMOTT: You know it when it is happening too.

LAVIOLETTE: Yes. I mean one thing about physical abuse is if somebody abuse you can say, "I got hit." If somebody says something says to you, and you`re not quite sure, it can -- you feel like you`ve been stunned but you can`t exactly explain why you feel like you`ve been stunned and then of course there`s much more obvious psychological abuse too. But, there`s very subtle -

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE (voice-over): OK. So, he said something mean to her so she stabbed him 29 times and shot her. Am I hearing that?

LAVIOLETTE: And you can take more than one way, but there`s an edge to it and you know that it means something other than the nice way.

WILLMOTT: Is that what are you talking about earlier about the switching of perceptions that the person -- I think he gave us the example of the person getting tired --

LAVIOLETTE: Yes.

WILLMOTT: That the partner comes home and says "Hey, I got a new job" and "Oh, they must be hiring anybody," you know. And, then he explains himself to say, "Oh, no you just misunderstood me?"

LAVIOLETTE: Right.

WILLMOTT: So, is that an example of subtle psychological or emotional abuse,

LAVIOLETTE: That is an example of --

GRACE (voice-over): What is she saying? Has she seen the pictures of Travis Alexander slashed to death and shot in the shower stall? And, they are talking about, "you hurt my feelings." You said an insult to me. This is a murder trial. This is not a tea party.

LAVIOLETTE: Wow, are you gaining weight? You know. You look great, you know, I don`t care if you gain weight. You know, they can go on. They can say things like, "You know, I thought anybody would be able to figure that out and then laugh about it. Or they call you a name and then laugh about it. Oh, I didn`t mean that."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. We`re pausing just a second. We`re going to take you right back in. Jean Casarez joining me at the courthouse. Is she actually talking about comments about weight or belittling someone as what, a trigger to murder?

JEAN CASAREZ, HNL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Nancy, this has been a college course today in domestic violence and battered women. As I`m listening in the courtroom right now, I am hearing her say so many things. But, this is a death penalty case. Death is different.

And, here`s the thing about her, Nancy. She doesn`t cast blame on anyone. She is just there to explain. Even the batter, she is trying to explain and understand why they do what they do. And, Nancy, so far we have not heard the word Jodi Arias. We haven`t heard the word Travis Alexander. It is all generalities.

GRACE: And, Jean Casarez, you and Beth and Alexis Weed, they`re not just reporters or correspondents. They are lawyers, too. We all know as lawyers that this general discussion has nothing to do with this case is inadmissible, all right? Now, what I wonder, Beth Karas, is the jury actually falling for this? Because some court watchers believe this witness may be able to sway this jury to acquit Jodi Arias.

BETH KARAS, HNL CORRESPONDENT: You know, the jurors are not asking questions at this point, but she hasn`t talked about Jodi Arias yet. So, jurors are seemed to be listening to her, but they`re not putting questions in the basket.

There was litigation before trial that the state`s rebuttal witness cannot opine that Travis Alexander was not a batterer. So, I believe this witness cannot say he was a batterer because he`s not alive to be interviewed.

GRACE: Ooh. Good point, Beth. With me is Tonya Young Williams, a domestic violence survivor and advocate. Tonya, I`d like to hear your take on all of this.

TONYA YOUNG WILLIAMS, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SURVIVOR: Nancy, as I listen to this, she`s speaking, as we said in broad strokes, and she`s not pointing out Jodi or Travis. However, I do think that her position here is not to try to convince the jurors that Jodi was in fact a victim of domestic violence. I think she`s trying to plant in their heads that Travis has all of these personality traits of a perpetrator, an abuser. And, I think that`s her greatest strength to the defense.

However, as one who is a survivor and one who speaks to women, all of the time, who look at me because I`ve been there and I`ve done that, we are standing together saying Jodi doesn`t exhibit any of the traits. When she was on the stand, she didn`t tell her story of abuse in the way that you felt she had been there and experienced pain, whether it was emotional --

GRACE: I get it.

WILLIAMS: -- or physical.

GRACE: I get it.

WILLIAMS: So, it doesn`t matter what this woman says.

GRACE: I want to follow up on what Tonya Young Williams just said. Speaking of all of the attributes of a batterer, everyone that she has listed as the bad guy fits Jodi Arias, Matt Zarrell.

MATT ZARRELL, PROGRAM PRODUCER: Yes. I can take your point by point. So, one thing she focus on was jealousy. So, an example here is that Arias was the one who cornered our guest Clancy Talbot, in the bathroom at a prepaid legal event confronting her about Travis. Also followed Travis his new girlfriend Marie Hall on a date with Travis.

She also said the controlling behavior, drove 90 minutes to confront a girl, but the ex-boyfriend Matt McCartney had cheated on her with and texted a girl from Travis` phone while he was in the shower. Also, main calling that attacks the character, threats to kill herself or others, destruction of property. All examples that she gave that the abuser would have. However, a lot of it she was describing Jodi Arias.

GRACE: You know, you`re right. And, I hope they turn that around on her. I guarantee you, Martinez -- we`re going to take you right back into the courtroom. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE (voice-over): If you`re like me, you don`t want to miss one word of testimony. Let`s go in the courtroom.

LAVIOLETTE: How many ways that people can psychologically abuse. But what happens and what`s important about it is that it becomes a mood in the relationship. It`s not something that somebody says and then they don`t say it again. It`s something where there`s a consistency in the treatment. There is a consistency in a way someone is treated.

WILLMOTT: OK. And, does that make it more difficult with the subtlety? Does that make it more difficult than for somebody to either understand that it is happening or report it or tell somebody else?

LAVIOLETTE: It is absolutely makes it difficult. Because you -- it`s hard to tell somebody, well, you know, somebody I love said something to me, and I`m not sure if they meant it or they said this to me and somebody would say, well, you know, anybody could say that.

But it`s the repetition. It`s not saying -- it doesn`t have to be the same thing. But, it`s the repetition that creates the mood that creates the belief that says, "This is who I am." You know, this is -- this is what the person I love actually thinks of me. This is how they think I ought to be treated. This is what they think should be said to me.

WILLMOTT: Incidentally, does that have more impact on somebody when it`s somebody that we love who tells us these things versus somebody that we don`t know?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes. Absolutely it does. I mean it`s not fun to hear things about who you are from people you don`t know. But, I do public speaking, and so -- you know, sometimes I get an evaluation that`s not great. And --

MARTINEZ: Objection, relevance.

JUDGE: Overruled.

LAVIOLETTE: And, and when I look at that, I think, "Well, gee, I`ve got these others and they`re all good." And, this person doesn`t know me. And, if they make constructive criticism that`s great, you know, and I can look at it. But, if they`re just saying something to sort of be mean, you know, it doesn`t feel good. But, they don`t know me. They`re not my family. They`re not the people who I respect and care about their opinion, like that.

I mean, I care what people who are close to me thinks. Most of us care about what our friends and our family. We care about what they think about us. And, so when somebody who loves us is tearing us apart -- I mean, I don`t think there`s anything that hurts much worse than that.

WILLMOTT: Can we talk about the history --

GRACE (voice-over): Now, I`m getting floods of e-mails saying that this domestic violence expert is pounding, pounding, pounding, domestic violence, but that is irrelevant to this case.

Maybe Martinez is sitting back just like he did with Dick -- what was his last name? Samuels, Richard Samuels has finally pounced. Maybe that`s what`s happening.

LAVIOLETTE: You know, there`s such a range with that behavior, but there`s also a range in -- in the level of what people do. There`s a range in their childhood histories. So, I`m not sure --

WILLMOTT: So as a -- well, we talked about the common risk marker, in other words being somebody who`s coming from a traumatic childhood or a violent childhood.

MARTINEZ: Objection. May we approach, please?

JUDGE: Order. You may approach, pleas.

WILLMOTT: You may.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We remember American hero, army private Charles High, 21, Albuquerque. National Defense Service medal, army service ribboned parents Charles and Kimberlea. Stepmother Cherry, brother Jonathan. Charles high, American hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE (on camera): Unleash the lawyers. Renee Rockwell, Michael Mazzariello. All right, Michael, what do you believe Martinez` plan is?

MAZZARIELLO: I think he had it slow steady. He knows primacy. He knows recency. He beat up that psychologist so bad, Nancy. So, he figured she`s nice. She is doing well. I don`t think he is damaging his case whatsoever, but I think when it`s his time, he`s going to cross her like we`ve seen before.

GRACE: You know what, I don`t think he`s going to attack her, Martinez the way he attack -- or may be he will --

MAZZARIELLO: No. No, you know she`s too grandmotherish. And, you know --

GRACE: What about Renee --

MAZZARIELLO: She`s a good witnessed too, Nancy.

ROCKWELL: I agree. I don`t think he`s going to attack her, because you know what? The jury`s going to come to her rescue, Nancy. And, then when they do that, they`re going to be aligned with her. And, they`re going to buy into everything she is saying.

GRACE: You know, but I kind of agree with Maz on this. I think that he`s sitting back because it is not hurting him. I mean all three of us, how many times have we sat there in court. Didn`t bother to object, because it`s not hurting us --

MAZZARIELLO: It`s not hurting us.

GRACE: Why object when you know there is no problem with it. Everyone, we are bringing you all of the live testimony right now. Dr. Drew is coming up. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern and until then. Good night, friend.

END