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Nancy Grace

Victim`s Father Testifies in Murder Trial

Aired July 31, 2013 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trey Zwicker was a good kid, 14.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tale of two innocent victims.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trey Zwicker was afraid of the dark, and his body was found in a dark ditch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We looked down and yelled out, Ms. Warner (ph), there`s a body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I look over there and know that was my boy laying there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Face down on the bank of the creek.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where he was brutally murdered by Josh Gouker and Josh Young.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No evidence that Joshua Young committed this crime.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His skull bashed open, his head and neck having been struck multiple times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See that there was head trauma.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: House where Josh Gouker ruled with an iron fist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gouker manipulated all of that. It wasn`t Joshua Young.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Josh Gouker is a monster and a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most definitely, I said yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what Gouker says. I`m not going to be a model citizen to any (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not his trial. This is the trial of Josh Young.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was set up by his father.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wasn`t really used to Joshua. He was just a different person.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joshua is not guilty of murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will ask you to find him guilty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for joining us.

A 14-year-old honor student brutally beaten to death, found face down, covered in blood in a dark ditch. A father says, I didn`t do it, but I know who did. He points the finger at his own 15-year-old son, accusing him of the murder until the father changes his story, confessing to the murder himself. He now claims his son, Joshua Young, a 15-year-old straight-A student, has nothing to do with Trey Zwicker`s murder. Prosecutors disagree.

Did 15-year-old Joshua Young help kill his own teen brother, or did his father, described as a monster by both sides, throw his own son under the bus, teaching him how to commit cold-blooded murder? At this hour, a jury decides.

Straight out to Dave Mack. Dave, you were in court today listening to all of this. What is the prosecution`s theory here?

DAVE MACK, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: At this point, Jean, the prosecution believes that -- that Josh was there because his father is a monster and he`s trying to impress his father that he`d do anything that his father wants him to do, that he idolizes his father and that that`s what he was doing there, was exactly what his father wanted him to do.

CASAREZ: But what is that, Dave? What is that? What does the prosecution...

MACK: To kill Trey Zwicker. To kill Trey Zwicker. That is the bottom line, that he was going to get rid of Trey Zwicker, that -- and it was for revenge, if you listen to Josh Gouker, but his son, Josh Young, was there to do whatever his dad wanted done, and that meant killing Trey.

CASAREZ: You know, Dave, the prosecutors really made it equal today, that father and son murdered Trey. Let`s listen to that courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... a dark place where Trey was lured by the defendant, his stepbrother, by his stepfather. Trey Zwicker, was afraid of the dark, and it was in a dark ditch where he was brutally murdered by Josh Gouker and Josh Young, where he was found face down covered in blood, where he was found, his face smashed in and teeth chipped, where he was found with his skull bashed open, his head and neck having been struck multiple times, maybe with a bat, maybe with a metal pipe.

We don`t know what the instrument of Trey`s death was because that defendant woke up his cousin in the middle of the night, after he and his father committed the murder, and asked her to help him get rid of a bloody bat and clothes, and she did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Alexis Weed, set the scene for us here because it all began a seemingly normal night. Both kids had gotten off the school bus. They`d been to high school that day. They were friends. They`d known each other for a long, long time. The defense says they were very close friends. And there was a barbecue that night with the adults and Trey and Joshua Young.

How did this happen?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. So the family is celebrating a big barbecue that night there at Trey`s mother, Amanda`s, home, and with her husband, Gouker. The family is having a cookout. There are a lot of people there that evening.

They then say that -- well, there`s conflicting evidence whether or not Trey then goes into the house at some point during this evening. And Young has given statements to police saying that he knows that Trey took a shower, then got fully clothed, walked outside, then saw Gouker and Amanda sitting, I guess, in the back of the home there, as it`s getting later and later in the evening, and then goes back inside.

According to Trey`s mother, that is the very last time that she ever saw her son.

CASAREZ: Everybody, you are looking at pictures -- you were looking at pictures of Trey Zwicker, the victim in this case, 14 years old, bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat or a pipe so many times that his head, his neck, his teeth -- they were chipped and gone, and the blood that was found all over him.

But the question is, how did he get down to that creek area where his body was found? It was walking distance, but Dave Mack, it was bedtime. Why did Trey go upstairs, take a shower and come back down fully clothed again? That doesn`t make sense.

MACK: No. Only if the prosecution`s right and that he was lured there somehow, some way. Now, Josh Gouker is apparently the most cunning guy of all time and can convince police to go along with him on an idea.

So it`s believed that he actually was able to convince Trey that they were going to go somewhere and do something, and he led him astray and that`s why he went and got dressed up to go out somewhere. But he only took him to what they called the spot, which is where he killed him with his son, Josh.

CASAREZ: That`s right, luring him to that spot. That is the prosecution`s theory that night. And the prosecution`s theory is that father and son lured him to that area.

Everybody, we have got very, very special guests tonight who have lived with this since it happened. We have blood relatives of Trey Zwicker with us. First of all, Terrance Zwicker, Terry Zwicker, the father of Trey, is joining us tonight.

Thank you so much for coming on. And we want to learn about your son. We want a tribute to your son tonight, whose life was cut way too short.

And we also have the grandma, the blood grandma of Trey Zwicker, Shelly Stewart, who is joining us exclusively tonight. Thank you also. First of all...

SHELLY STEWART, VICTIM`S GRANDMOTHER: You`re welcome.

CASAREZ: ... mr. Zwicker, Trey was 14. And there`s one thing I know about him. He loved to fish. The two of you used to fish a lot?

TERRANCE ZWICKER, VICTIM`S FATHER: Yes. He was my fishing buddy. And still today, I pack his tackle box and his fishing pole, and we still go fishing every day that I`ve got a chance and I don`t have to work. So we still go.

CASAREZ: Tell me about the person he was. As you raised him, what were the values that you instilled with him that as he was becoming that young man you just saw in him?

ZWICKER: Pretty much any kind of value I thought was necessary. I wanted him to know how to work with his hands, if he had to. I wanted him to respect adults. I was really, really strict when it came to those school grades, making sure that he had everything he need. And you know, I just -- just to be a good, good person, you know, and respect others and treat them as you would want to be treated.

CASAREZ: Do you think he was naive?

ZWICKER: No. I mean, in this society, that`s kind of hard to claim anymore. I mean, these kids see it all. He played video games that had more things than I really wanted him to play on to it. I don`t think he -- I mean, he didn`t have a vast knowledge of what the world can be like, but I couldn`t shelter him from everything.

CASAREZ: Joining us tonight, everybody, Terry Zwicker, the father of Trey, and also the grandma of Trey Zwicker is joining us, Shelly Stewart.

Mrs. Stewart, I want to ask you -- when I say naive, I mean that he trusted. Do you believe that that night, which was to be his last night, that he trusted when he shouldn`t have?

STEWART: Yes, I do. Yes, I do believe that. He was still the young kid -- you know, skateboards, video games. He wasn`t into getting into any kind of trouble or anything like that.

And when he talked about little Josh being different, it`s become little Josh had no emotion, and Trey was full of emotion because he was taught how to love and how to be a genuine person. And little Josh, he just never has any kind of emotion or anything. So that`s -- when he`s talking about them being different, that was it.

CASAREZ: Mrs. Stewart, can you tell me, your -- the area where you live -- when we heard this in court today -- everybody really knows everybody. I mean, it`s a wonderful thing. We heard testimony from your son today that people that he had gone to kindergarten with, he still lived in that block area. Just describe where you live, what it is like.

STEWART: Well, I don`t live there anymore, but my husband, ex- husband, he was raised there. And they learned -- they went to school there when it was Bruce (ph) and my son went there when it was Bruce and they learned to ride their bicycles back there. It was just everybody on that road is family, and if your kid did something, anybody on that street would say, Hey, hey, hey, you know? And it was just a big extended family. And they wouldn`t let the children get out of hand or anything because they were all cousins and nieces and -- It was just all family.

CASAREZ: Did you know Joshua Gouker?

STEWART: Yes. He`s been a pain in my side since he was 13.

CASAREZ: Why? Explain.

STEWART: He`s -- he`s bad. He`s been a bad seed, a bad -- not only a thief, a liar, a manipulator. He would pin (ph) people against people just to sit back and watch it happen. He`s just been a bad person his whole life. Actually, when he was 13, I went down there to whip his butt, but that`s another story.

CASAREZ: Are you shocked that he then ultimately pleads guilty to killing your own grandson? Did you ever think it would come to this?

STEWART: Did I ever think that he would murder my grandson?

CASAREZ: Yes.

STEWART: No, I didn`t think he would. I knew he never wanted Trey around. From the time that him and Amanda got married, he never wanted Trey to be around. But I never thought it would get to this extent. But he`s just never wanted Trey around ever since him and Amanda got married years ago.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no question that Josh Gouker is guilty of the murder of Trey Zwicker. There is also no question that he involved his son, Josh Young, the defendant, in that murder. He either threw him under the bus to deflect the attention from him, or he took him under his wing and he taught him how to commit murder.

Ladies and gentlemen, we believe the evidence supports the latter. At the close of this case, Ms. Jones Brown (ph) will ask you to return the only verdict that the evidence supports and that justice demands. We will ask you to find him guilty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. OK, you`ve got two brothers. One is 15 years old, one is 14 years old. Did the 15-year-old, Joshua Young, actually kill his own brother? That`s who prosecutors said in court today. They said his father, Joshua Gouker, and Joshua Young together committed murder. And that`s what this trial is all about -- both straight-A students, both loving to their own parents.

I want to go back out to Shelly Stewart, who is the maternal grandmother of Trey, with us tonight exclusively, along with the biological father of Trey Zwicker, Terrance Zwicker, joining us.

Mrs. Stewart, you said before the break that Joshua Gouker, who was called by both sides as a monster, who has pleaded guilty to murdering your grandson, who you have known -- since 13 you knew Gouker -- why didn`t he like Trey?

STEWART: He didn`t like Trey because Trey belonged to another man. He wanted to control my daughter so much that he didn`t want another man`s child to have to raise.

So I didn`t know until recently that she had given guardianship to my oldest son and his daughter when Trey was in kindergarten because Josh didn`t want Trey living in the same house that he lived in. And I just recently found that out.

CASAREZ: Tell me about Joshua Young. Since you know Gouker, did you know his son, now on trial for murdering your grandson, too?

STEWART: I didn`t get to know Joshua Young until he moved in with my daughter. But he`s never had any kind of emotion. He`s never smiled. He`s never had any kind of emotion, whether it be sad, happy or anything. He just looks the same all the time.

And I know he was into doing things he shouldn`t be doing. Like, I do know that he went down and egged my sister`s house, and then I think that that night, that they lured Trey out, I think they were going to try to -- told Trey they were going to do something, you know, just to get him out of the house because he wouldn`t have went with them by hisself for no reason because he didn`t like little Josh.

CASAREZ: That`s the thing. Does it make sense to you that your grandson took a shower to go to bed, and then put clothes back on and came outside?

STEWART: No, that doesn`t make sense because I don`t think Trey would have done that because he would have done what his mother told him to. He would have took that bath and he would have done whatever.

But I think that Josh and them lured him out. I don`t believe that he went out by hisself. And just a short thing here. Everybody thinks little Josh and Trey were best friends. They weren`t. Trey did not like little Josh. One time, Trey told me little Josh was as bad as his father, big Josh.

CASAREZ: Wow. You know, there are some allegations that he stabbed a dog. And I`m talking about Joshua Young. Those are allegations. But you live in that community. You know those people. You have lived in the community. Have you heard anything about that?

STEWART: I do know he stabbed the dog with a fork because the dog lived next door, and he stabbed the dog with the fork because it was barking. And his father told him, Next time, you don`t just hurt the dog, you kill the dog. His father told him that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you were asked what Trey said about Josh Young, what did you say?

ZWICKER: I said that -- you know, we had talked to each other about Josh Young, or I said that I had asked about Josh Young, and he said -- he said he was just a different human being. He wasn`t really used to Joshua. He was just a different person. You know, it wasn`t nothing bad, or he didn`t have any problems with him. He just didn`t know how to take him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. Trey Zwicker, 14 years old -- think about it. Remember when you were 14 years old, how young you were? Or maybe you have kids that are 14 years old right now.

He got off the school bus, as he did every day, went to high school. He was an honor student. He was a member of his church choir. And hours later, he was down at the creek bed and his life ended because his head was bashed in so many times.

The prosecution opening was today. They didn`t leave anything out. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ladies and gentlemen, you are going to hear from the medical examiner. You`re going to hear about the wounds that Trey suffered. You`re going to hear about the damage that was done to his skull and to his face and to his teeth, and that because he had been left outside, you`ll hear about the flies and the fly eggs that were already in his body.

You will hear that we weren`t sure, based on the medical evidence, what the weapon was. Could be a bat, could be a pipe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And joining us right now is Dr. William Morrone. He`s a medical examiner, forensic pathologist joining us out of Michigan.

Doctor, when you -- when we heard in the opening statements about how many times that this young 14-year-old was bashed into his face, his skull, his neck and his teeth to the point that his teeth were all chipped off, how much did he suffer? Because blow after blow happened, but he had to feel the pain. He had to suffer.

DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST/MEDICAL EXAMINER (via telephone): If they started the blunt force trauma in his skull and he was knocked unconscious, he may not have suffered. But if they hit him in the head and face and mouth and upper neck, as also claimed, he would have suffered tremendously.

So the order of the trauma, the order of the blunt force insults is going to be very important in proving suffering in the forensic data. So we`ll have to see how they develop that and if they have a timeline for the order of the blunt force trauma.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to hear from Roy Stallmey (ph), who was in homicide at the time. He was with Detective Russ (ph) on a lot of the interviews that -- as the investigation first started. And he`s going tell you about this chunk of time that was spent and wasted going down a rabbit hole, a rabbit hole that was dug by Josh Gouker and Josh Young because you`re going learn that they both told detectives that nobody -- Trey didn`t have trouble with anybody except those black kids, those black kids over in Bridgewood (ph). You know, there was a problem. They`re who did it. They`re the only ones who could have done it.

When you get a lead, you work it, and you work it until it`s no good anymore. And from May 13 through May 22nd, Ellen PD (ph) homicide was chasing down that lead. Down that rabbit hole built by the defendant and his father.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez in for Nancy Grace. What the prosecutor is saying right there is that after Trey was found murdered, that father Joshua and son Joshua told law enforcement, oh, yes, yes, it`s those other kids, they probably did it, because all they are, are trouble. And so investigators went that direction. Meanwhile, father and son then high- tailed it out of the state of Kentucky. And it was Louisville, Kentucky on a May night, a very nice May night after a barbecue that all of this happened.

I want to go out to Dave Mack. Dave, how did anybody find the body of Trey? It was behind the high school. It was in a gully. It was near an irrigation ditch. When was the body found?

MACK: It was found the next day. I mean, it was found by people, students at the school that just happened to be back there looking. I mean, they weren`t looking for it specifically, they didn`t know what they were going to see.

CASAREZ: Isn`t it in fact the teacher the one who took their class walking back there to get some air and to let out their energy as she testified today?

MACK: And that`s when they saw the body. When they called in to bring police, the police didn`t go close enough. The first guy on the scene didn`t even go very close to the body because they could tell there was massive devastation done to the body.

CASAREZ: And also, Dave Mack, as the teacher testified today, she said that her students started calling out to the person they saw face down on the ground, hey, can we help you, are you OK? They had no idea that he was dead.

To Alexis Weed, you know, we heard the name Cassie today in the opening by prosecutors, and this is going to be critical, critical evidence, and it leads to the charge of tampering with evidence against Joshua Young right there. Explain.

WEED: Right. This is Cassie Gouker. This is a cousin to Joshua Gouker, and the claim by the prosecution is that after the murder, that Cassie was awoken from her sleep by Young, not by Gouker but by Young, and they`re saying, the prosecution is saying that Young`s participation is waking her in middle of the night to go dispose of bloody clothing, and along with what they said might be the murder weapon, what Cassie Gouker thought was possibly a bat. And they took those article to a dumpster that was located behind a supermarket that`s not too far from the home where Gouker was living.

CASAREZ: And they were never able to find those items, even though Cassie took them to the dumpster once she was finally questioned. There was so much blood, and that`s one reason prosecutors said they had to get rid of that evidence as fast as they could. Listen to one of the detectives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body was located very close to the water in a face down position with black clothing on. Just the location of the body, you don`t know if -- were they face down in the water? It`s hard to tell at that point. But once you got a little closer, you could kind of see blood on the back of the victim`s head. I think one of his arms was outstretched. I think it might have been his right arm. He had a short- sleeved black t-shirt on, and it looked like blood, a little bit of splatter maybe on his arm. Blood pooling underneath his face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Dr. Morrone, forensic pathologist, medical examiner. She also testified that there were flies and egg larva already on the body of Trey out there. Did the flies go for the blood, since he was soaking in blood, or for the decomposition?

MORRONE: Flies are attracted by decomposing tissues. And they bring fly larva, which hatch and become maggots, and are part of the early decomposition. That`s what those flies were all about. The blood is secondary, but the decomposing body, that first stage, that fresh decomposing, is what brought those flies in. It`s a completely predictable timetable of decomposition based on those flies.

CASAREZ: Let`s go out to the lawyers. Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified attorney, crimes prosecutor, joining us out of Atlanta, and Peter Odom, defense attorney.

Eleanor, when you look at Joshua Young and his participation, as the prosecutor stated today, they both committed this murder. Now, we don`t know at this point if Joshua Young was right down there. Prosecutors say yes, defense is going to say no, at the irrigation area, but does he have to be right there? Couldn`t he be the lookout to give the sign if anybody sees what Gouker is doing to Trey? Isn`t that enough?

ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: It is enough, Jean. And remember, as a party to the crime, he is just as guilty as the person who delivered the blows. So whether or not he delivered the blows does not mean he`s guilty or not guilty.

His guilt can be tied in even if he didn`t deliver those blows. What I thought was very important is he`s the one going to his cousin in the middle of the night and saying, hey, we`ve got to hide this stuff. That shows you right there the knowledge, his participation, his plan, you can get so much from that piece of evidence, and that really tied him to the scene.

CASAREZ: You sure can. It`s called a state of mind. Peter Odom, you know, Peter, in a cross-examination already today I heard something that I was fascinated with, something about a shoe print, because the defense asked one of the law enforcement officers out there did they ask you about your shoe size. If the shoe prints are out there of Joshua Young, that is a critical bit of evidence.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it`s not. Because this was a spot, this young man was tragically killed in a spot that they called the Spot. This is a place where they both used to play. Both their shoe prints would be there, having nothing to do with the murder. And I`ll tell you something, Jean, I hope that the prosecution has something more than the testimony of Josh Gouker, the multiply convicted stepfather, and speculation. Because it sounds to me that that`s all they have at this point. That will never build a case against Josh Young.

CASAREZ: Eleanor Odom, Eleanor, if a fresh shoe print is out there at an irrigation area, that has a lot of water, which can erode a shoe print, I think that is relevant evidence.

E. ODOM: It is relevant. Of course the defense is trying to shove off that and say it`s not relevant. This kid isn`t guilty, because he looks like some sweet innocent angel sitting there, but he`s not. Jean, looks are very deceiving. We don`t know how he looked the night he was wielding a bat or being a lookout for his dad. There are two different people, the face you see at court and the face of someone who is participating in a murder.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do y`all have separate rooms?

YOUNG: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And did you ever see him go into his room?

YOUNG: Well, like I was in my room and he was in the shower, and that`s the last time I seen him, which was already after we ate and the barbecue was getting wrapped up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, but you know he changed back in his regular clothes so you saw him after he got out of the shower?

YOUNG: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did he say anything to you about -- OK. Did he, and I`m just trying to -- if you know anything about did he plan on sneaking out or doing anything like that?

YOUNG: He would have told me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He would have told you?

YOUNG: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

YOUNG: He doesn`t really do anything like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez in for Nancy Grace. Tonight we have a very special guests joining us from Louisville, Kentucky. First of all, Terrance Zwicker, he is the father of Trey, who is joining us tonight, and exclusively, the biological grandmother, Shelly Stewart of Trey is joining us also.

Terry, I know you testified today and I`m not going to ask you about your testimony because to me testimony is sacred, it is not something to be discussed during a trial. But what is it like for you to suddenly have this day come that this trial is now beginning of what you -- who you believe is one of the killers of your son?

TERRANCE ZWICKER, FATHER: It`s a long road down a dark tunnel. And now I can see the light. And, you know, after it`s all said and done, no matter what the verdict is at the end of the day, it`s over for me, and I get to go on with my life and I get to go on with who I was before and try to make the best of what I got left.

CASAREZ: What is justice to you?

ZWICKER: At this point, I would take the full max of death, but life is best as I can get, so that`s what I want to see. That`s what Trey -- Trey suffered death, and I`m doing life for him. So either/or is fine. But it`s not about me. It`s about Trey. This is all about getting justice for Trey, and what`s fair to Trey is it`s over for him, and Trey don`t get no rehabilitation, Trey don`t reenter society. Trey is where he`s going to be at for the rest of my life.

CASAREZ: Mrs. Stewart, were you in court today?

SHELLY STEWART, GRANDMOTHER: Yes.

CASAREZ: We heard in court, and when some of the pictures were shown of your grandson, where he was found, we heard cries and shrieks. Who was that?

STEWART: That was my youngest daughter. Between Terry and my youngest daughter Wendy and my son, Jeremy, when Trey was little, they were like the most important things in their life. Amanda would leave Trey with Jeremy or Wendy and she would go do things, and Wendy feels like she is Trey`s mother. And for her to see those things, it was really hard on her today, and I told her it was going to be hard, but -- I told her it was going to be hard, but she still wanted to come.

CASAREZ: Had you seen those pictures before?

STEWART: Yes, I have. Everybody kept saying, have you seen the evidence, the news and everything. So I got angry one day and I came up here and said I want all the discovery on the Joshua Young and Joshua Gouker case. And it cost me $20 for a CD, and when I got it home, everything is on it, every bit of information they have, the autopsy pictures, the pictures of where he was found, all that, I`ve already seen it all. And I think that Josh Gouker now should see it for the rest of their lives.

CASAREZ: You know, Mrs. Stewart, one of the things you heard in court today, we heard as we were listening to every bit of this was the prosecution`s opening statement about a Cassie who is going to testify in court, and she has -- she`s going to implicate Joshua Young in a very serious way. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITE: You will hear about the things that Josh Young said to them about killing his stepbrother. You will hear about the things that Josh Gouker did with the woman that they kidnapped, Erin Spec (ph). And I expect you`ll probably hear from her as well. You will hear from Cassie Gouker, who will tell you that indeed Josh woke her up in the middle of the night, and she helped him get rid of a bag full of bloody clothes and what she thought was a bat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: To Brian Russell, forensic psychologist joining us tonight. The defense is going to be that, first of all, Josh Young didn`t participate at all in anything, but more than that, he was manipulated by his father with everything he did do in life. But if he called up his cousin Cassie alone and said I need to get rid of these clothes and Cassie picks him up and the two of them go to a dumpster, that sounds like a young man, Joshua Young, who knew exactly what he was doing.

BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you`re right. Jean, it certainly indicates what we call consciousness of guilt. The question will be whose guilt was it that he was conscious of. Was it his own, in that he was complicit in the actual murder, or was it his father`s in that he was trying to protect his father, making him an accessory after the fact to the murder committed by the father.

CASAREZ: But Eleanor Odom, does it matter that he`s trying to protect his father? Does that matter? Because his state of mind has to be under the law that he knew his father intended to kill or he knew his father was reckless or had wantonness (ph) to murder Trey. So does it matter if he`s trying to protect his father?

E. ODOM: No. It doesn`t matter. It`s stupid. It`s not very smart.

P. ODOM: It does.

E. ODOM: No. Peter Odom is completely wrong. It does not matter.

P. ODOM: It matters.

E. ODOM: He participated in, he planned, as I said before. Clearly he`s got some culpability in all of this. It`s sad because he`s young but that doesn`t take away from responsibility.

P. ODOM: Disposing of evidence after the fact does not implicate him in a murder, it`s completely different.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez in for Nancy Grace. Today in that courtroom, one person was front and center, and that was father Joshua. Both sides had the very same name they called him. Let`s go into the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITE: We also expect that you`ll hear from Josh Gouker. Now, ladies and gentlemen, make no mistake, there is one thing you`re going to hear a lot from both sides over the next week and a half, and there is one thing that those sides agree on, and that is that Josh Gouker is a monster and a murderer. We will not dispute that that is the case. But do not be distracted. This is not his trial. This is the trial of Josh Young. In fact, Josh Gouker has already pled guilty for his role in Trey`s murder. He`s already been sentenced to life for his role in Trey`s murder. We want you to hear the whole story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And we are learning tonight that father Joshua, he may take the stand tomorrow for the prosecution. Alexis Weed, we learned something very interesting today, because prosecutors are putting him on the stand to try to get a story out of him that he put his son, Josh, up to doing this, and if he doesn`t tell the truth, who are prosecutors going to call?

WEED: They say if he does not admit to his previous statements that they`re going to bring in inmates from the jail where he was that he made - - that Gouker made statements to these jail inmates, and they said you know what, we don`t know what Gouker is going to say, but if he denies it, they`re coming in to refute his testimony.

CASAREZ: Very interesting. Let`s go to Caroline in Michigan. Hi, Caroline. All right, we don`t have Caroline.

Dave Mack, what can we expect tomorrow in court?

MACK: Another explosive and painful day for the family, that`s for sure. Still wondering what Gouker is going to say when they bring him up on the stand. They`ll break down the crime a little more, but bottom line, it`s really going to be about Josh Gouker and what he has to say and how it can be beaten up in court by the inmates and the other people he talked to along the way. And don`t forget, Cassie, his cousin, is also someone he`s having a sexual relationship with. That`s also lost in the shuffle here. This guy was messed up on a bunch of different levels.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASAREZ: We remember American hero, Marine Staff Sergeant Joshua Cullins, 28 years old, from Simi Valley, California. An LAPD officer. He was awarded the Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal. He leaves behind his parents James and Barbara, and his brothers Donovan and Cooper. Joshua Cullins, an American hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just an all-around good kid. He loved to be with family and friends and loved the outdoors and mine and his time fishing. He was just a great kid all the way around. I mean, he had his quirks, he talked back, sassed just like any other kid, but he was pretty good all around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: That is Terry Zwicker on the stand talking about his biological son, Trey, the victim in this case.

The other side to this, of course, is the defense. And they had a lot to say in court today, namely, that Joshua Young didn`t participate in any of this. Listen from the defense attorney`s own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULER: Joshua Gouker, and I`ll call him Gouker from now on, committed this horrible murder, and it is truly horrible. I think the prosecutor emphasized how horrible it is. But just because it`s horrible is not evidence that our client committed murder. You`ll be horrifying, you`ll be appalled. It`s brutal, it`s far worse than the average murder that you hear about, but that certainly is no evidence that Joshua Young committed this crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Peter Odom, what do you think? Where should the defense go? We just heard them, but where do they need to go farther than this?

P. ODOM: Yes. I think this is a case about reasonable doubt. You know, that`s the most common defense, and it`s usually the best defense. Reasonable doubt, meaning the state can`t ring the bell. This is a case that is built on the testimony of a multiply convicted felon, Josh Gouker, it is based largely on speculation and circumstantial evidence. The state cannot explain what happened at that riverside. We know that there was a tragic murder. They don`t have one piece of physical evidence linking Josh Young to the actual murder. The defense really doesn`t have to do anything but step back and point out all the holes in the state`s case. That`s what I would be doing. That`s the way I think the defense is handling it here.

CASAREZ: All right. Tomorrow, everybody, it is expected father Joshua may take the stand for the prosecution with his son, Joshua Young, as the defendant watching on. Everybody, Dr. Drew is coming up next.

END