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Nancy Grace
Female Teacher Has Sex Relationship With 12-Year-Old Boy Student
Aired September 24, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Riverview, Florida, a teacher of the year teaching a lot more than reading, writing and arithmetic, a married mother, 29-year-old Ethel Anderson, accused of repeatedly having sex relationships with a 12-year-old little boy as over 230 pages of sex text messages emerge.
Bombshell tonight. The teacher of the year`s defense? Well, teacher claims it was all in the name of learning therapy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The teacher accused of having a sexual relationship with a 12-year-old boy was the teacher of the year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was rubbing my legs, kissing on my ears, neck, stuff like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Tell me you love me because I`m madly in love with you."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You keep making me so happy."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 5th grade Mango Elementary teacher is charged with performing oral sex on the boy, as well as several occasions of inappropriate touching.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She made me make out and tongue kiss.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She sent to the boy texts about porn and sexual acts to make him a better student. She called it sex therapy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Why don`t you tell me you love me? I can`t wait to marry you."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was my purpose, was to gain his attention. And yes, I did it in an inappropriate way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "It would mean, like, Are you my BF?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Yes. Yes."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Basically, a diary of their relationship. That is evidence. What better evidence than her own words?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Why? Would you be my BF?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "No. I do. I was just making sure."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will not let my kids play around her at all. I can`t trust her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, La Mesa (ph). Wow, that Coke sure tastes funny. That`s what a married mom of three said when her husband got her a soda at Jack-in-the-Box. And she was right. But it wasn`t Jack-in-the- Box`s fault.
Tonight, a husband accused of having a mistress and poisoning his wife with antifreeze. He fires back it wasn`t him, that she was jealous and despondent over his mistress and she poisoned herself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is Sally McKey Munsey (ph) and her husband, Patrick, in happier times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A married couple of nine years reportedly on the rocks after the wife alleges she caught her husband cheating on line.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: McKey Munsey was rushed to Sharpe-Grossmont (ph) hospital twice for severe abdominal pains.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told police her husband may have put antifreeze in her soda.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She believes that her husband may have poisoned her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: McKey Munsey told investigators her husband may have added the poison to a fast food soft drink that he had access, saying it tasted weird, like bad Coke.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anyone knows about antifreeze poisoning, it can be quite sweet, actually.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here in the couple`s home, investigators confiscated a bottle of antifreeze and questioned Patrick Munsey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did it get into her system? Did she do it herself? Was it an accident, or did somebody intentionally do it? And if so, who?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live, Riverview, Florida. The teacher of the year teaching a lot more than reading, writing and arithmetic, a married mother, 29-year-old Ethel Anderson, accused of repeatedly having sex relations with a 12-year-old little boy -- 12 years old! This as 230 pages of sex text messages emerge. Her defense? She claims it was all in the name of learning therapy. Well, I`m very interested to hear what kind of therapy that is.
Straight out to Peter Jamison, writer with the courts, "Tampa Bay Times." Peter, did she actually say this was to help him learn?
PETER JAMISON, "TAMPA BAY TIMES" (via telephone): That was her claim. And her main defense against these allegations is that she was seeking to help him, as a young boy who was beginning to be interested in sexual things. And that somehow, by sending him these very explicit text messages, as well as other text messages referring to their relationship and the possibility of them getting married and having a baby one day, that she was somehow engaging him in his education.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at some of the text messages. Over 230 pages have emerged. Liz, can you pull those up, please? And I don`t mean 230 text messages. I mean pages of text messages.
OK. Oh, tingles just reading that! You can start at the beginning, Liz. Take a look at the text messages. "Body insecurities. You may not - - I`m afraid you won`t like what you see. If I were cuddling my hubby, would you be mad?" "I`m madly in love with you. You keep making me so happy."
This is not learning therapy. "My heart is seriously pounding right now thinking about you. I don`t want my husband. I want you." This to a 12-year-old little boy!
"Why don`t you tell me you love me? I can`t wait to marry you." He`s 12. You`re going to be waiting a while.
"I`m playing games. So are we seriously going out, you and me, like, you`re my boyfriend?" I wonder if the husband was sitting by her on the sofa. "Would you be my boyfriend?" "No, I was just making sure."
Uh-huh. OK. There you see Ethel Anderson and the underage boy just 12 years old -- 230 pages of sex text messages have emerged.
Straight out to Jean Casarez, HLN legal correspondent. Jean, take it from the top.
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Ethel Anderson had been the teacher of this little 12-year-old boy. She currently wasn`t the teacher, but he needed some extra help. So he started coming to her house on Saturdays for tutoring. That`s how this all began.
He didn`t want to be tutored, so he`s sitting on the sofa, and she comes over and starts to talk to him, touch his legs, starts to kiss him on his neck and on his ear, and it progressed from there.
Finally, he tells his mother, Nancy, because he doesn`t want to keep hiding his phone because he knows of all those text messages. His mother gets fitted with a wire. She confronts the teacher, based on the teacher`s biblical and spiritual teachings that she believes in, and the teacher confesses to what she did with her 12-year-old child.
GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You got my attention when you said something about biblical teachings. Who had -- who had the biblical teaching, the faith in the biblical teaching?
CASAREZ: The teacher. The teacher did. And so the mother appealed to her by saying, You have spiritual beliefs, and you did this? And she admitted that she did do things, but she did it to help her son.
GRACE: She did it to help her son.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Jason Oshins, New York defense attorney. Also with me out of the Miami jurisdiction, Eric Schwartzreich. All right, Eric Schwartzreich, let`s hear your best defense.
ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think when Crosby, Stills & Nash sang "You need to teach your children well," they did not envision this.
The problem is, Nancy, is digital fingerprints are everywhere. And the defense that they`re using that this was somehow helping him or teaching him or parroting (ph) what the prosecutor had, it`s very difficult.
The only saving grace is that, unfortunately, in our society, it`s different. Women teachers are often viewed differently when it`s a woman on a boy. The problem is that this is a 12-year-old boy. I mean, there`s no excuse. There`s no reason. It`s going to be very, very difficult. I mean, perhaps maybe she`ll take the stand, they`ll have her testify, and they`ll say this is a woman that has severe mental health issues.
They`re going to have to overcome those text messages, Nancy, and that`s a lot of work to do and very difficult for the defense in a case like this.
GRACE: Jason Oshins, what is she going to do? What possible defense can she -- I mean, learning therapy?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That was actually, Nancy, the prosecutor suggested that, and the defendant willingly went along with that in terms of trying to, you know, convince and look at the jurors that this teacher of the year, as Jean Casarez mentioned, was somehow beyond actually doing this, but somehow in her convoluted way, thought she was helping this boy, who had, you know, learning problems.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Joe in New York. Hi, Joe. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey. My question is, is how come these people -- I kind of like the way he said. How come these people, like, teachers and, you know, (INAUDIBLE) like the fourth story in 10 years or 12 years I`ve heard about teachers having sex with students.
And it just seems like nobody is doing something to check backgrounds. (INAUDIBLE) they clear it. They do a good background check, but yet you turn around, and this happens. I mean, I`m afraid to bring my kids to school because of this. I mean, who monitors these teachers and makes sure that they`re doing something right?
GRACE: Out to special guest joining us tonight to answer Joe in New York`s question, Owen LaFave. We all remember Debra LaFave, one of the most notorious teacher child molesters. His ex-wife had sex with a 14- year-old student, a full-blown relationship. And when you see Deb LaFave and Owen LaFave at their wedding, they look like the happiest couple that there ever was, a stunning bride in white.
It wasn`t long after this that Deb LaFave was busted for sex with a student. That`s outright child abuse.
Owen LaFave, Joe in New York is right. There seems to be no safeguards on teachers, no one monitoring what`s going on in the classroom.
OWEN LAFAVE, EX-HUSBAND OF DEBRA LAFAVE: Well, Nancy, I will say that the school system really does a good job on the front end of doing the background checks...
GRACE: That`s true.
LAFAVE: ... and uncovering anything that`s -- you know, they do do a great job. Where the shortfall is, is after these teachers are hired, there`s not the level of training that they need. They need comprehensive training and something that`s reinforced throughout the year, as opposed to just, you know, as part of these teacher handbook or employee handbook, and you sign off and you`ve got your 30-minute training and you`re done.
I mean, this something that needs to be done on a repeated basis, as well as the co-workers need to be diligent in identifying behaviors that are inappropriate.
GRACE: You know, it`s very disturbing, Owen LaFave, now that I`m sending my children to school to think that there are parents out there who have to worry that the female teacher is going to molest the boy students. And we are seeing it over and over and over.
Now, in this case, Owen, the teacher would actually have the boy come to her home and the sex relationship was happening in the home. Now, that`s very different from what happened with Deb LaFave, who you have divorced, I might add.
LAFAVE: Yes. Yes. I mean, very different and -- I`m sorry, Nancy. Go ahead.
GRACE: Clark Goldband, what exactly do we know about when, where, who, what, where, why and how?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, according to this 12- year-old boy, the sex acts started about five weeks into the private tutoring at the home. It started with some kissing, mouth kissing, as he said, tongue kissing, some kisses and caresses on the lips and the cheeks, but soon turned very, very sexual, including sexual acts on both the boy and the teacher, both of their private parts...
GRACE: Liz, put Clark up, please. Clark, you`re a grown married man with a child. I don`t know why you`re having a problem stating the facts. Anderson performed oral sex...
GOLDBAND: OK. Yes.
GRACE: ... on the child on two occasions?
GOLDBAND: Yes. I have the document right here.
GRACE: And?
GOLDBAND: And he manually manipulated his bare (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on two occasions, rubbed his (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on the exterior of his clothing numerous times. Touched her breasts both bare and clothed (EXPLETIVE DELETED) area (EXPLETIVE DELETED) clothed on numerous occasions, licked the teacher`s nipples on one occasion, and you know, some more graphic acts to follow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was my purpose, was to gain his attention.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More than 230 explicit texts Anderson admits to sending the boy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her story that she was sexting the young boy to keep him interested in school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The former Mango Elementary teacher of the year...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charged with having a sexual relationship with a 12-year-old boy she`d been tutoring.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Charged with performing oral sex on the boy, as well as several occasions of inappropriate touching.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While tutoring him in math at the Riverside home she shares with her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I don`t want my husband. I want you."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says the Saturday tutoring sessions changed when Anderson started to touch him and perform oral sex on him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Teacher of the year now accused of molesting, sexually molesting, a 12-year-old boy student. It certainly is not the first time we`ve heard this claim. No one can forget Mary Kay Letourneau, Debra LaFave -- the list goes on.
Joining me now, Owen LaFave, Debra LaFave`s ex-husband. Owen, were there any signs -- I mean, when you look -- we look at this teacher, when we look at Debra LaFave, and we hear all these facts, they`re so upsetting to parents. But from your perspective, you didn`t have a clue what was going on.
LAFAVE: Nancy, it happened very quickly. And the thing that is a little disturbing is there are similarities in the fact that my wife was very well respected. She was one of the favorite teachers of the students. Her parents got along with her well. And I mean, if there was any signs that -- it happened very quickly and very briefly right before she was arrested. So very little warning sign.
GRACE: You know, I`m taking a look at "about" Mrs. Anderson. Mrs. Anderson is a 29-year-old teacher and mother, accused of molesting a 12- year-old boy student. And this is what she states about herself. "My name is Ethel Anderson. I`ve been teaching at Mango Elementary almost six years. I graduated University of South Florida with my bachelor`s degree. You are likely to find me organizing play dates for my daughter, browsing books at the library or swimming with my family at the YMCA. I`m a proud wife and mother. My husband and I together nearly 11 years. My daughter is 4."
All right. Judy Ho, psychologist, how does this jibe with the fact that she is a child molester?
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, she certainly is presenting herself as a very stable family woman. And I think sometimes, they go under the radar like that because people don`t suspect women teachers who seem to have devoted their lives to bettering the education of children.
And for her to say that this was education therapy to get the boy`s attention -- what a self-sacrifice she`s making by performing sexual acts to get the boy to get better grades. I mean, that is seriously a delusional comment, don`t you think? It was really, really ridiculous when I heard that that was one of her comments.
GRACE: But the reality is that men child molesters present very differently to the public than they are behind closed doors with children.
To Ben Levitan, wireless cellular telecommunications expert. Ben, over 230 pages -- not texts, but pages -- were recovered. There were probably more. So about how many texts, sex texts are we talking about?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Oh, Nancy, when you get the data sheets from the phone company that I -- you know, I work with these -- in cases every day. There`s probably 30 text messages per page. And where -- you have to understand that the cell phone companies only keep about five days` worth of text messages. The police did a good job to get a court order out to the phone company to get these preserved. We don`t know how many text messages were already disposed of by the phone company.
GRACE: To Peter Jamison, writer of the courts at the "Tampa Bay Times." Peter, has the husband divorced Ethel Anderson? And what`s happened to the little girl?
JAMISON: Well, those are two very good questions. The husband has not divorced Ethel Anderson, that we`re aware of. There`s no record of a divorce or any divorce proceedings going on.
The little girl presumably is with her father`s relatives. We don`t know except that she 6 years old. And you know, presumably some of this will become cleared at Ethel Anderson`s sentencing hearing next month.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-nine-year-old Ethel Anderson charged with having a sexual relationship with a 12-year-old boy she`d been tutoring.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anderson told jurors she sent the boy texts about porn and sexual acts to make him a better student.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "My heart is seriously pounding right now thinking about you."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She called it sex therapy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What better evidence than her own words?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To make him a better student? We are taking your calls. Out to Elvee in Maryland. Hi. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My question is, has she had, like, a psychological evaluation? There`s something wrong with this lady.
GRACE: Good question. And you know what, Elvee? So many people think that when a woman is charged with child molestation. Can I -- do I still have Elvee with me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes, you do.
GRACE: Can I ask you why -- when a man molests, we don`t think, Oh, he must be insane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no, no, no.
GRACE: But we do think that when it`s a woman. Why do you think that, may I ask?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think men or women or -- there`s something wrong inside of them if anybody touches a kid. I mean -- I mean, it takes some sick individual to do that. I mean, I`m a mother of nine. Trust me, if somebody touched my kid inappropriately, they wouldn`t make the news, I would make the news for killing that person.
GRACE: You know what, Elvee? Well put.
Jean Casarez, HLN legal correspondent, do we know about any claim of depression or insanity or any type of mental defect?
CASAREZ: No. But here are the facts. She was his teacher in the 1st grade and a little bit in the 4th and the 5th grade. So she knew of him. And that state of mind that she knew of him and then sort of taking her (sic) to her home -- that`s a really definitive, affirmative act on her part.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Just watching TV. You?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Playing games. So are we seriously going out?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deputies say Anderson would invite that 12-year- old boy back to her home here in Riverview and then engage in inappropriate touching and oral sex.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At that point is when he made the comment, Keep playing because you`re going to lose your job.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "My heart is seriously pounding right now thinking about you."
"I don`t want my husband. I want you."
"Why don`t you tell me you love me?"
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shocked, surprised, disappointed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t do that with a 12-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anderson admitted to sending the student more than 230 pages of racy text messages.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I can`t wait to marry you."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s not the first time accusations like this have surfaced. Here you see a 29-year-old mother and wife who claims you could probably find her browsing for books at the library or arranging play dates for her little girl, charged with outright sex with a 12-year-old student. Specifically, Clark Goldband, what are the allegations?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, I`ll read it right from the documents. I want to caution those with small children to perhaps turn down the sound just for a moment. Ethel Anderson touched the victim on the (CENSORED) with her hands and mouth approximately seven times, and requested him to touch her (CENSORED) and chest areas. The documents go on to read -- Anderson had touched him on the (CENSORED), displayed her breasts, performed oral sex on him, and allowed him to digitally penetrate her (CENSORED). He disclosed that the teacher had performed oral sex on him on two occasions, manually manipulated his bare (CENSORED) on two occasions, and rubbed his (CENSORED) on the exterior of his clothing numerous times. Anderson had--
GRACE: Sorry about that. Very quickly to Eric Schwartzreich and Jason Oshins. Unleash the lawyers. Schwartzreich, I think that the defense actually has something going for them, and that is, if you listen to Elvee in Maryland who obviously does not like child molesters, she said, has she had a psychological exam? There`s got to be something wrong with her.
I think this is very hard for jurors to accept in their head and their heart, and that`s what a true verdict is, to a moral and reasonable certainty, reasonable head, moral heart, that a teacher, a mother, a wife, would do this? So they come into the courtroom from the position, they think about their teachers. I think about my teachers. I could not imagine this, and they project that onto the defendant. That`s what they`ve got going for them.
SCHWARTZREICH: Nancy, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, you said it. When it comes to female jurors, people have to think in their minds, it`s a woman. She wouldn`t do this.
GRACE: Female defendants.
SCHWARTZREICH: Right, excuse me, female defendant, I apologize. There must be something wrong with her. Now, we`re seeing more and more of this, with teachers, but we`re seeing more and more of these female teachers with these accusations, and I think the jurors, with a mind-set, when they come to the courtroom, they believe there`s got to be something mentally wrong, and I think it`s almost easier to defend a woman accused of these accusations than it is a man. Because anytime you--
GRACE: Totally, yes.
SCHWARTZREICH: Any time you go in front of a jury with an accusation like this, a jury is looking at the lawyer, they`re looking at the client like they`re all perverts. But when it comes to the female, there`s a strike starting for her. And it`s almost easier for the defense and more difficult for the prosecutors.
The problem here, Nancy, is this kid`s 12 years old. Any kid`s a problem. It`s a 12-year-old boy. It`s a baby. So I think that`s the problem in this case. As a woman, it`s easier for her to have a defense attorney, because the -- jurors are--
GRACE: I agree.
SCHWARTZREICH: This is a woman. She wouldn`t do this.
GRACE: I tell you, Jason Oshins, what is the most damning thing, in addition to the 12-year-old boy`s testimony, are these 230 pages. Not 230 texts, Jason, 230 pages. You just heard Ben Levitan, I mean, he is the expert in this field. He said -- I mean, this is probably the last five to ten days that they could pull up. You know? They don`t even have it all.
But this is nothing new. It`s a phenomena. Look at these teacher sex scandals. There`s Carrie McCandless. Remember her? Brittni Colleps. Deb LaFave. Owen is with us tonight, taking your calls. Of course, Mary Kay Letourneau, she ended up marrying her little boy victim. Pamela Rogers Turner, Sarah Jones. There`s a series. It goes on and on and on.
What do you do? You`re the defense lawyer.
OSHINS: Well, listen, Nancy, I think societally, and I think counsel has covered it, and so have you. Societally, we`re not willing to buy in completely yet.
GRACE: I believe it.
OSHINS: You gave a litany of those women accused of it, and we hear from Owen LaFave, societally we have to be able to condition ourselves that sex crimes are going to come from men and from women, and we can`t tolerate it as a society. We have to draw a very fine line, and we have to, as Owen said, we have to do and review our teachers and see if there are any histories or any incidents that might be pushing us in that direction.
GRACE: To Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, toxicologist, expert. My question is this, there would not be -- unlike with a girl victim, there would not be any physical evidence. Maybe some DNA evidence immediately after the sex contact, but unlike a girl child victim, on a boy child victim, you`re not going to be able to go to the jury and say, look, one, two, three, four.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: You`re right. What you`re getting at is progressive irreversible changes in the male. And that doesn`t happen, and it puts the prosecutor at a disadvantage in this case. You`re right. 100 percent.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to go back out to Owen LaFave, Deb LaFave`s ex-husband. You lived through this nightmare, when your wife was accused of sex with one of her students. And I hate it when people refer to it that way. It`s child molestation. What type of treatment, Owen, did you get? What kind of comments were thrown your way over your wife`s misconduct?
LAFAVE: Nancy, it was horrific. I mean, essentially, everyone pointed the blame at me. Something was wrong with me. You know, whether that I was not performing or taking care of my wife appropriately. Or if I was a homosexual. There was no blame placed on her. Everybody assumed there was an issue with me. And in the midst of dealing with the fact that my wife did molest a child, you know, I was dealing from the public outlash taking their, I guess, you know, opinion out on my personal character.
GRACE: Abuse.
LAFAVE: Yes, abuse on my personal character.
GRACE: I don`t know how you managed to live through it, and hold your head up high. To Pamela in South Carolina. Hi, Pam. What`s your question?
CALLER: Hi. I want to say I love your show. I love you. You`re great. I was just commenting on that teacher with that young kid. What is wrong with people nowadays? Do they have psychological problems?
GRACE: But, you know, Pamela, it`s easy. That`s what I was saying. Is she crazy? But I mean that in the lay sense. The street vernacular. I don`t mean she`s legally crazy. But what do you think would be an appropriate sentence for her, upon conviction, Pamela?
CALLER: I don`t know if a mental institution would work, but I`d be worried about her own children, too. You know? She did it once. She`ll do it again.
GRACE: That`s my feeling. And that`s a proven fact about child molesters.
Everybody, as we go to break, family album is back with your photos. Tonight here`s the Virginia family, the Sextons. Pedro, Andre, Samantha, Gabriel, Ethan and Hannah. Aren`t they a beautiful family? They love traveling and being together. Share your photos and click on Nancy`s family album.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Patrick Muncie (ph) had allegedly been cheating on his wife of almost ten years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said she caught him cheating and Muncie (ph) tried to kill her by poisoning her with antifreeze.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have interviewed the husband. He is still a possible suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Blood tests reveal classic signs of antifreeze poisoning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: La Mesa police served a search warrant on the home, seizing several plastic cups and a bottle of antifreeze from the garage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now a new twist. The husband claiming she poisoned herself. Claiming in court documents that, quote, "Mrs. Muncie had a history of attempting to commit suicide."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s absurd. She had no reason to poison herself. I think he`s just trying to formulate a defense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: She poisons herself? OK. So they go through the drive- through. She gets a soda, a soft drink, a coke, and, she says, whoa, that tastes funny. Well, she was right. But it wasn`t Jack-in-the-Box`s fault. Her soda was laced with antifreeze. Straight out to Michael Christian, investigative reporter and producer.
Michael Christian, as part of many cases you and I have covered, one of them dealt with antifreeze. As I recall, it was Lynn Turner, who was accused of murdering not only her boyfriend but her husband with antifreeze. As part of your investigation, you actually tasted antifreeze. What did it taste like?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: I did, Nancy, and I don`t encourage other people to do this, please don`t do this at home, but as part of the investigation, I did taste it, and it is very, very sweet. It doesn`t really have a flavor. It`s just an immense sweetness, and you could easily understand, as was brought out in that trial and others, that if you put something like that in something that was very sweet already, a soft drink, Jell-o has been suggested. A pina colada. Something like that. It very well might be undetectable if you just get a very strong sweetness.
GRACE: Well, I just can`t believe it. Now, the husband, who is in the middle of an affair, all right? We know he`s shacked up with somebody else, and now he is claiming he didn`t do this. That she poisoned herself. Michael, just take it from the top.
CHRISTIAN: The story is it`s a man named Patrick Muncie. He`s 50 years old. He`s a fiberoptics engineer.
GRACE: An engineer?
(CROSSTALK)
CHRISTIAN: -- and their three adopted children live in La Mesa, California, which is near San Diego.
GRACE: Whoa, you said he is an engineer?
CHRISTIAN: And she had to go to the emergency room. She was having severe abdominal pains. In fact, she went twice. The second time she was put on kidney dialysis. She had all the classic symptoms of antifreeze poisoning, and the hospital believed that she was indeed poisoned by antifreeze. She went through kidney dialysis. She is more or less OK, but her doctor has said in court papers, quote/unquote, going through the kidney dialysis saved her life, as she surely would have died without medical intervention. She`s a very lucky woman.
GRACE: To Dr. William Morrone, joining me out of Madison Heights. She went to the E.R. not once but twice, with severe abdominal pain. What would happen to the human body upon consumption of antifreeze?
MORRONE: Well, the first thing that happens is if you take too much, it has kind of the same effect as alcohol. It affects your judgment. But after you`ve consumed it, it`s in your stomach, it`s in your kidneys, and it goes to your brain, and it turns to crystals. These crystals are razor blade sharp, and they do tremendous amount of damage, and there is no way to get them out. So it`s like having razor blades inside your body, and the chemical structure doesn`t change. Only something like dialysis would save your life. It would be very painful, internal organ pain, and altered perception. It`s a terrible thing.
GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest from San Diego, is Cassandra Hearn. And this is the wife`s lawyer. Sally McKey Muncie`s lawyer. Cassandra, thank you so much for being with us.
CASSANDRA HEARN, ATTORNEY: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Cassandra, you`re a pretty well-known attorney in that area. I`m glad you`re on the case. I want to find out how Sally first knew something was wrong.
HEARN: Well, I`ll tell you, on the first day that Sally was poisoned, she had a very drastic physical reaction to it. Such that she knew immediately after the consumption that she needed to get herself to a hospital, and she needed to get there ASAP.
GRACE: Did she know at that time her husband was having an affair?
HEARN: You know, I believe that she did. However, there were some other issues that were going on in the family at the time. And the affair, while certainly it was something that was startling and upsetting for her, was nothing compared to some of the other issues that were happening, that, really, gave him the motive to want to do this to her.
GRACE: OK. Wait a minute. You can`t just throw that out there, Cassandra Hearn, because, you know, if I found out my husband was having an affair, I go get the shotgun. All right? And I don`t even have a shotgun, but I`d get one. So -- what could be worse? What`s worse than finding out your husband is shacked up?
HEARN: Well, for many women, that might be the worst thing possible, but for Sally, you know, she has some other wonderful things that were going on in her life with her family, and so the cheating may have just been a distraction. But unfortunately, I can`t disclose yet what the other issues were.
GRACE: OK. I get it. You`re not going to tell me yet. I respect that. Cassandra Hearn is joining me. This is the wife`s lawyer. Please, tell me that their divorce is final.
HEARN: Yes. I came onto the case on the 16th and on the 17th we filed the divorce.
GRACE: Whew! OK. That`s good to know. Now, what about his claim, Cassandra, that your client poisoned herself? That she intentionally put herself through, as you just heard Dr. Morrone claimed, antifreeze turning into little crystals that feel like razor blades in your body. He`s claiming she did it to herself, because she was so jealous over his girlfriend, she was despondent?
HEARN: Well, I think you just kind of nailed the hammer on the head there. What person in their right mind would do that? And certainly not a loving, caring mother of three. Certainly not any human would want to go through that kind of physical torture, not once, but twice.
GRACE: Not only that, I mean, he`s got a great job and a lot of education, a fiberoptic engineer, I guess that comes with complete insurance. But he ain`t all that and a bag of chips. I wouldn`t go drinking antifreeze over him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Says she was poisoned by antifreeze. Muncie has allegedly been cheating on his wife of almost 10 years. According to the wife, she caught her husband Patrick Muncie cheating online. Sally McKey Muncie was suddenly hospitalized twice over a three-day period with what her doctor ultimately diagnosed as classic signs of antifreeze poisoning. Shortly after, she feels sick and believed her husband put antifreeze in her soda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Michael Christian, investigative reporter and producer. We are taking your calls, and with me is the wife`s lawyer, Cassandra Hearn. Michael Christian, come on, his claim? She poisoned herself? Like she was going to go through all of that pain and suffering, to the ER two times? Antifreeze turning into crystals like razor blades in her body, come on. Look at him. He`s certainly not ugly, he`s got a great job. Probably makes a lot of money, he is really educated. But she would put herself in the hospital twice over him? She would willingly drink antifreeze? That`s his defense?
CHRISTIAN: The act of actually drinking the antifreeze probably wouldn`t be that unpleasant. It`s very sweet, it wouldn`t maybe taste that bad. But certainly once these effects happen, these abdominal pains, these crystals forming in your body, anybody who`s gone through that once certainly isn`t going to do it again. It`s just inconceivable to me.
GRACE: To Judy Ho, a psychologist in LA. I know Michael Christian is right that it doesn`t taste that bad when you down it, with maybe a Diet Coke or a Pepsi or something, but this skull and crossbones on the front would kind of, you know, that would ruin me enjoying my Diet Coke.
HO: Right, Nancy. This is not an act she would intentionally do unless she wanted to suffer in a very prolonged way. If she was actually trying to commit suicide. And the fact that she went to the ER on her own, twice, doesn`t that tell us that she was trying to save her own life and she didn`t want to die? So I don`t think his argument holds any water.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Air Force Senior Airman Mark Forester, 29, Hawizel (ph), Alabama. Silver Star, Bronze Star. Purple Heart, parents Ray and Pat. One sister, three brothers, Mark Forester, American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It comes back as positive for antifreeze, how did it get into her system?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A search warrant executed at the couple`s home turned up a container of antifreeze in the garage, as well as several used plastic cups which will now be tested for the sweet tasting toxin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me tonight is Cassandra Hearn. This is the wife`s lawyer, the husband now saying she poisoned herself with antifreeze. To Clark Goldband. Now, Cassandra is keeping a lid on some of the other goings on inside the family that may have been disturbing to her client, Sally. What can you tell me about a plot that had been hatched, allegedly by the husband? And this has not been confirmed yet, about bankruptcy papers?
GOLDBAND: According to our great researcher, he has been scouring through these documents as we speak, Nancy, and just learned that according to the wife, she was asked to sign a form that says the husband was not receiving any income during a time she claims he was actually working.
GRACE: So forgery on a bankruptcy document.
GOLDBAND: Yes, that`s what the wife is claiming in court documents.
GRACE: OK, so I assume that she wouldn`t do it.
GOLDBAND: Well, that, it does not say. But that is the allegation the wife has made.
GRACE: So in the middle of all this, he claims she drinks antifreeze, lands in the hospital twice. You know what out of jealousy over his other?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: If my husband had another girlfriend, after I got my shotgun, I`d say, you know what, you can have him. I`ll send him to your front porch, COD, cash on delivery, don`t send him back.
Everybody, Dr. Drew is up next. I`ll see you tomorrow tonight. 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
