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Nancy Grace
Zimmerman Case Goes to the Jury
Aired July 12, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN GUY, PROSECUTOR: Trayvon Martin may not have the defendant`s blood...
MARK O`MARA, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He`s not guilty of anything but protecting his own life.
GUY: That child had every right to do what he was doing, walking home.
O`MARA: And that is not an unarmed teenager with nothing but Skittles trying to get home.
911 OPERATOR: So you think he`s yelling help?
GUY: And did that child not have the right to defend himself from that strange man?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: All right, what is your...
O`MARA: It was somebody who used the availability of dangerous items, from his fist to the concrete.
GUY: That child had every right to be afraid of a strange man following him first in his car and then on foot.
O`MARA: Let him go back and get back to his life.
GUY: ... but George Zimmerman will forever have Trayvon Martin`s blood on his.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Give him back his life?
We are live, Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old walking home gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch.
Bombshell tonight. We are in a verdict watch here on HLN as cities across America brace for a verdict. Zimmerman breaks into a cold sweat during closing arguments while his lawyer tells the jury to give Zimmerman back his life? What about Trayvon Martin`s life? Who`s going to give that back? That`s my question tonight.
At this hour, the fate of George Zimmerman, and really, the fate of Trayvon Martin, is in the hands of a Florida jury. Again, for those of you just joining us, we are in a verdict watch as we wait for the jury to hand down a verdict.
Let`s go straight in to closing arguments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O`MARA: One more thing from you. I want you to really, really look at the instructions, apply them, and just say he acted in self-defense, find him not guilty, let him go back and get back to his life. Thanks.
The animation, of course, is just that. It`s somewhat made up. I mean, it wasn`t that night. It wasn`t a videotape of -- sure, certainly hope (ph) that there was. It was Zimmerman`s, sorry, hope that there was.
But it does give an idea, a perspective that at least is consistent with the evidence that was presented before you in the case because it does show the probability, if not the exact certainty, that this event started at the T intersection or thereabouts. And it started with a shot to the face, Trayvon Martin against George Zimmerman. And then it traveled down those 30 feet or so.
However they ended up there, we know that when they ended up there that the only one who was injured at all, except for the gunshot, was George Zimmerman, and that the only other injury that Trayvon Martin had on him was what seemed to be a fight injury from a couple of scrapes on the knuckle.
And then it was said -- how many times was it said that Trayvon Martin wasn`t armed? Now, I`ll be held in contempt if I drop this, so I`m not going to do some drama and drop it on the floor and watch it roll around. But that`s cement. That is a sidewalk. And that is not an unarmed teenager with nothing but Skittles trying to get home. That was somebody who used the availability...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you see O`Mara putting down a huge cement block in front of the jury, trying to point out what he claims is a ridiculous argument by the state (sic) that Trayvon Martin was -- the dead guy was armed with a deadly weapon, that weapon being the sidewalk, the cement.
Also, we see a unique comparison made with two figures in the courtroom. Let`s pull that up, Liz, where in front of the jury is placed a silhouette of Trayvon Martin and a silhouette of George Zimmerman. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O`MARA: Let`s talk about other things you have to consider about that event. A couple of graphics, George Zimmerman the way he was, Trayvon Martin the way he was. Now let`s do it life-size.
Trayvon Martin that night was wearing shoes. I have to show you, he had the hoodie on, the top (ph) of the hoodie. This is from the picture that we showed you. It`s not in evidence, just to have you look at it. Don`t even have to believe it`s accurate. Just take a look at it.
Remember how much taller I was than Andrew Gall (ph) when I was standing next to him. And he testified that he was 5-foot-10. And then there`s George Zimmerman and how tall he is. Take a look at him compared (ph) to my eye height.
Relative physical abilities -- that`s what you have to look at and determine in a self-defense case. So if you look at this guy that night -- don`t look at him today. There`s testimony all over the place as to how much weight he gained. It doesn`t really matter. What happens is how he looked that day and how Trayvon Martin looked that day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Zimmerman breaking out in a cold sweat during those closing arguments. Now, that was a pretty good argument by O`Mara, but this one takes the cake. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O`MARA: One more thing from you. I want you to really, really look at those instructions, apply them, and just say he acted in self-defense, find him not guilty, let him go back and get back to his life. Thanks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let him get back to his life. Give him back his life. Give George Zimmerman back his life. To Frank Taaffe, good friend and representative for George Zimmerman.
Give Zimmerman back his life? He`s out on bond, driving through Taco Bell every night, having a chura (ph). You know, long story short, he`s got his life. Who`s going to give life back to Trayvon Martin? I find that, at the very least, a very poor choice of words, Mr. Taaffe.
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Yes. Well, I`m going to give you my best John Guy. It was a forcible felony! Pretty dramatic today, Nancy, wouldn`t you say? Every time he looked at that jury, he was like Charlie Bronson...
GRACE: Are you not answering again?
TAAFFE: ... and Chuck Norris all in one. Can you believe that man took that young boy`s life! Whoa! Where you been for the whole trial, John Guy? And I`m going to tell you something. That cement was an extension of the body. And there`s case law -- you`re a lawyer. You can look it up. And because it was an extension of the body, it was used as a weapon. And that was very important that he put the cement in front of the jury today.
GRACE: It was a stretch, and the state knows it, which is why they backed off of aggravated assault. Aggravated assault is with a deadly weapon. Bottom line here, with the cement...
TAAFFE: Forcible felony, Nancy.
GRACE: Typically...
TAAFFE: Forcible felony.
GRACE: ... it is something held in your hand, like a knife, like a gun.
TAAFFE: Nancy, that`s a great question.
GRACE: Even your fist can be a weapon.
TAAFFE: Let me answer that, Nancy. Here`s the deal, OK?
GRACE: Yes, I don`t even know what you`re talking about. I asked you...
TAAFFE: I`m doing John Guy!
GRACE: ... about screaming...
TAAFFE: I`m doing John Guy!
GRACE: ... they`re giving back Zimmerman his life.
Unleash the lawyers, Eric Schwartzreich, Trent Copeland (ph), Eric joining me out of the Florida jurisdiction, Trent out of L.A.
All right, out to you, Schwartzreich. Give Zimmerman back his life? What about Trayvon Martin?
ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Grace, no matter what happened, two people lost their lives. And it`s unfortunate. Trayvon Martin is dead. But no matter what happens...
GRACE: Who`s the second person that lost their life?
SCHWARTZREICH: You know, Grace, you`re about as subtle as a flying brick. The point of it is, is that George Zimmerman, no matter what happens in this case...
GRACE: OK, take him down.
SCHWARTZREICH: No matter...
GRACE: Now. Now. All right, Copeland, your turn.
TRENT COPELAND, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, Nancy, the bottom line is -- you know, I would agree, and I think this was an unforced error. I don`t think that those were the appropriate words that Mark O`Mara used.
I think, look, you have to have some degree of compassion. You got to remember these parents are in the courtroom. These parents have been through a lot. And I think anybody and everybody has some compassion for them.
But the truth of the matter is, look, the prosecutor fell flat on their face in terms of trying to portray George Zimmerman as this evil, wicked man filled with malice. It just wasn`t there. So second degree murder doesn`t work in this case. There just simply is not the kind of evidence that would support that.
And look, I went on several shows over a year ago with Mr. Taaffe and I argued vociferously against Mr. Taaffe on behalf of the family of Trayvon Martin in terms of the arguments that Trayvon Martin was not the aggressor in this case.
But after looking at all the evidence, Nancy, over the course of the last year, I`ve gone to the other side. And it hasn`t been an easy, easy switch. But the truth is, it`s only the evidence in this case that matters. Passion, emotion, all of it, take it out of this case, look at the evidence...
GRACE: Stop. Stop, preacher!
COPELAND: ... look at the facts for what they are. And the truth is that George Zimmerman is not guilty.
GRACE: Repeat. Stop! You`ve been going on now for about a minute- and-a-half. I want to get back to something you just said about Trayvon Martin not being the aggressor or being the aggressor.
See, if you just look at the physical fight between the two of them, and you see Trayvon Martin at some juncture is on the top -- and Taaffe, I agree with you on that. I agree with you that Martin was on the top at some juncture.
TAAFFE: Thank you.
GRACE: But the reality is, you can`t just...
TAAFFE: You -- you and witness number 6!
GRACE: ... look at the fight that ensued. You have to look at this - - you can`t look at it in a bubble. It didn`t just start with a fight, the physical confrontation. The incident...
COPELAND: But the problem -- Nancy, that`s the problem, that...
GRACE: ... started with Zimmerman following him...
COPELAND: ... no one knows when the fight started.
GRACE: ... with a weapon. I`m not through, Copeland.
COPELAND: Nancy, that`s a legal -- Nancy...
GRACE: I let you drag on...
COPELAND: That`s a legal issue.
GRACE: Don`t make me cut your mike, too, please. I don`t want to do that.
TAAFFE: No, he`s -- no, he`s right!
GRACE: But what I`m saying is...
TAAFFE: Let him talk!
GRACE: ... this whole thing started...
TAAFFE: Let him talk! He`s right!
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: He`s legally entitled to follow him with a weapon, Nancy.
TAAFFE: Cut my mike! Let him talk!
COPELAND: It`s not an issue.
TAAFFE: Thank you.
GRACE: You through?
TAAFFE: You can cut my mike. Let him talk. I brought him over from the dark side!
GRACE: Not you, Taaffe.
TAAFFE: He`s coming -- he`s coming on over...
GRACE: Come on, Copeland.
TAAFFE: Come on over! Come on over!
GRACE: I mean it, Taaffe. Taaffe...
TAAFFE: OK? Come on over!
GRACE: Taaffe, stop. Are you through, Copeland?
COPELAND: Look, I think -- look -- look -- well, I`m through for now, Nancy.
GRACE: Finish up.
COPELAND: If you want to understand in terms of what the facts are...
GRACE: Good. Then be quiet for one moment.
COPELAND: ... it`s not illegal to follow -- it`s not illegal to carry a weapon...
GRACE: You already said that.
COPELAND: (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: You already said that.
COPELAND: Those are the legal facts.
GRACE: OK...
COPELAND: You`re suggesting that...
TAAFFE: You know, let -- let...
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: I want to -- I want to address a question. Who was the aggressor?
GRACE: Let`s go back into the courtroom now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O`MARA: Unfortunately, you know, there was some anger and hostility and ill will and spite maybe that night. It just had nothing to do with George Zimmerman. Well, that`s not true. It had something to do with George Zimmerman. He was the victim of it because you can`t look at those pictures and say that what was visited upon George Zimmerman was not evidence of ill will, spite open hatred.
Had Trayvon Martin been shot through the hip and survived, what do you think he would have been charged with, aggravated battery, two counts?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUY: Was he just casually referring to a perfect stranger by saying f-ing punks?
O`MARA: Mr. Guy screaming (ph) (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks. Del La Rionda screamed (EXPLETIVE DELETED) George Zimmerman didn`t scream on that call.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks.
O`MARA: Seriously? Seriously?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks. With his (INAUDIBLE) f-ing punks!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN. Let`s go straight back into the courtroom, closing arguments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUY: Trayvon Martin may not have the defendant`s blood on his hands, but George Zimmerman will forever have Trayvon Martin`s blood on his -- forever.
Let me give you one more old saying, maybe the most important one you`re going to hear. And that is to the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe the truth. On behalf of the state of Florida, I submit to you that Trayvon Benjamin Martin is entitled to the truth, and it didn`t come from the defendant`s mouth. It didn`t. He told so many lies. That`s why we`re here.
By the end of the night, that is what was in Trayvon Martin`s heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, we are live in Florida and taking your calls.
Out to Jonathan Beaton, WDBO, also in the courtroom all day today. How was the jury responding to these stunning closing arguments?
JONATHAN BEATON, WDBO: Well, they really heard two different styles, Nancy. They heard from Mark O`Mara, who almost came across as an academic, a sort of professor teaching a civics class. And at one point, I think when he hit the three-hour mark, they almost looked like they were getting a little bit bored.
And then they heard from John Guy with the state`s rebuttal, and he was much more emotional, fiery, passionate.
GRACE: Wait a minute!
BEATON: And he seemed to really grab their attention...
GRACE: Beaton, did you say somebody looked bored? Who could look bored in the middle of a murder two trial?
BEATON: Nancy, once he hit that three-hour mark, note taking ceased, and for the most part, the jurors, even though they were attentive, a few of them were looking down. And they just didn`t seem quite as engaged at the -- as they were at the beginning of Mark O`Mara`s closing argument.
GRACE: Out to Michael Christian, reporter and producer. Michael, what`s interesting about this is the entire incident, the timeline of what happened that night, cannot be judged just on the fight itself because under the law, the jury has got to look at what preceded the fight. They`ve got to figure out who was the aggressor, not who got the best in the fight, not who won the fight, who was the aggressor because you can only use self-defense if you are not the aggressor.
So what you`ve got here is Zimmerman, for whatever reason, with or without malice in his heart, following Trayvon Martin for whatever reason he was following him. Be it good intent, bad intent, he was following him. The fight ensued.
You can`t just look at the fight in a bubble.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, REPORTER AND PRODUCER: No, that`s true, Nancy. And we know that he had been advised by his supervisor, by the person he spoke to on the phone, not to follow him. So that`s certainly something that you have to weigh in here.
You know, one of the legacies of the O.J. Simpson murder trial is the phrase that a trial is a search for the truth. And that`s so true, but the flip side of that is, just because that`s true, at the end of the trial, we don`t necessarily know what the truth is.
This is such a gray area. Some trials are so cut and dried, but from what we`ve heard during this case, we just don`t know a lot of things, and we still won`t even after this trial ends.
GRACE: You know what, Michael Christian? You`ve covered a lot of cases. I`ve tried a lot of cases. Long story short, if you don`t think you know what happened, then your duty is to acquit.
CHRISTIAN: That`s true.
GRACE: Now, I think I know what happened here. I think Zimmerman followed him, they got into a fight, and he pulled his gun and he shot the boy. That`s what I think happened. To me, that is at the very least murder two.
But if there is a lingering doubt in this jury`s mind as to what happened, they`re bound to acquit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O`MARA: It had something to do with George Zimmerman. He was the victim of it.
GUY: Trayvon Martin may not have the defendant`s blood on his hands, but George Zimmerman will forever have Trayvon Martin`s blood on his.
O`MARA: What was visited (ph) upon George Zimmerman was not evidence of ill will, spite and hatred.
GUY: This isn`t a complicated case. It`s a common sense case, a case about self-denial, George Zimmerman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN. The jury has the case. They are deliberating.
Out to Daryl Parks, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. This must be gut-wrenching, this moment right now for his parents, his mother and father. They`ve been there every single day. Now it`s out of their hands. There`s nothing they can do except wait on the jury, Mr. Parks.
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR MARTIN FAMILY: Good afternoon -- good evening, Nancy. The family of Trayvon Martin finds themself on the brink of really finding out whether or not this system can hold the killer of their son liable for his death. And so they remain very prayerful right now in a very, very tough time for them. But they have endured to this point and are committed to seeing it through.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O`MARA: The neighborhood watch cop wannabe, crazy (ph) liar (ph). They may want you to assume that. Don`t assume it. Don`t presume it. Don`t connect dots. Don`t fill in the blanks with anything.
The animation, of course, is just that. It`s somewhat made up.
Assumptions presume a lack of evidence.
An assumption, I agree.
Be very vigilant you`re not making the assumptions that help you decide the case.
A couple of assumptions.
GUY: They`re little animations, the cartoon...
O`MARA: Again, there are some assumptions in this animation.
GUY: That child had every right to be afraid of a strange man following him. Did that child not have the right to defend himself from that strange man?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are in a verdict watch here at HLN, and we will bring you the verdict as soon as the jury hands it down. A jury of six women -- five of them are mothers, five out of six are mothers -- are deciding the fate of George Zimmerman, charged with murder two in the shooting death of a high school junior, unarmed, Trayvon Martin.
Now, something very unusual happened today in closing arguments. This piece of evidence was disallowed during the case in chief and was allowed as a demonstrative piece of evidence in closing argument. Take a look at this animation, is what they`re calling it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O`MARA: (INAUDIBLE) but first, there`s the shot to the nose, we contend. Number one right there is where the flashlight is found, George`s small flashlight. And it`s key. We didn`t have any movement except to get them to the spot of the eventual shooting because we don`t really know what happened, although George did -- George Zimmerman did say that he tried to push him off and tried to push him...
911 OPERATOR: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And is it a male or a female?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like a male.
911 OPERATOR: And you don`t know why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why. I think they`ll yelling help, but I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Look at this. This is extremely unusual, actually, what you`re seeing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: You just heard gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: How many?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.
O`MARA: (INAUDIBLE) section. But first, there`s the shot to the nose, we contend. Number one, right there, is where the flashlight is found. George`s small flashlight is key.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, the reason that this is very rarely used in court -- and I`m very surprised, actually, that it was admitted even in closing statement -- is because this is basically a movie of sorts of what the defense contends happened. And as you hear them say -- they kept saying, We contend, we contend, we contend -- I have never seen an animation used like this for this reason in court.
Out to Daryl Parks, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s parents. What did you make of this?
PARKS: Nancy, that demonstrative evidence was very, very misleading. First of all, remember, the guy who created it actually is a marketing guy. He`s not a person who deals with dynamics of the body. He`s not an engineer. And it was very misleading.
If you think about what we saw, he could not explain how he shows the initial punch and then it shows him going to the last spot where the -- where Trayvon`s body was ultimately found. There are a lot of missing gaps in here.
Normally, demonstrative evidence is supposed to assist the trier of fact in coming to their conclusions. Well, this particular demonstrative evidence, we contend, was very misleading, and we`re very, very sorry that the court allowed it to be used even for demonstrative purposes.
GRACE: Well, one thing that I was hung up on, Mr. Parks, is that if it`s not admissible as evidence, then why -- you can`t show it to the jury during the case in chief, was the judge`s ruling, but it was then allowed to be shown to the jury in closing argument.
But everybody, take a listen to this argument made. Everybody, for those of you just joining us, we are in a verdict watch here at HLN. We`re waiting for a jury to hand down the fate of George Zimmerman. As you know, the neighborhood watch captain guns down a 17-year-old unarmed high school junior.
Take a listen to closing argument.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUY: Do you think for a second that if Trayvon Martin had seen that gun ever, there`d be a gunshot at 90 degrees in the center of his chest? Do you think that? I mean, Mr. Staypuff (ph), Mr. Softy was going to be able to get a shot directly through the center of his chest, with Trayvon Martin knowing that gun was there, fighting for his life? Do you think that?
Why was it so important to say he spread his arms out? Because he had to make Trayvon Martin menacing, violent, threatening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, he`s bringing up a very good question. Out to you, Frank Taaffe. How is it that you claim your guy Zimmerman is so out of shape, he can`t even shadow box because, quote, "the shadow might win."
TAAFFE: That`s all he did...
GRACE: How is it that a guy...
TAAFFE: ... was shadow box a heavy bag.
GRACE: If I could just get out my question, Taaffe! How is it that he`s on the ground, he`s getting pummeled, as you said earlier, his life is flashing before him, but somehow, he gets his gun, a .9-millimeter loaded Keltec and perfectly shoots Trayvon in one shot straight through the heart?
How is it that somebody that`s that out of shape manages, in the midst of that beating you claim Zimmerman took, get his gun out and fire the perfect shot into the heart of the high school junior? How did that happen?
TAAFFE: Easily. He was experiencing trauma, and in a life-and-death situation, your brain goes into survival mode. That`s why, and that`s how it happened. Bottom line, he was getting the crap knocked out of him, and lo and behold, up comes his jacket, exposes the Keltec 9 -- and you know, Nancy, you brought up a good point.
You said earlier that an aggressor cannot claim self-defense. And I think you might want to revisit that because that`s not true. If I come up to you and I could bombard you with a bunch of racial slurs, and guess what, I don`t do anything to you, and yet you don`t do anything to me, if you hit me and you commit a forcible felony, aggravated battery, broken nose, aggravated assault, rape, attempted murder, it`s called a forcible felony in this state -- and if you fracture me and you injury me, I can use justifiable deadly force on you because I am in imminent fear of the loss of my life.
It says "reasonably," and that night, George, I can almost assure you, felt that his life was going -- and a couple more hits to that concrete -- what you saw in court -- and it can be used as a weapon because there`s case law in California that states, and I think in the state of Florida here, too...
GRACE: Whoa!
TAAFFE: ... where the -- where the -- where the cement is used...
GRACE: They had to dig up California law to make a point in Florida?
Out to Matt Zarrell, our producer on the story. Matt, you know, you got to dig -- you`re digging deep when you can`t pull up law in your jurisdiction to support something.
And also, the scenario that Frank Taaffe just laid out is not the scenario that has been pointed out in the courtroom. There`s something called excessive force. For instance, if I slap you, Matt, you can`t shoot me with an Uzi in self-defense. So if Trayvon Martin had felt he was being pursued by a stranger, punched him in the nose, that is not justification for him to pull a Keltec and gun him down and let him die.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy. The bone of contention, the biggest point that both sides are trying to make is the state wants the jurors to focus on the beginning to the end. The defense only wants the jury to focus on the confrontation itself.
And the state did a great job of playing into that. John Guy talked about how every child`s worst nightmare is to be followed on the way home in the dark by a stranger, playing into the five mothers on that jury.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are in a verdict watch here at HLN, waiting for a jury to hand down a verdict in the case of Florida versus George Zimmerman, Zimmerman charged with murder two in the shooting death of an unarmed teen, Trayvon Martin. At this hour, cities across the country braced for civil unrest at the announcement of the verdict.
We are live and taking your calls. First I want to go out to Susan Constantine, jury consultant, body language expert, who has also been in the courtroom day in, day out. How`s the jury responding to the closing arguments, Susan?
SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, from the very beginning with Mark O`Mara -- when they first came out, I could tell that there was a lot of jury fatigue. You know, they were kind of laid back, rested, kind of tuning out.
Mark O`Mara, you know, at the very beginning, I think that they -- he kind of lost their attention. They kind of pepped up a little bit during the second half, you know, after break.
But overall, you know they`ve kind of checked out. I really think, Nancy, that most of them -- they`re just ready -- were ready to go into deliberations. And they were ready. They were tired, fatigued. They didn`t take any notes. They were pretty much checked out.
And so, you know, they`ve been in there three weeks or now -- or -- longer -- they`ve been in there for three weeks. They were just ready to get going.
GRACE: Yes. And another thing that was surprising is that they asked for an entire list -- they sent out a question wanting the whole list of all the exhibits, and they wanted the exhibits. And I was very surprised that the state and the defense and the judge didn`t have that exhibit list and the exhibits ready. That should have been ready.
In most jurisdictions, the evidence goes out with the jury when they go out to deliberate. That evidence goes with them, as it should. There`s well over 200 exhibits here.
To Eris Huemer, Dr. Eris, psychotherapist joining me out of LA. I`d like for you to weigh in from your analysis.
ERIS HUEMER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, as far as it being a woman jury, and all-women jury, and five of them being mothers, I think that these women can help on both sides. I think that they`re hoping that these women can empathize that Trayvon Martin could be their son, and then they could also look and hope that Zimmerman was there to defend them. So I think that these women and this jury could definitely benefit both sides.
GRACE: Out to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist and toxicologist. I got to tell you something, Dr. Morrone. I put so much emphasis on what the medical examiners have to say, and when Dr. Bao testified for the state, it was a dismal failure. Then when you had on -- DiMaio came on with the defense, he was great.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Dr. DiMaio is a teacher par excellence, and if there`s one thing you need to do with forensic evidence and science it`s break it down for the jury.
Dr. Bao had some problems where he said he didn`t know too much. He had simple yes and no answers. And Dr. DiMaio took the opportunity to explain concepts. That concept where he used powder burns and compared it to a garden hose spraying water, it made sense. Lights went off in people`s heads.
And those are the elements that they`re going to remember. They`re not going to remember anybody screaming and yelling, Liar, liar, liar. But Dr. DiMaio pulled it off. How much is the forensic evidence going to weigh with the jury? Let`s see how they balance emotion and forensic science.
GRACE: Well, you`re right about that experiment, that demonstration he did in comparing it to a water hose. And we`re talking about comparing gunshot powder residue.
And it was really only then, after DiMaio testified for the defense, that the theory began taking flesh in front of the jury that Trayvon Martin had to have been leaning forward at the time of the shooting, which gave credence to the defense argument that Trayvon Martin was on top leaning forward because of the residue on his skin and his shirt.
The shirt was away from the skin at the time of the shooting. That can only have happened if he were leaning forward. So this is where that goes. That shows that Trayvon Martin was on top at one point during the fight.
But again, you can`t look at it in a bubble. You have to see who was the original aggressor. Back to the medical examiners. DiMaio came up with that and blew out the courtroom. But take a listen to Dr. Bao when he was on the stand for the state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SHIPING BAO, ASSOC. MEDICAL EXAMINER: I do not have any recall. I do not have any memory of the day of autopsy. I do not remember anything. Zero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can the witness please...
BAO: Why I cannot remember anything on the day of autopsy and other people can remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Whoa! That lawyer did not like that answer.
Out to the lines. Fatma in Utah. Hi, dear. What`s your question? Listening for a question. Are you there, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: Yes. What is your question, quickly?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, my question is, like (INAUDIBLE) I`ve been watching. I always see -- yes, I am. Hello?
GRACE: Yes, you`re listening to your TV, ma`am. You need to cut the TV off and just give me the question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. My question is, like, when the boy was taken to the morgue, did he have any scratch on him or any marks?
GRACE: Did Trayvon Martin have scratches or marks on him? Is that your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: Trayvon Martin did not have bruising on his knuckles, but the only way you could really have been able to tell that -- because he died quickly after, you wouldn`t be able to see a regular bruise -- you would have had to slice open the skin on his knuckles and hands to see if there were -- there`s bruising underneath. And the medical examiner never did that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Cities all across the country bracing for a verdict in the George Zimmerman murder two trial. Out to you, Frank Taaffe. You`re a friend of Zimmerman`s. Do you believe that this jury is feeling public pressure?
TAAFFE: Absolutely. And my wish at the end, when the verdict is reached, in all sincerity and earnestness, is that one side`s going to be happy and another side`s not going to be happy. We need to maintain peace, law and civility, and to know that the system did work. That is my hope and prayer for everybody as we move forward, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, my hope and prayer is for a verdict that speaks the truth, and then regardless of that verdict, that we respect the verdict because we never want a jury to bow to public pressure on either side. This must be a verdict that they reach with a clear conscience.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero army specialist Shannon Chihuahua (ph), 25, Thomasville, Georgia, Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal, National Defense Service Medal, parents Sebastian (ph) and Denise (ph), wife Kristin (ph), daughters Sophia (ph) and Annabelle (ph). Shannon Chihuahua. American hero.
And now back to the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin murder two trial. The jury has gone home? They deliberated only three hours, 33 minutes. Why did they go home, Jonathan Beaton?
BEATON: Well, Nancy, I think it`s because they want to do a good job. I mean, we`ve seen that with this jury. They have been attentive. They have been engaged. And it`s one of the reasons I think they asked to see the evidence numbered and defined today.
GRACE: Jonathan, this is a jury that doesn`t want to take breaks. They want to eat while they work, blah, blah, blah. Why suddenly do they want to go home right after they start deliberations? They had hardly gotten back there, had a Diet Coke, elected a foreway (ph), and boom, they want to go home?
BEATON: Nancy, I think they want to review the evidence. They want to take their time. They don`t want to come back after two hours with a decision that may not be the right one. I think they understand how important this case is and how many lives it affects.
GRACE: OK, you know, that`s a non sequitur. It doesn`t follow, Michael Christian, to say they don`t want to reach a fast verdict but that they wanted to go home. That doesn`t make sense.
CHRISTIAN: Well, you remember Nancy, they`re not actually going home. They`re going back to the hotel because they`re sequestered. I think that they will sleep on it tonight...
GRACE: OK, fine, they`re going to their hotel.
CHRISTIAN: Right. I think...
GRACE: You win. But why didn`t they keep deliberating?
CHRISTIAN: I think they`ll sleep on it tonight. You know, a lot of times, you see juries go late. They go late. They don`t make a decision. The next day, they have it in 20 minutes. That may happen tomorrow.
GRACE: Well, I`m hoping.
Everyone, as we go to break, a special happy birthday to a friend of the show, Jesse Evans (ph), loves pop, R&B, bluegrass, model railroading, because of his father, a railroad engineer. Happy birthday, Jesse.
Everyone, the courtroom day is over. The jury has gone home and gone to bed. "DR. DREW" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. We hope for a verdict that speaks the truth. Until tomorrow night, good night, friend.
END
