Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Colorado Mom Beats Daughter`s Abuser to Death; Toddler Attacked and Killed by Grandma`s Pit Bulls
Aired September 26, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Englewood, Colorado. A suburban mom takes to Facebook to proclaim, I`m going to prison. Why? Because Mommy takes a baseball bat and beats a man to death after her 4- year-old little girl tells Mommy he sexually abuses her. Yes, Mommy sneaked up on the perp in an alley and beat him to death, head first. And she confesses outright to police.
But tell the truth. If you were Mommy, wouldn`t you?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The man lying lifeless in an alley is 42-year-old Denzle Rainey. The victim suffered a cracked skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Rainey was bleeding.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Broken ribs and arms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She beat him with a baseball bat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Injuries to vital organs, beaten and was left against the garage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never could have imagined that this would have happened on my block.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman, Forsythia Owen, reportedly admitted to officers she did it. She says he sexually abused a young girl she knew. She said she beat Rainey with a baseball bat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim, Rainey, had been sleeping in this alley for the last week.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) claims she spotted Owen just moments before the incident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was really strange that she was cutting through our back yard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forsythia Owen in this Englewood PD arrest affidavit said she beat Rainey with a baseball bat. She says he sexually abused a young girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been shocking. It`s been devastating. I hate to think that it was Forsythia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: And tonight, to Fulton (ph), California. Grandma`s pitbulls attack and murder a little toddler boy, eight pit bulls in and out of the home, that little toddler her own grandson. Tonight, why were the children left alone with eight pitbulls?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was gone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy, just 2 years old, mauled to death by a pack of pitbulls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Felony child endangerment resulting in the death of a child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy playing video games with his brother one moment, then savagely attacked by the family`s pitbulls the next.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His face was eaten, his neck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the child suffers extreme wounds to the upper body and dies. Tonight, the dogs also seized by authorities. Police say his uncle was supposed to be watching the boy. What happened?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live, Englewood, Colorado. A suburban mother takes to Facebook to proclaim, I`m going to jail. Why? Mommy takes a baseball bat and beats a man to death after her 4-year-old little girl tells Mommy he sexually abuses her. Oh, yes, Mommy sneaks up on the perp in an alley and beats him to death, head first.
Then Mommy confesses outright to police. In fact, she puts it on Facebook before she tells police. But if you were Mommy, wouldn`t you?
We are taking your calls. To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent. Jean, what do we know?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that that 4-year-old little girl, who was her daughter, said that this man touched her and sexually abused her.
We also know that the instrument of death was a baseball bat, in the mother`s own words. And listen to this. She not only hit him to death, she fractured his skull, laceration of the skull, two broken arms, a left broken hand, six broken ribs that perforated into the liver.
GRACE: OK, Jean, what that says to me is once she started beating him, she didn`t stop. She didn`t stop until she knew he was dead. Go back over his injuries again with me, Jean.
CASAREZ: Laceration to the skull, which resulted in a fracture to the skull, both arms broken, left hand broken, six ribs broken, laceration into the liver by those ribs.
But Nancy, when the police found him, he was bleeding profusely from his head. He was alive.
GRACE: You are seeing shots of 42-year-old Denzle Rainey. She sneaks up on Rainey in an alley and lights into him like a windmill in a tornado with a baseball bat. But why? She says her daughter reports Denzle Rainey had sexually molested her.
If this is true, she would not be the first parent to kill. Remember Ellie Nessler, the mom, Daniel Driver, the alleged molester? Well, Ellie Nessler didn`t quit until Daniel Driver was dead.
Then you`ve got Gary Plauche, the father, and Jeff Doucet, alleged molester. That was a gunshot wound in plain view. Jonathan Eddington, the father, Barry James, the alleged molester. James is dead. Andrew Cody, the father, Lee Britton, the alleged molester.
The Texas dad -- the Texas dad, as you all recall, and Jesus Mora-Florez, the alleged molester. We covered the case and demanded the father be let loose, set free. Long story short, that Texas dad had come up on his child, his little girl -- as I recall, she was 3 years old -- being molested in a field near the family picnic. And let`s just say that molester is no longer with us, thanks to the dad.
We are taking your calls. I want to go back to you, Jean Casarez. I understand that the mom is being held without bail tonight? Why is the judge not even granting her a bail amount, even if she can`t make it?
CASAREZ: Nancy, there is a constitutional right to bail. Maybe the hearing just has not come about yet because this is breaking as we speak.
But she makes no bones about it. She admits it. She even demonstrated to police exactly how she did it with that baseball bat. And she knew she should have an attorney, and she said, I should have an attorney, but she kept going and talking, and it was recorded.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sabrina, California. Hi, Sabrina. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering if she knew the abuser? And how long had the abuse been going on?
GRACE: Good question. Clark Goldband, also on the story. Clark, what do we know?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: We spoke with someone at the DA`s office, Nancy, who said that there was a connection between this dead alleged abuser and the mom. But it`s important to point out here the mom posted on Facebook, Nancy, even before she spoke with cops, Going to jail.
GRACE: You know, Clark, another issue. I want to talk about Denzle Rainey...
GOLDBAND: Yes.
GRACE: ... the departed, the late Denzle Rainey, age 42, allegedly beat to death with a bat, beaten to death with a bat because he, according to the mom, molested her 4-year-old little girl. What do we know about his criminal history?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, he does have a criminal history, and it dates back for quite a long time. It includes arrests on DUI, public intoxication and some other assorted misdemeanors.
GRACE: Drugs, drug possession, marijuana, flight from police, evasion. There`s quite -- let me just say, quite a number of brushes with the law with Mr. Denzle Rainey.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight from LA, Brian Claypool. Also with me, veteran trial lawyer, death penalty-qualified prosecutor, former senior attorney with the National District Attorneys office, Eleanor Odom.
All right, Eleanor, why no bond? Let me ask you this, El. Would you put her on trial for murder?
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, we can`t really have vigilante justice. But I think I`d have to know a little bit more.
GRACE: Whoa! Is that a yes? I wouldn`t put her on trial. I absolutely would not try this woman.
ODOM: Well, it would depend on what the evidence was, Nancy, and I`ll tell you why, because although I might say, yes, that`s great that she got rid of a molester, because I`m all about getting rid of molesters. However, we also have a system in where we have to put up our case, prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt...
GRACE: That`s not what I asked you, Eleanor.
ODOM: ... and give it to the jury.
GRACE: I asked, would you try her for murder? Because typically, in the decade that I prosecuted, if there was a case I really did not believe in, I could go to the elected district attorney -- and I did, and I said, I don`t want to prosecute this case. I don`t believe in this case. And he didn`t make me. He didn`t say, Do it or you`re fired. He just said, OK, you know, give it to another trial lawyer, see what they think. That`s exactly what I did.
There would be no way I would put this woman on trial. If she really believed that this man molested her 4-year-old girl, I wouldn`t try her!
ODOM: Well, maybe I wouldn`t personally, but I would not have a problem with it being on trial, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, I would.
ODOM: And I -- you know, there`s a lot of things that we have to look at with this case. And it`s sad. It`s terribly sad if her daughter`s molested. I`d want to know, has the daughter talked to the police yet? Has she done a forensic interview? What is the evidence of that? I think you need to know a little bit more before you make the determination...
GRACE: You know what?
ODOM: ... whether or not to try her.
GRACE: Brian Claypool, weigh in.
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I`m one of the lead lawyers on the Miramonte (ph) child abuse case out here in Los Angeles. I`ve interviewed so many kids who`ve been abused. Kids usually do not lie. So if this 4-year-old tells her mom that she was abused by this gentleman, if I was representing her, I would argue an insanity defense, get her psychiatric evaluation.
And I`ll tell you why, because if there was ever a jury that would acquit her, it would be this one, but you have to give the jury a reason why. And if there`s any credibility at all to this report of abuse, no reasonable juror out there is going to blame this mom for doing what she did.
GRACE: Put him up! Brian Claypool, I hear what you`re saying, but I wouldn`t argue insanity, I would argue justification in her mind. You get to tell the jury in her mind why this was justification. That`s what I think. And I think any jury in their right mind will agree.
I`m concerned as to why she hasn`t had a bond set for her yet. You know, back out to you, Clark Goldband. Tell me about her going on Facebook before she went to police.
GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy. It was before she spoke with police in a recorded interview on Monday that, in fact, this woman posted on Facebook, Going to prison. It was after -- after -- that Facebook post that she speaks with cops, allegedly confesses to murdering this alleged molester. And she demonstrates with an axe handle-type sway (ph) on how she killed this alleged molester with a baseball bat, breaking virtually many, many bones in his body.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Who`s my caller, Liz? Anne In Indiana. Hi, Anne. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. No -- in my eyes (ph), no homicide is justifiable. If I was the mother in this case, I would want to see this man rot in jail before he burned in hell.
When I was 16, I was a victim of rape and molestation. I went to a school teacher. I pressed charges. The man went to trial. He pled guilty. He was put on the sex offenders list. He could not stand trial because on his sentencing date, he got into a motorcycle accident. But you know, because he couldn`t stand trial and the case could no longer go on, he was on that list. He was unable two years ago get custody of his own children after (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Are you telling me he didn`t go to jail?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he did not, because he had got into a motorcycle accident, and the DA and the ADA (ph) on my case said he cannot stand trial because of his injuries. So that was my justice...
GRACE: Well, I believe I would have let -- I believe I would have let him get well and go on trial because, you know, Anne in Indiana, I`ve had a lot of cases where defendants became ill right on the eve of trial. And I would always let them recuperate and then put them on trial.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to police, the man was 42-year-old Denzle Rainey. He had been beaten and was left against the garage. Dowdy (ph) claims she spotted Owen just moments before the incident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was really strange that she was cutting through our back yard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman, Forsythia Owen, in this Englewood PD arrest affidavit, reportedly admitted to officers she did it. She said she beat Rainey with a baseball bat because she says he sexually abused a young girl she knew.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was shaking. He wasn`t sure what he had seen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim suffered a cracked skull, broken ribs and arms, and injuries to vital organs all in this spot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Liz, you kind of flashed through those pictures pretty quickly. Did I see a picture of the alleged sex abuser, Denzle Rainey, age 42, shooting a bird? Could you scroll through those photos again for me?
Welcome back, everybody. This is the man Mommy says molested her 4-year- old little girl. Well, Mommy lit into him with a baseball bat. He`s down in the morgue right now, and she`s in jail. I don`t think that`s fair.
Out to the lines. Christie. Hi, Christie. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It`s more of a comment.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think homicide is absolutely wrong. However, I have three children, and if I had to live with the death of any one of those children at the hands of another individual, it would be like living in jail regardless.
So I can`t say that I wouldn`t take a baseball bat to the person, as well. It`s not right, I understand that, but if I`m going to live in jail for the rest of my life, I may as well live in jail.
GRACE: Christie, let me tell you a story. Many, many years ago, just before my wedding, my fiance was murdered. He took five gunshot wounds to the head and the face. The rest of that story, Christie -- his killer has been paroled. He`s out. He`s walking free, OK?
So everybody can talk about justice happening in a court of law, but let me tell everybody there`s not always justice, OK? That`s an ideal we strive for. It`s not always what we get. And when you go to a jury -- think about tot mom. When you go to a jury, you don`t know what you`re going to get.
To the lines. Peter in Illinois. Hi, Peter. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Nancy. I think this mom should be put up on a pedestal. If it`s proved her daughter was molested, could she get off as self-defense?
GRACE: You know, Peter in Illinois, I don`t think she`s going to get off in self-defense. The reason is Denzle Rainey, 42 years old -- she snuck up on him in an alley and beat him to death with a Louisville slugger. So she was not -- there he is. Who`s he with, his good friend Captain Jack?
She was not defending herself. It would be defense of another, defense of a third person. However, there`s a problem with that, too, Peter in Illinois. The defense of a third person has to be defense of immediate physical harm. Can`t be, You hurt my child earlier. You`ve got to be defending your child at that moment. So self-defense won`t work. Self- defense of another won`t work. Justification? I`d put my money on that one, Peter in Illinois.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably going to need to call 911 because he thought our neighbor that lived across the street may have been back there bleeding.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Owen was well known in this community. She spoke often to neighbors, who say she`s a mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most of our conversations were just kind of, like, Hi, how`re you doing? And your daughter is really cute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forsythia Owen, in this Englewood PD arrest affidavit reportedly admitted to officers she did it. She said she beat Rainey with a baseball bat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been shocking. It`s been devastating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jennifer Dowdy (ph) say it was her husband who found a man lying lifeless in an alley behind their home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was shaking. He wasn`t sure what he had seen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After finding the body, she described what her husband did next.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was probably going to need to call 911 because he thought our neighbor that lived across the street may have been back there bleeding. Sure enough, Mr. Rainey was bleeding, and he had to call the cops.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. Mommy goes on Facebook and says, I`m going to jail. Then she goes to cops and admits, confesses, and even recreates the crime of beating a man to death in the alley with a baseball bat. Why? She says he molested her 4-year-old little girl.
Now, the family of Denzle Rainey, age 42, the man that died in that alley, insists that he was loving and would never have molested a child. That`s what they say.
To Clark Goldband. What more do we know about his family and what they contend about him?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, his estranged wife contends that, number one, he`s got three children. He`s a great dad. And she also adds he`s loving. She doesn`t believe any of this. And the estranged wife thinks...
GRACE: Whoa!
GOLDBAND: ... there`s an ulterior motive at play here.
GRACE: Put him up! An ulterior motive, a big conspiracy? OK. Let me ask you this. If he`s so loving, why are they estranged.
GOLDBAND: That`s certainly a good question, and we have not seen that in any reports.
GRACE: Nia Bender joining me from Clear Channel in Denver, I want to find out about what Denzle Rainey, the accused molester`s family is saying in his defense. What do they say?
NIA BENDER, CLEAR CHANNEL (via telephone): They`re saying that he was a loving, caring man, and that he would never, ever hurt a child. And they don`t believe it at all.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I went back there, he was gone. His face was eaten, his neck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy playing video games with his brother one moment, then savagely attacked by the family`s pitbulls the next.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It wasn`t him. It didn`t look like him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police just arrest Samuel Eli`s (ph) grandma and uncle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re being charged with felony child endangerment resulting in the death of a child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the child suffers extreme wounds to the upper body and dies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. What a story. Why were children left alone with eight pitbulls? We are taking your calls. Out to Michael Christian, reporter and investigative producer. Michael, what happened?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, FREELANCE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER/PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, this is just the kind of story that just absolutely breaks your heart. What we know here is that this took place on Monday of this week in Fulton, California. That`s about 60 miles straight east of Los Angeles. And a 2-year-old boy, Samuel Eli Zamudio, 2 years old, was playing video games in a back bedroom or a backroom with his 7-year-old brother when we believe he leaned out the window or looked out the window to look at some of the family`s dogs.
Now they had somewhere between five, seven, maybe up to 10 pit bulls and pit bull mixes. The theory at this point is that Samuel either leaned out the window and one of the dogs grabbed him or that he fell out the window. But it is believed that those dogs literally mauled -- almost ate this boy. He was taken to the hospital and pronounced dead. Very grave wounds on his upper torso. And --
(CROSSTALK)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: I just don`t understand why children are left alone with eight vicious dogs.
Out to Jason Flatt, founder of Friends to the Forlorn Pit Bull Rescue Inc.
All right, Jason, I`d like to hear your take on this story.
JASON FLATT, FOUNDER, FRIENDS TO THE FORLORN PIT BULL RESCUE INC.: From the details that I just heard, and from the articles that I`ve read on it, like you said, the question is, why was this young child left alone with these dogs? Children shouldn`t be left alone with any breed of dog. You should never leave a child that young unsupervised.
GRACE: Jason, I never hear of a Chihuahua or a Jack Russell Terrier or a Golden Lab or a Golden Doodle, I never hear of them eating people. But I hear of pit bulls eating people, and pit bull mixes eating people all the time. Why?
FLATT: It sells. It sells.
GRACE: What?
FLATT: And -- it sells. It --
GRACE: What do you mean it sells what?
FLATT: It`s a news story. Pit bulls are in the news all the time. I mean --
GRACE: Because they eat people.
(CROSSTALK)
FLATT: Nancy, they don`t eat people by nature. I mean, you can`t -- you can`t judge the breed based on --
GRACE: Well, why don`t I ever hear about a Chihuahua or a Jack Russell --
(CROSSTALK)
FLATT: I have known Chihuahuas that put people in the hospital.
GRACE: They never eat people.
FLATT: I know a woman that rescues Chihuahuas and she got bit by one and end up in the hospital with a bone infection. I mean it happens.
GRACE: A bone infection?
FLATT: A bone infection.
GRACE: Did she die?
FLATT: No, she didn`t die.
GRACE: How about a golden retriever?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: How about a Golden Retriever or a Labrador Retriever, a Golden Doodle? A poodle. A poodle mix, never?
FLATT: You have to look at --
GRACE: You hear of pit bulls and Dobermans eating people.
FLATT: You also -- you know, you have to understand that there`s a lot -- a lot of dogs that are misclassified as pit bulls. Pit bull is not a breed of dog, it`s a classification. So anything that has a big head, anything that has a muscular chest gets thrown in as a pit bull.
You know, pit bull mixes, we don`t know the background of these dogs. It sounds like they were not socialized or -- the dogs -- there`s a lot of questions.
GRACE: OK.
FLATT: What was going -- what was going on.
GRACE: You know what, you seem like a nice man, Mr. Flatt, the founder of Friends to the Forlorn Pit Bull Rescue Inc. But I think they`re devil dogs.
You know what, hold on.
To Detective Ray Mendez, special guest joining me out of Colton.
Detective Mendez, I just don`t understand why you would leave children with eight vicious animals. There were five pit bulls, two pit bull mixes and a Doberman. And this little boy was apparently pulled through the window? What happened, Detective?
DET. RAY MENDEZ, DETECTIVE, COLTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, you`re absolutely right, Nancy, you wouldn`t leave a 2-year-old unsupervised in any situation. And the fact that it`s compounded by having pit bulls at the residence only makes it that much worse.
I can`t get into the specifics of how the child came into contact with the pit bulls, but I can tell you that he did make contact with them in the backyard and that`s where the mauling occurred.
GRACE: What do we know? What can you tell us about what did happen?
MENDEZ: Like I said, the child did make contact with the pit bulls in the backyard. And that`s where it occurred. We can`t get into the specifics of exactly how the child got out of the residence, but I can tell you that he was not properly supervised, resulting in (INAUDIBLE) arrest.
GRACE: Everyone, we are live and taking your calls.
Michael Christian, I understand why the detective can`t comment on the case that`s ongoing.
Detective, can you tell me if there were two other children there?
MENDEZ: There was another child that was playing with the 2-year-old in the bedroom. And there was two other children in the back bedroom with their mother in a different part of the house when the attack occurred.
GRACE: So there were two other children in the home? Is that correct, Detective?
MENDEZ: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: OK. Who owned the dogs, Detective?
MENDEZ: The owner of all of the dogs was Eustolia Zamudio, with whom we arrested on the day of the attack.
GRACE: Is that the grandmother?
MENDEZ: It is. And also the owner of the house.
GRACE: OK, so one person owned eight dogs?
MENDEZ: That`s what we`re understanding, yes.
GRACE: OK. Who was supposed to be watching the baby?
MENDEZ: Marco Zamudio was under the care and custody of the children during the attack. So he was the baby-sitter for that during the --
GRACE: The uncle?
MENDEZ: He was the uncle, yes.
GRACE: All right. Back to you, Clark Goldband, I`m hearing the detectives say there was the little 2-year-old boy and two others in the home.
Clark, what have you been able to discern from your sources about what happened?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Yes, Nancy. In fact according to what I`ve learned, the grandma comes home and cannot find the 2-year-old. She starts frantically searching, according to reports. Neighbors trying to find the 2-year-old even. But then grandma heads out to the backyard and sees the unthinkable.
This 2-year-old boy, Samuel Eli, simply mauled by pit bulls. There was also a 1-year-old and a 7-year-old boy in the home. And as you heard from Michael Christian, Nancy, the 7-year-old was playing video games with the 2-year-old.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Kelly, California. Hi, Kelly, what`s your question?
KELLY, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: I was reading my text messages on my cell phone, I just happened to come across this, and really upset, and I keep hearing about these young kids getting mauled by pit bulls. I figured they`re -- you know, any young kid should not be left alone, they should be -- any kind of, you know, dog. I mean, even if it`s a --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, I agree with you, Kelly. I agree with you 200 percent. But, Kelly, you never hear about children getting mauled to death or eaten by anything but a pit bull or a Rottweiler, once in a while you hear a Doberman in there.
But have you ever heard, Kelly, of another type of dog killing people?
KELLY: No. Well, basically it`s pit bulls, unfortunately, a long time ago, I heard about one young boy who was going to school, and him and his friend tried to climb up a tree and they got attacked by a bunch of -- I think a bunch of Doberman pinchers and a few German Shepherds, and one of the boys got killed.
GRACE: Yes, Doberman Pinschers, Rottweilers and pit bulls. And, you know, I don`t know if you remember this story.
Actually, let me go to Michael Christian.
You and I covered it together. Remember the all-star, the all-American female soccer player out in California?
CHRISTIAN: Yes.
GRACE: Remember her?
CHRISTIAN: Yes.
GRACE: Now, those dogs, they weren`t pit bulls, they mauled her and killed her. Two dogs next to her. This is an ongoing story.
Michael, what more can you tell us?
CHRISTIAN: You know, Nancy, you`ve got to factor in here, you know, part of the problem is that you`ve got a bunch of dogs. I mean, maybe one dog won`t do something, but a pack will. But the other thing you`ve got to deal with here is, you know, where was the supervision?
Let`s say the dogs weren`t there. Let`s take the dogs out of this equation completely. You have a 2-year-old who may be hanging out of a window who can fall and hurt themselves. You can`t leave a child like that unsupervised.
GRACE: You know, Michael, only you would say take the dogs out of the scenario. It was a wild pack of dogs, a wild pack of dogs, pit bulls that mauled a little boy to death. I don`t know how you can take the dogs out of the scenario.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was gone.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The boy, just 2 years old, mauled to death by a pack of pit bulls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Child endangerment, resulting in the death of a child.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The boy playing video games with his brother one moment, then savagely attacked by the family`s pit bulls the next.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His face was eaten, his neck.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say the child suffers extreme wounds to the upper body and dies. Tonight, the dogs also seized by authorities. Police say his uncle was supposed to be watching the boy. What happened?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, we are taking your calls. Joining us tonight, Dr. Joshua Perper, medical examiner, former chief medical examiner, Broward County.
Dr. Perper, what evidence would you look for to determine whether the death should be an accident or a crime?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN DOCTORS KILL": As a result of the dog attack?
GRACE: Yes.
PERPER: Well, the bite marks of the dogs are quite characteristics. The canine are like very sharp blades and you can recognize the pattern. The second thing would be to identify the dogs which were involved in the attack. And if you examine this, as in this case, it was possible, immediately after the attack, obviously you can see muscle -- on their muscle, you can see blood on their paws, indicating that those were the dogs which were involved in the attack because it`s possible that not all the dogs of the pack were involved in this murder attack on the child.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, to me, this seems a horrible and brutal way to die much less for a child. What did the child experience? How long do you think the 2-year-old lived to experience this attack?
PERPER: Well, it depends on the savagery of the attack, but my expectation will be that he`ll die very fast. He would become unconscious as a result of the injuries and the fear, and so he would really experience pain over a -- over a short period of time.
But remember that parents kill because of reckless action -- their children in various ways. They leave them in the car and they die of high temperature of the environment of the car. The children died a result of drowning. They died as a result of falling. So unfortunately, the parents who don`t take exercise their parental supervision, which they must exercise.
GRACE: To Detective Ray Mendez -- Doctor -- Detective, where was the uncle? I know the dogs belonged to the grandmother, but the uncle apparently was to be baby-sitting. Where was he?
MENDEZ: He was somewhere in the house. I can`t get into the actual specifics of where he was, but he was there during the time and was responsible for caring for the two children.
GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychologist joining me out of New York.
Caryn, you know, Dr. Perper is right. So many different ways adults leave children to die. And whether they do it with their own hand or they set up conditions like this for the child to die, the result is the same, dead is dead is dead.
And, Caryn, I was talking to Michael Christian, you also covered that trial with me. I recall now the victim`s name was Diane Whipple. She was an all-American soccer player, and the dogs that attacked her were Presa Canarios. They attacked and killed her and brought this type of death to the forefront. The owners in that case were prosecuted for homicide.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I remember it well, Nancy. And I really have to say it`s about the supervision. I agree that it`s about how the parental supervision affects the children. Because pit bulls are often used to attack, and it`s not their nature necessarily, they`re just strong dogs. All of the dogs you mentioned, you`re right, are killer dogs if they`re trained to be that way. And that`s why we associate them with these kind of deaths.
So a lot of it, again, has to do with how do you teach children to be with animals, to be with dogs and where are the parents?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The 2-year-old Samuel Eli playing video games with his 7-year-old brother one moment. The next, he vanishes. About 30 minutes later, he`s found in the corner of the backyard, mauled by the dogs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I went back there, he was gone. Like his face was eaten, his neck. It wasn`t him. It didn`t look like him.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What happened?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Tonight, a disturbing story, a heartbreaking story, a 2-year-old little boy. There you see his picture, Samuel Eli Zamudio, mauled to death by his own grandmother`s pack of wild pit bulls and pit bull mixes. I think there was one Doberman in the bunch.
So, Michael Christian, what now?
CHRISTIAN: The child`s uncle, the caregiver in this case, Nancy, he is -- his name is Marco Zamudio. He`s 22 or 23. We believe it`s been reported he has been charged with one felony count of willful cruelty of a child resulting in death. Now if he`s convicted of that count, that`s a maximum sentence of six years.
GRACE: OK. Where was the child`s body found, Michael?
CHRISTIAN: My understanding, it`s in the backyard. The grandmother came home, couldn`t find the child, looked throughout the house and they couldn`t find him and then ultimately found him in the backyard. That`s where he had been attacked.
GRACE: Clark Goldband, did the dogs drag the little boy`s body to the back? The very back of the backyard?
GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy. Based upon the way we believe the situation played out, once the child fell down from that window, he was dragged across the unlandscaped yard into the back corner where he apparently was mauled by multiple pit bulls.
GRACE: Clark, Clark, you`ve got a brand new baby boy and you have a dog. What kind of dog?
GOLDBAND: A Shih Tzu Chihuahua.
GRACE: He`s about, what, 6 inches tall?
GOLDBAND: I think on a good day, yes.
GRACE: So back to you, Jason Flatt, founder of Friends to the Forlorn Pit Bull Rescue Inc., why is it that it`s always pit bulls and Rottweilers and Dobermans that attack people? Never another dog. Certainly not a Shih Tzu.
FLATT: You have -- it all falls into improper ownership. And I think it`s the problem lies at the other end of the leash. You`re going to have a bigger, stronger dog, of course. I have Vinnie sitting here who`s a American bulldog/pit bull mix. He`s probably close to 70 pounds. He`s a lot more capable of inflicting damage to somebody because of his size and his strength. So you`re not going to -- you`re not going to have the damage with the Shih Tzu/Chihuahua.
GRACE: Do you have children?
FLATT: Do I have children?
GRACE: Yes.
FLATT: Yes, they`re grown.
GRACE: Have you ever left a child alone with that dog?
FLATT: I have never left a child alone with the dog. I never would. Any dog, not even a Shih Tzu/Chihuahua.
GRACE: And question, the reason you don`t leave a child alone with the dog you`re cuddling right now is because -- why, I mean, look at that, look at that head. He could snap somebody`s neck into.
FLATT: So can I. But it doesn`t mean I`m going to do it. You know, it`s -- any dog is capable of inflicting wounds. And any bite can be fatal if it`s placed on the right area, Nancy. And I`m not going to argue with you, there`s definitely a pit bull problem in the United States. The problem is there`s too many of them, there`s an overpopulation of them. It`s irresponsible breeding, it`s irresponsible ownership.
Unfortunately, these big powerful breeds, people own them for the wrong reasons. You know, not for what they are. They own them for -- they don`t -- not the good qualities. They want them for the bad qualities and they want the image that`s associated with them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember Army Specialist Donald Scott Morrison, 23, Cincinnati, Ohio. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Action Badge. Parents Donald Sr. and Susan, brother Gary, sister Katie.
Donald Scott Morrison, American hero.
And now straight back to a story extremely disturbing. A 2-year-old little boy mauled to death by his grandmother`s pit bulls.
Back out to special guest, Detective Ray Mendez with the Colton Police Department. I understand the grandmother is not facing charges any longer?
MENDEZ: That`s correct, Nancy. She was arrested by us and the case went over to the district attorney`s office today. They declined to file charges at this time on Eustolia Zamudio.
GRACE: And I guess, because even though the dogs belong to her, she was not home when the incident occurred and she had left the child in the care of an adult uncle as a babysitter, right?
MENDEZ: That`s correct.
GRACE: Everyone, as we go to break, "DR. DREW" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
END
