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Nancy Grace
Prosecution Psychologist Deflates Arias Defense Testimony
Aired April 16, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: When you walked into this clinical interview and you sat down to talk to her, when did you apologize to her?
JANEEN DEMARTE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I didn`t apologize to her.
MARTINEZ: Why not? Why wouldn`t you apologize? You read her journals, didn`t you?
DEMARTE: I did.
ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE EXPERT: My perspective, there was a need to apologize. I felt badly that I had invaded her private most, you know, ideas and thoughts that I`d read.
DEMARTE: I don`t see the need to apologize to anybody. That seems odd.
MARTINEZ: You are to see this individual, I don`t know, over 40 hours. Is there such a requirement, for example...
LAVIOLETTE: (INAUDIBLE) had a relationship other than the 44 hours that I`ve spent in jail with her.
DEMARTE: Extreme. Extreme. I`ve never heard of someone spending so much time.
MARTINEZ: It was a white lie that she told about what the triggering event was.
DEMARTE: No, other than it`s other evidence that Ms. Arias decided to lie on the test.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection.
MARTINEZ: Have you ever in your experience ever provided, for example, a book to somebody?
DEMARTE: No.
RICHARD SAMUELS, PSYCHOLOGIST: There is no ethical guideline regarding purchasing a self-help book for a client that you`ve just met.
DEMARTE: ... frequent abuse and threatening behavior.
-- examined the top two and three scales that were the highest.
-- tend to experience a lot of aggressiveness, hostility, defensiveness.
LAVIOLETTE: I have liked Jodi.
DEMARTE: She took a different approach, a much more subjective approach.
LAVIOLETTE: ... in terms of working with her.
DEMARTE: ... in that there was no testing that was conducted.
Ms. Arias`s booking profile, smiled as though it was a high school photo.
I found it to be strange and immature.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
After Jodi Arias slashes and shoots lover Travis Alexander to death, leaving him dead in a wet shower stall, bombshell tonight. After 38 grueling days, the defense rests. And just hours, only hours into Juan Martinez`s rebuttal case, Arias`s defense is in shreds!
Also, exclusive tonight, dozens of new photos of Jodi Arias and an intimate look at Arias`s childhood as her very best friend comes out of hiding, with us live tonight and taking your calls.
But first, to the Phoenix courthouse. Everyone, due to the time difference, court is still ongoing.
Let`s go straight into the courtroom.
MARTINEZ: Did you continue working in the area of domestic violence?
DEMARTE: Yes. When I moved here to Phoenix, I again was working at Arizona State Hospital.
MARTINEZ: And how does that -- I know that you worked there, but tell us about your experience with domestic violence there at the state hospital.
DEMARTE: I continued to evaluate and provide therapeutic services for individuals there. Again, many of them were exposed to domestic violence throughout their childhood or were the perpetrators of domestic violence.
MARTINEZ: And did you continue as part of your work experience to work with individuals involved in domestic violence?
DEMARTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And where was the place that you continued to do so after the Arizona State Hospital experience?
DEMARTE: When I worked at Bayless (ph) Behavioral Health Solutions -- that was where I was the clinical director -- there was a large population base that we worked with there. A lot of them were, unfortunately, exposed to domestic violence. We worked with a lot of children who had that exposure, in addition to women, grown women and men.
MARTINEZ: And in your practice now, do you still continue to work with people that have been involved in issues of domestic violence?
DEMARTE: Yes. In my private practice, I do.
MARTINEZ: And those -- what`s the frequency of those individuals?
DEMARTE: I see it relatively frequently. On any given week, I`m conducting anywhere between 8 to 16 evaluations, and I`ll see it at a minimum in half of those.
MARTINEZ: What is -- were there any courses -- well, what is battered woman`s syndrome?
DEMARTE: Battered woman`s syndrome is a term that was coined by Lenore Walker. It describes the symptoms and the presentations that are often seen in individuals who`ve been exposed to domestic violence.
MARTINEZ: Is there a diagnostic indication in DSM-IV as to diagnosing someone with battered woman`s syndrome or not?
DEMARTE: No, not in the DSM.
MARTINEZ: So what you`re telling us is that this individual named Lenore Walker -- did she sort of become the seminal figure in this area? Is that what we`re talking about?
DEMARTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And what is it that she described in terms of the battered woman`s syndrome? How is it that it became something that you are citing today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. (INAUDIBLE) foundation is to -- is this witness`s knowledge based on Ms. Walker`s research only.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
MARTINEZ: Did you read what Ms. Walker has written?
DEMARTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And what has she written about this battered woman`s syndrome, as it applies to your experience in this case?
DEMARTE: The research in this area has really developed over time. It`s really been a controversial diagnosis. I`m using that loosely because, again, it`s not found in the diagnostic and statistical manual. It`s developed over time in the sense that there`s been a the lot of researchers -- not just Lenore Walker. There`s a lot of researchers that have focused on battered women`s syndrome. And fortunate for people...
GRACE: OK, you`re not missing one word of testimony. Martinez accusing both defense witnesses of shoddy work, basing their opinions on biased findings after forming relationships with Arias.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Bill Sheaffer, Jeff Gold and Jason Oshins. Also with me at the courthouse right now, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session."
Jean, Martinez in just a few hours has already shredded 38 days of the defense. He did it by claiming both of the experts -- that would be Dick Samuels and Alyce LaViolette -- he accused them of shoddy work and basing their opinions on biased findings after former improper relationships with Arias.
In fact, even the jury asked LaViolette if there had been friendly touching or hugging with Arias. That`s bad, Jean.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": And the way Martinez did it was he just interwove Samuels`s testimony and LaViolette`s testimony, but really focused on, Would you ever be compassionate with someone you were examining? No, I would lose my objectivity.
GRACE: You know, after 38 days, it`s amazing to me, Bill Sheaffer, joining me from WFTV as an analyst, that he could slice it up in just a couple of hours with his rebuttal witness.
BILL SHEAFFER, WFTV LEGAL ANALYST: Well, he`s the master of cross- examination as to these expert witnesses. And what he has done, as you`ve said, is he has eviscerated their testimony. He`s going to then argue to the jury, Look, let`s cancel out the experts now and let`s go to the facts.
GRACE: I`ll be right back with Jason Oshins and Jeff Gold, but I`m hearing in my ear, joining us right now from an undisclosed location is Patti. This is the childhood friend, the long-time friend of Jodi Arias, Jodi Arias her bridesmaid in her wedding, has repeatedly visited Arias.
That`s are exclusive new photos of Arias. Tonight, an intimate look - - before we go back into the courtroom for testimony, an intimate look at Jodi Arias as she grows up. What was she like then? Was there any foreshadowing the kind of person that she would ultimately morph into?
Patti, thank you for being with us. These photos are very telling to me, but I`d like to hear your description of Jodi Arias and growing up with her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Patti?
GRACE: Patti, are you with me, dear?
PATTI, CHILDHOOD FRIEND OF JODI ARIAS (via telephone): Yes, I`m here.
GRACE: I`d like to hear your story of growing up with Jodi Arias and what these pictures reflect.
PATTI: Growing up with Jodi, it was a good childhood. She was a sweet girl, you know, the kind of girl that you just always wanted to be around. She was fun. She always had a smile on her face. She`s just the sweetest thing, and she was a great friend to have.
GRACE: You know, these photos really show the close nature of your relationship with her. In fact, Arias almost didn`t get to be in your wedding, and there`s a story behind that. What happened?
PATTI: Yes. I asked Jodi if she could be in my wedding, and she said due to her money situation that she couldn`t take off work. And you know, I told her, Well, that`s absolutely understandable. And you know, I went on about (ph). And my dad had ended up buying my -- I mean, I`m sorry, buying Jodi her bridesmaid dress and getting her down from where she lived at the time to where I lived.
And when I was going over to my mom`s house, I went to go get my wedding dress, and Jodi popped out of my brother`s bedroom and surprised me. So it was a pretty good surprise.
GRACE: You know, it`s amazing, in these photos, Patti, she looks so normal -- in fact, very, very attractive, almost glowing in some of these photos. What was she like at the wedding? What was that like?
PATTI: It`s funny that you use that word "glowing" because I use that word a lot. She was full of life and full of giving. You know, we had so much fun.
She offered her -- she offered her service since I didn`t have all -- I didn`t have all the money in the world to hire all these fancy photographers. So she -- as such a great friend, she offered to take my pictures. And so she, as such a great person, said, Hey, I`m going to take your pictures and make you this beautiful...
GRACE: Photo album. We are seeing the photos now of Jodi Arias, including video. With us is Arias`s longtime friend since childhood, Patti, joining us. My heart really hurts for you, Patti, because I know you have a genuine love for the girl that Arias once was.
What has been the hardest thing for you during this trial? For instance, the hardest testimony that you`ve heard?
PATTI: I definitely would have to say that hearing Jodi admit to -- admit to killing Travis was definitely the hardest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMUELS: The approach that I took was to spend several interview sessions, develop rapport. I think I may have mentioned this the last time.
MARTINEZ: And you actually provided the defendant with a gift.
SAMUELS: No.
MARTINEZ: Well, sir, do you remember providing her with a book called "Erroneous Zones"?
SAMUELS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And that was something that you provided to her, right?
SAMUELS: It was mailed to her, yes.
MARTINEZ: Which means you provided it to her, correct?
SAMUELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever give Jodi any magazines or books?
LAVIOLETTE: I did. I ordered a subscription to a magazine called "Ode (ph)" for Ms. Arias, and I also sent four books for Ms. Arias to read.
MARTINEZ: There seems to be a little bit of the blurring of the lines here, don`t you agree?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You looked at Jodi, gave a half smile and shrugged your shoulders. Why do you keep doing this?"
LAVIOLETTE: Well, I didn`t even know I was doing it. Truthfully, I do shrug my shoulders. I do. But I don`t even remember doing that. I mean, I don`t even know what to say to that question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In just a few hours of rebuttal witnesses, Juan Martinez has managed to shred 38 days of defense testimony.
Tonight, with us, Jodi Arias`s best friend since childhood with exclusive photos for you to see and judge yourself.
But right now, I`m hearing in my ear, let`s go straight back in the courtroom.
DEMARTE: There`s been a lot of researchers, not just Lenore Walker -- there`s a lot of researchers that have focused on battered women`s syndrome, and fortunate for people like me, who`s a clinician, I`m able -- they put together some diagnostic criteria that helps us indicate whether someone does have battered women`s syndrome or not.
MARTINEZ: And having this experience, having the schooling that you have, were you able to form an opinion whether or not there was abuse in the relationship between the defendant and Travis Alexander?
DEMARTE: I was able to form an opinion.
MARTINEZ: And what is that opinion?
DEMARTE: My opinion is, is that there did not appear to be significant abuse in the relationship.
MARTINEZ: When you say there doesn`t appear and significant, those are terms that are a little bit tepid. When you say it does not appear, what are you saying?
DEMARTE: Sure. Ms. Arias indicated to me there were four distinct episodes of physical domestic violence. This reporting of domestic violence has changed over time frequently. I can`t go back...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection (INAUDIBLE) Ms. Arias`s testimony and previous testimony of other witnesses in the case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled. You will have an opportunity to cross-examine. You may continue.
MARTINEZ: Go ahead.
DEMARTE: There`s inconsistency in the reporting in that she at the beginning indicated that there was two physically domestic violent episodes. With a few evaluators, including myself, she...
GRACE: On the stand right now is state`s rebuttal witness number one. Her name is Jeanine Demarte. And she has a kind of no nonsense demeanor I think this jury is going to appreciate.
MARTINEZ: And with regard to this particular circumstance, do you place any weight whatsoever on the fact that -- well, did you see any medical reports associated with this alleged abuse?
DEMARTE: No.
MARTINEZ: Did you see any police reports associated with this alleged abuse?
DEMARTE: No.
MARTINEZ: Did you see anything in writing from anybody anecdotally that indicated that she`d ever told anybody about this abuse here in Arizona, anybody?
DEMARTE: Did I see it in writing?
MARTINEZ: Yes.
DEMARTE: No.
MARTINEZ: In light of that, is that part of what formed your opinion here that you do not believe that there was any abuse going on in this particular relationship?
DEMARTE: That contributed to my opinion.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: At some point, you do remember that you had the knife in your hand, correct?
JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I don`t remember that part.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no evidence that signing autographs and posing for photographs...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want you to sign my cane.
MARTINEZ: Really?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... under these very limited circumstances could affect the jury`s verdict since there were no jurors present.
MARTINEZ: "Travis, you`re beautiful on the inside and out." Did you mean that?
ARIAS: Yes.
But before (INAUDIBLE) can I clean myself up a little bit?
MARTINEZ: Did Travis tell you that you were beautiful on the inside and out, as well? Is that what you`re saying there?
ARIAS: Yes, he said I was more beautiful on the inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Martinez on a roll. His rebuttal case has started at the moment the defense rested. We`re going to be right back with Jodi Arias`s best friend, but right now, we`ve got to go back in that courtroom.
MARTINEZ: And what about this battered woman`s syndrome? Is that something that you looked at to see whether or not the defendant met that definition of battered woman syndrome?
DEMARTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And how does that differ from being in an abusive relationship, or is it the same thing?
DEMARTE: No, not everybody who is in an abusive relationship develops battered women`s syndrome.
MARTINEZ: And so what is battered women`s syndrome, then?
DEMARTE: As I highlighted earlier, research has developed this criteria, albeit it`s not criteria that`s in the DSM, but it`s still criteria. It gives us something to look at to see if she is consistent with that. There`s six different criteria that is highlighted in the literature.
MARTINEZ: And...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection, foundation (INAUDIBLE) literature.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
MARTINEZ: What are you talking about when you say that there`s in the literature? Whose literature are you talking about?
DEMARTE: Lenore Walker`s.
MARTINEZ: And with regard to that, why is it that based on what Lenore Walker laid out, you do not believe that the defendant meets the criteria for battered woman syndrome? Tell me why.
DEMARTE: The first three criteria of battered women`s syndrome we`ve already talked about in here. It`s actually the same criteria that`s seen in post-traumatic stress disorder. I highlighted earlier the tendency to re-experience, the tendency to avoid, and the tendency to have an increased arousal. Those are three of the six criteria.
MARTINEZ: And did she have those?
DEMARTE: No.
MARTINEZ: What about the other three?
DEMARTE: The fourth one is having impaired social relationships as a result of the batterer`s tendency to have power and control. What this looks like is that the victim is restricted from having any kind of relationships with other people, from engaging in social activities. Money is held from them. Their interpersonal relationships are really impaired because the batterer is controlling their movements.
MARTINEZ: And does this continue...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He tells her, It sounds like you`re this 12- year-old girl having her first orgasm.
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did you hear him say, It`s so hot?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, in this case, you actually are biased in favor of the defendant, aren`t you.
LAVIOLETTE: The evidence that supports domestic violence, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi`s word that she caught him masturbating to pictures of a little boy.
LAVIOLETTE: I thought that was collaborative (ph) data.
MARTINEZ: Travis Alexander was found masturbating to images of children.
LAVIOLETTE: I believe it.
MARTINEZ: Believe it even though there`s no report about it, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. We are live and camped outside the Phoenix courthouse. We`re about to take you straight back in for more testimony. Because of the time difference and various delays, there is still testimony.
Very quickly, I want to go back to Jodi Arias` best friend since childhood, who is giving us an intimate look of Arias` childhood and growing up. With me tonight, Patti. Patti, there is one photo of you and two others on a bus with Arias. What is that photo?
PATTI: That picture is a picture of all of us girls together. We had -- there were three of us best friends, and we had rode the bus to the mall from (inaudible) to Santa Maria (ph). And it was the first time that we had all rode this bus, so we made, like, a dozen wrong turns. So it took us instead of an hour to get to one spot, it took us like four hours just to get to the mall. And it was just a really good time. It was fun.
GRACE: So you took a bus to take that photo?
PATTI: Yes.
GRACE: OK. And which one of the photos do you believe best represents Jodi Arias as you knew her?
PATTI: I would say the one that her hands are stretched out and she has the purple sweatshirt on. That was taken, I believe, it was like in seventh or eighth grade. We had just got to school. It was first period English, and she was running up to me, and she had this big smile on, this big smile, and I had just snapped the camera, and that`s just how I remember her, and that`s just how we all remember Jodi, just with a big smile on her face.
GRACE: Everyone, with us is Patti. And this is a photo of Jodi Arias and other photos exclusive that we have obtained, showing a look at Arias unlike anything we`ve seen at all. And it begs the question to you, Caryn Stark, as we continue to go through these photos, how you morph from this girl into a cold-blooded killer, Caryn?
STARK: Well, there was something wrong with her to begin with, Nancy. I`m sure that she was a good friend to this Patti, and I don`t want to say that she wasn`t, but there were signs, whether she was hitting her mother - - if you take a look even at her IQ score, she scores very high. I hope it`s OK to talk about this in the verbal, and the verbal high and the rest not, shows that there`s some kind of inconsistency. There`s an emotional - - that`s how we look at it. There`s some kind of emotional problem that`s underlying that we need to investigate, something is wrong. And I suspect that was there from the time she was young.
GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact, Alexis Tereszcuk, Radaronline.com, the rebuttal witness, the expert says that her mentality, although she ranks very high, actually, quote, superior, on her IQ test, her mentality is that of a high school girl. Her emotional development is stunted.
TERESZCUK: You`re exactly right, and, in fact, the witness gave quite a few examples of this. And the one that is probably the most recent is where she talked about her mug shot, where Jodi puts on -- asks for makeup and then smiles and poses in a really snarky way. She says this is a sign of immaturity, and she says Jodi is not what she pretends to be at all. She really presented this so thoughtfully and very detailed and calmly and just gave specific examples.
GRACE: Actually, she looks very happy and pretty in these photos. And, Jason Oshins, you`re a defense attorney, I don`t know what happened but the defense never portrayed any other side of Jodi Arias but the side that is a manipulative killer.
OSHINS: Nancy, you know, you talked earlier about the Mr. Martinez eviscerating 38 days of testimony. Certainly from looking now at Patti`s picture and commentary and Dr. Stark`s, something went wrong. Whether it was in the past, as Dr. Stark alluded to or maybe more in the present in her relationship with Mr. Alexander. Something is off, whether she was battered, and to what extent and whether you buy into the theories. Something happened to cause this heinous crime. Certainly she says it`s self-defense. But we`re getting an inkling there`s something more behind this, Nancy.
GRACE: Also, taking your calls, everyone, Arias` childhood friend giving us an intimate, an inside look at Arias, the person before she became the killer. Right now back into the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And does this continue, for example, after, for example, the person is deceased or not, this impairment, or not?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see any evidence of this impairment as it applies to the defendant?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Specifically you talked about the money situation. Do you know whether or not Mr. Alexander controlled the money in the relationship with the defendant?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did not control their money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about her relationship with other people? Did he, for example, stop her from speaking with whoever she wanted to? Is there any indication of that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, and I specifically asked her that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did she say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the last factor, you`ve talked about factors four and five. Now No. 6?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So we see that there is a sense of medical problems. Really what you see in women who have battered women`s syndrome they tend to, one, feel very poorly about their body and, two, they tend to have a lot of medical complaints.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And with regard to the defendant, did she have a lot of medical complaints?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I specifically went over her medical history with her, and no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about feeling poorly about her body? Does she feel poorly about her body?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. What you typically see with these women is they have a global dislike for their body in general. It`s not just I don`t like this aspect of my body, I don`t like this, small things, it`s everything. They tend to not like themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So is the defendant, after this evaluation, in your opinion, a battered, a person who was a woman in a battered -- being battered in a relationship?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you ask that again?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, battered woman syndrome, is she somebody who exhibited indications that she was involved in this kind of syndrome?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t have any other questions, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cross-examination.
GRACE: Very quickly, out to you, Beth Karas. It seems to me Martinez tore apart the defense in just a couple of hours.
KARAS: Well, she -- DeMarte was certainly a very good witness for the state because she described all of the tests that she administered, she interpreted the tests, and she explained why she disagreed with Dr. Samuels, why his test results were wrong, and why he violated protocol in the way he administered some of the tests, and why she wouldn`t have administered one of the tests he did. She was able to, if you believe the state and you believe her, eviscerate what he had to say about PTSD, that she did not suffer from PTSD and have a four to five-hour memory loss as a result of the traumatic event of killing Travis.
GRACE: Everyone, now you see Wilma (ph) about to start her cross-exam of this witness. I just don`t believe she can shake her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that a yes? OK. Great. Let`s talk about that for a little bit. You received your Ph.D. in August of 2009, is that right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so that`s your doctorate?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you get your Ph.D., you`re not allowed to practice as a doctor yet, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m allowed to practice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a doctor?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a doctor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you can call yourself a doctor?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so the state board licensing agency would not care about that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Being called a doctor? Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, practicing as a doctor, as a psychologist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Psychologist and doctor are different.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So which one are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m a psychologist now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Aren`t you also a doctor?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But not a physician?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. So let me get this straight then. When you graduate with your doctorate degree, OK, so that`s in August of 2009, you are allowed to practice as a psychologist?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Under a psychologist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Under a psychologist? I thought you said as a psychologist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m allowed to practice under a psychologist`s license. You aren`t able to call yourself a psychologist until you complete the licensing exam.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. That was my question. So in August of 2009, you were not a psychologist yet?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because you just had your doctorate?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I had my doctorate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. But you say you weren`t allowed to practice as a psychologist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Asked and answered.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: Whenever he got mad, it was like being in an earthquake, like it starts and you don`t know how long it`s going to last or how bad it`s going to get. He would, like, get angrier and start maybe that he would continue to swear at me in text messages. "You stressing me out on a daily basis is getting really freaking old. You cry over everything and dump countless bull crap on me."
It was just I felt bullied, like it was just miserable. If he knew what I knew about you, he`d spit in your face. So would everyone else. He wanted me to text it, but I didn`t want to talk with about his issues in the text messages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live and taking your calls. In addition to testimony ongoing with us is Jodi Arias friend since childhood, Patti, who is showing us photos that show Arias in a completely different light, before she became a killer.
Patti, what do you believe is the biggest misconception about Jodi Arias?
PATTI: I would say that her being promiscuous. Jodi definitely wasn`t. She was not the type to go around and sleep around with everybody. She definitely -- those were not her standards. She had higher standards than that.
GRACE: You know, I find it very interesting that that would be the message relayed tonight. When facing murder one charges, I`m not really concerned about who she ever slept with are or didn`t sleep with. I really couldn`t care less about that. I`m really much more focused on her bent toward manipulating others, lying, deception, and stalking, a pattern of stalking men that broke up with her, cheated on her, and their new objects of desire. I find that to be relevant, Patti, to the murder of Travis Alexander.
But I`m looking at all these photos that you have brought to us so graciously, and it seems like an altogether different person, although we know her parents say she began manipulating them in childhood, when she was growing pot in the house was the first time they really had to confront it.
Unleash the lawyers. Bill Sheaffer, Jeff Gold, Jason Oshins. Jeff Gold, watching the courtroom, it seems as if this one witness, Janeen DeMarte, has completely torn apart 38 days of testimony by the defense.
GOLD: Well, she did good on direct, Nancy, but everybody does good in their own playground. That`s direct examination. And now there`s cross. And I think she checked off those boxes. It`s not post traumatic stress. It`s not dissociative amnesia, and she explained borderline personality. But now why Juan has ceded the territory and put on a witness with this little experience, I really don`t know, and she talked for 15 or 20 minutes. It seemed to me, in the courtroom, about domestic violence. I`m not sure why he`s ceding that ground. I wish --
GRACE: Jean Casarez --
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: I think the defense is going to have something to say.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, weigh in.
CASAREZ: You know, I think it`s really important. I think we need to bring out that Dr. DeMarte diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. Dr. Samuels did not. She said that in her journals, Jodi`s, from 1995 on, she continually referred to suicide and losing -- and taking her own life. And then also that she had immense anger inside of her as documented in e-mail that she wrote to Travis on Valentine`s Day, 2007.
GRACE: Immense anger. Out to the lines.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
CALLER: I wanted to say I love you and your kids.
GRACE: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.
CALLER: I`ve been trying to call you forever. You know, I had a question, but I`m really saddened now. I listened to Jodi`s friend, and I watched the other night when Goldman`s sister was on and you going through what you went through with your fiance. I used to watch you on Court TV all the time. And I`m more sad now. I don`t even have a question. I don`t even know what to say. I just -- I feel bad for all the victims involved.
GRACE: I know what you mean.
CALLER: That he had to go through this. I mean, I have borderline personality disorder and I have PTSD.
GRACE: But the reality is, Chris, you are so right. Caryn Stark, Chris in North Carolina is exactly what they`re talking about. That is not insanity. That`s not going to help her.
STARK: No. Borderline personality is not something that`s easy to live with, but it has nothing to do with being a criminal and killing somebody. One has nothing to do with the other.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Typically, it takes about a year to get your license, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, typically you have to do 1,500 hours of work, don`t you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not postdoctorally, in Arizona, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. But you did, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I chose to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So that was just your choice to do?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rather than get your license when you could have, you just waited for a year.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t just wait.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you didn`t get it in 2009, though, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did that on purpose.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s what I`m asking, you did it on --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, argumentative.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So in 2009, when you had your doctorate, you chose to wait to get your license for a year. Right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To continue in clinical practice under the license of someone else.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. So you chose to wait for a year to get your license.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And when -- let`s talk about that. So did you not go through the whole 1,500 hours? Is that not something Arizona requires you to do?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can get that predoctorally, before you finish, and I met the criteria. I could have received my license then. They have changed the law in Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. When did they change the law?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe it was right before. I don`t know the exact time. I don`t want to mischaracterize.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. So you`re saying that you had the 1500 hours before your doctorate degree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had enough to become licensed, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So then, but nevertheless--
GRACE: Sounds to me like defense attorney Wilmont (ph) has the old law.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when you`re working for those places, you`re called a fellow, aren`t you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m called Dr. DeMarte.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Let`s just look at your CV for a second. Can you pull that out for me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I have it right here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the second page and on the first page, you call yourself clinical psychology fellow, don`t you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you`re working for these places.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. What does that mean, fellow?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fellowship.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you`re doing a fellowship.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s also referred to as a post-doc.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So is that what you were doing during the year that you waited to get your license?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. So let`s start with, let`s start with September of 2009. So let`s go.
GRACE: It seems as if Wilmont (ph) is trying to catch or break down this witness, but it seems the tables have turned and Wilmont doesn`t know the criteria to become a practicing psychologist in Arizona.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Marine Sergeant Wade Wilson. 22, Leona, Texas. Purple Heart, Silver Star, mother Cindy, stepfather Ward, brothers Chad, Alex, Curtis. Sister Lane (ph). Wade Wilson, American hero.
And now straight back into the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From September of 2009 to January -- or I`m sorry, to October of 2009, you worked at Psychological Assessment Associates of Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you just did that for a month.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct. Well, September and October.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, so a full two months. Is that a yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I know on your CV, you don`t actually put the dates, so I mean, you have September of 2009, but not September 1st. Do you know if it`s September 1st.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know the exact date.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So do you know for sure it was two months versus one month?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Roughly two months, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And you worked there, looks like you conducted clinical interviews.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Evaluations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, clinical interviews and administered a variety of assessment tools, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s what you wrote in your CV.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What kind of tools did you use?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Intellectual and memory.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Specifically, which ones?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ways (ph). The whims (ph). The bender (ph). And trails (ph). Those are all cognitive tests.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Anything else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At this specific place?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it looks like you were working with people who were applying for some type of impairments, right, claimants? What kind of people were you working with there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A broad range of individuals who were applying for Social Security disability.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So when you`re talking about in your CV, you talk about claimants, you talk about people who were applying for disability with their Social Security?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. That`s the verbiage they use.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s the verbiage they use to describe it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And so you were there for about two months. Why did you leave?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I decided to leave because I wanted more forensic experience.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which I was already participating in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And this particular place is not in business any more, is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As far as I know, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Under the same name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, not as far as I know, it is.
GRACE: Testimony now winding down for the day. As we say good night, good luck to one of our superstars, Drew Iden (ph), off to a brand new chapter in his life. Drew, walk slow and hurry back, friend. Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
