Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Bizarre Opening to Zimmerman Trial; Latest on Missing Child
Aired June 24, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by a the captain of the neighborhood watch.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, the all-female jury clearly stunned when the prosecution kicks it off with a mouth full of curse words in opening statements.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the second degree murder trial against George Zimmerman, the first thing jurors will hear...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) they always get away. Those were the words in that grown man`s mouth.
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, CHARGED WITH MURDER: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) they always get away. This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors must prove that Zimmerman was the aggressor. They`ll argue that he profiled and continued to pursue Trayvon Martin even after a dispatcher told him not to.
DISPATCHER: Are you following him?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
DISPATCHER: OK, we don`t need you to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense aims to show (ph) Zimmerman and the man who was in a fight for his life the night he admitted to shooting and killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knock, knock. Who`s there? George Zimmerman who? Good, you`re on the jury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury (INAUDIBLE) sworn (ph) panel of all women.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Zimmerman did not (ph) shoot Trayvon Martin. He shot him for the worst of all reasons, because he wanted to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Toledo, a parent`s worst nightmare, 18- month-old Baby Elaina last seen taking a nap. Minutes later, she`s gone, gone from the family`s own bedroom in the middle of the day and nobody sees a thing?
Did Mommy take off in a mystery van at midnight just before the baby vanishes? Tonight, as Feds search the muddy Maumee River and police seize video surveillance from Walgreen`s pharmacy, a mystery witness emerges claiming she sees Mommy, just Mommy, with baby Elaina at a Gas and Go just before the baby disappears.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it was the next day (INAUDIBLE) The boyfriend`s mother changed the diaper and gave her a bottle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was told directly from my cousin Steven that Angela changed the baby`s diaper and gave her a juice cup before they left for the store, not my aunt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I seen that the back door was wide open. She had told me they had ran out the back door, the boyfriend and a friend of his.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Steven and I, both of us went running out the back door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My aunt and Steven went out the back door because everybody was out front arguing and carrying on. They knew clearly the baby didn`t go out the front door. They ran out to look and make sure that not just herself got out, but you know, nobody went out that way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody in that house knows where...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. To Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old boy heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by the captain of the neighborhood watch. In the last hours, the all-female jury clearly stunned when the prosecution kicks it all off with a mouthful of curse words in opening statements.
We are live and taking your calls. Straight out to Deborah Roberts, news anchor, Florida News Network. All right, the prosecution starts it off by yelling out (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punk, and these (EXPLETIVE DELETED) always get away. What did the defense do? How did a knock-knock joke get into the definitely`s opening statement? I don`t like it!
DEBORAH ROBERTS, FLORIDA NEWS NETWORK (via telephone): I don`t like it, either. Nobody can figure it out, and just feels it`s just in such poor taste to have started off a defense case like -- in this trial with a knock-knock joke. And the prosecutor -- those were George Zimmerman`s words that he used. But you`re right, Nancy, he shocked the entire courtroom, dropping no less than three F-bombs.
GRACE: Out to you Jean Casarez, joining us there in the field at the Zimmerman trial. You know, Jean Casarez, I remember the first time I had to say -- and I mean filthy, filthy, the worst things you could think of, the very worst curse words in front of a jury. And it was quoting what the defendant said before he raped and murdered somebody. And it was very hard for me to do.
And I actually recall seeing a female juror go like this when I said what I said. But those were his words, not mine. The prosecution had to do this not to show that Zimmerman has a bad moral (ph) because he uses curse words, but to go to intent, to motive.
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: That`s right, and to show the state of mind of George Zimmerman because ill will, hatred and spite -- that is the "depraved mind" that the prosecutor must show. And out of the box, Nancy, as I`m sitting there, it was shocking, yes. I mean, you jumped when John Guy (ph) started to give his opening statement. But the passion -- and it was chilling as he described every step of that night, according to the prosecution.
GRACE: With me, Jean Casarez in the field. Let`s take a listen to what she`s talking about. Here it is from the horse`s own mouth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks. These (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away. Those were the words in that grown man`s mouth as he followed in the dark a 17-year-old boy who he didn`t know. And excuse my...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you see just a portion of opening statements going down in a case that seems to be bringing down the courthouse walls around it.
With me right now, reporter/producer Michael Christian. Michael, you`ve covered a lot of cases, including some of mine that I tried. Weigh in.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, FREELANCE REPORTER/PRODUCER: Nancy, I want you to walk back with me 20 years, the O.J. Simpson murder trial. How many times in the last 20 years do you think Chris Darden has regretted, has woken up in a cold sweat, If only I hadn`t had O.J. try that glove on. I think Don West (ph) here may be going through a similar thing in the next 20 years. This knock-knock joke was outrageous. It was -- it fell flat. A lead balloon is being much too kind.
GRACE: Michael I didn`t get it. I didn`t get the -- it was something like, Knock, knock. Who`s there? George Zimmerman. Who? Fine, you`re on the jury. What was the point?
CHRISTIAN: You know, it might have made some degree of sense, not good sense, but some degree of sense if he had used it during jury selection. If he had a rapport with this jury that had developed during the trial, maybe, maybe he could have used it in a closing argument. But to start out his opening with this was just crazy. I don`t think...
GRACE: You know what, Michael?
CHRISTIAN: ... the jurors knew how to take it.
GRACE: I think you`re right. I don`t know how much damage it`s going to do to the defense. Let`s take a listen to what Michael Christian is telling us about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knock, knock. Who`s there? George Zimmerman. George Zimmerman who? All right. Good. You`re on the jury. Nothing?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Seemed to me right there, he was almost about to say, Well, you get it? Fine, you`re on the jury? Because it was dead quiet in that courtroom.
But opening statements, as we all know, are not evidence. Unleash the lawyers, Darryl Cohen, defense attorney, Atlanta, former prosecutor. Also with me, defense attorney out of Miami Eric Schwartzreich.
All right, Darryl, weigh in.
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: ... possible thing his lawyer could have done and could have said. He has an innocent client...
GRACE: I`m sorry, your mic wasn`t opened up. What did you say? Start at the get-go?
COHEN: I think it is the worst possible thing his lawyer could have done on opening statement. He`s got an innocent client. Make the state prove it piece by piece by piece. Absolutely don`t do what he did.
GRACE: All right, Darryl, remember the days when you were a felony prosecutor along with me in the same courthouse?
COHEN: I do.
GRACE: I could not agree with you more. If I were the defense attorney, which I of course would never be, but I would be saying, you know, to H-E-L-L with the knock-knock joke. I`d be standing on my ear -- My guy is innocent!
COHEN: You got it.
GRACE: All right, Schwartzreich. What about it?
ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Grace, knock, knock. Knock, knock. Take the bait.
GRACE: Who`s there?
SCHWARTZREICH: Opportunity.
GRACE: Opportunity who?
SCHWARTZREICH: Opportunity only knocks once. Come on, Nancy.
GRACE: I like it.
SCHWARTZREICH: The problem is, is that opening statements, you get one shot...
GRACE: One shot.
SCHWARTZREICH: ... one opportunity.
GRACE: OK, put up Cohen...
SCHWARTZREICH: However, with that being...
GRACE: ... and Schwartzreich...
SCHWARTZREICH: With that being said, it`s not fatal.
GRACE: I got to tell you something. Little known fact. I would always write out word for word by hand my opening and closing. And just in case I needed them, I would old them like this down the middle. And if I needed them, I`d open them up and turn away from the jury and keep walking.
But one time I pointed with it, and my hand was shaking and I didn`t even know it. I learned from that. You get one swing at the ball in opening statements. And as I said, gentlemen, of course that`s not evidence, but it sets the tone, that first impression. When you stand up and you tell that jury what`s going on, what you believe, what you really believe, why you`re there, and that`s what we got.
Back out to you, Jean Casarez joining me there at the courthouse. Jean, what else happened?
CASAREZ: You know, I think that the defense, as they went through their opening statement, may have rehabilitated themselves from that knock- knock joke. And let me tell you my perception in the courtroom. There was so much emotion from that prosecution opening. I mean, it was just so riveting that I think the defense wanted to make it not lighthearted but to move on from that as they show a case of self-defense.
And that`s what they did as that opening progressed from the side of the defense...
GRACE: And another thing, Jean...
CASAREZ: ... to show that George Zimmerman was on the bottom, Trayvon on the top.
GRACE: What I thought -- yes, you know what? You`re so right, how crucial that positioning was, who was on the bottom. Really, who was the victim in this case is what that`s all about. But Jean, I think the 911 call said it all, said more than either one of those attorneys ever could. Let`s take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) always get away. This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something. Something`s wrong with him. Yes. He`s coming to check me out. He`s got something in his hands. I don`t know what his deal is.
DISPATCHER: Are you following him?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
DISPATCHER: OK, we don`t need you to do that.
ZIMMERMAN: OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like a male.
911 OPERATOR: And you don`t know why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why. I think they`re yelling help, but I don`t know. (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK. Does he look hurt to you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on, so...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re sending.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. I`m not speaking as a lawyer. I`m not speaking as somebody propped up here on TV. I`m speaking as a mother. If I had heard my son cry out like that -- Jean, what happened in the courtroom?
CASAREZ: Nancy, when the defense said, We`re going to play the call for you, and I think they just started it, Sybrina Fulton (ph) who I saw, Nancy, had been shaking in her seat -- I mean, through the prosecution`s opening, I just saw her shaking. She stood up and she walked out of that courtroom so quickly. And a lady pastor who was there behind her got up immediately and followed her. And I heard the pastor say to the deputy, Is she OK? The pastor came back in. Sybrina Fulton did not come back in that courtroom before lunch.
GRACE: Jean Casarez joining me there in the field. And listen, people, we`re just in opening statements. I`ve got to hear the evidence before I make a call on this. But I do know this. If I had heard my son crying out like this on a 911 call, I don`t know if I could have stood up to leave the courtroom.
Listen to what this jury heard.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like a male.
911 OPERATOR: And you don`t know why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why. I think they`re yelling help, but I don`t know. (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK. Does he look hurt to you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on, so...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re sending.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something.
DISPATCHER: Are you following him?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
DISPATCHER: OK, we don`t need you to do that.
911 OPERATOR: So you think he`s helling help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: What is your...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gunshots!
911 OPERATOR: You just heard gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: How many?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tragic shooting of Trayvon Martin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The teenager and the neighborhood watch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Questions about Zimmerman`s story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He claimed the teenager bashed his head and broke his nose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened in the pursuit?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who was on top?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe my son was defending himself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the gun went off...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a .9-millimeter gun. Trayvon Martin had a bag of Skittles.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God. He shot -- he shot the person. He just said he shot the person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He heard the screams continuously from the time he stepped out of the front of the house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Bombshell tonight. Opening statements in the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman trial landed with a blast, the prosecution starting off with a mouth full of curse words, and the defense starting with a knock-knock joke.
But Jean Casarez, there at the courthouse, there was a major, major ruling by the judge, Judge Nelson, in this case, that said VRT, voice recorded technology, cannot be allowed in this case. What was the ruling?
CASAREZ: That`s right, that experts cannot take the stand to say that through science, they determined that it most likely was Trayvon Martin`s voice who was screaming on that 911 call.
So what is left? The parents of Trayvon Martin, the parents of George Zimmerman, but in the prosecution opening, they did not say that you will hear from the parents as to whose voice that was on the 911 call, but you would hear the call.
GRACE: And Jean, it was a bitter fight and there were all these voice specialists. But even among specialists hired by the same side, they had different opinions. It`s very difficult to compare a scream to the person in their regular voice. Like, if you screamed, it would be very difficult for me to compare that scream and say that`s definitely Jean Casarez.
And Jean -- let me see Jean, please. Everybody, we`re talking about a Fry (ph) hearing. Think back to when I started trying cases. We didn`t have DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid. That was not allowed. There was a time when fingerprints had not been -- had -- were never used.
You have to show that it is a scientific method that is accepted within the scientific community, that you can rely on it. And right now, voice recorded technology is just not there, according to Nelson, Jean.
CASAREZ: That`s right. Speaker technology, speaker identification has been developed to a point, but screaming identification -- that has not. And particularly on this call, when the voice was in the distance, when people were talking over it, when it was on a cell phone and the microphone not equipped to get the accurate recording, the environmental conditions of wind and rain. And it just could not be determined whose voice that was scientifically.
GRACE: Well, some of the considerations, Jean, is absolutely right, Jean, was that the duration of the call was not really long enough to make an identification of the scream. Was it Trayvon? Was it Zimmerman. The circumstances -- it was scratchy. There were voices going on, as you said.
Also, one very esteemed expert said that in all of his many, many years, well over a decade of doing VRT, he had never heard a human scream compared to the known voice in speaking, in articulating regular conversation -- very hard to make a voice match between a scream and regular talking. Yes, no?
CASAREZ: That`s right. And -- yes. And what the prosecution`s expert had done is taken a little bit of a scream and looped it over to get those 16 seconds they needed, and then taken George Zimmerman voice and raised the pitch from that non-emergency 911 call. And the defense expert said that`s junk science. You can`t do that.
GRACE: With me now, in addition to Jean Casarez at the courthouse, Frank Taaffe, close friend, confidant of defendant George Zimmerman. Also with me, representing Trayvon Martin`s family, Daryl Parks.
Frank, I want a very brief answer. And I`m going to come back to you, so help me God in heaven. Taaffe, is that Zimmerman screaming?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go. Go ahead. You`re fine.
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: I`m sorry, Nancy, I couldn`t hear what you said.
GRACE: In the 911, Frank Taaffe, is that Zimmerman screaming?
TAAFFE: Of course it was George. I mean, if you were on the bottom on a rainy night, and you were being beat up MMA (ph) style, of course. You`d be the one yelling help. Why would you yell for help knowing that no one`s going to be there to -- unfortunately, no one was there to help him, but that was definitely George Zimmerman screaming.
GRACE: OK. Frank Taaffe, good friend of George Zimmerman, says it was absolutely George Zimmerman screaming.
Now let`s go out to Daryl Parks, the attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. I`m sure that Parks and Martin`s family is going to insist that it was the young man, Trayvon Martin`s voice, screaming on that 911 call. As you know, when that was played in front of the jury, Trayvon Martin`s mother and others had to get up and leave the courtroom.
Do I have Daryl Parks yet? OK. We`ll be right back with Daryl Parks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: The (EXPLETIVE DELETED) always get away. This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Daryl Parks is with us, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. One question, Mr. Parks. One question. Is that Trayvon Martin screaming?
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN`S FAMILY: Of course it is. And I think the judge had it right. The tape itself speaks for itself, and this jury will be able to use it.
So far in this case today, Nancy, we`ve seen time and time again both the prosecution and defense have played this tape over and over again. When you hear the tape -- but probably most importantly, the other recording that you heard where you go to the motive and the intent of Mr. Zimmerman when he got out of that car.
GRACE: You know, I appreciate that, Mr. Parks. I really do. And as I told Mr. Taaffe, God help me, I`m going to come back to you. I just wanted to hear from you that you believe that that is Trayvon Martin screaming because Taaffe says it`s absolutely Zimmerman.
PARKS: No, without question, it is Trayvon Martin`s voice you hear...
GRACE: OK.
PARKS: ... crying for help, a young voice desperately trying to get help.
GRACE: OK, you know what? Everybody, I`m going to let you be the judge. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like a male.
911 OPERATOR: And you don`t know why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why. I think they`re yelling help, but I don`t know. (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK, does he look hurt?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re sending.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When my aunt went in, that`s when Angela told my aunt that the baby was missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Angela came out of the home. She told me that Elaina was missing.
ANGELA STEINFURTH, ELAINA`S MOTHER: People are pointing fingers at me when they don`t even know what`s going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s guilty of not taking care of that baby like she should have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The baby was injured at one point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While I`m waiting outside, I was talking to Angela. She made it clear that, you know, the baby had a black eye, dried blood and a bump on the head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators combed through the wooded area along the river while dive crews searched the water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No signs of Elaina.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was him and I looking in the pool and the garage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something has to break. Somebody knows something and somebody has to talk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You tell me that a little 18-month-old baby goes missing in the middle of the day from inside the home. They were anywhere from six to eight people adults in the home at that time and nobody saw anything? Hard to believe, is it not? Bombshell tonight, has a mystery witness emerge that claims they see baby Elaina just before she goes missing at a Gas-N-Go with one person and one person only, mommy.
This as video surveillance is seized from a local Walgreens Pharmacy, a secret grand jury meeting once again at the moment when everyone converges in the courtroom for mommy, Angela Steinfurth, to appear, it`s all called off. To Fred Lefebvre, morning host, WSPD. Fred, thank you for being with us. First of all, what happened in court today? Is the case going to a secret grand jury?
LEFEBVRE: The case is going to a grand jury and here in Lucas County where I happened to sit on a grand jury just a couple a months ago, they do it a little differently than they may do in other states. We don`t hear from many witnesses. We hear only from the prosecutor and we hear from the detectives who are looking into the case. That`s it. Then our grand jury decides to indict or not indict, that`s all we do hear in Lucas County.
GRACE: Well, Fred Lefebvre, when I prosecuted for a decade in Inner City Atlanta with a stunningly huge case load, part of my duties, at the beginning, was to present to the grand jury. And actually, it`s very rare in most jurisdictions to bring on a series of witnesses. Detectives are allowed even in court to get around the hearsay rule under course of conduct exception. Therefore, they can tell the grand jury what witnesses, victims, and so forth told them. And therefore explain to the grand jury without bringing in the victims to relive the crime exactly what happened.
Alicia Lawyers (ph), Darryl Cohen, Eric Schwartzreich. Right to you, Darryl Cohen, as you recall, the practice in very big jurisdictions with huge case loads, was to use the detective to come in unless it was a case where you need, you actually needed that victim to come and testify. That`s not unheard of, in fact, it`s very common.
COHEN: Nancy, that`s what normally happened.
GRACE: Yeah.
COHEN: You certainly don`t have defense witnesses who come in. You have a prosecution who spoonfeeds the grand jury, and there`s normally a true bill for an indictment.
GRACE: You say spoonfeed, I say present. You say potato, I say potato. Quit laughing, Schwartzreich. This -- the bottom line is this is nothing nefarious -- don`t worry, Schwartzreich, you`ll have another swing at the ball. Lefebvre, that`s not unusual. That`s the way it is typically done. It`s a rare case when the state brings on everybody in the case. The whole point is to put up a bare-bones case to a grand jury which is typically 20 to 45 people and they go, "Yes, there`s enough for it to go to a real jury." That`s all they`re doing. Is there enough evidence that I have a fat issue to take before a real jury, a petite (ph) jury as it is called, Fred?
LEFEBVRE: And it sounds like they will have enough. I mean, when I sat, I can`t think of one case that we didn`t vote to indict. They`re very careful about what they bring in, in front of us and we had a grand jury of 12. We seated a grand jury of 12 at Lucas County.
GRACE: Fred Lefebvre, joining us, WSPD. So the bottom line then, Schwartzreich, and this is true with most jurisdictions, too, you can either gather preliminary hearing and at that point, that particular, you know, maybe a municipal court judge will bind the case over to the DA`s office or a muni court or a misdemeanor court, or juvenile court, wherever it goes, or you can have a grand jury take control of the case and they make that decision, yes, no?
SCHWARTZREICH: Yes, absolutely. And the grand jury, the feeding frenzy, it`s a buffet for the prosecutor. Lots of ham sandwiches. You know the old saying, we know it. Indict a ham sandwich. Grand jury, secret, no cross examination, and it`s not a judge, it`s by the jurors. They want an indictment, they can get it, they can control it, that`s why they do it. Defense`s worst enemy, prosecutor`s best friend. You`re very aware of that, Nancy.
GRACE: As it should be, since the burden is on the state. And this is nearly a charging tool to get the issue of fact in front of a jury of 12. I`m going to go to Clark Goldband. Clark, what about the mystery witness?
GOLDBAND: We`ve just obtained a police report filed a few days after the baby went missing and there are some bombshells in this report. A witness called law enforcement claiming she saw the baby and the mom just a few hours before Elaina went missing between the hours of 7:00 and 9:45 at a gas station convenience store. Inside the convenience store, she says "The child appeared fine, didn`t speak." Mom was buying honeybuns and fruit punch and she`s positive it was the mom according to the police report because she claims the mom used to work at the gas station. So, Nancy, we were wondering if someone saw the child that day she was reported missing. According to this police report, a witness just may have.
GRACE: OK, Brett Laurice (ph) and I think I`ve got your back, investigative reporter. So an employee, at basically a gas station convenience store, comes forward.
LAURICE (ph): Yes.
GRACE: . and she says she observes mommy, Angela Steinfurth, with the missing baby around some time between I think it was 7:30 and 9:45 or 10:00 A.M. the baby goes missing around 2:00 that we know of.
LAURICE (ph): Yes, absolutely, Nancy. It`s a worker at a Gas-N-Go. And here`s what`s interesting about it is she said, at that time, you were right, it`s between 7:00 and about 9:45 in the morning she said she didn`t notice that the bay was injured. You know, we`ve been talking a lot about the bump on the head, the black eye, the blood around the nose. She didn`t notice that, and when she was questioned by police, and even questioned by some reporters, she said that`s something she definitely would have noticed.
But mommy shows up, gets some grocery, pays for them with her food stamps card, and here`s the sort of the twist to all this, the cameras were down in the gas station. So none of this was caught on camera for police to review but police have that they have interviewed her as a witness.
GRACE: You know, I`m sorry to think that there should be some type of legislation if a business has X number of dollars of revenue that they`ve got to have a surveillance camera for safety purposes, a working surveillance camera, because we would have known so much. We would have known if the black eye story was true. We would have known so much if those surveillance cameras were working.
With me tonight, three special guests, Angela Steinfurth`s father, Richard Schiewe, is with us, Terry Steinfurth, Jr., baby Elaina`s father is with us. Terry Steinfurth, Sr., baby Elaina`s grandfather with us.
Richard Schiewe, I want to know what you make of reports that female inmates may have given statements implicating your daughter that she made a confession behind bars.
SCHIEWE: I heard that but I don`t think it`s true.
GRACE: Have you heard that too?
SCHIEWE: That`s just we`ve been talking to, you know. See, I heard the same thing too. You know, let`s see the proof, let`s see the proof. You know, if you`re going to talk, let`s put proof on the table.
GRACE: Well, I got to tell you something, Mr. Schiewe. Mr. Schiewe, if what the woman said is true, if she really said it, it`s damning to your daughter. On the other hand, Mr. Schiewe, let me see Mr. Schiewe, please. Mr. Schiewe, you got to think, as a prosecutor, long and hard before you put an inmate on the stand because there`s all sorts of pitfalls with that. Number one, for all I know, she may be a bank robber or a killer herself. She may think she`s going get lenient treatment if she makes up a story about something your daughter may or may not have said.
So, I`m with you. You got to be ready to put this inmate on the stand, prove it happened, and then put her through the test of fire on cross examination. With me also.
SCHIEWE: I`ve been saying that all along. I`ve been saying that all along.
GRACE: On the other hand, if this woman inmate does exist and is telling the truth, that`s a torpedo to the defense attorney. Steinfurth, Sr., what do you make of it?
STEINFURTH SR: I`m taking it with a grain of salt until the police can tell me that it`s definitely true or not true. I`m going to leave it though as a rumor.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I go behind bars into the Jodi Arias maximum security jail house armed with nothing but this. With me, the deadliest women in the state of Arizona, one day I`ll never forget. Everyone please join me as I go behind bars again with female inmates, the most dangerous women in Arizona, at Arizona`s Estrella Jail, part 3, June 27th 8:00 P.M. sharp Eastern, HLN.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t about me or anybody else. This is about my granddaughter.
GRACE: Here you see the mom holding the baby. Take a look at this. She is kissing the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get them away from me. I got a restraining order.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are all high strong here. We`re trying not to do (inaudible) keep good hopes up.
GRACE: I don`t care what anybody says, she loved this baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most of the baby girls in East Toledo neighborhood are growing more and more frustrated and desperate hoping and praying that they`ll find answers soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back everyone. Straight out to Dr. Ann Contrucci. She is a physician. Her specialty, pediatrics and she works in the E.R.
Dr. Ann, thank you so much for being with us. All I`ve got is a JD. You`ve got an MD. I need to ask you about what the mommy says. Angela Steinfurth, aged 25, says that she woke up -- where`s Dr. Contrucci -- that she woke up, she looked over, and I guess during the time that she was having a nap, her daughter has a black eye that`s already manifested, blood around the nostrils and a bump on the head, a visible bump on the head. What does that mean?
CONTRUCCI: Well, Nancy, you and I are both moms, what`s the first thing I`m going to do? What happened and we got to go to the doctor. We got to get it checked out.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Contrucci, I think the first time I met you I had raced John David to the E.R. with a fever. Wasn`t it a fever? And I was all strung out when he broken his nose.
CONTRUCCI: No, I think it was Lucy with the arm.
GRACE: OK, right, Lucy. OK, yes, yes. Every time anything goes wrong, I`m like, "Ahhh," and we race, race to the E.R. If I saw a black eye and I didn`t know where it came from, I would completely do a handstand and get them to the E.R.
CONTRUCCI: Well, and you -- also remember what age we`re talking about. We`re talking about a toddler, I mean, a baby. We`re not talking about, you know, the 8 or 10-year old boy or tomboy girl that`s outside, you know, falling out of trees. We`re talking about a baby.
GRACE: What do you make of the fact that according to the mom, there was not only a black eye but blood to the nostrils and a big goose egg on the head? Do you get that from one fall? Can you get all of that from one fall?
CONTRUCCI: It`s certainly possible, you could. You know, we don`t know what happened or.
GRACE: But it sounds so multidirectional. You got a black eye plus a blood on the head plus the bleeding to the nostrils.
CONTRUCCI: I mean, it`s possible but.
GRACE: What`s the possibility she could wander away?
CONTRUCCI: Very unlikely, in an 18-month old. They just don`t -- and I understand this baby has -- had a little bit of a -- some developmental issues, I think, not quite walking and.
GRACE: She can walk well now. The -- Liz (ph).
CONTRUCCI: OK.
GRACE: .pull me that video for walking around on the front porch. I don`t know if you can see this Dr. Ann but she can.
CONTRUCCI: OK.
GRACE: .absolutely walk. And what if someone is holding baby Elaina alive and hiding which I find it hard to believe the mom would not spill the beans and would rather sit behind bars than tell where the baby is. But what does that mean?
CONTRUCCI: Well, in -- first and answer of the first question, it would be very unusual for an 18-month old developmentally to be able to wander away. It`s possible, but it`d be pretty difficult. And then an answer to the second question, you know, if somebody has got her and again, going back to this perception of these potential injuries, you know, my biggest concern is has the baby had some treatment? Has she been taken cared of? Somebody -- has a physician looked at her?
GRACE: Got it. Two, Dr. Seth Meyers, clinical psychologist, joining me out of L.A. Now, according to the mom, she herself was threatened if she tried to take the baby to the hospital or if she called police. What do you make of that?
MEYERS: Well, I mean, I don`t know that we should really take that seriously. I think a good parent, their number one job is to protect their child. And I think that that is what you do no matter what.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do something, speak out, don`t just stand around.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told me that she didn`t have to answer to anybody anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s got -- he had his mouth going when we first came in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Where is 18-month-old baby Elaina? We`re taking your calls. Jackie, Ohio (ph). Hi Jackie (ph), what`s your question.
JACKIE (ph): Hi Nancy. I was just wondering, has the mother given any indication as to where that baby might be?
GRACE: I can answer that one. Everyone has asked and asked and asked. I`m going to throw it to you, Richard Schiewe.
SCHIEWE: No, she hasn`t. She said she does not know where the baby is at. What you need to do, you need to go over there on Federal Street and ask the other people and then I`ll (inaudible) it there. They know where that baby is at. They threaten my daughter. They are the ones that should be being questioned and behind bars, too. It`s not fair that they`re out running around partying, starting fights and everything else. They are the ones that need to be in jail.
GRACE: Also with us tonight, Risa Smith with Justice for Nevaeh, who has been out searching for baby Elaina. Thank you for being with us, Risa. Tell me about the search.
SMITH: Hi, Nancy. Well, we obviously, were -- we`re with everyone else, "Where is baby Elaina?" We have been kind of narrowing our search at the water because we`ve been given just different rumors and things that we`ve been hearing, leads us to the water. So everyday we begin our initial search with calming the mommy and both sides as far as we can go, usually starting at Miami down by silo (ph) and working our way up to Cherry Street Bridge.
We`ll continue doing that. We`ve been on the mouth of Maumee Bay heading out to little tinny islands that lead up to that. Trying to get permission from people that have private property in that area so we can search there as well.
We`re all on the same question "Where is baby Elaina?" We`re doing everything that we can.
GRACE: Risa, you stated that you are searching the Maumee River because of rumors you are hearing, rumors such as what?
SMITH: Well, the initial rumors, I mean, we`ve heard rumors that she was dumped in the river. We heard that she was put in a five-gallon bucket. We`ve heard -- you know, you hear so many things down there. It`s hard to really know what direction to go. But, it seems alike from point A, we have been directed towards the river. There have been searches, obviously. Everybody knows of the river.
So, we just try, to our initial search, we start every morning at 10:00 A.M. We try to get a turn, you know, team on each side trying to get them to cover the river as far as we can go. We have both in the water.
(COMMERCIAL)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We remember, American hero, marine corporal, Justin Kang, just 22, Manitowoc, Wisconsin; Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, National Defense Service Medal, Afghanistan Campaign Medal, parent`s gem and duty, sisters Jolene (ph) and Jane (ph). Justin Kang, American Hero.
UNKNOWN MALE: My daughter was in her care that time as it happened.
UNKNOWN MALE: Angela Steinfurth sobbing in court.
UNKNOWN MALE: (inaudible). Yes, you drop the (inaudible).
UNKNOWN MALE: Angela admitted to knowing baby Elaina suffered a serious physical injury but did not get medical treatment for the child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your call, the Tip Line 1-800-CALLFBI. There is the $10,000 reward in a search for baby Elaina. Sherrie, Wisconsin (ph). Hi Sherrie (ph) what`s your question?
SHERRIE (ph): Hi, God bless you and your twins, Nancy. You are so awesome. My question is, did they look in the backyard?
GRACE: I assume that they did. Fred Lefebvre, what do you know?
LEFEBVRE: Yes, they did search the backyard. They searched the house also on Federal. But as you saw on the pictures that we sent you last week, that backyard was a mess, but they did a overturn everything, moved all that junk out the way, searched through all those bushes and through the garage.
GRACE: As the -- lines Lutonia (ph)? Hi, Lutonia (ph), what`s your question?
LUTONIA (ph): Yes, I wanted to know why wasn`t the father and the boyfriend in jail because someone knows whom, you know, hit that child and gave them -- gave the child those injuries?
GRACE: Number one, the father is not behind bars because he was nowhere near the scene. He and the mother are estranged, he was at his place. She was there with the baby, and out to you, Schiewe, what about the boyfriend?
SCHIEWE: That`s what I`d like to know. What about -- where is he at? Why ain`t he in jail? Why aren`t they questioning him?
GRACE: And of course.
SCHIEWE: (inaudible) to do? What happened to my baby? And that lady that caused her whatever. They knew where that baby is.
GRACE: And last word to you, Terry Steinfurth, Sr.
STEINFURTH SR.: Yes, I don`t know why the boyfriend is not jail. Maybe they`ve got something from the mother that we don`t know.
GRACE: Well, we are told by police he is not a suspect and he has been cooperating. Tonight, our prayers with baby Elaina, wherever she may be. Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
END
