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Nancy Grace
Travis`s Ex-Girlfriend on the Stand
Aired April 23, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody`s just playing it like Travis is the sexual deviant.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi was Travis`s dirty little secret.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: He wasn`t too affectionate at Sizzler, but he was very affectionate inside the hotel room while we were (INAUDIBLE) We stayed in the bedroom a lot. But when we hung out downstairs, if the roommates were there, we were just, like, friends.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How is it that they were between the two of them during this particular event? Were they distant? Were they together? How were they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Affectionate. Like a couple.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had a very provocative energy. And she used her looks and she used that energy especially with men in order to, you know, to seek favors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s wearing what? What is this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a robe from the Hyatt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that where you were staying?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did they continue to be affectionate towards each other such that you could see or the public could see?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Behind the smiles in these photographs, there was a whole `nother reality for Jodi.
ARIAS: He body-slammed me on the floor at the foot of his bed. He`s, like, Don`t act like it hurts (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and he kicked me in the ribs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s say that there was a disagreement. Was there ever an occasion when he would scream at you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there ever an occasion where he would curse at you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any occasion where he ever laid his hands on you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there a situation after you broke up with him that he was such a sexual monster that he kept coming over and grabbing you at you and pawing at you to have sex with him? Did that happen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he was always a gentleman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
After Jodi Arias slashes and shoots her lover, Travis Alexander, to death, leaving him dead in a wet shower stall, bombshell tonight. Travis Alexander`s ex-lover on the stand. At the same time, Jodi Arias begs -- begs -- the judge to give the jury the option of manslaughter, not murder.
Well, many of us do not believe that manslaughter is even consistent with a self-defense theory, but that`s a whole `nother can of worms.
Let`s go straight into the courtroom. On the stand, the ex-lover.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEANNA REID, FORMER GIRLFRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Several weeks after I had been home from my mission, we started talking again, and I would see him at church. So we began talking and being friends again.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: And as you began to talk and you became friends, did this become more than a friendship?
REID: It did. Yes, we began dating again.
MARTINEZ: And about when was that, if you returned in, what, the end of 2001, when would this be that you started to date again?
REID: In the beginning of 2002.
MARTINEZ: And when you began dating in 2002, was it a situation where he could date other people or just you, or were you guys exclusive, or did you talk about it?
REID: At that time, we were exclusive, when we started dating again in 2002.
MARTINEZ: And was this in southern California again?
REID: It was, yes.
MARTINEZ: And while you are continuing to date in southern California, did there come a time when there was a move from the southern California area?
REID: Yes, in 2004.
MARTINEZ: So it looks like from 2001 to 2004, you`re dating in southern California?
REID: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And during that time, you and he are dating exclusively, then, right?
REID: We are, from 2002 to 2004.
MARTINEZ: During that time, there would come a time when you and he had some, for example, any disagreements during that period of time?
REID: Sure. We had arguments or disagreements, just like any normal couple.
MARTINEZ: And during those disagreements, would he ever -- in any of those disagreements, would he ever curse at you?
REID: No, never.
MARTINEZ: Would he ever call you names?
REID: No, he did not.
MARTINEZ: And during any of those times, did he ever strike you or physically advance on you or inflict any physical violence on you?
REID: No, never.
MARTINEZ: So who broke off the relationship at the end of 2005?
REID: I did at the end of 2005. We had been dating for a while at that point, and I was ready for marriage. And at that time, he wasn`t. And because of that, I felt like I needed to move on with my life and that we would be better dating other people so that I could get to that point of getting married.
MARTINEZ: And I assume that you were the one that actually gave him the news.
REID: Yes. At his house one evening, we sat down. I told him we needed to talk about our relationship. And we talked about it, and I told him that this is what I wanted. And if he didn`t want to get married, then I was going to need to move on and we were both going to need to move on. We had dated for long enough.
And then at that point, he began to cry. And so did I. And we decided that we would remain friends.
MARTINEZ: And at that time when you were having this conversation and he`s emotional and you`ve described yourself as being emotional, at any point did he become physical, throwing you down, put his hands on you in any way, shape or form?
REID: Absolutely not.
MARTINEZ: Did he curse at you in any way?
REID: No, he did not.
MARTINEZ: And did he raise his voice in any way?
REID: No, he never raised his voice to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: On the stand right now, you`re seeing Travis Alexander`s ex- lover. And the description she gives of their relationship is very, very different from the one that Jodi Arias has painted for this jury.
Everybody, we are live and camped outside that Phoenix courthouse. And joining me, I`m hearing in my ear right now, Jean Casarez standing by. Also with us, Beth Karas, Matt Zarrell, all of us taking your calls live.
First to you, Jean Casarez. This witness painting a very different picture of Travis Alexander.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": And it`s so important, Nancy, because Travis Alexander, according to Deanna Reid, was kind and loving and respectful and foremostly honest. And the reason that`s so important is because the defense is trying to show that Jodi is a victim at the hands of Travis. Well, with Travis with these values and this personality, no one would be a victim. It would be a very normal relationship.
GRACE: And they were together for quite some time. And so the normal stresses of day-to-day life and ups and downs of a relationship never provoked Travis Alexander to unleash, right?
CASAREZ: Exactly right. And you know, Nancy, when we heard Deanna Reid had been called to the stand, there was a hush in that courtroom. We`ve heard about Deanna Reid. We know that she has Travis`s dog, Napoleon. And it was just really a quiet courtroom when she walked in.
GRACE: Out to Beth Karas, also joining us in front of the courthouse. Beth, were there any looks between Jodi Arias and Deanna Reid? Because you know Arias was eaten up with jealous with over this woman.
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": Oh, indeed. No, I did not see Deanna Reid look over at Jodi Arias, nor was she asked if she had ever met her or had any encounters with her. But Jodi, of course, was looking at Deanna. And in the beginning, she was staring at her. And I thought her face looked, you know, a little bit, you know, like a mean face, but it`s hard to tell. And then she would look down. And she was doodling, writing, drawing, whatever. She wasn`t looking at Deanna Reid for a lot of the testimony.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls. Out to Renee in Ohio. Hi, Renee. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I actually didn`t have a question. I had a comment.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know how this woman that got on the stand for so many days and said that she was a professional with battered women -- that`s so untrue because anyone that deals with battered women -- I was a battered woman for several years, and I was injured. You don`t see pictures of battered women smiling with the person that`s battering them, first of all. You don`t see that. That`s a lie.
And you do trust one person, whether it be a sister or whoever. You talk to them. You tell them what`s going on in your life. You do trust one person.
So what this woman was talking about, I have no idea. And that`s just so upsetting to know that somebody would defend somebody like this. And another thing...
GRACE: I know that you`re talking about Alyce LaViolette. And she before this trial had been very, very well respected. I don`t know if that is true any longer. It`s almost like she completely sold out in the Jodi Arias trial.
What were you saying, Renee?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also -- oh, where was I going with this? Just where did she get the courage? I would love to talk to this girl and ask her, like, Oh, if he was so bad to you, where did you get the courage to do what you did? Because when I was being battered, I was on the floor crying and scared to death. So how did you just pop up and stab this guy and shoot him because from my eyes, from what I`m seeing...
GRACE: You know what? Renee? Renee, don`t hang up. I want you to listen to this guest with me. Everybody, you`re not missing any testimony. We`re taking you straight back in. Jaslene Gonzalez is with us, domestic violence survivor, also the winner of "America`s Next Top Model" season 8. And believe it or not, she is a survivor of domestic violence.
Jaslene, thank you for being with us. I know you`re hearing Renee in Ohio. I`d like to hear your comments, your response.
JASLENE GONZALEZ, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SURVIVOR: She`s very true, actually. I remember from my experience, my heart was just in so much pain. I was very, very sad. And my spirits were very, very low. So to have the courage that she had to actually kill someone, where did it come from? Because I surrendered myself at all times. When he was angry, when he had explosive tempers and got abusive, I just -- I couldn`t do anything about it. I was just running scared.
GRACE: With us is Jaslene Gonzalez from "America`s Top Model -- Next Top Model." But right now, as much as I`d like to continue with you, Jaslene and Renee, we`ve got to go back in the courtroom. On the stand, Travis Alexander`s ex-lover.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you and Mr. Alexander have a sexual relationship?
REID: Yes, we did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And when did that sexual relationship begin?
REID: Well, we had been dating for a long time and we were in love. And so that is something that happened. That`s what happens when people are in love. And I don`t -- I don`t know exactly when it was, but it was well into our relationship after we had moved to Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Well into your relationship after you moved to Arizona. And this isn`t a question to judge. This isn`t what we`re talking about here, OK? But you would agree with me that as it relates to this sexual relationship -- and you`ve been a lifelong member of your church -- that that would have been inconsistent with the dictates of the teachings of your church, is that correct?
REID: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And because of that inconsistency, was the fact that you were having this relationship, was that something you kept between the two of you?
REID: That was our private business. We didn`t tell people about it.
MARTINEZ: Right. I understand. And again, not here to judge, I`m just asking. In terms of ramifications within your church, did you or Mr. Alexander face any ramifications in your church related to this activity?
REID: No. People are just human. People within the church are human. And we make -- we make mistakes, and we do things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry, I don`t see it that way.
ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE EXPERT: Have you seen "When Harry Met Sally?"
MARTINEZ: I`m not asking you about that, ma`am. Show me the linebacker pose. That`s what I`m asking for you to do.
ARIAS: OK. He went like that.
MARTINEZ: Right, you wouldn`t see that that way because you have feelings for the defendant, right?
RICHARD SAMUELS, PSYCHOLOGIST: I beg your pardon, sir!
MARTINEZ: Can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest? That really must have hurt, right?
LAVIOLETTE: I can`t tell whether she`s having an orgasm or not.
MARTINEZ: You can`t even remember what you just said.
ARIAS: I think I`m more focused on your posture and your tone and your anger.
I just said no.
MARTINEZ: And that`s when you shot him in the face, right?
ARIAS: Yes, that`s when the gun went off.
MARTINEZ: I want to know whether or not it was in a holster or not.
ARIAS: I can`t tell you that.
LAVIOLETTE: My expertise is in domestic violence, not in orgasms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live and camped outside that Phoenix courthouse, bringing you the very latest in the Jodi Arias murder one trial.
Today, a sharp turn for the defense as they beg the judge -- Jodi Arias begs the judge to let the jury consider manslaughter as an alternative to murder one. That is a major development.
We`re going to take you straight back into the courtroom. Unleash the lawyers. Bill Sheaffer, WFTV, Orlando, Ashleigh Merchant, defense attorney, Atlanta, Randy Kessler, defense attorney, Atlanta.
Bill Sheaffer, what about it?
BILL SHEAFFER, WFTV LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you`re absolutely right. We had to have a rebuttal in this case. And I`m going to tell you something else, Nancy. If I were the judge -- it certainly, it`s at the discretion of the judge to allow surrebuttal, but under the rules...
GRACE: Whoa! Talk about manslaughter.
SHEAFFER: ... of Arizona criminal procedure...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!
SHEAFFER: Oh, About manslaughter?
GRACE: Yes.
SHEAFFER: No, no. OK. Nancy, she`s got to give that instruction. You and I both know...
GRACE: Yes, I know she`s got to get it.
SHEAFFER: ... that the most fertile grounds -- OK. Then what`s your question?
GRACE: It`s a far cry from what they stood up and told the jury in opening statements. They told the jury, I acted in self-defense. Voluntary manslaughter, manslaughter, is when you act in a heat of passion, like an argument. The textbook seminal example we`re told in law school, husband comes home, finds wife in bed with another man, goes crazy and shoots the whole kit and kaboodle. That is typically a voluntary manslaughter, heat of passion killing, right?
SHEAFFER: Right. But the defense in this case can argue with a straight face to the jury, Hey, if you don`t buy the self-defense, then if she`s guilty of something, she`s guilty of manslaughter. They`ve got to do it.
GRACE: OK, what about it, Randy?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think absolutely. Anything that can keep you from getting the death penalty, if it gives the jury another option, they`ve got to take it. We`ve all seen cases where there was one charge, and the jury said, We`re not going to charge them with that. We`re giving the jury an option. The state should be grateful.
GRACE: Wait a minute. I get it. But justice -- out to you, Ashleigh Merchant -- it`s not like a box of chocolates where you just pick the one that you think might taste the best. No, this is supposed to be a search for the truth. So how can they, in opening statements, say, Yes, he attacked me, I thought he was going to kill me, it was awful, oh, dear lord in heaven. Oh, yes. I got mad and killed him. He was all screamy, and yes, I killed him. That is not consistent, Ashleigh!
ASHLEIGH MERCHANT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what is the harm, though, Nancy in actually letting this...
GRACE: It`s a lie.
MERCHANT: ... jury consider this charge? Because if they believe what the state has proven, then they`ll find her guilty of first degree. And if they don`t, then there`s no harm in having this charge.
GRACE: Everybody, we are about to go straight back into the courtroom. Let`s go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever use phrases with you that you`re the ultimate slut in bed?
REID: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did he talk to you about (EXPLETIVE DELETED) every time?
REID: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on your face?
REID: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever call you a whore?
REID: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A slut?
REID: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A three-hole wonder?
REID: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever tell you how he wanted to tie you to a tree and, quote, (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
REID: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You must have had a different relationship than he did with Ms. Arias, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, lack of foundation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever tell you that the way you moan, is like a 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Everyone, we are going straight back into the courtroom for more testimony. On the stand, Travis Alexander`s ex-lover.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: The issue about this -- sexual activities that you may or may not have had with Mr. Alexander -- was your relationship based on sex mostly?
REID: No, it was not.
MARTINEZ: And when you went to the bishop, did you lie to him about the activities that you had engaged in?
REID: No. I told him everything.
MARTINEZ: Did you minimize, for example, say, You know, in your mind, we`re having sexual intercourse, but I only told him that I was having oral sex. Did you do that?
REID: No.
MARTINEZ: Well, if you did that, would there be any reason to go to them, if you weren`t going to be truthful about it?
REID: No.
MARTINEZ: And with regard to these issues about whether or not he called you names or that sort of thing, do you know, if he did use that language with regard to somebody else, do you know what the other person`s participation may have been?
REID: No, I don`t.
MARTINEZ: Do you know anything about his sexual activities and whether or not the defendant was participating in these sexual activities with him?
REID: I don`t know.
MARTINEZ: With regard to your sexual activities, was it something that you and he would go about talking to people about?
REID: No.
MARTINEZ: How about any sexual aspects that he had with the defendant? Did he discuss those with you?
REID: No.
MARTINEZ: We`re done with this, and you`ve broken up. Was it a situation that he kept coming back and asking you for sex?
REID: No.
MARTINEZ: Did you guys continue to have sex after you broke up?
REID: No.
MARTINEZ: So is it something that you obviously could control, then, right?
REID: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And was it a situation after you broke up with him that he was such a sexual monster that he kept coming over and grabbing at you and pawing at you to have sex with him? Did that happen?
REID: No. He was always a gentleman. He never pressured me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, unresponsive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
MARTINEZ: Was he a gentleman after this happened?
REID: Yes, he was.
MARTINEZ: And if you told -- did he even ask to have sex with you after you broke up with him?
REID: He did not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Identity disturbance, her tendency to change herself to fit into different environments.
ARIAS: About the time that I met him, he was not practicing Wicca, but he was studying it.
GRACE: Witchcraft? What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had witchcraft listed on her MySpace.
ARIAS: Our relationship took a lot of different spiritual turns and twists. We began taking meditation seminars, kind of New Age type seminars, but they had their roots in Hinduism or Buddhism.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was that a big part of your relationship with Matt?
ARIAS: Yes, it was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told me he was dabbling in Mormonism. So I asked her bluntly, Well, who`s the other guy?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She very quickly changed her religious views and intensely became involved with the Mormon church.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live and bringing you the very latest out of the Jodi Arias murder one trial. Today, a bombshell in court. We learned the defense is begging, begging the judge to reverse course and let the jury choose voluntary manslaughter over murder one.
We are taking your calls. We`re about to go back into the courtroom. On the stand is going to be a longtime friend of Travis Alexander, Jacob Mefford. Right now, out to the lines, Nick in Kansas. Hi, Nick, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, thank you for having me. My question I guess is about the relevance of this apparent discovery of usage of Youtube at about 4:00 in the morning. What Nurmi closed with, with the detective. There`s no porn on Youtube, let alone child porn. So I don`t see the da, da, da moment in any of that.
GRACE: OK. Out to you, Jean Casarez, weigh in.
CASAREZ: You know, I saw on a lot of cross-examinations today things that seemed to be dramatic, but maybe didn`t mean too much at all. That Youtube video, we heard about it in court. It was just people dancing around and singing, and he was watching that when Jodi arrived, but there was nothing illicit on that at all.
GRACE: Everybody, we are going straight back into the courtroom. On the stand, Jacob Mefford.
MARTINEZ: Sir, who is this individual to the upper left-hand corner that seems to be doing most of the talking?
MEFFORD: Travis Alexander.
MARTINEZ: And there appears to be something blondish or white on his lab. Who is that?
MEFFORD: Jodi Arias.
MARTINEZ: And this individual here to the right, do you see who that is?
MEFFORD: Right next to Jodi?
MARTINEZ: Right.
MEFFORD: Dan Freeman (ph).
MARTINEZ: And to his left, the individual in the white shirt?
MEFFORD: Christopher Hughes.
MARTINEZ: And the person that is sitting there with the black shirt, who is that?
MEFFORD: Charlie Effington (ph).
MARTINEZ: Do you know about what time this video was shot?
MEFFORD: Somewhere between probably 11:00 p.m. and midnight.
MARTINEZ: And this is after the meetings?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: At some point in this video, what does the defendant do? Do you know whether or not she keeps her head down there or not?
MEFFORD: No. Eventually she looks like she gets bored and she lifts his arm off of her and sits up.
MARTINEZ: And how long is this video, approximately?
MEFFORD: Five minutes.
MARTINEZ: And after this video was shot, what happened?
GRACE: OK. Do you see Jodi Arias`s eyes as she`s looking at this? Crazy eyes.
MARTINEZ: -- they leave together, or did they leave separately?
MEFFORD: I`m not completely sure.
MARTINEZ: Now, did you also have occasion to be with them or continue knowing the two of them after March of 2007?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And did you specifically have occasion to be with the both of them in June of 2007?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: What was the occasion for that?
MEFFORD: It was an incentive trip hosted by Prepaid Legal for top leaders, and we were in Huntington Beach, California.
MARTINEZ: And do you know whether or not Mr. Alexander was there?
MEFFORD: Yes, he was.
MARTINEZ: And was the defendant there also?
MEFFORD: Yes, she was.
MARTINEZ: And did you have occasion to have some interaction with them during this particular event?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: How is it that they were between the two of them during this particular event? Were they distant? Were they together? How were they?
MEFFORD: Affectionate, like a couple.
MARTINEZ: Exhibit 633. And she`s wearing what? What is this?
MEFFORD: That`s a robe from the Hyatt.
MARTINEZ: Is that where you were staying?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And who is this individual here?
MEFFORD: Travis Alexander.
MARTINEZ: About what time of the day was this taken?
MEFFORD: Approximately 9:00, 10:00 at night.
MARTINEZ: And was this after any activities involving PPL or not?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And the activities ended about what time?
MEFFORD: About the time when the sun goes down. So whatever time that was in June. So probably around, I`d say, 8:00ish. Something like that.
MARTINEZ: And after this photograph was taken, were there any days left in this vacation that was involved?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And did they continue to be affectionate towards each other such that you could see or the public could see?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: I don`t have any other questions.
GRACE: OK. Before we go back in for any cross-examination on that, this is a guy that has visited with us on our show and taken your calls many, many times. And he told us a lot that the jury will never hear. I want you to take a listen to what he had to say when he was visiting our show.
Jean, do you recall he talked about Jodi Arias being involved in witchcraft and Wicca?
CASAREZ: Yes, yes. And he said much more. And I`m sure you have that for everybody. And look at that hotel room that -- the video we just saw. What clean-cut people in that hotel room, right? All the friends of Travis and Travis himself. You don`t see him drinking and smoking. Just really clean-cut and nice young men.
GRACE: Yes. You know what? You`re right, Jean. And you`re right on another count, too. Take a listen to what this witness told us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEFFORD: My wife had -- was friends with Travis and was kind of searching through some comments and saw a comment by Jodi and immediately pulled up her profile on Myspace and was completely creeped out by what she saw. There was a lot of, like, witchcraft things and just really creepy stuff.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Whoa. Didn`t know this. You`re going to have to run that by me again. Witchcraft. What? Is this when she was already dating Travis?
MEFFORD: Yes. I didn`t know at the time that she had. They had just met in Vegas maybe a month or a couple weeks before, but she had witchcraft listed on her Myspace. She had a bunch of different, you know, freaky things on her Myspace page. And my wife immediately--
GRACE: What other freaky things? Just curious.
MEFFORD: Well, for one, her profile picture was that one where she`s holding, you know, like a jack-o`-lantern or a candle under her face and she`s, like, illuminated all spooky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Oh, how I wish I could question this guy in front of the jury. Caryn Stark, this jury has no idea about all the evidence they`re never going to hear.
STARK: They have no idea. And I think that it would really be prejudicial if they did, Nancy, because she adapts to every single situation that she`s in. So if she`s -- I`m suspecting around someone who`s into witchcraft, she`s into witchcraft. If it`s Mormonism, then that`s what she`s doing. I think it`s also very telling that she has his head on his lap, her head, because it shows how close she feels and comfortable with him.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Bill Sheaffer, Ashley Merchant, Randy Kessler. All right, Ashley Merchant, what kind of backflip would you do in court if they suddenly started asking this guy about Jodi Arias`s involvement in witchcraft? I mean, come on, it`s true.
MERCHANT: I would be throwing myself in front of the judge to try and keep that from the jury. Jumping up and down, doing whatever I could to try and keep that, because it is extremely damaging.
GRACE: On the other hand, though, Bill Sheaffer, doesn`t it irk you a little bit, the fact that we know more than the jury knows from this witness?
SHEAFFER: Well, the problem is, is that the prejudice outweighs the probative value. You do not want to try this case again. And that`s why you`re going to give the manslaughter instruction, and that`s why you are not going to let this evidence in.
GRACE: OK, you just scared me straight and sober on that one, because we do not want to retry this. So, Randy Kessler, we`re just going to have to live with the fact that we know Arias was involved in witchcraft. But the jury will never know. Yes?
KESSLER: Nancy, you`ve known that for years. Back in O.J. Simpson, the N word that came up 44 times. The jury didn`t know it was said 44 times by Mark Fuhrman. The TV audience will always know more. That`s the difference between looking at it from a jury box and from a TV screen.
GRACE: And out to you, Jean Casarez, did you see Jodi Arias get the crazy eyes when she started watching this video for laying in Travis Alexander`s lap? I wonder if the jury saw that.
CASAREZ: I don`t know. They`ve got a clear view. But you know, Nancy, when Jodi Arias testified, she said that she dabbled in Wicca. She testified to that, because she was trying to find an identity, trying to find a religion. She said it on the stand.
GRACE: You know what, Jean, I appreciate that. We all had to, quote, find ourselves. But I don`t believe I ever once invited the devil to tea, because I was pretty convinced if I did, he might stay overnight. So what about it, Beth Karas? I don`t recall her mentioning Wicca. But you know what? I think Jean is right.
KARAS: Yes, indeed. I just want to mention that this video that Jacob brought, which we have seen before, was played on mute today. And I`ll tell you why. Because the story Travis Alexander is telling in that video is about being held up at gunpoint earlier in his life, and how frightening it was, and how his life passed in front of his eyes, just a little bit too close for what ultimately happened to him by the woman whose head was in his lap.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Boyfriend and girlfriend. Did you ever see any indication that he had, for example, photographs of little boys?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
ARIAS: I walked in, and Travis was on the bed masturbating with a picture of a little boy. They were boys underwear. They were Spider-Man underwear.
MARTINEZ: Did you ever on any occasion see anything or any photographs of little girls that he had?
ARIAS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you believe him to have an interest in young girls?
ARIAS: I already knew he was interested in young girls, but they were, like, sexually mature girls, but minors.
MARTINEZ: Would he ever curse at you?
ARIAS: No, never.
MARTINEZ: Would he ever call you names?
(CROSSTALK)
ARIAS: When I told Travis, he flipped out on me. He said [EXPLETIVE DELETED].
MARTINEZ: Did he ever strike you or physically advance on you or inflict any physical violence on you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, never.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
That was a major witness today. Travis Alexander`s ex-lover. And right now on the stand, his friend, Jacob Mefford.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right?
MEFFORD: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you also said to me when we spoke the other day that you knew there was a time when the relationship went underground, I think was your words, correct?
MEFFORD: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And did you have any knowledge of the fact that Travis and Jodi were having a sexual relationship in 2008?
MEFFORD: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Redirect.
MARTINEZ: In terms of the sexual relationship, did you and Mr. Alexander have a relationship that you would kiss and tell?
MEFFORD: No.
MARTINEZ: Would you have a relationship with him that whatever sexual exploits you were involved in, that you would share those with him?
MEFFORD: No.
MARTINEZ: Was that the type of relationship that the two of you had?
MEFFORD: No.
MARTINEZ: You talked about seeing them together after this June 2007 photograph, which is this one. Where did you see them together?
MEFFORD: At other PPL legal functions.
MARTINEZ: And with regard to the Prepaid Legal functions that you saw them, were they speaking with each other? Would they talk to each other?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And were they around each other?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: Did they show any affection during those times?
MEFFORD: Yes.
MARTINEZ: I don`t have any other questions. Thank you.
GRACE: That is Jacob Mefford on the stand. Take a look at this video right here. You can`t hear what Travis is saying, but take a look at this. His friends are sitting around. They`re all together. And that`s Jodi Arias`s head in his lap. With all of these people, and he`s telling a story about when he was arm robbed. Out to you, Matt Zarell. What was the context under which this was brought into court?
ZARRELL: What happened was that Mefford introduced this video. It`s all about showing the affection that Arias and Travis, in public, were affectionate. Arias -- the defense is trying to say that Arias was the dirty little secret, but here you see in a group of a lot of friends, Arias is sitting in his lap, very comfortable, very affectionate with him.
GRACE: OK. On the stand, we`ve been listening to longtime friend Jacob Mefford. He has been on our show often and has been very candid and willing to take calls, as a matter of fact. I want you to hear what he said on our show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEFFORD: No. 1, when you look into Jodi`s eyes, it`s like you`re staring into empty spaces. It`s -- there`s no substance there. It`s almost like she doesn`t have a soul. And she`s always been that way.
And the other thing that -- she has a very provocative energy. Everybody`s displaying it like Travis is this sexual deviant. Well, she had a very provocative energy, and she used her looks, and she used that energy especially with men in order to -- you know, to seek favor in them. So for me, what I found, as soon as she walked through the door, I`ll just -- I`m think -- can you hear me?
GRACE: Yes, go ahead.
MEFFORD: Oh, OK. Sorry. Anyway, when she came through the door, that`s this energy that I caught, was I`m, like, this isn`t a bar. And I don`t know what this floozy is doing here, but this is a professional environment, and I can`t believe that she`s bringing this energy in there. And again, just that stare and the fact that she was overly nice, and she knew to -- you know, she was very mysterious. You didn`t really know Jodi. She would never tell you about herself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. We are live, camped outside the Phoenix courthouse and taking your calls. Out to you, Randy Kessler, if this is manslaughter, then why did she bring the gas can so she wouldn`t leave a trail at gas stations and turn her phone off so she couldn`t be traced?
KESSLER: Well, I would not say in court that this is what it is, but it`s not. It`s murder, but she`s trying to do the best she can to avoid the death penalty. So anything that lets a sympathetic jury not give her the death penalty is something the defense should be trying to prove.
GRACE: And I want to go back out to you, Jean Casarez. What do you think the jury`s reaction was? How are they responding?
CASAREZ: I saw a definite response when Deanna Reid was on the stand, and the cross examination was asking her of all these vulgarities, did Travis do them to you. There was a lady on the jury, and she was devastated to have Deanna Reid to have to undergo that questioning.
GRACE: With me is Jaslene Gonzalez, domestic violence survivor, winner of "America`s Next Top Model" season 8. Jaslene, you say there are three myths that you just wrote about in a recent article that you want to bust.
JASLENE GONZALEZ, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SURVIVOR: Yes. One of the myths are abusers are mentally ill. The fact is that abusing is actually a learned behavior, as unreasonable and erratic as it sounds. Also, domestic violence is all about anger control issues. Domestic violence has really little to do with anger. Anger is actually a tool that abusers use to get what they want. And also, domestic violence is -- one of the myths is domestic violence is a loss of control. Actually, any type of violence is a choice. And we all know that abusers have control. They don`t lose it.
GRACE: Everyone, with me is Jaslene Gonzales. Karyn Stark, agree or disagree?
STARK: I like a lot of what she had to say, Nancy. I`m not sure about the control. I think they haven`t learned how to control their anger, but certainly, there are a lot of myths about it, and I agree.
GRACE: So, Beth Karas, what`s the judge`s thinking? I assume she`s going to allow them to present voluntary manslaughter. Is she going to allow them to put up a surrebuttal case? And how many more witnesses for the state?
KARAS: Well, not sure how many more witnesses the state wants to call. The defense is trying to preclude the remaining witnesses. And according to the motion they filed, which we just had a look at, there are three more, including the medical examiner, to be recalled.
So they are trying to preclude that, and they have one more surrebuttal. I think there`s a chance the judge will allow the surrebuttal, just because it`s a capital case, and she doesn`t want to create error.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Army 1st Lieutenant Todd Weaver, 26, Williamsburg, Virginia. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, National Defense Service Medal. Parents, Don and Jean. Sisters Adriana (ph) and Christina. Brother Glen. Widow, Emma, daughter Kylie. Todd Weaver, American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And describe her as being very loving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some people do describe her as that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were they together? How were they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Affectionate, like a couple.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People would describe her as being irritable and upset.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes she`ll call and be real sweet. Ten minutes later she`d call in a rage, just screaming at my wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He even called a hotline for bipolar people. Said Jodi is bipolar and she needs help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, interesting questions posed by the jury today.
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, specifically to the Mesa police officer who examined the camera and the laptop, one question in particular. Pictures depicting Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander in sex in photos, before and after the killing were deleted but others were left. And the witness said yes. Now, that`s very important, because the jury`s recognizing that Arias selectively deleted photos from the camera in this fog that she claims she was in shortly after killing Travis Alexander.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, I`d like to hear your thought on the jury questions, because that really tells the tale. We can sit around and kick it around like a football all we want to, but it really matters about the questions this jury is asking.
CASAREZ: Well, let me tell you what I caught with the jury questioning with regard to the camera. It said about deleting the pictures, and the last pictures that were taken before and after Travis was dead, so they are saying that last inadvertent photo, that you see him on the ground -- next to last actually -- they`re saying he`s dead there. The defense theory is that he`s not dead there. And that`s a very big point that juror made.
GRACE: Everyone, the testimony for the day is over. Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
