Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Battle Between LaViolette and Arias Prosecutor Continues
Aired April 09, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You told me you found the defendant to be truthful.
ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE EXPERT: I found her to be credible, yes, I did.
JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: The truth is, I did not hurt Travis.
MARTINEZ: Did you speak to her father about her truthfulness growing up?
LAVIOLETTE: No, I did not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She hid everything from us and always has.
LAVIOLETTE: Her pattern of untruthfulness.
MARTINEZ: Was after the murder, correct?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was (INAUDIBLE) probably 14 then, and she`s never been honest with us ever since then.
MARTINEZ: There are always two sides to every issue, aren`t there.
LAVIOLETTE: The truth is worse than either story.
MARTINEZ: You didn`t talk to Mr. Alexander, did you.
LAVIOLETTE: No, I did not.
MARTINEZ: Because he`s been killed, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes. There were collateral sources that said she was manipulative.
MARTINEZ: That the defendant was manipulative in her interaction with men, correct?
LAVIOLETTE: He says she used them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) attempted anal sex once, but she didn`t like it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it at her insistence or his request?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t ask.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, maybe I`m just old fashioned. I don`t know. I just -- I didn`t ask because she said she didn`t like it.
LAVIOLETTE: My expertise is in domestic violence, not in orgasms.
MARTINEZ: If she is manipulative with men, you would agree that Travis Alexander was a man, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes, he was.
MARTINEZ: In basing your opinion, you based it on the word of one person that was involved in the relationship, right?
LAVIOLETTE: If you were in my group, I would ask you to take a time- out, Mr. Martinez.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
After Jodi Arias slashes and shoots her lover, Travis Alexander, to death, leaving his body to rot in a dripping-wet shower stall, bombshell tonight. Right now, a ferocious fight raging on between the prosecution and Arias`s second, Alyce LaViolette. After weeks on the stand, LaViolette finally admitting Arias may have lied to her all along, rendering LaViolette`s diagnosis absolutely worthless!
The prosecution has been shredding LaViolette all day long, revealing LaViolette did not try to discover the truth, even when she is confronted with evidence from Arias`s co-workers, her friends, even her own father, who all insist Arias is a manipulative liar, lying since childhood, but LaViolette inexplicably still believing Arias`s web of lies. Well, that may be OK in the outside world, but this is the murder trial, where the sole aim of everyone is to seek the truth.
As fireworks continue to blast in the courtroom, jury questions are piling up, so we all know what`s coming.
Welcome, everyone. We are camped out live in front of that Phoenix courthouse, bringing you the very latest. Right now, let`s go straight into the courtroom for testimony.
MARTINEZ: Let`s assume a pattern of jealous behavior. That`s what we`re talking about. Can we assume that for purposes of this discussion?
LAVIOLETTE: So you`re assuming...
MARTINEZ: No, I`m asking you to just think about this in terms of a pattern of jealous behavior. Can you do that?
LAVIOLETTE: You`re asking me to hypothetical?
MARTINEZ: Yes, of course.
LAVIOLETTE: And a hypothetical that I have no evidence of.
MARTINEZ: It`s a hypothetical, ma`am. Can you do that?
LAVIOLETTE: I can sure try.
MARTINEZ: Let`s assume that the defendant has a pattern, a hypothetical pattern of jealousy. You don`t see a pattern of jealousy in the journals, do you.
LAVIOLETTE: No, I don`t.
MARTINEZ: But that lack of pattern in these journals could be because of the law of attraction because that`s a negative energy kind of emotion or pattern, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. Speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
MARTINEZ: Well, this law of attraction, this energy that you`ve talked about, you`re saying that a pattern of jealousy is a positive thing under the law of attraction?
LAVIOLETTE: I never said that.
MARTINEZ: It`s a negative thing, isn`t it.
LAVIOLETTE: A pattern of jealousy is a negative thing.
MARTINEZ: Yes! Right. And so that goes against the law of attraction, doesn`t it, where you put out positive vibes, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And so if the defendant exhibited a pattern of jealousy throughout her life and didn`t write about it in those journals, the reason could be because of the law of attraction that you`ve talked to us about, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. Speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
MARTINEZ: Right?
LAVIOLETTE: Nobody has indicated she has a pattern of jealousy.
MARTINEZ: I just indicated it to you.
LAVIOLETTE: You`ve indicated it in...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. (INAUDIBLE)
LAVIOLETTE: ... in a hypothetical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
MARTINEZ: I indicated it to you, and you`re saying that even if it`s -- my point is this. This pattern of jealousy, if there is one, would not show up in those journals because she wouldn`t write about it, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Probably not.
MARTINEZ: And ma`am, with regard to this pattern of jealousy, one of the things that we can look at for the pattern of jealousy is what an individual has done -- in this case, the defendant -- in her other relationships, right? That`s something to look at, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: Not only is it what they do, but how they handle things, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: You`re aware, for example, that the defendant dated somebody by the name of Robert or Bobby Juarez (ph) right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: And that when the defendant dated Robert or Bobby Juarez, they broke up at one point. You`re familiar with that, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: One of the other things that the defendant testified to was that after they broke up, she got on the telephone and called Mr. Juarez...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. Misstates the entire point of that testimony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Approach, please.
GRACE: While they are in a sidebar, let`s go to everyone camped outside the courthouse, everyone taking their calls. First to you, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, all day long, Martinez has been ripping LaViolette to shreds.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Nancy, it has gone from lies to manipulative behavior, really looking at the patterns of Jodi Arias for her whole life, not just in this little bubble of the written word, but her whole life from her father at age 14 saying, We couldn`t believe anything she said beyond that, to right now, and manipulations and jealousies, the patterns with her boyfriends.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at exactly what Jean is telling us about. It seems as if LaViolette has ignored co-workers, Arias`s friends, even her own parents, who tell police -- and we`ve caught it in police interrogation tapes saying, She has lied to us since childhood, been deceptive and manipulative. Take a listen to what her own father said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she was in 8th grade, she got busted for growing marijuana with her Tupperware, putting it on top of the roof. We found it and called the sheriff department. And they busted her and then rounded up some of her friends or something, and then we searched her room. That was the first time we`ve ever searched her room.
After that, she was so -- she was kind of, like, something turned in her head that we were nosy parents, and we were going to -- we were going to search everything she has. So she hid everything from us, and always has since then. She`s never been honest with us since then. And she was only 14 then. She has never been honest with us ever since then.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is what happened during the police interrogation of Arias`s family. You know, out to you, Beth Karas, also with us at the courthouse. Beth it seems as if the prosecution is right. I mean, many people have labeled Martinez as a big bully, but the reality is, he`s right. It seems as if LaViolette went into the interview with Arias with a bent, with a predisposition, and has ignored a lot of what friends, co- workers, even family have said about her being a liar.
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": Yes, and she really didn`t do herself any favors when she said that 90 percent of communication is nonverbal because almost everything that she did outside of this case, outside of 44 hours of interviewing Jodi Arias, was to look at the written word.
She didn`t see any of the speakers. And even when confronted with the phone sex tape -- that`s the only time you got to hear Travis Alexander and sort of assess his inflection, even you couldn`t see him, isn`t that better than the written word? I mean, even you said 90 percent of communication is nonverbal. And she said, Well, you know, I guess. She had a hard time answering it easily.
GRACE: Yes, she really did, Beth. You`re right about that.
Everyone, I`m about to take you straight into the courtroom. Also joining us tonight, Shawn (ph) Alexander, roommate and friend of Travis, who had Jodi Arias on speakerphone the night Travis Alexander`s body was found. And also with me, special guest, sister of O.J. Simpson murder victim Ron Goldman. Kim Goldman, is with us -- we all remember Kim during the Simpson murder trial -- with advice to Travis`s family.
But right now, I don`t want to miss one moment of testimony. Let`s go in the courtroom, Liz.
MARTINEZ: She and Mr. Juarez broke up. You knew that, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: After they broke up, the defendant was working at a restaurant. And you`re aware of that, right?
LAVIOLETTE: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: If not, assume that that`s what she testified to, OK?
LAVIOLETTE: OK.
MARTINEZ: And she also testified that after the breakup, an older gentleman with a dog-eared Bible came into her restaurant. Assume that. Can you do that?
LAVIOLETTE: All right.
MARTINEZ: Do you know anything about it?
LAVIOLETTE: No, I don`t.
MARTINEZ: And when this individual came in, the defendant testified that this individual was prophesizing the end of the world. Do you know anything about that?
LAVIOLETTE: No.
MARTINEZ: Assume it, then. And according to the defendant, because this individual came in talking about the end of the world, she decided to pick up the phone and call Bobby Juarez. Did you know anything about that?
LAVIOLETTE: No.
MARTINEZ: That`s what she testified to. After she picked up the phone and called Mr. Juarez, she identified herself. Assume that that`s what she testified to. Do you know anything about it?
LAVIOLETTE: No.
MARTINEZ: He hung up on her. Assume that. In your assessment as a domestic violence person who has this schooling, in and of itself, if that`s the first event, that`s really not something that`s too much of concern, is it.
LAVIOLETTE: No, it isn`t.
MARTINEZ: It`s just an individual, as you previously indicated, not wanting to let go, correct?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: Sometimes when people break up, one person wants to let go and the other person usually doesn`t, is the way it works out, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Right.
MARTINEZ: Let`s assume that the defendant also testified that after Mr. Juarez hung up on her the first time, that she called him a second time. Now it`s beginning to get a little bit dicier because she won`t go away, right?
LAVIOLETTE: It`s not atypical. It`s not unusual.
MARTINEZ: It may not be atypical, but it`s not the first telephone call, it`s the second one. It`s now becoming -- if we`re going to start using the word "pattern," it`s now starting to become a bit of a pattern, right, because it hasn`t happened once, it`s happening again, right? It`s the start of a pattern, right? It could be.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: So you did consider the issue of secondary gain and decided that there was no problem with that particular issue in this case.
LAVIOLETTE: I decided that there was domestic violence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I`m for the 10 Commandments. I`m for, Thou shall not kill. But is it wrong to want the perpetrator to get the needle?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She just told me she got a gun. I said, What do you need a gun for? She goes, Where I`m going, I might need one. OK (INAUDIBLE) where are you going? I can`t tell you.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTINEZ: The information that you considered was that growing up, the defendant liked to play the victim, right?
LAVIOLETTE: From one source. That was one source.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Yesterday marked one year since I broke up with Travis. If it weren`t for his abrupt and tragic passing, I might be filled with a sense of growth, progression and independence."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, when I hear that, it makes me sick. She`s writing this entire journal. It`s all a big, fat lie. She`s got blood under her fingernails, caked on her hands, and she`s writing these elaborate journal entries about how she`s supposed to move on after Travis`s death and they`re going to catch the perpetrator, and the needle`s too good for them. The whole while, she`s the killer herself.
We`re waiting to take you back into the courtroom as the lawyers lock horns at the judge`s bench in a sidebar. Liz, do you have any of those journal entries for me that the jury hasn`t seen? Yes, let`s go to those.
Unleash the lawyers, Jeff Gold, defense attorney in the Phoenix area. He`s camped outside the courthouse with us. Also with us, Atlanta lawyer Holly Hughes.
Jeff Gold, it is so dangerous to refer to these journals, you know, but the defense used them to their advantage, and now it`s being fired right back at them in the courtroom.
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, it is. I mean, I think that Alyce has held up pretty well, I mean, you know, compared to Samuels, and Juan is using them quite effectively against her.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait!
GOLD: But I don`t think...
GRACE: Is that the gold standard, Dick Samuels?
GOLD: I don`t think he`s -- yes, I mean, I`ll tell you, in comparison...
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) awful.
GOLD: ... having Samuels come first was a real good thing for the defense here.
GRACE: Actually, you`re right.
GOLD: You know, LaViolette is not an expert really -- she`s not an expert by trade. She`s...
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: ... and I`m really surprised she`s held up this well. She`s a tough cookie.
GRACE: You know, Holly Hughes, he`s right. She is not an expert in the true sense of the word amongst us lawyers. When we talk about experts in this sense, we`re talking about psychiatrists, psychologists that treat patients. She gives speeches and she writes dissertations and she gives comments, writes books on the issue, but she is not a treating physician in the true sense of the word. She`s not.
HOLLY HUGHES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s correct. She has no medical degree. But she has a very specialized field of expertise, which is domestic violence, which she has quite rightfully reminded the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, over and over and over. As you see those fireworks, what she is saying -- I see what you`re trying to do, Mr. Martinez, you`re trying to take me into an area I`m not an expert in.
GRACE: You know, she has done that very often. Caryn Stark, psychologist, you rephrase it for me. I`m just a trial lawyer, Caryn. And what I`m trying to convey is that Jeff Gold, the defense attorney at the Phoenix courthouse with all of our staff -- he`s right. She is not an expert in the true sense of the word. She`s not the typical expert you see, and she has told the jury she has testified for the defense far more than she has the prosecution.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: And I agree with you, Nancy, in the fact that this woman has no clinical experience. So what you get from that is the fact that she really shouldn`t be the expert in this case. She`s trying to say that she knows that Jodi Arias has been the victim of domestic violence, and yet she doesn`t have experience dealing with individuals. So how could she possibly know truth, untruth, any of that?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Caryn, did you hear the part where she said that she ignored and didn`t want to talk to Arias about anal sex with Travis Alexander because she`s, quote, "old-fashioned" and didn`t want to talk about anal sex? Well, you know, the first time I ever tried a rape trial, I had never talked about a lot of that before, especially in front of people, but I had to because that was my job. And that`s like going in to -- for a doctor`s exam, and they go, Well, you know, I`m old-fashioned, you don`t have to take your clothes off. You just tell me what`s wrong. OK, that doesn`t work.
STARK: No, Nancy, and you picked up on something very significant. The fact that, what, she`s old-fashioned? I mean, here you have somebody, and anal sex is all over this case. So she needs to be able to talk about anything that comes up.
GRACE: And Caryn, don`t get me wrong. I`m not judging. I don`t care who`s having...
STARK: She`s judging!
GRACE: ... anal sex or not having anal sex. It`s none of my business.
STARK: Nancy, she`s judging.
GRACE: But what I`m saying is they`re using that as a symptom of domestic abuse, of him forcing her to do that, when it turns out she`s done that with many, many boyfriends before Travis Alexander.
Hold on, Caryn, Holly, Jeff. We`re going right back into the courtroom.
MARTINEZ: It`s the start of a pattern, right? It could be.
LAVIOLETTE: It`s possible.
MARTINEZ: All right.
LAVIOLETTE: But it`s also typical for people to make more than one call.
MARTINEZ: Ma`am, whether it`s typical or not, I`m asking whether or not it could be the start of a pattern. That`s what I`m asking.
LAVIOLETTE: It could be.
MARTINEZ: And during this second telephone call -- assume that the defendant has testified that during this second telephone call, she again was able to get ahold of Mr. Juarez. And after Mr. Juarez knew who it was, he again hung up on her. Assume that.
In that relationship, assume that they get together. And after they get together, they break up again. And after they break up, Mr. Juarez is staying at his place of residence...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
`LAVIOLETTE: I have no evidence prior to Mr. Alexander that she was manipulative with men.
MARTINEZ: ... that you`re disbelieving what was said at the Purple Plum (ph) about here being manipulative. That`s what you`re telling me, right?
LAVIOLETTE: ... believe she was manipulative at that time, it doesn`t mean I believe, as a characteristic, that she is.
MARTINEZ: So in a sense, what you`re saying is you`re a human lie detector, right?
LAVIOLETTE: I would not call myself a human lie detector. I think that mischaracterizes me.
MARTINEZ: (INAUDIBLE) manipulative towards men at that point, right?
LAVIOLETTE: It appears that could be true. That was their perception.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Whoa! You know, I`ve tried a lot of cases, including homicide, and this is making my head spin, back and forth and back and forth. But this is what the prosecution has got to do to unmask not just LaViolette but Jodi Arias but LaViolette`s basing her assessment on Arias`s pack of lies.
Out to the lines. Billy in Florida. Hi, Billy. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I know this has got to be short tonight, but I`m going to make this simple. People have to remember that Juan is the jury`s voice now. The jury is also upset, just like we all are in the world right now. And they are also -- he is also speaking out for juror number five.
The jury is going to want Alyce to be taken off the stand. What Juan should really do at this point is say, You know what, Alyce? At this point, I have no more questions. We`ve seen where you`re coming from. She has actually made $30,000 over 44 hours in interviews with Jodi and 40 hours now...
GRACE: Well, Billy in Florida, it ain`t over yet because isn`t it true, Jean Casarez, the jury questions are piling up?
CASAREZ: They sure are, Nancy! We are hearing that there are so many jury questions, they can`t even count them yet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: In your notes, doesn`t it indicate that the defendant actually signed copies of the manifesto to distribute in case she became famous?
LAVIOLETTE: I believe those were in my notes.
ARIAS: Before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?
I did a little tilt on my head and gave a little smile. I knew it would be all over the Internet. So why not?
(singing)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her friend was talking about Jodi liking to play the victim.
ARIAS: It`s not fair!
(singing): Divine night!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, I`m glad I got every last lyric of "Oh Night Divine." That was Jodi Arias winning the "American Idol" behind bars contest. Another battle is raging right now because of the time difference. The testimony ongoing in an Arizona courtroom. A battle between the prosecution, Juan Martinez, and the defense`s single most important witness next to Arias herself, and that is Alyce LaViolette. And right now it is Juan Martinez, the prosecutor`s duty to dismantle her piece by piece. Let`s go to the courtroom.
JUAN MARTINEZ: Assume that the defendant then said, that indicated that, even though they were broken up, she was still attempting to contact Mr. Juarez (ph). Assume that. She testified to that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled. The jury is directed to recall the testimony previously provided in this trial. You may continue.
MARTINEZ: And she was doing things in this attempt to contact him. According to her, she was buying things like groceries and leaving them at his doorstep. Are you aware of anything like that?
LAVIOLETTE: No.
MARTINEZ: Assume that that`s part of the facts in this case. You previously testified that people who are starting to have this pattern, that`s one of the things that they do, they look for excuses to keep contact with the person who has left them, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Different situation at the end of a relationship. People oftentimes don`t let go right away, but I want to see how far it went and what .
MARTINEZ: I`m telling you how far it went. That`s what the defendant testified to.
LAVIOLETTE: All right.
MARTINEZ: That she left things like groceries at his doorstep .
LAVIOLETTE: All right.
MARTINEZ: . for whatever reason. So, again, even though the relationship is over, that indicates that there`s still, on the part of the defendant, some action to keep contact, doesn`t it?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And, again, if we take into account the two calls that were involved and now this contact, it does seem that there`s the beginning of a pattern where the defendant is doing something in a positive fashion to keep the relationship going when the other party is done, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. The foundation and timeline as to over what time period this is actually occurring.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
MARTINEZ: Let`s say it happened within a year. All right? Will you assume that?
LAVIOLETTE: That there`s a year of constant contact?
MARTINEZ: No. Let me put it to you this way. Assume that there`s a breakup, there`s the calls, they get back together, they break up again, and then there`s this contact, leaving things at the door, and that all that happens, let`s say, between six to eight months apart, this whole thing. Assume that.
LAVIOLETTE: OK.
MARTINEZ: And then assume that the defendant told us that they break up again and that the individual, Bobby Juarez, moved to Medford. Do you know anything about that?
LAVIOLETTE: I don`t know about Bobby Juarez. I don`t know much about Bobby Juarez.
MARTINEZ: Well, assume that he moved to a place called Medford, Oregon in the time (ph) of the testimony, correct?
And after -- and he started to live with an individual by the name of Matthew McCartney. Do you know anything about that?
LAVIOLETTE: I do know about that.
MARTINEZ: Assume that after Mr. Juarez moved to Medford, Oregon, that the defendant, even though they`d broken up and she`s living somewhere else, she begins .
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. (inaudible) with regard to the breakup at that point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled. Again, the jury is directed to recall the testimony. You may continue.
MARTINEZ: After the breakup and Mr. Juarez is in Medford, Oregon, living with Matthew McCartney, she testified that she then started going there on weekends. Assume that. Doesn`t that begin to show a pattern of, number one, telephone calls, then contact at the door, and then after the individual, and they`re broken up, moves away, she`s still starting - trying to keep contact. Doesn`t that -- and this is over a period of many months -- isn`t that the beginnings of a pattern?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection, judge. Mischaracterizing Miss Arias` testimony as to when the breakup occurred. They were not broken up as to when she was traveling. So the hypothetical is not true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Approach, please.
GRACE: Dear Lord in heaven, help us all. They`re arguing about whether she was broken up with a guy before, what, she stalked him? This is a murder case. I don`t care who she broke up with in the eighth grade, but if they want to have a sidebar, fine. Because with me right now, I have two very special guests, Shaun Alexander, Travis` roommate, and also had Arias on speakerphone the night his roommate`s dead body was discovered. Also with me, Kim Goldman. We all know Kim and recall her bravery during the Orenthal O.J. Simpson double murder trial. She is the sister of Ron Goldman with some very critical advice for the Alexander family. Joining me right now at the courthouse is Shawn Alexander. Shawn, I`ve just got to ask you what happened the night that Arias was on speakerphone? The night Travis` body was found. I mean, I`m just thinking back to the night that my fiance was murdered and the chaos and the disbelief, and now you`re telling us about the night that Travis Alexander`s body was found. What did Arias have to say? And you heard it on speakerphone.
SHAUN ALEXANDER: Yeah, we had called real late to go out to Travis` house, and my best friend, Brent Hyatt, was there, and kept getting phone calls over and over and over again from Jodi. And the cops told him not to take it, but you know, he was friends with her. We knew her. And so, we didn`t know what was true and what wasn`t true, who did what at that point. We had no idea what had happened. We just found out he died. So we didn`t know. And he answered the phone. Put it on speakerphone, and me and my wife and he were just sitting there and listening to her. And she was just sobbing. What`s going on? What`s happening? Nobody would tell me anything. Nobody is telling me anything. What`s happening? Why is - Why - what`s happening? Is Travis dead? I hear he`s dead. They`re saying he`s dead. They won`t tell me anything. Just - and when you originally went out there, you thought that she might have been involved on some level, but you didn`t really know, and listening to her side of it right then, you really kind of thought, well, maybe she didn`t have anything to do with this. Maybe this was a freak accident or somebody broke in or who knows? You know, you just didn`t know what to believe. But she makes a very believable case. And she`s very good at that.
GRACE: So, are you telling me that before you heard her sobbing on the phone, you had suspicions she was involved in the murder?
ALEXANDER: I - honestly - I only did just because of what everybody else was saying.
GRACE: And what were they saying
ALEXANDER: I only met Jodi once.
GRACE: What were they saying?
ALEXANDER: They were just, you know - it`s natural. I guess it was just natural for them to think that it was her because of the stalking fact and things like that.
GRACE: Well, no, no, actually - actually, Shaun, when somebody`s murdered, I don`t naturally think of the lover or the girlfriend. Naturally think that .
ALEXANDER: Yes.
GRACE: So, why was it natural that they thought - everybody thought she was responsible, in some way, for his murder?
ALEXANDER: You know, I mean just with the way that it ended with them and how she was always still involved.
GRACE: OK.
ALEXANDER: And it just seemed like a very strange, weird deal in general. So, you know, I don`t know. That`s just what they were thinking.
GRACE: So hearing her sobbing on the phone that night, you believed her?
ALEXANDER: Yeah. Absolutely.
GRACE: So what does that say to you?
ALEXANDER: Or I wouldn`t - I didn`t - you know, I didn`t know.
GRACE: Yeah. What does that say to you today about her believability?
ALEXANDER: And she`s very convincing, absolutely. And that`s the kind of scariest part about her, I guess, is that she`s very calculating, very manipulative, and very believable. And she`s good at lying. And I mean I don`t know if that`s the best thing to be good at, but she`s really good at it.
GRACE: How disgusted are you at her claims that Travis Alexander looked at child porn? I`m disgusted that she would say that about him.
ALEXANDER: Yeah.
GRACE: That`s not true.
ALEXANDER: You know, disgusted is -- disgusted one word, appalled, just pissed beyond belief. It`s so ridiculous that you can`t even put it into words, to be honest. That there`s no way - there`s no possible way. If you knew Travis at all, there`s no chance in the world that he was doing anything ridiculous like that.
GRACE: With me is Shaun Alexander, roommate and friend of Travis Alexander, who spoke to Arias the night Travis` body was found. Everyone, we`re about to take you right back into the courtroom. We can`t stop those sidebars. "The Family Album" is back showcasing your photos tonight. Florida friends say hello. The Correia family love the outdoors and the beach, here supporting Chris Hinton`s Florida National Guard deployment. Go to hlntv.com/NancyGrace, then click on "Nancy`s Family Album."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true that you are biased in favor of the defendant, yes or no?
LAVIOLETTE: I don`t believe I`m biased.
MARTINEZ: You seem to be having trouble answering my questions.
LAVIOLETTE: There are - there are numerous places where she talks about feeling bad about herself.
MARTINEZ: As 90 percent of our communication is nonverbal. That`s what you said, right?
LAVIOLETTE: I explained how I meant that, Mr. Martinez.
MARTINEZ: Do you have a problem understanding the question. Tell me what negative things .
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking you straight back into the courtroom. With me, Kim Goldman, the sister of Ron Goldman, offering her advice to Travis Alexander`s family as this goes on and on. Unrelenting in the courtroom. Kim, thank you for being with us.
KIM GOLDMAN: Sure.
GRACE: What are your thoughts and your analysis?
GOLDMAN: Oh, wow, I would -- my thoughts are this is bringing me right back to our case and the ad nauseam testimony and witnesses on the stand, and how I just remember Barry Sheck going after Dennis Fung relentlessly. But, you know, this is what the prosecution needs to do. This is - the witness on the stand right now is a big witness for the defense. And so, this is what his job is, to poke holes in everything that she`s saying and to discredit her. And unfortunately, like you said in the beginning of the show, we have to sit and wait, and it`s exhausting. And you just have to hang in there and hope that what he`s doing is effective, which I think he is.
GRACE: How hard, Kim, was it, to sit in court and look at the back of O.J. Simpson`s head, you know, sitting ahead of you, and listening and never being able to say anything?
GOLDMAN: Yeah, I learned how to sit on my hands a lot and bite the insides of my cheeks. It`s very frustrating, and I know that`s what Travis` family is dealing with right now, wanting to scream and wanting to defend him because he`s not here to defend himself. Wanting to cheer on the prosecutor, wanting to probably submit questions to the prosecutor. I know I used to do that with Marsha and Chris. I`d write little notes, then send them up, not that they needed my assistance. But sometimes, you know, when you`re in the audience, you have a different perspective then when you`re the prosecutor. And so, I think, sometimes that assistance from the families are helpful, and it`s empowering for them. But they`re - I`m sure they`re exhausted at this point. And I totally empathize with where they`re at.
GRACE: I`m just thinking back to the trial, after my fiance was murdered. It was just such a horrible, horrible haze. It`s like a big blur, and I ended up being a witness during the trial. If you have any advice to Travis` family, who have basically been instructed they can`t show any emotion in the courtroom whatsoever .
GOLDMAN: Yeah.
GRACE: What is your advice, Kim?
GOLDMAN: You know, to use their resources, their support circle, and to know who they can rely on and who they can trust, it`s very scary when you have a whole country so obsessed and so attached to every element of this case. And we were instructed the same thing. We weren`t allowed to show any emotion. And, you know, that`s really a disservice to what the victims and their families experience. So I would just hope that they find a place to release, an outlet. There`s plenty of support circles outside and services that are available to them. I know that they have people that are in their corner that love and care for them and are wishing them well.
GRACE: Kim, I know it may be hard for you to believe that there are millions of people praying for you and your family and your brother, and many of us still, still to this day, every time I hear the name O.J. Simpson, I say a prayer for Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman and their families because people believe that, when the trial is over, there`s closure. There is no closure after you are a tangential murder victim. I always tell people it`s like breaking your arm but you learn to flip a pancake anyway. Your arm is still broken .
GOLDMAN: Yeah.
GRACE: . and you just keep going. The trial doesn`t bring closure.
GOLDMAN: You learn to live with it. Right. I think for a lot of people it does. I think it`s easy - I mean I wrote an article in "Huffington Post" about closure and how I think it`s bias (ph). I think people throw that term around because it`s easy. It makes them feel good. But to a victim or a survivor, there`s no such thing. And it`s, you know, you`re constantly pouring salt in a wound. And, you know, it`s a difficult process, but we learn to live with it. And we learn to manage it, and, again, hopefully rely on people that we love and care about us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Straight back in the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained. You may continue.
MARTINEZ: Assume that they were broken up when Mr. Juarez moved to Medford. Assume that. OK? Will you do that? It`s (inaudible) hypothetical. Isn`t that a pattern developing here on the part of the defendant, a jealous sort of pattern, where Mr. Juarez and her are broken up. She`s making telephone calls. And after making telephone calls she then starts bringing him stuff over to his house. And then after he moves away she goes to the area where he has moved to. Assume that. Wouldn`t that be the beginning of a pattern?
LAVIOLETTE: But they`re - they`re not broken up.
MARTINEZ: No. I just said they were.
LAVIOLETTE: But that`s the hypothetical.
MARTINEZ: Yes.
LAVIOLETTE: The hypothetical. Because in reality, they`re not, OK?
MARTINEZ: You believe that they`re not. But let`s assume that hypothetically speaking they are broken up.
LAVIOLETTE: Would that be the beginning of a pattern?
MARTINEZ: Yes.
LAVIOLETTE: It could be the beginning of a pattern.
MARTINEZ: Let`s talk about Matthew McCartney. You`re familiar with the relationship involving the defendant and Mr. McCartney, correct?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: And in fact, the defendant sort of went from Mr. Juarez and started dating Mr. McCartney. Right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: And there came a point when they started dating, that for whatever reason, that was going to be a break up, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: And it was the defendant who refused to accept the breakup, correct?
LAVIOLETTE: She had a hard time with the breakup.
MARTINEZ: In other words, he wanted to break up, and she did not, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: And when they were going through this process, he believed that they were already broken up, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
MARTINEZ: He at some point, they broke up at some point, didn`t they?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And after they broke up, the defendant then confronted somebody by the name of Bianka (ph), correct?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. (inaudible) somebody after the breakup.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
LAVIOLETTE: And I don`t think it was a confrontation.
MARTINEZ: I didn`t say the confrontation. But it`s after the breakup that Ms. Arias, according to you, goes and talks to Bianka, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. He`s mischaracterizing the testimony.
MARTINEZ: I`m not talking about testimony. I`m talking about her understanding.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Captain Dale Goetz, 43, White, South Dakota. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal, Mother Hope, sisters Ann and Kim (ph), widow Christina. Three sons. Dale Goetz, American hero.
Right now straight back into the Arias courtroom.
MARTINEZ: Right?
LAVIOLETTE: I`m not sure if they were broken up or not. I only know that she went and talked to Bianka. She talked to Bianka about the break up. Yeah, I guess it was a breakup. She went to talk about - she said it was cheating. And she went to talk to Bianka about the cheating.
MARTINEZ: Do you remember writing about this? In your notes?
LAVIOLETTE: I`m sure that I did.
MARTINEZ: And isn`t it true that your notes indicate that .
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually .
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true that your notes indicate that they have already broken up when this talk between Matt -- between the defendant and Bianka took place?
LAVIOLETTE: I`d need to see my notes.
MARTINEZ: OK.
Take a look at example 613.
GRACE: Tonight, a special goodnight from friends, Allison, Kay and Becky. Aren`t they beautiful? And happy birthday to South Carolina friend Kathy Evans, who loves classic movies and her family. Happy birthday, Kathy!
Testimony nearing an end. "Dr. Drew" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, goodnight, friend.
END
