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Nancy Grace
Zimmerman Interrogation Tapes
Aired July 01, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, CHARGED WITH MURDER: (INAUDIBLE) and I just -- I kept yelling, "Help!" He put his hand on his nose -- on my nose and the other hand on my mouth (INAUDIBLE) (EXPLETIVE DELETED). And I began squirming again because all I could think about was when he was hitting my head against (INAUDIBLE) thought my head was going to explode and I thought I was going to lose consciousness.
(INAUDIBLE) so I could get because he (INAUDIBLE) small portion or my head (INAUDIBLE) so I tried to squirm off the concrete. And when I did that, somebody here opened the door, and I said, Help me, help me. And he said, I`ll call 911. I said, No, help me. I need help.
And I don`t know what they did, but that`s when my jacket moved (ph) up. And I had my firearm on my right side hip (INAUDIBLE) And he saw it. I feel like he saw it. He looked at it, and he said, You`re going to die (INAUDIBLE) (EXPLETIVE DELETED). And he reached for it. He reached (INAUDIBLE) his arm going down to my side. And I grabbed it, and I just grabbed my firearm and I shot him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: You are going to die tonight (EXPLETIVE DELETED)? Well, that`s a note to kick off the trial today!
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
We are live, Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old heads home to his father`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. Tonight, all eyes on that Sanford courtroom.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, a new theory by the defense that 17-year-old high school junior Trayvon Martin jumps out from behind bushes to attack 29-year-old Zimmerman.
And then, in an extremely rare move, Zimmerman caught on video reenacting Trayvon`s death. Tonight, stunning video emerges of Zimmerman telling his version of Trayvon`s shooting death. We have the video.
We are live on the scene and taking your calls. But right now, look at what just happened in the courtroom. In the last moments, the jury sees George Zimmerman basically reenacting the crime. Did he have a lawyer when he did this? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: I passed here and I looked. I didn`t see anything again, and I was walking back to my truck. When I got to right about here, he yelled from behind me (INAUDIBLE) He said, Yo, you got a problem? And I turned around and I said, No, I don`t have a problem, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was he at (INAUDIBLE)
ZIMMERMAN: He was about there, but he was walking towards me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From this direction here?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir. Like I said, I was already past that, so I didn`t see exactly where he came from, but he was about where you were. And I said, I don`t have a problem. And I went to go grab my cell phone, and I had left it in a different pocket. I whipped it out of my pants pocket and I he said, You got a problem now, and then he was here and he punched me in the face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here?
ZIMMERMAN: Around here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
ZIMMERMAN: I don`t remember exactly...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. You are seeing what just went down in the courtroom, and it`s extremely rare that you get a murder defendant reenacting the death with the police without the benefit of a lawyer, and then it`s played back for the jury.
We heard a lot in the last hours in that courtroom. The new defense theory is that Zimmerman gets out of his car, he`s looking for an address. That part`s not new. But then out of the bushes -- what bushes? -- out comes Trayvon Martin. And he jumps out and attacks the man that he seemingly was very afraid of in the last few moments. Now, how does this gibe with the story we just heard from Rachel Jeantel?
Out to you, Jean Casarez, HLN correspondent. What happened?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the jurors were fixated on this, Nancy. They had their notebooks. They took a lot of notes today. But when this video came on, all they did was watch. The pens went down.
GRACE: So I want to talk to now good friend and speaking on the behalf of George Zimmerman. Frank Taaffe is with me. Also with me is Daryl Parks, the attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. Gentlemen, thank you for being with us.
Mr. Taaffe, many people, court watchers, have stated that Zimmerman is changing his story. Weigh in.
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: His story is still consistent the night of the shooting. When he was brought down to Sanford Police Department, he was under voice print analysis. He was consistent the next day, except for a couple of nuances. Even in his written testimony, his story remained consistent that Trayvon attacked him. Trayvon sucker punched him. And we know by the witness testimony of Jenna (ph) last week that the confrontation started from the left, from the T, and worked its way down the sidewalk.
And Mr. Parks will probably go on record. He said last week that the body was nowhere near the sidewalk. It was only three feet away...
GRACE: Hold on.
TAAFFE: ... according to the crime scene photos.
GRACE: I asked you about changing statements. Mr. Parks, weigh in. I can`t -- there you go.
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR MARTIN FAMILY: First and foremost, I think the detectives really questioned George Zimmerman about the fact that he never identified himself to Trayvon Martin. That`s very important because Trayvon was fearful. And because he never identified himself...
GRACE: Sir? Sir? Mr. Parks?
PARKS: Yes?
GRACE: I asked both of you to comment on whether Zimmerman`s statements have changed. Both of you want to misdirect me to another topic. I`m going to throw this now to Steve Helling, staff writer, "People" magazine, while you gentlemen can mull over that question.
Helling, did his statement change? Yes, no. It`s a simple question.
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Yes, his statement did change. It didn`t necessarily change materially, but yes, there are some differences in what he said to start with...
GRACE: What?
HELLING: ... and...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... because I don`t really see a change in his statement. I see he added on. That`s not unusual when you tell your statement over and over. You remember things, you`re asked questions that you didn`t think to bring up the first time. Tell me how it changed. I want to hear this, Helling.
HELLING: Well, you know, obviously, at one point, he was saying that Trayvon came out of the bushes. Another time, he said he was coming out from behind him. Another time, he said that they were kind of going in the same direction.
You know, these are just little changes that I`m not saying that that means he`s lying. I`m saying that that means that the statements are a little bit different from each other.
GRACE: Joining me also is Jonathan Beaton from WDBO. Jonathan, what did you observe? Did Zimmerman`s statements change? Simple yes, no. And if the answer is yes, how did they change?
JONATHAN BEATON, WDBO: Nancy, I`d say it`s not quite as simple as yes or no. It`s not black and white. But for the most part, no, his story hasn`t changed. It`s remained consistent for the past 15, 16 months. And we saw that inside the courtroom today with Officer Singleton and then the other interviews and interrogations that were shown to this jury.
GRACE: Out to you, Matt Zarrell. Is it true that he gave a statement on the 27th, he gave a statement on the night of the incident, he gave a statement on the 29th? All of those were without a lawyer. He continued to cooperate with police. In fact, you know, you practically couldn`t shut him up. He would talk whenever the cops wanted to talk to him.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, and the state made a point of playing audio and video showing him being Mirandized each time. He was interviewed, I believe, four times in the three days of the shooting. The night of the shooting, he was interviewed twice and gave a written statement. The following day is when you see the video reenactment that we showed. And then the following day again, the lead investigator, Chris Serino, interviewed him again, which you`re seeing right now.
GRACE: Let`s take a listen. The jury has just heard this. Now it`s your turn. Here is Zimmerman giving a tour, basically a reenactment, of the night Trayvon Martin was shot dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: I stumbled and I fell down. He pushed me down. Somehow, he got on top of me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the grass or in the street?
ZIMMERMAN: It was more over towards here. I think I was trying to push him away from me. And then he got on top of me somewhere around here. And that`s when I started screaming for help. I started screaming "Help, help" as loud as I could. And then is when he grabbed me -- oh, I tried to sit up, and that`s when he grabbed me by the head and tried to slam my head down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
ZIMMERMAN: No, my body was on the ground. My head was on the sidewalk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to you, Jean Casarez. What is that on the back of his head? Are those just Band-Aids? They look like the Band-Aids I put on John David or Lucy. That must not have been a very bad injury.
CASAREZ: ... physician`s assistant put those bandages on because this was the next day, the 27th, about 5:00 o`clock in the evening.
GRACE: OK, did he or did he not -- I want to see the bandages. They look like Band-Aids, Justin (ph). Did he or did he not break his nose, Jean?
CASAREZ: The physician`s assistant said, based on visual examination, because there were two black eyes, she believed he did break his nose. But because an X-ray was never taken, she couldn`t definitively say it was broken.
GRACE: Because when I look at him in the video, it doesn`t look the way it did the night before. It looks swollen right along the bridge, but it looks like within, like, 24, 48 hours, the swelling has gone, down so I don`t have an answer on that.
All right, out to Daryl Parks and Frank Taaffe. Daryl Parks is the lawyer for Trayvon Martin`s family. Frank Taaffe`s speaking tonight on behalf of George Zimmerman.
All right, Mr. Parks, you say that Zimmerman has changed his statement, and I would like you to tell me how.
PARKS: Nancy, there are a few nuances that he said. For example, as it relates to whether or not his head was hitting the concrete, the words that we heard in the video today was, "a little bit." So the whole thing about him being fearful for his life, we`re now learning that it wasn`t quite as bad as they`ve made it out to be.
GRACE: Well, you know, Mr. Taaffe, it better be darn bad to pull a .9 and shoot someone dead. So weigh in.
TAAFFE: Nancy, George was experiencing trauma. He was having many concussions with each blow to his head. And he was entering into a state of unconsciousness where he was seeing his life flash before him...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa!
TAAFFE: ... he pulled out that Keltec 9...
GRACE: That`s the first time I`ve heard that his life flashed before him.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... Keltec, K-E-L -- Keltec.
TAAFFE: The statute reads, Reasonable, imminent danger or fear of loss of one`s life.
GRACE: Don`t come preaching to me...
TAAFFE: That`s the statute.
GRACE: ... the law! I know the law.
TAAFFE: Well, where is...
GRACE: I asked you...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You just said his life flashed before him. I never heard that.
TAAFFE: Nancy -- Nancy...
GRACE: Did he say that?
TAAFFE: Where is the textbook that states where a certain level has to be reached where each individual feels when their life is going to be taken from them?
GRACE: So that`s not what I...
TAAFFE: Where is it? George...
GRACE: I`m not asking you that. You`re the one that just said his life flashed before...
TAAFFE: George -- George...
GRACE: OK, you know...
TAAFFE: George felt his life was going to be...
GRACE: Did he tell you that?
TAAFFE: ... in imminent danger. That`s why...
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) his life flashed before him?
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: In his statements, he stated that Trayvon was pounding...
GRACE: Did you say...
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: ... his head into the concrete...
GRACE: ... out of consciousness.
TAAFFE: Well, if your head was being banged and you were having mini- 0concussions, at what point are you going to realize that, Hey, I better do something quick or I`m going to be eating my food through a straw the rest of my life?
GRACE: All right, out to you, Matt Zarrell...
PARKS: Nancy, that`s...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, hold on, Mr. Parks. Matt Zarrell, did anything come out in any statement that we have heard -- and there have been several statements -- and I got to give Zimmerman credit for speaking to the cops without lawyering up. But were there any statements where he said he saw himself at kindergarten graduation? What? What? Did he see his life flash in front of him or not? Was he losing consciousness? Did he go in and out of consciousness?
ZARRELL: What he said was -- he never said his life flashed before his eyes. He said that he was worried about losing consciousness. And he did say at one point he screamed, Help me! Help me! He`s killing me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: So Mr. Taaffe, bottom line, he never said that he lost consciousness. That`s not what you just said.
TAAFFE: Nancy...
GRACE: What? What? Who`s that, your poppy (ph)?
TAAFFE: No, it was my chief of staff.
GRACE: You said he lost consciousness. He never said that.
TAAFFE: He was entering into a state of unconsciousness. Nancy, when your skull is being cracked on the cement, you can go into a state of what they call mini-concussions. And I`ve already concurred (sic) this with a physician, and it doesn`t take much because the back of the head does not take much to crack that skull open.
GRACE: Well, I appreciate that, but was his skull cracked open? Because I never heard that.
TAAFFE: He had two lacerations on the back of the head, but at what point...
GRACE: I saw that.
TAAFFE: ... did you have to stop?
GRACE: I saw those...
TAAFFE: At what point -- what point do you stop it?
GRACE: Band-Aids.
TAAFFE: How many more blows -- how many more blows did it take...
GRACE: Sir, I`m not...
TAAFFE: ... to finally finish him off?
GRACE: I`m not arguing the man wasn`t beaten. But when you come on here and you`re tangling with me and you try to tell me a fact that I know for sure did not come into evidence, that`s not OK.
OK, Parks, here`s your chance. Jump in the ring.
PARKS: Without question, Nancy, what happened right before he pulled a gun, he explained it. Trayvon had grabbed his face, had both hands on his face, and they were tousling and wrestling has been the testimony in this case. The imminent fear of death was not there. He had no justification to pull the gun...
TAAFFE: How do you know?
PARKS: ... and shoot this young man.
TAAFFE: You weren`t there.
PARKS: You heard the testimony, Taaffe!
(CROSSTALK)
PARKS: I didn`t have to be there.
TAAFFE: He simply stated -- he simply...
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: You`re not listening, Daryl. He simply stated that his life was in imminent danger. He stated that.
PARKS: That`s not what he said...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Gentlemen, I respect you both, but I can`t make out -- it`s like two wet cats in a barrel. Let`s go back into the courtroom and hear what came out in front of the jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After you shot him, (INAUDIBLE)
ZIMMERMAN: After I shot him, he, like, sat up...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re still in this position here (INAUDIBLE)
ZIMMERMAN: (INAUDIBLE) I shot him. And I didn`t think I hit him because he sat up when he said, Oh, you got me. You got it. You got me, you got it, something like that. So I thought he was just saying, I know you have a gun now, I heard it, I`m giving up. So I don`t (INAUDIBLE) I pushed him off me or he fell off me. Either way, I got on top of him and I pushed his arms apart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
ZIMMERMAN: I don`t remember how I got on top of him. I`m sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s fine.
ZIMMERMAN: But I got on his back (INAUDIBLE) moved his arms apart because when he was repeatedly hitting me in the face and the head, I thought he had something in his hands. So I just -- I moved his hands apart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had him face down then?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes. Face down, and I was on his back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: And so I was walking back through to where my car was, and he jumped out from the bushes and he said, What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) your problem, homie? And I got my cell phone out to call 911 this time, and I said, Hey, man, I don`t have a problem. And he goes, No, now you have a problem. And then he punched me in the nose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are hearing what the jury has just heard in the last hours, the jury hearing several statements by George Zimmerman. All in all -- out to you, Jean Casarez -- how many statements did Zimmerman give?
CASAREZ: OK, let`s start from the beginning. One-and-a-half hours after he killed Trayvon Martin was the first statement to Doris Singleton. Then he provided a written statement. And then after that, after midnight, he was interviewed by the lead investigator, Serino. The next day at 5:00 o`clock, he did the videotaped recreation. And then at the end of February, he did another interview with Serino.
GRACE: Let`s go back in the courtroom, everybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: He was walking, like, in the grassy area, like, up towards -- kind of between these two poles. Like I said, it was raining. And he wasn`t -- he was just leisurely looking at the house. And like I said, my wife -- I had left for the grocery store, and I just felt like was something was off (INAUDIBLE) So I said -- and there`s been a history of break-ins in that building, and I had called previously about this house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
ZIMMERMAN: When the police arrived at this house -- when I called the first time, the windows were open and the door was unlocked. (INAUDIBLE) so I said, you know what, it`s better to just call -- and I kept driving. I passed him and he was -- he kept staring at me and staring around, looking around to see who else was -- I don`t know why he was (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he walk off from there or did he stop there last night?
ZIMMERMAN: He stopped and he looked around. And that`s what threw me off, was it`s raining. And I didn`t understand why somebody would be just talking (ph) in the rain. (INAUDIBLE) like he was trying to run to get out of the rain, and I had never seen him before. Didn`t look like he was exercising.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was he standing (INAUDIBLE) when you stopped?
ZIMMERMAN: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the sidewalk or in the grassy area?
ZIMMERMAN: The grassy area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grassy area? OK. (INAUDIBLE) where the car is?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then you just...
ZIMMERMAN: I drove past him and I went to the clubhouse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
ZIMMERMAN: Up here on the righthand side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What you are seeing right now is what the jury has seen in the last moments. This George Zimmerman reenacting for police without a lawyer what he says happened the night Trayvon Martin was shot dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: ... and still looking around at the houses and stuff. And the dispatcher said, Where did he go? What direction did he go? And I said, I don`t know. I lost -- because he cut down here and made a right. This is Twin Trees Lane. He made a right in there. And they said, Well, what direction did he go? And I said, I don`t know. I can`t see him. And he said, Can you get to somewhere you can see him? And I said, yes, I can. So I backed out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: He`s running.
911 OPERATOR: He`s running? Which way is he running?
ZIMMERMAN: Down towards (INAUDIBLE) the back entrance. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "At this point, I felt the suspect reach for my now exposed firearm and say, You`re going to die tonight, (EXPLETIVE DELETED)."
911 OPERATOR: Did you see what he was wearing?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, a dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants.
Just staring.
I thought he had something in his hands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) face down (INAUDIBLE)
ZIMMERMAN: Yes. Face down, and I was on his back.
He puts his hand on my nose and on my mouth. And he says, You`re going to die tonight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are going to die tonight, [EXPLETIVE DELETED]. That is what came out in court in the last hour. That is what George Zimmerman says Trayvon Martin told him in the dark of the night, in the rain, in the dirt, that he was getting pounded, that he thought he was going to die, so he pulled a gun and shot once. That`s his story. Is it true?
Welcome back, everybody. We are live and taking your calls, positioned at the courthouse. A lot going down in that Florida courtroom. First of all, out to you, Frank Taaffe, friend of George Zimmerman. Daryl Parks, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. Gentlemen, welcome.
First of all, to you, Mr. Taaffe, why does your friend George Zimmerman insist on calling Trayvon Martin -- this is the night of the shooting -- the suspect? The suspect of what? Walking around with a bag of Skittles? A suspect of what?
TAAFFE: It`s just the word he used in prior calls, too, that everybody seemed to be suspect. And you know, either you`re a suspect or you are a victim, and in this case, the suspect turned into a victim.
GRACE: You`re a suspect or you`re a victim. Can`t you just be a kid walking home to your dad`s place? And not be a suspect?
TAAFFE: Sure, you can, Nancy, sure you can, but when you perpetrate a felony of aggravated battery upon another citizen who merely is just looking for an address, we got a problem. It`s a major problem.
GRACE: He was living there for three years. He couldn`t figure out what street he was on?
TAAFFE: Nancy, I`ve lived there six years prior to the shooting, and I didn`t even know the name of that street, because it was almost brand new. It hadn`t even been up -- those homes hadn`t even been built a year or two years the night of the shooting.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Wasn`t he captain of the neighborhood watch? And he did not know, out of three streets, he didn`t know the name of the street.
TAAFFE: Captain? He could have been the general, he could have been the general of neighborhood watch. He didn`t know the name of the street.
GRACE: The bottom line is, no, he didn`t.
All right, and Mr. Parks, a lot of speculation the defense is not putting up a case at all. True or false?
PARKS: I think this is a strategic decision they are going to have to make. However, in this case--
GRACE: I think you already know and you`re not telling me.
PARKS: No, I don`t already know. I mean, the defense -- as you see, you see Mark O`Mara trying to make enough of a case where he can make that strategic decision. He knows if he puts George Zimmerman on the stand, with all his prior inconsistent statements, it will be, in your words, Nancy, a bombshell.
TAAFFE: Nancy, Nancy.
GRACE: Hey, Taaffe.
TAAFFE: Hi. I think Corey (ph) needs to pack up the circus and move the tents back to Jacksonville. While he can.
GRACE: No offense, sir, but I would appreciate it if you would speak when you`re spoken to. Right now, back into the courtroom. Let`s see what these gentlemen are fighting about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Jeff Gold, defense attorney out of Orlando. Also with me, Trent Copeland, defense attorney out of the L.A. jurisdiction. First to you, Jeff Gold. We know now that he has given multiple statements to police without a lawyer. Help or hurt?
JEFF GOLD, ATTORNEY: I think it helped him. I think that O`Mara has made the strategy that he had nothing to hide and all these statements go to show it. And the small differences that we`re pointing out here are very, very insignificant. I think it helps him.
GRACE: Copeland?
COPELAND: I don`t think there`s any question it helps him, Nancy. The truth of the matter is he didn`t even have O`Mara as an attorney at that point. So the reality of it is, he went to the investigators, he gave them a story, he stuck with that story. It`s not as if his story is inconsistent. And listen, don`t hear it from me, don`t hear it from another defense lawyer. Take it from the lead detective, Serino (ph), Singleton. Each of them indicate that George Zimmerman gave a story, it was a consistent story, it rang true. The reality is they did everything at their disposal. They tried to use every avenue to try to get this story to change. They tried to shake him, they tried to use every motivation, every trick they had at their disposal, and they couldn`t change or alter his story. So, Nancy, this isn`t a surprise that this story rings true.
Look, I think everyone can look at this story -- and certainly you can, Nancy, as a victim of violence, you understand this more than anybody -- the truth of the matter is we all feel sympathy for this family. But when you look at the story in its overall context, when we see what we`re seeing that is coming out of court today, George Zimmerman`s story seems to ring true. Everything the cops tried to do to shake that story has not been (inaudible).
GRACE: Let me remind the two of you that sympathy is not an issue at trial. This is a deliberation to reach a verdict that speaks the truth. Regardless of how--
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: -- our sympathy may factor into it. And no, I do not expect--
COPELAND: If you don`t think sympathy factors into this -- then why do you think Trayvon Martin`s family is in that courtroom every single day? You don`t think that that impacts this jury? You are sadly mistaken. Sympathy will --
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: There is a jury instruction that says that the jury shouldn`t listen to sympathy.
GRACE: Just so you know, I`ve already cut your mike. If you wanted an answer, the answer would be because his family wants to be there for him. Do I think it`s a strategy by the defense? Maybe, but why are they there? Because it`s the very last thing they can do for their son, who was shot dead.
COPELAND: And they have every right to be there. They have every right to be there, Nancy, and I have sympathy for them, but I don`t think--
GRACE: I don`t recall asking you a question, but thank you for throwing that into the stew. To Dr. Ramani Durvasula, clinical psychologist and author. Dr. Ramani, speaking of Trayvon Martin`s family being in the court, Zimmerman`s have been sequestered. They are going to be witnesses. Martins have been allowed to stay in the courtroom. You know, Copeland and Gold are right, they are right, and I give them that, that that`s part of the strategy, probably used by both sides to try to get family members to sit in there, to humanize their party, either humanize Zimmerman or humanize Trayvon Martin. But the reality is, Ramani, I know how I felt when my fiance was murdered. There was no way that I would stay away from the courthouse. I could only be in the courtroom for a while during my testimony, but I was there every day, and although I can`t really remember it, it`s all such a blur, apparently my family was there with me. I don`t even recall that, it was just a big haze of pain, but I wouldn`t have missed it. I couldn`t have missed it. So I don`t want to go off on either side motivations about why they`re in the courtroom. Of course they`re there at the courthouse.
DURVASULA: At the end of the day, as you know, Nancy, that the reason you couldn`t remember a lot is this was traumatic. This is traumatic for Trayvon Martin`s family, but this is part of them letting go and mourning the loss of their son. And that`s entirely different than the outcome of this trial. The fact is, it is either going to be a guilty or not guilty verdict. But ultimately, Trayvon Martin`s family incurred a loss. This is part of saying goodbye.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Sanford, Florida. Straight out to Daryl Parks, the attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. Also with us, a friend of George Zimmerman, Frank Taaffe.
Mr. Parks, now that one of our panel lawyers has brought it up, it seems as if everything -- I`ll include you on this, Taaffe -- that everything is calculated. Has it occurred to anybody, Mr. Parks, that Trayvon Martin`s family wants to be in the courtroom, it`s not just a ploy, they want to be there, it`s the last thing they could do for their son?
PARKS: Well, certainly, Nancy. The last thing they can do is to be there, and think about it, it`s been a very tough time from the point of being there during jury selection and hearing so many people talk about things that were so untrue about them, about their son, and then to sit in there, to watch the gentleman who murdered your son on that cold night, and to sit there and hear facts about how your son`s last words were -- to sit there and hear him say, he said he got me, and he spread his arms out. That was very tough.
GRACE: Taaffe, Zimmerman`s family, not all of them but several of them have been sequestered under the law because they`re going to be witnesses. How hard is that on them? They want to be in there with him. They can`t be.
TAAFFE: Well, Judge Nelson, had, at her discretion to allow them in the courtroom or not, and she decided not to, which I felt was very biased. I thought that the mom and dad should be in there. And go back to Sabrina and Tracy, my heart goes out to them. As you know, I am a parent who lost two sons in the last five years. So if this is going to bring them closure, no matter what happened that night, no matter what their decision is, I expect them to finally gain some closure to this.
GRACE: Mr. Taaffe, I`m going to ask you, regarding your communications with Zimmerman, with Zimmerman`s family, do they believe that a defense is going to be mounted, or at the end of the state`s case, the defense is going to simply rest?
TAAFFE: Well, let me answer that quite bluntly. As witnesses in this case, we are not allowed to have any communication with each other, and those are the direct orders. And I`m not going to violate that.
GRACE: Out to you, Jean Casarez, is there a possibility the defense is simply going to rest at the end of the state`s case and why?
CASAREZ: I think there is a definite possibility right there, because if the defense puts on a case of self-defense, then it goes back to the rebuttal of the state to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. But they may rest, saying, Your Honor, there is not even enough evidence in this case for it to go to the jury. They may ask for what`s called a directed verdict.
GRACE: We are taking your calls, out to Selena in New York. Hi, Selena, what`s your question?
SELENA: Hi, Nancy. My question is actually to Frank since he`s best friends with George. In one of the inconsistent statements that your friend made, he said that he was trying to wiggle his way away from the sidewalk because his head was being smashed. Trayvon`s body was not found near that sidewalk. Now, if George was able to wiggle himself and Trayvon Martin on top of him away from that sidewalk, why wouldn`t he be able to push Trayvon Martin off of him?
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: I`ll answer that. First of all, you`re absolutely wrong. Trayvon Martin`s body was found parallel, not less than three feet from the sidewalk. So that`s your first boner right there, OK? The second one is that George was in an inferior position, and he was being straddled MMA style with a 6-foot, 160-pound man on top of him, and George was 5`7. Now, let`s do the reach. How much of a blow do you think you can hit going up? He had to wiggle out because, A, his head was getting pounded, as we know, which are consistent with the photos and the injuries. And B, he was almost entering into a state of unconsciousness.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: This guy looks like he`s up to no good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you following him?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, we don`t need you to do that.
ZIMMERMAN: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think he`s yelling help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is your--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gunshots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you say gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, just one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said, he`s dead?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought you knew he was dead. He kind of slung his head and just shook it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just tell her I shot someone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: How likely is it that a high school junior who was afraid of his aggressor, George Zimmerman, would then when he`s so close to getting to his dad`s house, then circle back and then attack Zimmerman? How likely is that? That`s a question for the jury. Out to John Lucich, former criminal investigator. What about it, John?
LUCICH: I don`t know what`s going through Zimmerman`s head, but certainly there are facts on both side that trouble me. Number one, if Trayvon Martin had a cell phone, which he did, why didn`t he dial 911 and ask for police help? I mean, these are something, Zimmerman appears to have been consistent throughout this whole thing. Remember, both of these kids went through a traumatic event. And anybody who`s gone through something like that --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I don`t think that George Zimmerman at age 29 -- I don`t think at 29, you can still fall into the kid category. All right? He`s out of school, he`s married, he`s had a couple of jobs. You know, he`s the head of the neighborhood watch. He`s not a kid.
LUCICH: Right, so you`re just making my case. Exactly. He had a right to be there just like Trayvon Martin had to be there. You made a comment before about him saying the word "suspect." Well, he suspected something was up when Trayvon Martin was out by the houses and not on the sidewalk like most people would be. And I understand, and I believe that this was a traumatic -- I mean, a total misunderstanding on both partners. I think they misunderstood each other. And a tragedy occurred that can`t be reversed right now, and I feel sorry for both families.
GRACE: Out to Daryl Parks, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. I`d like your response to that.
PARKS: I think it`s tough, Nancy. It`s really tough. At the end of the day, I think we have to remember, Trayvon is a kid and he was scared. And he was new to the area. So him dialing 911 wasn`t really an option. He was trying to get away from this guy and that`s what`s clear. The testimony today was clear that he was running -- he tried to hide because this guy was following him. And he had a creepy feeling that he had described to his friend.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining us out of Philadelphia tonight. Dr. Manion, thank you for being with us.
MANION: My pleasure.
GRACE: Do you believe that his nose was broken? And would he have gone unconscious during this scenario? He never mentioned that in any of his multiple statements. We only got that from Taaffe tonight.
MANION: Well, he did not go unconscious. He said he was beginning to feel dizzy and he was scared. But he basically had a two-centimeter laceration and a .5 centimeter laceration on the back of his head, and that would be consistent with hitting a hard object. It`s like watermelon, dropping it on the concrete. That would cause a crack or a laceration like that. So that is blunt force. In addition, he has, if not a broken nose, a severely injured nose.
GRACE: But Dr. Manion, he didn`t even get a stitch in the back of his head, for Pete`s sake.
MANION: Well, the doctors could have stitched it. They had better techniques with butterfly bandages. If you don`t have to put a stitch in, you don`t want to, because that can become infected and cause more trouble.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Sergeant Edward Bolen, just 25. Shetenengo (ph), New York. Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Parents Janine and Walter, sister Claire, brother Tom. Widow Andrea. Edward Bolen, American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: I tried to sit up, and that`s when he grabbed me by the head and tried to slam my head down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
ZIMMERMAN: My body was on the grass. My head was on the cement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Out to Donna in Kansas. Hi, Donna, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I have a comment. I was listening to George Zimmerman when he and Trayvon met up again at the sidewalk. And whether he said, what are you following me for, or what do you want or whatever, George Zimmerman said he answered him and then he reached for his cell phone. Now, reaching for something in your pocket is an aggressive move, and Trayvon Martin had every right to come at him and start wailing on him if that`s what happened. But I mean, he said out of his own mouth that he started reaching for his cell phone to call 911. He was going in his pocket. It`s dark out there, he had been following him.
GRACE: You know what, Matt Zarrell? Is Donna right? You and I have reviewed all the testimony that just went down over the last hours. I think she`s right. Matt?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, she is, because Zimmerman has been consistent that when Trayvon Martin approached and asked what`s going on, that is when Zimmerman -- when they had the confrontation, Zimmerman does reach in his pocket to grab for the phone, but he does not know where it is, it`s in the wrong pocket, so she is right.
GRACE: Everyone, the courtroom date has just finished. They`ll be back in the courtroom bright and early 0900.
As we go to break, a very special good night from friends of the show Melody, Danny, Sam, and Shannon. Now, aren`t they beautiful? Gentlemen, sorry, I`m not talking about you. Everybody, court is done, but Dr. Drew is up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
