Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Joshua Gouker Testifies
Aired August 05, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSHUA GOUKER, PLED GUILTY TO MURDER: His mother killed a couple of mine, and it just felt right. I mean...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you remember hearing the defendant talk about killing his stepbrother?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thud, thud, thud of him beating on Trey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know what you`re doing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it`s not easy to be a mastermind when you`re dealing with dumb people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Little Josh, Josh Young, had said that he did it and that he`s a slugger.
GOUKER: I mean, alls I had to do was convince that guy right there, which I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is a slugger?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a baseball bat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell us what you remember.
GOUKER: You`re so desperate (ph), man. You want to hear (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
I mean, it`s not like I wanted Trey to die or if I could do it over, I`d kill him again. No, ma`am.
Yet here I am going over the same (EXPLETIVE DELETED) story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I beat the hell out of him somewhere (INAUDIBLE)
GOUKER: You`re trying to make microscopic little (EXPLETIVE DELETED) holes that I didn`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) two years ago. I know it sounds monstrous, and if we was in the Old Testament, it`d be the same thing.
(EXPLETIVE DELETED) yes, but God damn, I`ve lied this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) time.
That`s what I said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: No. If it were the Old Testament days, he would be stoned to death by now for the murder of a little boy!
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Live, Kentucky, a boy`s body found face down in a ditch behind a local high school, beaten to death. Prime suspect, his own teen brother. Motive, jealousy. Both boys honor students.
But now the dad claims he did it. Why? To get back at Mommy for aborting his babies.
But first tonight, I want to personally thank Sheriff Joe Arpaio, Arizona. I was apparently followed for four years by a Bath (ph), New York man. He then repeatedly threatened my life. He was apprehended en route after quitting his job and selling all of his belongings. He was stopped, thanks to Arpaio, stopped with a car loaded with guns, knives, handcuffs, zipties, a police band radio and more.
He could have ended my life. But more important, he could have harmed my children. Sheriff Arpaio, Detective Macowitz (ph) and New York officials, I want to thank you, especially on behalf of my children.
And now we are live to Kentucky. I want to go straight out to Alexis Weed, on the story. Alexis, I don`t understand how they`ve got a boy on trial, when the father has already said he is the killer, that he took what we believe to be a baseball bat, but possibly a metal rod, and beat a 14- year-old child`s head until he was dead.
So tell me, explain to me why the brother, the honor student, is on trial.
ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. So this is about complicity to murder. The prosecutors are saying that Joshua Young, the stepbrother of the boy who was murdered, Trey Zwicker -- they`re saying that he aided his father in producing this murder and leaving this 14-year- old in a ditch, face down, bloody.
GRACE: OK, this is what I know, Alexis. I know that there`s a witness that states the boy defendant shows up at 1:30 in the morning, 1:30 AM with a bloody Louisville Slugger, a bloody baseball bat, and says, I killed my brother, all right? Now, they`ve got that, but they`ve got the father insisting he did it.
Everybody, the father on the stand. Let`s go straight back in the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... you ultimately went back to her house?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you went inside and had sex?
GOUKER: Probably.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You did or didn`t?
GOUKER: I mean, several times that night. I don`t remember the order. Yes, we -- yes. That`s how we fixed our problems.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And so you went in and had sex, and then you went and got cigarettes?
GOUKER: Yes, after (EXPLETIVE DELETED) yes, after one of them times, yes, we went and got cigarettes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And then you came back and had sex again.
GOUKER: Probably.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, so the dad`s alibi at one time, he was making a porn tape with the mother. OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and Amanda fell asleep?
GOUKER: Yes, she fell asleep.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then you went out on the couch to play Mortal Kombat.
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that while you were out there playing Mortal Kombat, Trey came downstairs?
GOUKER: I don`t know if he came downstairs or came in from the back porch or where he came from. I don`t know. I know what you`re doing. You`re trying to make microscopic little (EXPLETIVE DELETED) holes that I didn`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about two years ago. So how can I tell you the exact thing now when I really didn`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) then?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you`re telling the truth, it shouldn`t be too hard.
GOUKER: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) yes, but, God damn, I`ve lied (EXPLETIVE DELETED) times, except for since arraignment. Since arraignment court, I`ve told I`ve done it. I admitted everything I`ve done. I`ve been sentenced for it, life in prison. Yet here I am, going over the same (EXPLETIVE DELETED) story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you serving?
GOUKER: Life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For what?
GOUKER: Killing Trey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you enter into a guilty plea, or did a jury found you guilty?
GOUKER: I just pled guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you have any deal with the commonwealth when you did so?
GOUKER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you get ever -- even get an offer from the commonwealth?
GOUKER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you give a version of the facts when you pled guilty?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you tell the jury what those were?
GOUKER: What do you mean? The whole thing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GOUKER: I mean, that makes it sound like it was about Trey, and it wasn`t. I mean...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell the jury what you told the judge when you pled guilty, what the facts were?
GOUKER: That I killed him for stealing from him and for keeping on stealing (EXPLETIVE DELETED), you know? But that wasn`t really the -- I mean, I don`t know. I -- it was -- it just felt right at the time, but that wasn`t why I did it. I mean, it`s not like I wanted Trey to die, or if I could do it over, I`d kill him again, none of that, you know? I mean, his mother killed a couple of mine, and it just felt right. I mean, I know it sounds monstrous and all that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) but it`s not. If we was in the Old Testament, it`d be the same thing, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: No, again. If we were in the Old Testament, he would be stoned to death for murdering a little boy by beating him in the head. And now he says his motivation was the boy`s mother aborted two of his babies, so he got her back by murdering her son, her son being Trey Zwicker.
Who is this freak, Matt Zarrell? Who is this guy? I mean, didn`t Joshua Gouker just get out of jail? What`s he doing out of jail anyway?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, he had served about nine years for charges -- for a conviction including armed robbery and assault. And Joshua Young was actually not in his custody. He was with a foster family because his mother had passed away the year earlier.
In fact, Nancy, Joshua Gouker did not regain custody of his son, Joshua Young, until about six weeks before the murder.
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! He gets out of jail on armed robbery, and he what, just walks into the courthouse and tells the judge, Hey, I want my son back, back from the foster family that loves him, and a judge just hands him over, hands the little -- hands Joshua Young over?
ZARRELL: Well, what happened was, is that Gouker was released in September of 2010. He filed for and regained custody at the very end of March...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Wait! Wait a minute! Wait a minute! I`m looking at the kid on trial. He looks like he weighs about 98 pounds. Hold on, Matt.
Right now, I`m being joined from the courthouse in Louisville by Chuck Stoneburner. This is the foster father of Joshua Young, the defendant. It doesn`t even seem right to say defendant. When I look at that kid, he looks like he`s what, about 98 pounds? It just -- it`s -- Mr. Stoneburner, thank you for being with us.
CHUCK STONEBURNER, JOSHUA YOUNG`S FOSTER FATHER: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Mr. Stoneburner, what do you think of this whole thing?
STONEBURNER: Well, I think you hit it right on the head. Joshua, as far as his physical abilities, wasn`t able to do this murder. If we look at all the facts in the case, Gouker confessed to the murder. I think the coroner`s report backs up what he said as far as using a pipe to beat Josh Zwicker. And as far as Josh having anything to do with this, it`s just out of the question.
GRACE: Now, here`s the problem, Mr. Stoneburner. Number one, I don`t know why his natural father got him back anyway. What judge -- what judge hands a little boy over to a guy who`s just gotten out of jail for armed robbery and he`s got a rap sheet as long as I-75, all right?
I mean, when you hear this guy talk, he is the devil. He`s the devil, and some judge just hands a little boy over to him, and now that little boy is charged with murder.
But here`s the problem, Mr. Stoneburner. There`s a witness that places your son, your foster son, at 1:30 AM holding a bloody baseball bat, saying, I just killed Trey. Now, how can the defense get around that?
STONEBURNER: Well, I think if you look at the facts, is there -- where`s the baseball bat? Where`s the hard proof that this has happened?
First of all, I want to say my heart goes out to the Zwicker family and our prayers. If anything like that had happened to our family, we would want everybody involved with the murder to be tried and convicted. But in this case...
GRACE: Well, I`d want them to get the death penalty. And I don`t understand why Joshua Gouker, the adult in this scenario hasn`t gotten -- he should be electrocuted right now! He should be electrocuted. They should have sought the death penalty on him. He beat that boy`s head in. He killed a little boy and left his body for a student to find the following day, and somehow, he`s roped your foster kid in on this. I don`t know to what extent.
But this is -- I have no doubt in my mind this is not your foster son`s idea. He was involved somehow, but I guarantee you this was not his idea to go and commit a murder on another little boy. I don`t believe it, Mr. Stoneburner.
STONEBURNER: Yes, I agree. If you look at Josh Gouker`s record, and his criminal record, this goes right down the path with what he`s capable of doing. And if you look at Josh Young`s record in his past, in the time he spent with us over seven months, 24/7 you know, playing basketball, eating with us, going on picnics, you know, doing recreational activities, he doesn`t fit the profile one bit.
And if you look at the hard evidence, what has come to this case, that agrees with it, as well.
GRACE: Well, Mr. Stoneburner, I can tell from the evidence, based on this witness testimony that he had a baseball bat covered in blood and says, Help me get rid of this, I just killed Trey -- I think he was there. But being there and being led there by this man, Gouker, I don`t know that it`s going to equal is murder conviction.
Let me ask you this. This is very important to me. Would you take him back into your home tonight?
STONEBURNER: In a heartbeat. In a heartbeat. We would welcome Josh back in our home.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said that the details of the murder are a blur to you.
GOUKER: Some of them. Some (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I never even said that I can (ph) see vividly, like I remember it, you know, a lot of, you know, (EXPLETIVE DELETED), (EXPLETIVE DELETED) don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t remember. Tell us the details you remember.
GOUKER: I just remember just a (EXPLETIVE DELETED), you know, just...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like what?
GOUKER: You`re sadistic, man! You want to hear (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell us what you remember. You did this, it shouldn`t be so hard.
GOUKER: It`s not hard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell us what you remember.
GOUKER: I mean, just being covered (ph), Trey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s what you remember?
GOUKER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, here`s what we`ve got there in Kentucky. We`ve got a boy on trial for the murder of his own brother. Enter the bio dad, who now claims he did it.
Here`s the fly in the ointment. You got a witness stating that the brother shows up 1:30 AM holding a bloody baseball bat, saying, I killed my brother.
Unleash the lawyers, Marla Chicotsky, Alex Sanchez. First of all, to you, Sanchez. Here`s the thing. If the boy defendant on trial right now - - if he was there on the scene, if he aided and abetted in any way, even if the father told him to, he`s in it. He`s looking at a conviction. That`s the law. Even if the father said something to get the boy to lure the victim there...
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
GRACE: ... and the defendant did it, he`s part and parcel of the whole thing. But I don`t know if a jury is going to buy this.
SANCHEZ: Well, you know, that`s acting in concert. If you`ve done any act at all to assist in the commission of a crime, then you`re as guilty as the person that committed the crime.
But one thing I don`t understand, Nancy -- and you`re a former prosecutor. Maybe you can help me out with this. Why on earth is the prosecution calling this guy Gouker as witness? He`s an absolute monster. He`s taking responsibility for committing the murder. How on earth is he helping out the prosecution`s case?
GRACE: Well, because -- I can tell you that right now, Sanchez, because if they don`t, the defense will. And they don`t want to look like they`re withholding evidence. Plus, the reality is, he`s so incredible. He`s not -- what I mean by that is he`s not credible. He is a monster.
Did you hear, Chicotsky, where he -- and I`m talking about the adult, Gouker -- claimed that he beat a dog to death because it, quote, (EXPLETIVE DELETED), all right? Yes, it`s a dog, and he beat it to death and said, yes, what`s wrong with that?
I mean, this guy is horrible. Have you seen his record? It`s so -- terroristic threats, ag assault, just -- it goes on, harassing, intimidating witnesses. It`s this long. It`s this long, all right?
So -- but my issue is not about him. I know he`s the devil. My question is, how can a jury blame the boy?
MARLA CHICOTSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think a jury should blame a boy in this case. There`s absolutely no direct evidence, Nancy, that the boy was there. What they have is a witness. And if you look into this witness, she was sleeping at some point or intimate with Gouker, the man who confessed to this murder. So is she credible? Does she have a bias or motive...
GRACE: Put her up!
CHICOTSKY: ... for saying...
GRACE: Put her up! Wait a minute! Is this the cousin? You know, the father is sleeping with the cousin, all right?
CHICOTSKY: Allegedly.
GRACE: And their big defense is, Oh, that was by marriage. You know, this whole kit and kaboodle -- this is what I`ve got to say. Number one, back to you, Chuck Stoneburner. You`re the foster father of the boy on trial. You want to take him home. I don`t know why Gouker didn`t get the death penalty. He needs to be electrocuted yesterday.
But what I don`t quite get is your son`s involvement. I mean, he`s clearly involved in some way. I don`t know if it equals a murder conviction. But I`m wondering if Gouker didn`t lure him out there somehow.
STONEBURNER: I think the only thing Josh is guilty of is having Gouker as a father. You know, Gouker is, like you said, just an individual that nobody would want out on the streets. And he`s exactly where he needs to be, behind bars.
And I think another tragedy is unfolding here, not only the death of Trey, but also Josh being held in essentially prison since he was 15 -- now he`s 17 -- for a crime he didn`t commit. Now he needs to get back out on the streets almost turning 18 with that over his head and trying to make sense of everything. And hopefully, we`re able to help him with that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You talked about when you all had sex that night, you talked about the details of the sex and that you and Amanda videotaped it. Is that a yes?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You told them that you all used a banana?
GOUKER: Probably.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably? And then after you had sex the second time, you smoked a blunt (ph) and went to sleep.
GOUKER: Probably.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably. OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live and taking your calls. But right now, straight back into the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You told them about that night after the cookout, about you and Amanda being outside with the lights out?
GOUKER: Yes, I`m sure I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That after everybody left, the kids took baths.
GOUKER: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You told them that Kinsey (ph) took a bath first?
GOUKER: I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then that Trey took a bath?
GOUKER: I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you looked at a transcript, would it refresh your memory?
GOUKER: I mean, no, I mean, yes, if I -- if it`s in there, if it says I said it, then I said it. I don`t deny nothing I`ve said. I`m a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) liar, you know what I mean? But I was probably telling the truth about that. I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
GOUKER: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) didn`t mean nothing to me, you know what I mean? I was trying to get on past that day. Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOUKER: So how can I tell you the exact thing now, when I really didn`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) then?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A dark place where Trey was lured.
GOUKER: Life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For what?
GOUKER: Killing Trey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trey Zwicker was afraid of the dark, and it was in a dark ditch where he was brutally murdered by Josh Gouker and Josh Young.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You admitted to beating a dog to death?
GOUKER: I mean, it was just one whack.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you beat a cat, killed a cat and threw it away?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there`s one thing that both sides agree on.
GOUKER: I knew they wanted to put a mask on this monster.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... that he was found face down covered in blood, face smashed in and teeth chipped, with his skull bashed open.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Josh Gouker is a monster.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is also no question that he involved his son, Josh Young, the defendant, in that murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A 14-year-old little boy led to his death, beaten to death brutally by either a baseball bat or a steel rod, a metal rod. But just who is to blame? Right now on trial, the 14-year-old victim`s own brother. Both of them honor students. But coming into court now, a convicted felon. None other than the bio dad, claiming he is solely responsible. But a witness places the boy defendant awake, and with a bloody baseball bat in his hand at 1:30 a.m. the night of the murder.
Bottom line, this boy is dead. This little boy, Trey, is dead. Who is responsible? Straight back into the courtroom.
GOUKER: They all said the same thing, same [ EXPLETIVE DELETED] that little Josh did it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They all told --
GOUKER: That I did it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- the same facts?
GOUKER: Yes. No, they all told the same story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
GOUKER: The same story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is now the story?
GOUKER: I mean we`ve done -- I mean, how do you not see it this late in the game? All I had to do was convince that guy right there, which I did. You know what I`m saying? He threw up his around me. I was on the first 48 19 times, you know, and I`m doing the right thing the whole time. And I`m just -- every time he`d do this, and every time I stand (inaudible) he`d do that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were the mastermind, right?
GOUKER: I mean, you can call it what you want. It`s not easy to be a mastermind when you`re dealing with dumb people. I mean, that guy couldn`t find [ EXPLETIVE DELETED] in a strip club. But it is what it is. I had to do what I had to do to try to get back out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During that interview, you told Detective Ross (ph) that Trey was afraid of the dark, right?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That there was no way that he would ever go down to this spot at night by himself, right?
GOUKER: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You admitted to hurting some animals during that statement, didn`t you?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You admitted to beating a dog to death.
GOUKER: I mean, it was just one whack. Y`all make it sound more sinister than it was. The thing [ EXPLETIVE DELETED] on everything. It was broke. It was a broke dog--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible) you beat a dog to death.
GOUKER: Yes, I`ve been sentenced for it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you beat a cat?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Killed a cat and threw it away?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you told Detective Ross during that statement that Trey has never and would never steal from you, right?
GOUKER: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then again, you begged to hear exactly how Trey died, didn`t you?
GOUKER: Yes.
GRACE: With me right now is this man`s lawyer. Mark Hall is joining us from Louisville. He is the attorney for Joshua Gouker. Mark Hall, thank you for being with us.
MARK HALL, ATTORNEY FOR GOUKER: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: I don`t quite understand how the plea went down for your client. Your client just what, goes into court, was it a blind plea? In other words, no negotiation, no plea deal whatsoever?
HALL: That is -- that`s right. Mr. Gouker informed me that he wanted to plead guilty. We obviously tried to convince him not to do this, that it was not in his best interest and was a bad idea, but he chose to go forward. There was no negotiation, there was no conversation with the commonwealth about it.
GRACE: Mr. Hall, you know, I`ve looked into your background. You`ve got a fine reputation. But do you ever worry about the rest of us? I mean, you`re trying to get this guy off the hook, you`re trying to get him a lighter sentence. Do you ever think about the good of everybody else? Who wants this guy, he`s killed a cat, he`s killed a dog, now he`s tortured and murdered a 14-year-old boy. Why would you want him to get a lighter sentence, Mr. Hall?
HALL: Well, I think that, you know, our system of justice is based on due process and being innocent until proven guilty, and I firmly believe that. I have been a prosecutor in my past, and I understand being able to bring evidence in order to convict a person once they`re guilty of a crime. But also, being on the other side of the cases now, I also understand that it is very important that in order for our system of justice to work, that we have to hold the commonwealth accountable and ensure --
GRACE: OK. You know what, Mr. Hall?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I get what you`re saying, but it`s all starting to run together. Can I see, Mr. Hall, there he is, just promise me one thing, that Gouker doesn`t have your home address?
HALL: Mr. Gouker is firmly secured in the state prison system.
GRACE: Yes, for now.
HALL: I believe he is probably going to be there for a good while.
GRACE: A good while, I want to talk to you about that.
HALL: Although he`s eligible for --
GRACE: He didn`t get life without parole. He should have gotten the death penalty.
HALL: No, he did not.
GRACE: In my book for killing a child. He didn`t get life without parole. Why? Who was the judge that gave him straight life?
HALL: Well, under the charges that he was charged with in the state of Kentucky, in order to be eligible for the death penalty or life without parole, there has to be aggravators under certain statutory guidelines, and Mr. Gouker, unfortunately the -- or fortunately for him, I guess -- the crime just didn`t --
GRACE: The state didn`t charge him?
HALL: It wasn`t charged. And there was no aggravator (inaudible). But I`m not certain that under the statue, that he would have been eligible for that anyway. Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Mr. Hall, isn`t one of the aggravators in your jurisdiction a heinous, a particularly heinous crime?
HALL: There`s a possibility that that could have been --
GRACE: So that`s yes.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That is one of the aggravators --
HALL: I don`t think so, ma`am.
GRACE: But it wasn`t charged in this case.
HALL: Under the statutory scheme in the state of Kentucky, I do not believe that that is a potential aggravator in Kentucky. So I don`t think that that would have been--
GRACE: I think it is. Matt Zarrell, what can you tell us about the aggravators for the death penalty in Kentucky?
ZARRELL: Well, Nancy, obviously like most states, it goes with killing more than one person, killing a police officer, another one I want to point out, killing a child.
GRACE: There you go. That`s aggravating, killing a child. I`m aggravated by that. Out to you, Chuck Stoneburner. You`re the foster father of Joshua Young, you are the father of a young boy -- at the time when this went down, he was just 15 years old. Killing a child is pretty aggravating. Wouldn`t you agree with that, Mr. Stoneburner?
STONEBURNER: Yes, I would.
GRACE: Mr. Stoneburner, you`re hearing Mark Hall, the attorney for Gouker. What is your response, Stoneburner?
STONEBURNER: Well, obviously, I`m not an attorney. I don`t know the laws that count in this situation, but Gouker has been (inaudible) probably all of his life, has spent quite a bit of time in jail, and now is convicted of murder. So I believe he`s incarcerated to the point where hopefully he won`t be able to get back out and hurt anybody else.
GRACE: Well, he`s up for parole in 20 years. I don`t know if he`ll make it that long before he gets out. Out to Dave Mack, radio talk show host. Dave, weigh in.
MACK: Nancy, you know, this little kid, Josh, does not look like -- he looks like a little kid in court, but his actions were much different. One of the things that scares me, you mentioned the beating of the dog, Nancy. But the reality was Josh Young filmed that beating on his own phone. So his dad had a grip on him like nobody`s business.
GRACE: Whoa, wait a minute. Wait a minute. The boy videoed his father killing the dog?
MACK: Yes, ma`am. And he talked to it with other students. There are people that are afraid of Josh Young. Granted, not when he was in foster care. He was a good kid then. But Josh Gouker got out. He`s a manipulator. He got out in September. In November he was back with Amanda, by March he had Josh and by May, Trey was dead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- is that fair?
GOUKER: Not everybody easily.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You find dumber people if you can`t control the ones you`re working with, right?
GOUKER: It makes life easier.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I suppose. Is tell the truth code for tell a lie?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are some things that you do to convey that message.
GOUKER: Sometimes you got to say it over and over until they say the right [ EXPLETIVE DELETED] story, but yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that`s what happened in Alabama on the phone?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is tell the truth?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need you tell the truth?
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And your loyalty lies with me.
GOUKER: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are real big on loyalty, aren`t you?
GOUKER: It appears.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. A little boy dead in Kentucky and now his own brother on trial for murder. Out to Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. Dave, I want to hear what you were telling me about the boy defendant, the brother on trial for murder.
MACK: Nancy, he does look like a sweet innocent little kid, and I`m sure he was a great kid when he was in foster care, but Josh Gouker is a monster, a manipulator, and Josh Young at 15 years old idolized his dad. He would do anything to impress his father. So when his father beat to death the dog -- and by the way the dog that he beat to death was Trey Zwicker`s puppy. And that`s the dog they videotaped beating. There are stories of Josh Young with a cat`s eyeball and going up to students saying "I`ve got my eye on you." There is also the story of Johara Riddle (ph), a friend, who testified last week, she said she was more scared of Josh Young than she was of his dad. So there`s a lot more to the story of Josh Young. Plus, if you notice, they`ve got him in oversize clothes to make him look more defenseless and younger.
GRACE: Dave, I`m very concerned about what you`re telling me about this boy. I want to go to his foster father, Mr. Stoneburner. You know, Mr. Stoneburner, the jury is not going to hear any of this. But if they did, that would be a nail in his coffin. Assuming what Dave Mack is telling us is true, because he`s relying on the people that relayed the story to him, what do you have to say to that? That`s so different from the boy you`re describing.
STONEBURNER: Well, I think that`s the key you said right there, Nancy, is the story that was relayed. The videotaping of the beating of the dog, to my knowledge, there`s no proof that Josh was the one that videotaped it, or that the videotape exists. Secondly, the baseball bat that was alleged to have been brought in at 1:00 in the morning with blood on it, where is that? That`s hard proof evidence that could be used, but the only hard proof evidence we have is that Josh Gouker confessed, the way that he confessed was with a pipe, he stepped on Trey Zwicker`s hand, hit him, took the pipe out of Trey Zwicker`s hand and then hit him with it. And that`s consistent with what the coroner said.
So -- and as we said earlier in the broadcast, innocent until proven guilty. Josh Young has been in juvenile detention, essentially jail, since he was 15. He`s now 17. And he`s just now being tried. He`s been in there with other individuals that bring in their bad habits and bad situations. Truly this is going to be, when we get Josh out of there, some time to get him acclimated back into normal life.
GRACE: You know, back to you, Matt Zarrell. Where was Zwicker`s mother at 1:30 a.m.?
ZARRELL: Nancy, she was sleeping in her bed. Now what she says is she claims that Joshua Gouker was asleep at 1:00 a.m. And then she went to bed --
GRACE: Wait. Wait. Matt Zarrell, hold on a minute. The murder victim, Trey Zwicker, the little boy, mother is in bed making a porn movie --
ZARRELL: Correct.
GRACE: -- with Gouker?
ZARRELL: Correct.
GRACE: OK. And Gouker killed her son`s dog, beat him to death, and she`s in there making a porn movie with him? Am I going crazy? Did you just hear that, Zarrell?
ZARRELL: Yes, you`re correct, Nancy.
GRACE: So the mother is back there having a porn movie, which, you know what, not judging, but this man is straight out of jail and she`s got him in the house with her boy?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy. In fact, Trey Zwicker`s biological father, who we`ve had on the show, has said publicly he did not want his son, Trey Zwicker, around Joshua Gouker.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You pulled it off, you walked away (inaudible), right? You had the whole neighborhood about to start a race war over this.
GOUKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Paranoia was pretty high.
GOUKER: Yeah. I figured there were going to be other people get killed by this, probably.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you hear that one almost did over this?
GOUKER: Not for months, but yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, yes, to just top it all off, the father said he first tried to blame two other little boys for the murder, two African-American little boys, to basically start a race riot, and he laughs about it when he`s asked about it. Out to our Eris Humer, psychotherapist joining me out of L.A. What is the mother`s role in all of this? Why is she slung up with a jailbird in her home after he kills her son`s dog and she`s back there making a porn video with him, and then he kills her son? Where is she in this scenario?
HUMER: And not only that, she also aborted big Josh`s child a few months back. So they were in a relationship, broke up, got back together.
GRACE: OK, wait, wait. I am not jumping on the abortion bandwagon. One way or the other. Because if you check the Constitution and you check the current laws, that`s not a crime. So my concern right now is why would a mother bring in a convicted felon with a record like this and expose her child to him?
HUMER: Well, Josh was a sociopath, so he absolutely manipulated (inaudible) scenario. He had admitted to manipulating child protective services, that living with her is a complete front. He manipulated her. He coerced her. He`s a pathological liar. He`s very charming. He is to the book, a sociopath. So he manipulated her as well. She had been in a relationship with him in the past. They had a history of this love relationship, and here she is again allowing him back in the house. So there is a love addiction there.
GRACE: That`s a really good point. To Mark Hall, this is the lawyer for Joshua Gouker, the father who claims he is the one who did the murder, now that his other son`s on trial for murder. Where is this mother during all this? OK, hold on. His satellite took a hit. Matt, where is the mother during all of this? Is she in court? Where is she?
ZARRELL: Amanda McFarland testified last week about what happened the night of the murder. She has been in court watching the proceedings, and as you`ve mentioned, a lot of criticism has come down on her, specifically because people were concerned about Trey Zwicker being around Josh Gouker from the get-go.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Marine Lance Corporal Irvin Ceniceros (ph), 21, Clarksville, Arkansas. Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, National Defense Service Medal. Parents Ignacio and Maria, brothers Ivan and Abraham, sister Carla. Irvin Ceniceros, American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dad, I did it. Dad, trust me. They won`t know it`s me and they can`t prove it`s you.
GOUKER: That`s what I said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible) you bet your life that it was the Ridgeway (ph) kids, right?
GOUKER: Yes.
It`s not easy to be a mastermind when you`re dealing with dumb people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Is one Young brother guilty of murdering the other? Two brothers at the heart of this controversy, the boy found bloody and beaten, face down in a ditch behind a local school. On trial, his own brother.
Question, out to you, Dr. Bill Manion, joining me tonight, medical examiner. He`s joining me from Philadelphia. Dr. Manion, the defense M.E. says he can tell the difference as to what the weapon was between a bat and the metal rod. What they`re trying to suggest is it wasn`t the bat, the bloody bat, the witness places in the hand of the boy defendant, that he was instead killed with a metal rod. That distances the boy defendant from the murder. Do you really think an M.E. can tell it was a pipe versus a bat?
DR. BILL MANION, NEW JERSEY MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes. These are called pattern injuries. And just from experience with beatings, where we recover the instrument used in the beatings, we can get a pretty good idea in this case of the diameter of the instrument that was used. I also thought it was interesting that while they said his bloody clothes and this baseball bat were allegedly thrown away, I don`t know if the prosecution made an attempt to get his shoes, because oftentimes, blood spatter will be left on shoes at a scene. And that could have tied him into the scene, Joshua Young. But right now there`s no evidence to tie him into the scene, other than this Cassie Gouker, who seems to be a former lover of Joshua Gouker. And, of course, Amanda McFarland, who`s quite angry at Joshua Gouker and is trying -- may have a motive to get back at Joshua Young to punish his dad. So there`s no physical evidence to link this Joshua Young to this crime scene right now. That`s a big problem for me.
GRACE: Everyone, we are live at the courthouse. And we`ll bring you the trial as it progresses.
Court is over for the day. But Dr. Drew is up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
