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Nancy Grace
Final Witness in Jodi Arias Murder Trial
Aired May 01, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Jodi Arias slashes and shoots her lover, Travis Alexander, to death, leaving him dead in a wet shower stall. Bombshell tonight. We are live at the courthouse right now, the final witnesses on the stand. It`s coming to an end, the judge vowing to work past midnight, if needed, because in just hours, closing arguments set to commence. The case then goes to the jury.
Live testimony is ongoing. Let`s go straight into the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... schizophrenia.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: I`m sorry?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Schizophrenia especially.
MARTINEZ: And what is schizophrenia?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a psychotic disorder, meaning somebody has lost touch with reality. That`s what the definition means. The scale is separate. But the definition usually means somebody who is psychotic and lost touch in one way or another with reality, maybe hallucinating or having delusions.
MARTINEZ: And in this case, when we have that, that`s elevated here, isn`t it. You see that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir, it is.
MARTINEZ: What does MA stand for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mania.
MARTINEZ: And what is mania?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excessive energy, manic, means somebody high -- high not from drugs, high on energy, overactivity. All those things go into that scale.
MARTINEZ: And all of these responses that we have here were responses that were provided by the defendant, as far as you know, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: Judge, if we can take a break, like we discussed?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ladies and gentlemen, please take a 10-minute recess. Be back at -- this clock says 3:05, so let`s synchronize our watches. So at 3:10...
GRACE: Everybody, we are live and taking your calls. Out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," joining us from the courthouse.
Jean, I was just stunned when the defense shrink, Robert Geffner (ph), gets on the stand and starts talking about the bullet not going through the frontal lobe. Did I get his CV wrong? Is he also an MD?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": He is a clinical neuropsychologist, as well as a family psychologist, and...
GRACE: So no?
CASAREZ: ... the judge is -- the judge is allowing it to say that it may not have permeated the brain, so that he would have been able to walk a little bit, and plus (ph), it gives the credibility to Jodi Arias...
GRACE: OK. OK. Right, right, right.
CASAREZ: But Nancy, this defense witness...
GRACE: All I wanted to know, Jean, was, is he a medical doctor? Is he a neurologist? Is he a...
(CROSSTALK)
CASAREZ: He`s a clinical neuropsychologist.
GRACE: He`s a shrink. He`s a shrink, right?
CASAREZ: Clinical neuropsychologist. Yes.
GRACE: Patricia Saunders, what is a clinical neuropsychologist? Is he a medical doctor? It`s a simple question. Yes, no.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: No. Ph.D., not MD.
GRACE: What is it?
SAUNDERS: He`s a Ph.D.
GRACE: He`s a shrink.
SAUNDERS: He`s a shrink. He can administer...
GRACE: Well, good Lord...
SAUNDERS: ... psychological tests.
GRACE: ... in heaven! I`ve got a JD. Does that make me qualified to talk about a bullet going through somebody`s brain? And unlike him, I`ve been in plenty of autopsies, Dr. Patricia. So you know, I`m just very surprised that he opened himself up to that.
Hey, Jean, did the prosecution object to the testimony?
CASAREZ: Not that I`ve heard of, no, because they want to counter it. But Nancy, bam! When that cross-examination started and he started to be discredited, that his prior testimony had been just to be a smoking gun, that it had no credibility at all...
GRACE: Yes, you know what, Jean? You heard what I just heard. We`re going right back in the courtroom everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may continue cross-examination.
MARTINEZ: So one of the things that you told me was that this was not suggestive to you of borderline personality disorder, correct? That`s what you told me, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said you could not use this scale to diagnose borderline...
MARTINEZ: No, I`m asking you whether or not this is indicative of borderline personality disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it is not.
MARTINEZ: I want you to take a look at another exhibit, then.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: Sir, are you familiar with somebody by the name of Timothy J. Troll (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not personally.
MARTINEZ: Are you familiar with the psychological assessment in "Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, somewhat.
MARTINEZ: And with regard to -- are you familiar with an article entitled "Discriminate Validity of the MMPI (ph) Borderline Personality Disorder Scale"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not off the top of my head.
MARTINEZ: Well, why don`t you go and take a look at page number 234, and take a look at table 2 at the bottom of that article.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Judge, may we approach?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may.
GRACE: Oh, goodness. OK, another slowdown in the courtroom. You know, this happens more and more as the end of the case approaches. Each side is trying to delay. They`re finding things wrong with every question and every answer.
I`ve got a big headline for both sides. It`s over, all right? The jury has heard months of evidence. This one objection is not really going to make a difference.
Out to Jean Casarez and Alexis Weed, both standing out in front of the courthouse. Jean Casarez, this guy, this defense shrink, Robert Geffner (ph) -- he never even spoke with Jodi Arias. He never even evaluated her in person, right?
CASAREZ: No, but I think that can help the defense because then he can`t be cross-examined on that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: All right (INAUDIBLE) This has a table, table number 2, involving the K-corrected (ph) MMPI inventory T (ph) scores, doesn`t it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And what is K-corrected mean to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s actually correcting the profile or (ph) certain (ph) scales based on the level of defensiveness, the K scale, that the person had.
MARTINEZ: And in fact, it`s -- you keep looking down. Are you looking at something else?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I`m looking at the same thing.
MARTINEZ: And sir, this talks about the MMPI (ph) and it involves scores for borderline personality disorder, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: Major depression, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: Dystimia (ph), right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dystimia.
MARTINEZ: Dystimia, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: Bipolar disorder, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And psychodimea (ph), right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe so, yes.
MARTINEZ: Pardon?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe so.
MARTINEZ: And schizophrenia, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And also schizoaffective disorder and diagnostic (ph) groups, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe so.
MARTINEZ: And then there`s a column there for borderline personality disorder, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And the normal number (INAUDIBLE) looked at was 61, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And then it looked at these scales that we`re looking at here, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: It looked at the F (ph) scale, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And in this article, the F (ph) scale was elevated, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mean the average you`re talking about...
MARTINEZ: Well, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: The average F (ph) score was elevated, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And in fact, we have an elevated score here, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would need to do one more thing. I think that may be on the MMPI (ph) 1, so they`re different scales. Id` have to -- if I could look at that for a second, I just need to know...
MARTINEZ: Well, I`m asking whether or not this is an elevated score, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is elevated, but there`s two different things.
MARTINEZ: I understand. So is this an elevated F (ph) score?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This one, correct, is.
MARTINEZ: Right? And with regard to number two, which you told me was what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Number two?
MARTINEZ: Right here, 1, 2, 3...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, scale 2.
MARTINEZ: Right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Depression.
MARTINEZ: And with regard to depression, this is elevated, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. If we may approach?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you may approach.
GRACE: OK, let me just tell you that the jury holds it against whoever is objecting at this point. They`ve been trapped in this courtroom since January, and now they`re at the bitter end. Everybody, these are the final witnesses. This is the end of the trial. Closing arguments are set to commence tomorrow morning.
Unleash the lawyers, as we wait for the lawyers to hash it out in front of the judge at the sidebar, Eric Schwartzreich, defense attorney, Kirby Clements, defense attorney, respectively out of Miami and Atlanta.
Eric Schwartzreich, Jean Casarez said that it may be a good thing that this witness has never even met Jodi Arias, yet he`s testifying to her mental condition, because he can`t be cross-examined about the meeting.
I disagree. If you are following that vein of thought, you could just put a cabbage or a turnip up on the stand because they never met Jodi Arias, either, so they can`t be cross-examined. I think it`s not a good idea to put up a witness on the stand that was supposed to evaluate Jodi Arias, that never met her. It`s, like, you know, those psychics that you talk to on line that never meet you.
What about it, Schwartzreich?
ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Grace, I think it`s a great idea. And I`m going to have to disagree with you on it. A lot of times, you will have an expert, someone go -- go do an evaluation for a client, and you do not, purposely...
GRACE: Hey, Eric...
SCHWARTZREICH: ... have them meet them.
GRACE: As much as I like you, we`re going back live.
MARTINEZ: ... elevation, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: PD (ph), also an elevation, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: MF is not elevated. That`s male-female, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes (INAUDIBLE)
MARTINEZ: PA is elevated, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: PT is elevated, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And SC (ph) is elevated, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And so is the MA, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: One of the things that -- or the issues that you raised was, Well, this study refers to the MMPI 1, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t know. I needed to refresh my memory...
MARTINEZ: Well, assuming it does refer to the MMPI 1, correct -- let`s assume it does refer to that. You`re saying just because it refers to the MMPI 1, it has no application to this particular scale at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. The score -- the reason I was asking is you see this has a cutoff of 65. The MMPI 1 had a cutoff of 70. So whether it`s clinically elevated, which is what I was trying to ask on the article, I have to go back and look compared to 70, rather than 65.
MARTINEZ: OK. So (INAUDIBLE) I want you to take a look at it and see whether or not the numerical scales are above 70. That`s what you are asking about, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. Yes, all the ones that you had highlighted are above 70 -- or 70 or above.
MARTINEZ: Correct. Which (INAUDIBLE) a valid study to look at, even though we are now doing MMPI 2, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And this indicates that of 61 people that had borderline...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true that of the 61 people that were diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, every one of them had the identical or similar profile that we have here that we`ve been talking about?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
MARTINEZ: Well, the F scale is 72.77 on this exhibit, isn`t it, 651.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: What is the F number for the defendant in exhibit number 631?
GRACE: Uh-oh. Hold on. They`re looking at that graph. As he`s looking, very quickly, to the lawyers, Eric Schwartzreich, Kirby Clements. What about putting a witness on the stand that has never met with the defendant? And they`re evaluating her. I think it`s a huge mistake.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Go ahead, Kirby.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think so, Nancy. I think if you have that witness evaluating some independent evidence, such as these test results, that witness can then say whether the results are valid...
GRACE: Oh, Kirby, Kirby...
CLEMENTS: ... and whether the conclusion is there.
GRACE: ... Kirby...
CLEMENTS: And plus, in your case, you know you`d be saying that this guy had been deluded by Jodi Arias`s charms, and he now avoids that stigma that you would try to (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: You do know she sold her underwear, or she says her panties, on eBay or something like that. Just hold that thought, Clements, just a moment. But very quickly, Kirby -- ever, ever in all your years as a prosecutor, did you ever put on, let`s just say a medical examiner that had not performed the autopsy?
CLEMENTS: Actually, one time, I had to because my medical examiner was testifying in south Georgia, and I had to put on the supervising medical examiner. That`s the only time I did it.
GRACE: That supervised the autopsy, that was at least in the building.
CLEMENTS: Exactly.
GRACE: At least maybe in the room, maybe looked over while the autopsy was being performed. But in this case, Eric Schwartzreich, they`ve dug so deep, they`ve brought in a guy that never even met with Jodi Arias.
SCHWARTZREICH: You got to go -- you got to dig deep. And sometimes, Nancy, less is more. You`d want to limit the cross-examination. Juan Arias (sic) is a very competent attorney.
GRACE: No. (INAUDIBLE)
SCHWARTZREICH: He`s a pitbull in that courtroom.
GRACE: When I am charged...
SCHWARTZREICH: It is a great idea that they have not met her.
GRACE: ... with murder one, do not like Eric Schwartzreich or Kirby Clements represent me.
OK, we`re going to be right back with live testimony. I`m hearing in my ear it`s going to resume in just a few moments. Let`s hurry. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are down to the final witnesses in the Jodi Arias murder one trial. Let`s go into the courtroom for testimony.
MARTINEZ: ... number 631.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 79. Yes.
MARTINEZ: So this F (ph) scale is above the clinical threshold of 70 that you talked about, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: With regard to the number two, the D, which is depression, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: The level here on the study was 80.43, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: That`s above the 70 cutoff line, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is correct.
MARTINEZ: And then number 3, which is the HY, isn`t it true that in this study, it was 70.05, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: That`s above the 70 marker, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it`s at 70. That`s still clinical.
MARTINEZ: But it -- OK, it`s still clinical. Number four, which was the PD, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: That was at 79.75, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: Number 6 was 73.15, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I am actually assuming you`re reading it, so I`m not going to -- I`m assuming you`re reading me the same numbers, so I`d say yes.
MARTINEZ: I understand. And number 7 was 72.34, right, assuming I`m reading it correctly?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And number 8 was 79.20, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: So if we assume that the cutoff is 70, the threshold on the F scale is met, correct, to be clinical, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: The scales on the others that we just talked about are also clinical because they are above 70, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir, or at -- at or above.
MARTINEZ: And this study indicates that those with borderline personality disorder have that type of graph, for lack of a better term, yes or no?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can`t answer that yes or no because you`re asking...
MARTINEZ: (INAUDIBLE) thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
MARTINEZ: Sir, with regard to the -- one of the other items that you talked about was this trauma symptom inventory test. Do you remember talking about that?
CLEMENTS: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And you indicated that this was to identify trauma in the past involving somebody, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, not necessarily past. It could have just occurred. But if you define that as past, yes.
MARTINEZ: And the -- do you know somebody by the name of John Brear (ph), Ph.D.?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: He`s actually the person that put it together, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And are you familiar with what his psychometric summary is in terms of applying the TSI to personality disorder?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t recall that one. I`d have to look at...
MARTINEZ: Pardon?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t recall that one. I`d have to look at it.
MARTINEZ: So what is your -- what was your opinion previously that you gave us with regard to this TSI? You indicated previously that it was indicative of post-traumatic stress disorder, rather than borderline personality disorder, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think I said it that strong, but that`s the general idea.
MARTINEZ: That was the general idea that you left us with, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
GRACE: Uh-oh, Martinez laying a trap! He`s starting to quote some Ph.D. about psychometric summaries. He`s about to catch this guy in a trap. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: It is down to the wire. The judge is vowing that closing arguments will begin tomorrow morning. And now the last witness is on the stand.
MARTINEZ: ... 644. Do you remember that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t know the number, but...
MARTINEZ: This is it, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And this is the one that you indicated that, well, there were the summary (ph) scales on there that Dr. DeMarte did not include, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And you indicated that, sure (ph), somebody -- if they`re hand-scoring it, in your opinion, they should always have the summary scales attached to it, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not in my opinion. It`s provided in the manual to score it.
MARTINEZ: So you believe that the manual indicates that even if you hand-score it, that is something that you are required to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Required" isn`t the way that would be the correct terminology for any test. It would say that in order to use this test, here are the scales and here`s how you devise the summary scales. I don`t think somebody to (ph) say you`re required to do anything on a test. You`re giving it to get information, and here`s the information you can get. It`s just not a terminology we would use.
MARTINEZ: Have you ever hand-scored one of these?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes.
MARTINEZ: When was the last time you did it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, last time I probably hand-scored at TSI would probably about eight, ten years ago.
MARTINEZ: And at that time, you did the summary scales, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we did.
MARTINEZ: You keep saying "we." Did you do it or did somebody else?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) in all these settings, I`ve had staff, so I would train them how and then they...
GRACE: You know, this witness might as well just lay down and let Martinez ride over him in an SUV because it`s coming.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The trial ongoing, the judge vowing to work past midnight tonight in order to do closing arguments tomorrow morning. Let`s go in the courtroom for testimony.
MARTINEZ: And so it is your view that you`re sure about this issue involving the summary scales as you are about everything else -- in other words, that the person who put this test together indicates strongly that these summary scales should be created as part of giving this test, if you`re hand-scoring it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s again language that doesn`t make sense. No, I haven`t talked to John (ph) specifically about...
MARTINEZ: No, I`m not asking if you talked to John. I`m asking what your understanding is. Is it your belief, as you sit here today, that the people that put this test out -- you didn`t create it, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
MARTINEZ: That the people who created this test are saying if you hand-score this test, you are required, strongly required to also create, as part of this hand-scoring, the summary scales.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I don`t recall reading any statement that would be stated the way you just did.
MARTINEZ: Well, what is the statement that you recall?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just instructions on how to obtain the summary scores if you are hand scoring.
MARTINEZ: Right. But instructions are different than a recommendation, wouldn`t you agree?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. You don`t get recommendations, per se, in instruction manuals. You get in the manuals instructions on how to use the test, how to score it, how to interpret it. So I don`t think it gives you, like, recommendations.
MARTINEZ: So what you are saying is that there are instructions on how to prepare these summary scales, but that is what it says. That is what they are, instructions on how to do it, if you want to do it, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you leave out the last three words, if you want to do it. It just says here is how you obtain these summary scales and then it tells you how to interpret it.
MARTINEZ: But your view is that just because the instructions are there, it is bad work on the part of Jeanine DeMarte, because she did not do the summary scales. That is what you told us, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Shoot.
MARTINEZ: Go ahead and clean up, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sorry about that. I was doing so well.
GRACE: OK. He spilled water twice and burped on the stand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you repeat that?
MARTINEZ: Go ahead and finish up. I understand.
GRACE: He spilled water twice and burped.
MARTINEZ: We were talking about instructions involving the TSI and the summary scales.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And what you are telling us is that what you remember from the manual is that there are instructions to this TSI that would tell the psychologists how to create these summary scales should they choose to do so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they are hand scoring is what you are asking me, right?
MARTINEZ: If they are hand scoring. Because you did this by computer, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And what you are saying now is that there is no specific language in those instructions that indicate that it is mandatory to provide summary scales, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is correct.
MARTINEZ: So this added requirement or this not added requirement -- this statement on your part that Jeanine DeMarte did a bad job because she did not do the summary scales was based on your view that it should be done, not on what the manual says.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have asked me two questions in there. First, I never used the word bad, period. So.
GRACE: Right now on the stand is the defense shrink. Geffner (ph). He is on cross examination by Martinez. The judge is vowing she will keep the testimony going until past midnight tonight in order to start closing arguments tomorrow morning.
MARTINEZ: You actually criticized her work from the stand? Right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of it. Yes.
MARTINEZ: And one of the things that you criticized from the stand involved the TSI, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And you criticized the fact that she did not have summary scales, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Only partially.
MARTINEZ: The answer is, yes, you did criticize. Didn`t you? You said she should have done it, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said two things. I said, yes, they are part of that, and yes, she should have known they were part of it. I didn`t criticize her for not requiring to do it, I criticized part of it because she didn`t evidently know they were there or understand what they were.
MARTINEZ: How do you know that she didn`t know what she needed to do? How do you know? Can you read minds, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. Argumentative.
MARTINEZ: Sir, you didn`t speak to Jeanine DeMarte about it, did you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
MARTINEZ: You never asked her about whether or not she knew about the supplementary -- the summary scales, did you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
MARTINEZ: And in fact, you never saw anything in writing that indicated from her that said she didn`t know. Right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. May we approach?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you may approach.
GRACE: As the lawyers hash it out and stand in front of the judge, out to you, Alexis Weed, standing outside the courthouse, joining us live. Alexis, it seems to me like Martinez has Geffner on the ropes. What do you think?
WEED: Yes, he has done a pretty solid job so far, it seems. And one of the things that was really striking today, Nancy, was when Martinez was able to get him to admit that that shot to the head would have been immediately incapacitating. Now, you remember the medical examiner had said it would be immediately incapacitating, but Geffner stuck to his guns and he said that, no, no, that Travis would still be able to be mobile, meaning he could still have attacked Jodi Arias.
GRACE: I appreciate that, Alexis. But he is not a brain surgeon. He is not even a medical doctor. He is a shrink.
WEED: That`s right. That`s right.
MARTINEZ: Well, you made that leap based on what? You read her report, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And then you read the results to the TSI, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And those are the only things that were provided to you, according to you, involving this TSI and the summary scales, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those were the only materials provided to me, not the only information provided to me.
MARTINEZ: And in any of those materials, did they provide any indication that Jeanine DeMarte was ignorant of this requirement that you believe exists?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You keep saying requirement, and I never indicated it was required first. So no. There is no -- I never used the term required. The word required is not used in any of the manuals. So that is the first part.
MARTINEZ: OK, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The second part is, was I provided any materials that indicated that she did not know what the summary scales were or that they existed? No, I was not provided materials that said that.
MARTINEZ: Now, sir, with regard to the summary scale so that we know what we are talking about, if we are talking about summary scales, aren`t they just three readings? Right? We are talking about three readings, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would have to define what you mean by readings.
MARTINEZ: Let me just show you exhibit 646.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And count with with me. One, two, three. Right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t call them readings. We call them scales.
MARTINEZ: Well, they are three areas that have a summary, right? They are called summary scales for a reason, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is correct.
MARTINEZ: Because they summarize what is in this box to the left, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: So you have 10 areas or sites that the test addresses, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: You have ten readings, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Readings is not a good term. It is 10 scales, yes.
MARTINEZ: All right, let`s use the word -- there are ten scales that are reported, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTINEZ: I understand. But you have the ten scales. And then you have these three scales to the right. Is that the word you want to use?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And with regard to these three scales to the right, what they merely do is they summarize what those ten scales are there -- those ten scales say, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you leave out the word merely, the answer would be yes.
MARTINEZ: So they do summarize what is here, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: In other words, what you are saying is, somebody can take a look at this, which is the full scales, right, these are the full scales, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And this is sort of a shortcut scale, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, shortcut is not a good term.
MARTINEZ: I understand it is not a shortcut, but the term summary means it is not the whole thing, doesn`t it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It means it is based on a compilation of other things.
MARTINEZ: But if someone as experienced as you as a clinical psychologist or as an expert in this, to be honest, you don`t really need these scales, you are way too smart for that, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. Argumentative.
MARTINEZ: Sir, you can do it. You have had how many years of experience in this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In trauma or in this test?
MARTINEZ: No, total experience in the field of psychology?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 35.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: It is down to the wire. The Jodi Arias murder 1 trial. Will these last witnesses make a difference?
MARTINEZ: And in those 35 years, you dealt with this TSI test, haven`t you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, the TSI was produced probably in the research version a little over 20 years ago.
MARTINEZ: So you have dealt with this for many years, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is correct.
MARTINEZ: Whether it is the TSI 1 or the TSI 2, you dealt with it for 20 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. A long time.
MARTINEZ: And in those 20 years, you have given this test many times?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And many times you have been able to take a look at all of these scales here, one through ten, whatever they are, and you know what they mean, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: So you are saying that you need the summary to be able to tell you what these scales mean?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
MARTINEZ: Thank you.
Now, with regard to this trauma symptom inventory, which is 646, you indicated that this indicated this was just, just -- but this is one of the tests that looks at trauma. Right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir. Trauma symptoms.
MARTINEZ: Right. It doesn`t look at personality like the MMPI, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: Because MMPI stands for Minnesota Multi State Personality, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Minnesota Multi Phasing Personality.
MARTINEZ: Right. But the term there is personality. Right? That is what it is looking at, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And that is one of the most studied tests around?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And is this test that is studied a lot? This TSI?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, a lot, yes, a lot if you are using MMPI, probably nothing as much as the MMPI, but this one is pretty well studied.
MARTINEZ: And this right here, this looks at the trauma as reported by the person who is taking the test, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The symptoms, yes.
MARTINEZ: Right, the symptoms that we are talking about. And some of the symptoms you told us were what, for example?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the scales would be anxious arousal, depression, defensive avoidance, dissociation, sexual concerns, dysfunctional sexual behavior. And impaired self-reference. I`m assuming you are asking me for the (inaudible) significant scales.
MARTINEZ: And then we have DSB here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: What is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dysfunctional sexual behavior.
MARTINEZ: And for example, what do those questions ask?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In general, without giving you the exact questions, they ask about the person`s behavior sexually, perhaps like, are they satisfied with the number of partners, do they have any type of unpleasant behaviors or things that they are dysfunctional, unprotected sex, too many partners, those types of things go into what would be called dysfunctional sexual behavior.
MARTINEZ: And the person who is taking the test is given a number from zero to three, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And zero means never, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And three means often, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And so for example on question 28 of the TSI--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. May we approach?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: While the lawyers once again approach the bench, unleash the lawyers. Eric Schwartzreich, Kirby Clements, Eric, did you ever notice in trial that the jury, whether your objection is a good one or not or whether you really need to object or not or whether you are just trying to break up the flow of the questioning of the other side, the jury holds it against you. When they are tired and they are ready to go home and you keep objecting, they hold it against you, whichever side is doing it. Did you know that?
ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Jurors are not morons, Nancy. They have been there for four months. They`re done. They don`t even want to be there anymore. These witnesses, these experts, are boring them. They want to get to the closing. Enough is enough. This case needs to be over. It doesn`t matter what these experts are saying at this point. I believe the jury has already made up their mind.
GRACE: I think they are hearing this white noise right now, Kirby, because they know the facts better than any of us do from looking from the outside in. Kirby, have you ever when you were a prosecutor, heard the defense make an objection, look at the jury, and one of them at least one of them goes, like please, let`s get on with it?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Many a times when I was a prosecutor. I have had plenty of defense lawyers try to break my flow and the jury would just be like disgusted. I had a few jurors audibly say, "oh, come on."
GRACE: And you know what, Kirby, it got to where -- it didn`t take me long to figure this out. It would have to be an objection I really had to make, or else I would just sit there and let inappropriate testimony come in as long as it wasn`t hurting me, because I did not -- it was not worth irritating the jury just to score a point. You have to really need that objection.
CLEMENTS: Technical stuff doesn`t matter now.
GRACE: They are still at the sidebar right now. Let`s take a quick break and come back for more testimony.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Testimony in the Jodi Arias case still going on. The judge vows to work past midnight to get the testimony in for closing arguments in the a.m. Let`s go into that testimony.
MARTINEZ: Sir, you indicated that you reviewed a TSI that was administered by Dr. Karp (ph), correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The report by Dr. Karp, yes.
MARTINEZ: And you indicated that the profile there, which is what we had here, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have a profile here, that`s correct.
MARTINEZ: Right. Didn`t you tell us that the results in Dr. Karp`s testing or the TSI, were the same or consistent as what we have in 646, didn`t you tell us that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I said of the scales elevated here, you have seven that are elevated. Five of those were the same elevations she had, according to her report. One, this intrusive -- I`m touching this, it`s not helping you. The intrusive experiences one, in her report, was clinical. It`s below that. And she did not indicate that either of these two, the sexual -- I`m sorry. Hit the wrong -- sexual concerns and dysfunctional sexual behavior, she did not indicate were in the clinical --
MARTINEZ: She didn`t indicate what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not indicate that they were in the clinical range. So it`s a similar profile but not exactly the same.
MARTINEZ: So you don`t know what the profile was for example with regard to DSB.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was below clinical.
MARTINEZ: Why don`t you tell us what the number was?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know, she did not report it.
MARTINEZ: Where would you have that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where would I have that?
MARTINEZ: Yes, you reviewed it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would not have her number unless somebody gave me her actual results. I have the report.
MARTINEZ: So with regard to John Brenner (ph), we were talking about him, one of the things that you said that with regard to this profile that we`re looking at, that this, to you, talks to trauma, not to personality, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In general, yes.
MARTINEZ: Are you familiar with the statement from Mr. Brier (ph), who indicates that in a --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTINEZ: Psychiatric inpatient sample, TSI scales identify 89 percent of those independently diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Are you familiar with that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not offhand. I`d have to see the article.
MARTINEZ: Sure. Let me show it to you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
MARTINEZ: 652.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Marine Lance Corporal Nate Schultz, 19, Safety Harbor, Florida. Purple Heart, National Defense Service Medal, Afghanistan Campaign Medal. Parents, Dwayne and Lisa, five sisters. Nate Schultz, American hero.
And now straight into the courtroom.
MARTINEZ: Are you done looking at it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: If I can have it back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: Doesn`t he indicate, under his psychometric summary, that in a psychiatric inpatient sample, TSI scales -- these are TSI scales, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: Identify 89 percent of those that have already been independently diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, isn`t that what he says?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, first, that`s not necessarily --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTINEZ: Sir, let`s take a look at exhibit 652 and see whether or not that sentence is included there, yes or no?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re asking me two questions.
MARTINEZ: I`m asking you whether that sentence is there. Take a look at it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You asked me if John Greer (ph) said that.
MARTINEZ: Well --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a --
MARTINEZ: Let me go ahead and have it back. This does talk about John Greer (ph), Ph.D. at the top, doesn`t it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. He`s the author of the test.
MARTINEZ: And it does indicate that it`s copy written, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me, yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And it talks about the validity scales of the TSI, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: And it talks about the clinical scales, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
MARTINEZ: It`s on his letterhead, isn`t it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought it was on PAR (ph) letterhead.
MARTINEZ: Pardon?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought it was the test publisher`s letterhead. I`d have to look--
MARTINEZ: Whose name is there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not his letterhead, this looks like his website.
MARTINEZ: It may be his website, but it is his letterhead, right?
GRACE: Everyone, I`m signing off. But a special Mother`s Day contest for custom t-shirts and the handcuff necklace, proceeds go to missing and abused children. Go to nancygrace.com and win that necklace. It`s part of -- it`s a copy of the one that went missing. Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern in Phoenix. And until then, good night, friend.
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