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Nancy Grace
George Zimmerman Murder Trial; Zimmerman Defense Theory Revealed
Aired June 27, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON WEST, ZIMMERMAN DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Are you OK this morning?
RACHEL JEANTEL, FRIEND OF TRAYVON MARTIN: Yes.
WEST: You seem so different than yesterday.
JEANTEL: You listening? (INAUDIBLE)
WEST: Did someone talk with you last night about your demeanor in court yesterday?
JEANTEL: No. I went to sleep.
Creepy-ass cracker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Creepy white cracker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t say that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the words were "creepy-ass cracker."
WEST: Creepy-ass cracker?
JEANTEL: Yes, sir.
DISPATCHER: Are you following him?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, CHARGED WITH MURDER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: OK. We don`t you to do that.
JEANTEL: (INAUDIBLE) and I was kind of (INAUDIBLE)
ZIMMERMAN: Now he`s coming towards me.
JEANTEL: He was stalked.
ZIMMERMAN: (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You knew that he had said to the man "Why you following me."
JEANTEL: Yes, sir.
ZIMMERMAN: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) He`s running.
WEST: How wet grass sounds?
JEANTEL: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The person is dead, laying on the ground!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sucker-punch somebody -- assault this man.
JEANTEL: He just told me he trying to get home, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s someone screaming outside.
911 OPERATOR: Do you think he`s yelling help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: All right. What is your...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to die tonight, mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to die tonight, mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t hear that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
We are live in Florida. A 17-year-old heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. Tonight, all eyes on that Sanford, Florida, courtroom.
Bombshell tonight. In a stunning twist, in the last hours, the defense weaves a new theory, a new theory that 17-year-old high school junior Trayvon Martin is the racist, in this scenario. And even after running in fear for his own life, running from 29-year-old Zimmerman that dark February night, the defense now claims the boy circled back, hid in bushes, and then jumped out to attack George Zimmerman. That is the new theory.
We are live and taking your calls. Straight out to Jean Casarez, joining me from the steps of the courthouse. Jean, what happened?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Rachel Jeantel testified that Trayvon Martin told her on the phone that he was being followed by the suspicious guy very, very closely, and that he was speaking in a whisper to her. So the defense then said, Well, how do you know that Trayvon wasn`t hiding and when George passed by, he jumped out?
GRACE: And isn`t it true that at the very end, toward the end of testimony, on the stand is Jennifer (ph) Lauer, and she says, Jean -- she says the man on top of the fight was wearing a red jacket.
CASAREZ: That`s right, and also that Trayvon`s body or the person`s body on the bottom was face down. That was after he had been shot.
GRACE: Now, that was Selma Mora. And there was a little bit of a problem with her testimony only in the sense that she didn`t speak English. Everything she said had to be through a translator. But she was very clear. I`m talking about Selma Mora, on the stand at the very end of the courtroom day, says the man on top of the fight was George Zimmerman. Is that a yes or no, Jean?
CASAREZ: That`s a yes.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls. I want to go out to Kimberly in Georgia. Hi, Kimberly. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. It`s, like, I don`t understand, why would a man who`s licensed to carry a gun and probably trained to shoot that gun would be carrying his gun, I`m assuming without the safety on -- why would he need to yell for help?
GRACE: You know, that`s an interesting question. And joining me here tonight on behalf of George Zimmerman is a long-time friend of Zimmerman`s, Frank Taaffe. Frank, I`m going to throw that question to you.
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Sure. The Keltec 9 has an extra-long trigger on it, which is almost a safety built into itself. The pull or torque that`s necessary...
GRACE: Wait. A safety built into itself?
TAAFFE: Is a safety built into the trigger. And as John Guy stated in his opening statement, on that particular gun, the Keltec 9, the actual -- there is an internal safety which under optimum conditions, you want to go ahead and not leave it on. So the safety is built into the trigger itself.
GRACE: Isn`t there another safety on there?
TAAFFE: There are two safeties. You`re correct. But the one that`s used the most...
GRACE: And the second safety was not on?
TAAFFE: That`s correct.
GRACE: Taaffe, you know what? I like you. I really do, in a weird way.
TAAFFE: I appreciate that.
GRACE: But Mr. Taaffe, do not try to get it over on me. I know a Keltec 9 has a safety. So don`t try to tell me some internal safety was on but the real safety was off. I don`t...
TAAFFE: John Guy -- these are John Guy`s words. I`m taking it right from the assistant state attorney. It has two safeties.
GRACE: Yes. You are trying to lead us all on that there -- no, I dragged that out of you. Listen, I`m not a dentist, but I can pull a tooth, sir. There was a safety...
TAAFFE: Sometimes without anesthesia.
GRACE: ... an extrinsic safety, and he had it off. So he was out walking his dog, you told me out walking his Rottweiler that night. May I ask you a question?
TAAFFE: Not that night. Yes?
GRACE: He was not walking his dog that night, correct, or was walking his dog?
TAAFFE: No, he was on his way out to Target to pick up groceries for lunch for the week. And lo and behold, he saw Trayvon up in my yard.
GRACE: May I ask you, why did he need a gun, loaded, without the safety on, to what, go to Publix?
TAAFFE: The safety was on. The Keltec 9 -- he was going to Target. The Keltec 9 -- let me reiterate. The Keltec 9 has a safety mechanism built into the trigger itself. These are John Guy`s words. And you can Google it. You can look it up. I`m just sharing what I -- what I heard from John Guy.
GRACE: Frank, the external safety was not on, all right?
TAAFFE: No, the external safety was not on.
GRACE: That`s my question.
TAAFFE: There`s a built-in safety in the trigger. There`s a built-in safety in the trigger. It`s an extra-long pull. Most automatics have a shorter pull on the trigger. The Keltec 9 had an extra-long pull, which is almost -- acts like a safety within the mechanism itself.
GRACE: Mr. Taaffe, let me rephrase my question.
TAAFFE: Yes? OK.
GRACE: Why would your friend, George Zimmerman, have to carry a Keltec 9 with the external safety off, with a live round in the chamber to go to Target?
TAAFFE: He had a concealed weapons permit, which allows him to carry a weapon into certain venues and into not certain venues. So it was his 2nd Amendment right to carry that weapon.
GRACE: Right. I`m very familiar with the Constitution. I`m going to ask you again. Why did he feel he needed to take a gun loaded with live ammo to Target?
TAAFFE: I can`t answer that. You have to ask him that.
GRACE: All right. OK. I thought maybe in your discussions with him, that would have come up. OK...
TAAFFE: I want to share this with you. That`s a good point. Let me bring this up. The night that my home was being burglarized, like I shared with you another evening, he was walking his dog, and he was carrying his Keltec 9 with him that night, too. Why did he carry it with him? You know, he had a concealed weapons permit and he wanted to carry it. That`s his right. He has a permit.
GRACE: OK, you don`t need to keep reiterating that. I heard you. Second verse same as the first. I know it`s his constitutional right. I really don`t want to burn up time talking about the Constitution right now. We`re not talking about his right to bear arms. That was settled back after the Revolutionary War, all right, when we enacted the Constitution and the Bill of Rights was added on. So I`m very familiar with it. He has that right. I`m just wondering, why he needed...
TAAFFE: You know, Nancy...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... live ammo and a Keltec...
TAAFFE: There are a lot of people...
GRACE: ... to go to Target.
TAAFFE: ... that carry guns. I`ve seen women carry guns going into a Publix. So what`s the difference?
GRACE: OK, you know what?
TAAFFE: Where lies the difference?
GRACE: I appreciate that -- because they didn`t gun down a high school junior. That`s the difference, all right?
TAAFFE: It was self-defense. Self-defense. Let`s not talk...
GRACE: OK, Deborah Roberts...
TAAFFE: ... (INAUDIBLE) words "gunned down."
GRACE: ... let me -- yes, he was gunned down. He was unarmed. Zimmerman was armed.
TAAFFE: (INAUDIBLE) self-defense.
GRACE: Well, you know -- I`m glad, actually, that you brought that up because the defense is edging toward the theory that...
TAAFFE: It`s not a theory. I brought this up last year on your show, exactly what happened. He was jumped by Trayvon in that corner of the T, which is the darkest. And he also...
GRACE: That`s not what his own words reveal in his 911 call. That`s not -- he says, Shit, he`s running. Trayvon was running from him.
TAAFFE: OK. Right. And he also said that he lost him. Remember when the 911 operator asks him, Well, George, what`s your address? He said, I don`t want to give it out because I don`t see him. What does that mean to you, "I don`t see him?"
GRACE: It means to me that Zimmerman was still following Trayvon Martin and he followed him until he found him again. That`s what it means.
TAAFFE: He was looking for an address. George Zimmerman got out of his vehicle because the dispatcher needed an address. And in that little T right there, it`s so dark, even Jenna Lauer who was on the stand today, she shared with everybody how dark it is back there.
And another thing, that he could not see the address in front of her townhome because of the angle at which the bush blocked the view of her address. And she said that on the stand today in testimony.
GRACE: Out to Deborah Roberts, Florida News Network. Deborah, what happened in court today?
DEBORAH ROBERTS, FLORIDA NEWS NETWORK: Well, it was a pretty contentious day today, starting off with 19-year-old Rachel Jeantel, Trayvon Martin`s friend, who was on the phone with him right before the fatal shot was fired. It was five-plus hours of testimony from her, quite contentious with defense attorney Don West, still a little bit of an attitude even with the prosecutor, Bernie de la Rionda. But she again -- they just tried to unravel her story about what was on the phone call, what was said, what she experienced, and the fact that she`s told more than a few lies.
GRACE: Now, I want to talk about this. You`re talking about Jeantel on the stand lying. But I`ve got to tell you something, Deborah Roberts. I noticed this when I was a prosecutor. I would ask somebody just an open- ended question, Tell me what happened. This would be when I would be prepping for trial. And they would tell me.
Then I`d start asking them questions. If they added to their story, Deborah, I was not concerned because it may be questions like, Were there Christmas lights up, was there a Christmas tree, did you have on a coat, could you see around this bush? I mean, they would add to their story as I asked questions.
If they changed their story in any way, I would get very concerned. If they elaborated or added to their story, that did not concern me as I was asking questions that elicited additional information.
Jean Casarez, do you believe that Jeantel came across as a liar or just someone that is not sophisticated that added to her story? Or both?
CASAREZ: Both.
GRACE: Yes.
CASAREZ: There were inconsistencies, no question about it. Interview settings had the mother of Trayvon right next to her, which does not produce many times honest and forthright statements. She didn`t want to humiliate, embarrass or intrude into the privacy of the mother. But she was herself, and I think a lot of things she said was the truth -- were the truth.
GRACE: On the stand is Jeantel. She has been the source of a lot of controversy.
Matt Zarrell, the main concern with her testimony is what?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): The main concern is that she left out significant pieces of info, particularly Trayvon Martin saying, Get off, get off, that she did not mention it in her initial speaking with Trayvon Martin`s mother, did not mention it in the letter that she wrote Trayvon Martin`s mother, and did not mention it in the recorded interview she did with Benjamin Crump, the Martin family attorney.
And that`s very significant, Nancy, because the "Get off, get off" shows that Trayvon Martin was trying to fight for his life.
GRACE: You know, Matt Zarrell, I don`t know how many murder victims` families you`ve ever dealt with, but very often, people sugarcoat things to murder victims` families. You know, I did because I didn`t want to hurt them until they had to be hurt, until they had to face the harsh truth. I knew that they were going to be ultimately hurt when they heard the facts.
But I don`t know that I would attack Rachel Jeantel for not telling them every gruesome detail that she knew.
Let`s take a listen to Jeantel on the stand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEST: He confronted him by saying, Why you following me, didn`t he?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ll listen to your answer. You may answer.
JEANTEL: He told me the dude was close to him.
WEST: Right. At that point, he decided to approach this man and say, Why you following me?
JEANTEL: Yes, sir.
WEST: And he could have just run home if he wasn`t there.
JEANTEL: He was already by his house, he told me.
WEST: Of course, you don`t know if he was telling you the truth or not.
JEANTEL: Why he need to lie about that, sir?
WEST: Maybe if he decided to assault George Zimmerman, he didn`t want you to know about it.
JEANTEL: That`s real retarded, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry?
JEANTEL: That`s really retarded to do that, sir. You don`t know the person (INAUDIBLE) not know him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEST: You realized then that you are the last person to have spoken with Trayvon Martin.
JEANTEL: Yes.
WEST: But you did not report it to law enforcement.
JEANTEL: No.
WEST: Did not...
JEANTEL: I thought they were supposed to call you. That`s not what officers do. Do you watch "First 48"?
WEST: I didn`t hear you.
JEANTEL: Do you watch "First 48"? They call the first number that the victim talked to.
WEST: What -- I`m sorry -- "First 48"?
JEANTEL: A show, "First 48." When a victim die, they call the number that the victim called before. And they had -- they didn`t call my number, so -- and they had already got the person, so case closed, I thought.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Sue Moss, New York, Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author, New York. All right, weigh in, Moss.
SUSAN MOSS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: All right, they`re trying to make her into the next Kato Kaelin. Listen, this is a 17-year-old, now a 19-year-old, and she`s being truthful and honest. This is the way she speaks. This is the way she thinks. And I think that she`s refreshing and believable to the court.
The reality is, what they just said in your show a while back, that a long pull is a safety -- a long pull is a long pull. A safety is a safety. That`s absolutely ridiculous! This guy went out with a gun that was loaded without the safety on. That`s the reality.
GRACE: Sherman?
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jean Casarez is there at the scene. She asked you -- you asked her who -- how her testimony came out. And Jean, who`s very conservative reporter and a very accurate reporter, said she got caught lying and making mistakes.
And the problem is that this is not a small claims case. A young man`s life has been taken and another man`s liberty is at stake. You can`t make mistakes and you can`t change your story. And the problem with changing the story, as you indicated before, Nancy, is that that happens a lot. People add things on. But she`s trying to add things on to allow her to be an advocate for the prosecution. That ain`t right.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEST: That`s your name that you signed at the bottom?
JEANTEL: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it`s not actually your name.
JEANTEL: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a name that you made up?
JEANTEL: That`s my nickname.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But your last name isn`t Eugene (ph).
JEANTEL: That`s my mother last name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. So you signed it Diamond Eugene (ph) so as not to use your real name?
JEANTEL: Yes.
WEST: OK. I`ll read the letter then. Can you not read this here?
JEANTEL: Yes.
WEST: What does that say?
JEANTEL: March the 19th, 2012.
WEST: And can you read this at the bottom?
JEANTEL: Thank you.
WEST: And then you signed your name.
JEANTEL: Yes.
WEST: And you can`t read any of the words here?
JEANTEL: Not all of them.
WEST: But you can read typewritten words, just not cursive?
JEANTEL: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, everybody can laugh all they want to that she can`t read cursive or that she has a nickname she goes by that some people may laugh at. This one is Diamond Eugene. You know what? Laugh all you want to. Nobody ever said that a murder trial was a tea party where everybody had perfect manners and spoke perfectly.
That`s not what this is about. This is about the death of a high school junior and whether a 29-year-old is guilty or innocent. That`s what this is about. So just, you know, go laugh into your fist.
We are taking your calls, but I want to get back to Jean Casarez about an issue that I see developing. The defense today, two major strategies, Jean. One of them is to paint the picture that Trayvon Martin, while he`s running away, running from George Zimmerman, somehow decides to circle back on the man that has scared him half to death, and then attack the guy. For what reason? And number two, beginning to paint Trayvon Martin as the racist in this scenario.
CASAREZ: That`s right. And usually, they wait until closing argument, but we heard it today. And I think it`s because Jeantel was just going on and on about what I think the defense is going to work with. And when she said that Trayvon said that George was following him and was really close, I think that that opened the door so they believed the jury could hear that theory.
But that is going to be their theory, it looks like, that Trayvon was hiding, jumped out, and he hit George.
GRACE: And to you, Frank Taaffe, tonight taking the side of George Zimmerman. What evidence is there that would tend to show that Trayvon Martin circled back and hid, waiting for Zimmerman?
TAAFFE: That`s a great question. Jenna Lauer said under direct and cross today that she heard the movement, the sound first. Now, I`m going to coordinate with George`s reenactment with Sanford Police Department.
And remember that he took a voice print analysis, which is like a polygraph, right after this incident. They took him right down to the station. And it showed no deception and no fraud on his part -- actually, no deception.
GRACE: OK. Repeat. What evidence is there that would show Trayvon Martin circled back and jumped out on Zimmerman?
TAAFFE: George was headed back to his vehicle, to his truck. And on the reenactment, he looked over and he saw Trayvon in the darkest part and the gully there, next -- outside of Jenna Lauer`s screen door. And she testified under oath today that she heard the noises or the voices from -- coming from left to right, which would mean from the T to exactly to the spot in front of where the incident took place.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you following him?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, DEFENDANT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. We don`t need you to do that.
ZIMMERMAN: OK.
RACHEL JEANTEL, WITNESS: He said, "Why are you following me for?" And then I heard a hard crack and then "What are you doing around here?"
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know what`s happening. Someone is on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see someone lying on the ground?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And someone has been shot. I don`t know what`s going on.
JEANTEL: And then the phone hung up. The phone shut off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. When the phone shut off, what happened then?
JEANTEL: Then I had called him back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You called Trayvon Martin back?
JEANTEL: Yes. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you able to talk to him again?
JEANTEL: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, god. I mean, they`re looking at the person that`s dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We are live and taking your calls. Straight out to Christine in Arizona.
Hi, what`s your question?
CHRISTINE, CALLER FROM ARIZONA: Hi, Nancy, how are you doing today?
GRACE: Good.
CHRISTINE: It`s more like a question/statement. People carry side arms for one of two reasons. One is to prevent physical harm from happening and the other is to stop physical harm as it`s happening. It`s obvious that Zimmerman had a physical altercation with Trayvon and the state of Florida, what is considered self-defense and what is a proper self-defense.
GRACE: OK, out to you, Matt Zarrell, the Stand Your Ground law is going to be an issue possibly in this case. But in Florida, self-defense is like everywhere else, other than Stand Your Ground, and that is you have the right to use as much force as necessary to defend yourself, and no more.
For instance, Christine in Arizona, you can`t slap me and then I shoot you with an Uzi. That is force. That is excessive force in self-defense. That would not wash with the jury.
Out to you, Matt Zarrell, I`m trying to get down to the nitty-gritty the defense is now claiming that this boy came back and hid, waiting to catch Zimmerman and attacked him. They were also claiming that Trayvon Martin is a racist in this scenario.
All right. Matt, I want to clarify something.
See if you can find this in the 911 call, please, Liz.
In the 911 call from Zimmerman himself, which I think is going to seal the deal in the jury`s mind, Zimmerman says at one point he`s coming toward me. That`s at the very beginning. Then he goes on to say, shit, he`s running. They tell him not to follow the boy and he does. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: Something is wrong with him. Yes. He`s coming to check me out. He`s got something in his hands. I don`t know what his deal is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Just let me know if he does anything, OK?
ZIMMERMAN: Please send an officer over here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we`ve got them on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
ZIMMERMAN: OK. (EXPLETIVE DELETED), he`s running.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s running? Which way is he running?
ZIMMERMAN: Down towards the entrance to the other to the neighborhood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So, Matt, I asked Taaffe, and I get what he`s saying. But what, if anything, is there in the evidence so far that would suggest -- I mean, last night Taaffe and others were arguing that Trayvon Martin had made it all the way to his dad`s condo and then came back out. Now why did he still have the Skittles that he was going to give to his brother? Why? I mean, he never went into that condo and came back out. That doesn`t even make any sense.
So what is there in the evidence, Matt, that would actually show that he circled back on a guy from whom he was afraid?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Well, Nancy, I have to tell you. In watching the testimony and looking at the evidence, I haven`t found one piece of evidence yet that suggests that Trayvon in any way was lying in wait or had planned to ambush George Zimmerman or even planned to attack him. All the testimony I`ve heard is that Trayvon wanted to get away from Zimmerman, was concerned that Zimmerman was following him, and ran to physically get away from him.
If you`re running because you`re afraid of him, why would you turn around and suddenly face him?
GRACE: Joining me right now, along with Frank Taaffe, friend of George Zimmerman, is Jasmine Rand, who was speaking on behalf of the Trayvon Martin camp.
Jasmine, thank you for being with us. Jasmine, where are they getting the theory that Trayvon Martin finally got away from Zimmerman and then came back on him and attacked him?
JASMINE RAND, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN`S FAMILY: The theory comes from George Zimmerman`s very self-serving statement. And apparently Frank Taaffe also believes him. I don`t know that that has any evidentiary value. So let`s go to the DNA evidence. There`s no blood on Trayvon Martin`s hands under his nails and we have to listen closely, or on the cuff of his sleeves.
The defense of little rain, rain, go away theory is ridiculous. Let`s assume for a second that Trayvon Martin did have blood on his hands. It was sprinkling, not a downpour, and his hands were exposed for a maximum of 15 minutes before they were covered with a blanket. We`ve seen photos of George Zimmerman`s head bleeding, so why didn`t the blood wash off of George Zimmerman`s head which was far exposed to the elements more than Trayvon`s fingernails?
And then even if all of the blood washed off of Trayvon Martin`s hands and from underneath his fingernails, it would not come out of the cloth on the sleeves of his cuffs.
GRACE: You know, Mr. Taaffe, back to you. Another thing that was brought up in opening statements. The defense says that they can absolutely show that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor. In other words, on top during that struggle. Because of the way the gunshot residue was found on Trayvon Martin`s hoodie.
Explain how that`s going to show that gunshot residue pattern on his hoodie. How is that going to show that he was the aggressor? That he was attacking Zimmerman?
FRANK TAAFFE, GOOD FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: I`ll answer that question if we go back to the pants with the grass stains on the front, too, on his knees.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I got it. You told me last night that there are grass stains on Trayvon Martin`s knees that show --
TAAFFE: Sure. OK. Well -- and you --
GRACE: In the defense`s mind --
TAAFFE: You concurred with me. And you agreed with me. You said --
GRACE: I said that was going to be a problem.
TAAFFE: OK.
GRACE: But I think there`s a lot of ways --
TAAFFE: And it is a problem. It`s a big problem. Let`s go back to the gunshot.
GRACE: I think that there are a lot of ways that Trayvon Martin could have gotten grass on his knees other than being the attacker in this scenario.
TAAFFE: And what are they? What do you think they are? At that scene?
GRACE: I think --
TAAFFE: What would be in the jury`s mind? In the mind of a jury --
GRACE: Mr. Taaffe, I think that --
TAAFFE: Yes.
GRACE: -- there are many scenarios that could explain grass stains on Trayvon Martin`s knees, and just one of them --
TAAFFE: Right. He was on top of George and mounting him.
GRACE: OK. I`m going to cut your mike.
TAAFFE: He was mounting George.
GRACE: One of them is that during the scuffle that Trayvon Martin was on his knees in the grass. That does not necessarily mean he was the attacker.
TAAFFE: Doing what?
GRACE: All right?
TAAFFE: Doing what?
GRACE: Fighting. Fighting with Zimmerman.
TAAFFE: Right.
GRACE: Yes, right.
TAAFFE: OK.
GRACE: After Zimmerman attacks him.
TAAFFE: He was on top.
GRACE: That doesn`t mean he`s on top.
TAAFFE: Zimmerman never attacked him.
GRACE: How do -- I don`t know that --
TAAFFE: Nancy, the inspector was on the scene.
GRACE: Just so you know, I`m cutting your mike. You keep asking me a question but you don`t want to hear an answer. The answer is that --
TAAFFE: I`m trying to understand it.
GRACE: During the fight, and I`m speculating, just as you are. You asked me other ways he could get grass stains on his knees. During the fight with Zimmerman, he could easily --
TAAFFE: The front.
GRACE: Yes, the front. Your knees are in the front of your body. Not in the back. I get it.
TAAFFE: Right. OK.
GRACE: He could very well have been on his knees in the rain, in the dirt, in the grass, during the fight. That doesn`t make him the attacker. Your scenario is that he`s on top of Zimmerman. I get it. That`s another way he could get grass stains on his knees. But there`s a million ways he could get grass stains on his knees.
TAAFFE: OK.
GRACE: So there. That`s the answer to your question.
TAAFFE: All right.
GRACE: Do you have a follow-up?
TAAFFE: I want to know who the aggressor was. Yes. OK, the aggressor. Let`s go back to your original question. You want --
GRACE: I asked you about the gunshot residue. That was my question to you.
TAAFFE: The gunshot was, according to the medical examiner, in an intermediate range which is six to 12 inches. As he was on top of my friend, George Zimmerman, trying to snuff him out of his life as he`s pounding his head on the pavement, and George is seeing his life flash before his eyes, and what happens is, George reaches up, and the hoodie is extended out.
It is more pronounced around the fabric and it diminishes as the contact makes with the body. And that`s a fact, and you could look it up on the autopsy reports. Intermediate shot by the medical examiner.
GRACE: All right, Taaffe. You`re right. I see how the gunshot residue could be --
TAAFFE: Oh, my god. Whoa. I can`t believe that. Yay, thank you.
GRACE: Could be used by the defense. But I guarantee you that the state is going to come up with another alternate theory. I don`t know what it is yet because tonight I`m just hearing it unfold for the first time. But, I mean, just like the grass stains, he could have gotten that if you slipped on the grass running.
I mean, there are a million ways it could happen. So I`m listening to what you`re saying to determine, will it really prove what you say it proves.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What little life there was at that time did not allow me to see very well what color.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you see anything about the clothing of the person on top?
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSLATOR: The only thing I could say is that it was some sort of a pattern between blacks and reds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are just seeing the testimony from Selma Mora on the stand in the last hour, who says that the man on top of the struggle was wearing black and red. That`s the jacket Zimmerman was wearing. Trayvon Martin was wearing a dark hoodie.
With me now, Daryl Parks, representing Trayvon Martin`s family. Also with me, Frank Taaffe, representing the Zimmerman camp.
Mr. Parks, what does that mean to you, that Mora says the person on top had on red and black?
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN`S FAMILY: Nancy, what it means is that the testimony we`ve heard this week, which has been very consistent with the bigger guy being on top, now we have a witness who is putting the color of jacket that George Zimmerman is wearing on top.
I mean, so now we have a bunch of cumulative evidence and testimony that`s been presented to the court. So we really believe that the prosecution is doing extremely well this week and are excited that we are --
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, Mr. Parks. I`m going to stop you right there. I got your answer. I hear you. Taaffe?
TAAFFE: I concur. You know why? Because George`s statement is consistent. He said after he shot Trayvon, he went and he spread his arms out, because at that point, he didn`t know that Trayvon was dead. That`s why -- and that is consistent with George`s statement and it`s also consistent with this so-called eyewitness in the darkest area of the T.
GRACE: OK. Let me figure out what to say. I think what you`re telling me, Mr. Taaffe, is that Zimmerman was only on top of the struggle when he went back to the dead body to lay the arms out. And that is what Mora saw.
TAAFFE: Exactly, exactly.
GRACE: OK. I got it.
TAAFFE: I concur.
GRACE: Out to -- out to Tom Owen, who conducted a voice analysis on the 911 call, and concluded the screams that you hear in the background are not Zimmerman`s.
Mr. Owen, thank you for being with us, from Owen Forensic Services. He`s joining me out of Atlantic City.
Mr. Owen, how did you conduct that test? How does it work? How can you compare a conversational voice to a scream? And why do you believe that scream came from Trayvon Martin?
TOM OWEN, ANALYZED 911 CALL: Well, basically, it`s a -- it`s a test that I`ve done studies on since 1985. Where you take the -- the regular pitch of a person`s voice and raise it up electronically or physically or they do it themselves. I attempted to get an exemplar of George Zimmerman on three different occasions as late as September, when Jim -- Don West called me and asked me if I would be interested in doing that. But they never came up with the money.
But anyway, it`s -- so what I did, I raised the pitch up to the pitch of the screams electronically. And then I compared George Zimmerman at regular speech, at a third up, a four semi tones up, six semi tones up, which is the speed of the yelling and then I ran it in a biometric program that said George Zimmerman as George Zimmerman, will be known as George Zimmerman. But when it came to the screams, it`s not George Zimmerman.
GRACE: So your analysis is that it`s not Zimmerman. You didn`t go so far as to say it was Trayvon, but you say it`s not Zimmerman, right?
OWEN: That`s correct. I didn`t have the time.
GRACE: Got it.
OWEN: I didn`t have any audio on Trayvon Martin. So I couldn`t say who it was.
GRACE: I got it. With me is Tom Owen from Owen Forensic Services in Atlantic City.
To Dr. Michael Arnall, do you understand the argument that Taaffe is making tonight about the gunshot residue on Trayvon Martin`s hoodie?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, I do.
GRACE: Explain.
ARNALL: There is a cone of powder and soot that comes out of a gun when it`s fired. If the T-shirt and the sweatshirt that do have holes in them were adjacent to the skin when the gun was discharged, the soot and powder particles would be screened off of the body by the fabric. What they`re saying is, that because there is stippling, that is to say, powder particles in a little two-inch by two-inch pattern around the hole --
GRACE: Yes.
ARNALL: -- then the fabric could not have been against the skin at the time the gun was discharged, but that the fabric must have been lying against the barrel of the gun when it was discharged, so that expanding cone of powder and particles put impact upon the skin. They`re saying that that had to have been the two or three or four inches away from the skin to cause that stippling pattern that you have seen on the autopsy.
GRACE: Got it. Dr. Michael Arnall, do you agree with the theory?
ARNALL: When I first read the autopsy report, I couldn`t -- I figured the doctor must have made a mistake because you can`t get stippling through the fabric. When I understood what they`re arguing, I believe that`s the only possible explanation for finding that stippling pattern against the skin.
GRACE: And that explanation is what, Dr. Arnall?
ARNALL: That the fabric must have been two or three or four inches off of the skin when the gun was discharged. And they`re arguing that the only reason the fabric would be off of the skin would be if the individual was on top, and the fabric was passively away from the skin because of gravity.
GRACE: And Dr. Arnall, would you get the same result if Trayvon Martin had been on the bottom, and in the fight, the grappling back and forth, the hoodie was lifted up off the skin at the time of the gunshot wound? That way the skin would not be touching the hoodie -- although the victim would be on the bottom?
ARNALL: It would have to be both the hoodie and the T-shirt underneath. Both those pieces of fabric.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANTEL: Now the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is following him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you following him?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls.
First to you, Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers."
Bethany, I just find it so difficult to fathom that Trayvon Martin is running through the night, talking on the phone to this girl saying, why is this cracker following me? What does he want, and he`s afraid and he`s running and she can hear him breathing and running. Why would he circle back on the guy and assault him?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Nancy, it is inconceivable. A scrawny 17-year-old boy who`s scared out of his mind calls a girl because he`s so scared, says he`s being followed, and then all of a sudden as he`s running away he becomes so emboldened and courageous as to circle back around and jump George Zimmerman?
That is so psychologically inconsistent with a terrorized victim that it`s just -- it`s unbelievable to me. That theory can`t stand.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero Army Private First Class Shane Reiffert, 23, Cattrallville, Michigan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Infantry Badge. Parents Kurt and Kitty. Sister Elizabeth.
Shane Reiffert, American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you need police, fire, medical?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe both, I`m not sure. There`s just someone screaming outside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you think he`s yelling help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, what is your --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gunshots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You just heard gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Out to Leonard in Missouri, hi, Leonard, what`s your question?
LEONARD, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: Yes, good evening, Nancy, nice to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise.
LEONARD: My question is, Mr. Zimmerman had stayed in his car he would not have had to fire his gun and kill a 17-year-old child.
GRACE: Well, you`re right about that. He had already reported what he observed to neighborhood watch.
Out to you, Bethany. What was he thinking?
MARSHALL: Well, I think he had a love for power. You kept asking Mr. Taaffe why was George Zimmerman carrying a weapon? Well, I know why he was carrying a weapon, because it gave him a sense of power over other people. This is the -- this is the profile of a kind of guy who wants to be a policeman, can`t make it on to the force, doesn`t work within a system of law enforcement. And because of that, he never learns to contain his aggression or obey rules and he goes vigilante.
GRACE: Bethany, so much happening by the minute in that courtroom. The case is going so much faster than we imagined.
Everyone, tonight a special good night from California friend, Barbara. She`s the mom to our superstar Brett, our ace director.
Barbara, you`re absolutely stunning.
And happy birthday to one of our superstars, mother of two, Shayzon. Isn`t she beautiful? And beautiful on the inside as well.
Happy birthday, beautiful Shayzon.
Everybody, programming note. Tonight we`re back on the air 11:00 p.m. Eastern followed by "SHOWBIZ" at midnight. Dr. Drew is up next.
Everyone, I`ll also see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
