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Nancy Grace
Woman Gives Birth in Kohl`s Restroom
Aired September 30, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found a dead baby in our trash can in the bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was sitting there, and like I said, it was hurting real bad. And then all of a sudden, it just kind of fell out -- I mean, all of it at once. I picked it up, and it wasn`t moving. It wasn`t breathing. And the umbilical cord had already separated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our maintenance person was (INAUDIBLE) the trash out and (INAUDIBLE) saw the blood and we took a look and (INAUDIBLE) child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember flushing the toilet at any point?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not to my knowledge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my gosh. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had to have done something wrong to lose the baby (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did I -- I`m sorry!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Breaking news tonight, live, Louisville, Kentucky. That floor (ph) like (ph) it (ph) Kohl`s, but great deals at low prices were not what shoppers got at a suburban Kohl`s department store.
Bombshell tonight. Shoppers and crews get the shock of a lifetime inside the ladies` restroom, a baby girl just hours old, dead, thrown away like trash. Where`s 29-year-old Mommy? Working the afternoon shift inside the store, takes a break to give birth to a baby in the bathroom stall, throws the infant away like trash, goes home, takes a shower, comes back to work so as not to raise suspicion.
Tonight, Mommy caught on tape in a stunning police interrogation claiming she didn`t even know she was pregnant, that she had a normal period every month, the entire nine months, and that she miscarries. But whoa! Wait a minute. The lady in the next stall hears the baby crying. That`s no miscarriage. We have the video!
Also tonight, a Florida cop pulls a couple over on their way home from work over a headlight. Then why does the police officer force the female driver to lift up her shirt and, quote, "shake out" her bra not once, but twice, now claiming he was searching for drugs? Now, I notice the cop did not ask the male passenger to, quote, "shake" out his underwear. Tonight, caught on tape.
And now, straight back to our first story. Kohl department store shoppers and crew get the shock of a lifetime, an infant found dead in the ladies` bathroom.
Straight out to Mark Vanderhoff with "The Courier-Journal." Mark, I`m stunned at this story, that she goes in the bathroom, gives birth, then leaves to go home, take a shower, and come back.
MARK VANDERHOFF, "THE COURIER-JOURNAL" (via telephone): Yes, well, she had been complaining of cramps throughout her shift, and one of the co- workers even offered to drive her to the hospital, but she said, No, no, I`ll drive myself. But before she could leave, she went to the restroom one last time, and that`s when the incident occurred. So she drove herself home, took a shower, and then came up with a story that (ph) she was going to drive back to work and tell her co-workers that she had a cyst.
GRACE: A cyst? Now, that`s the first time I`m hearing about a cyst.
Out to the lines. We`re talking your calls. Tim in Florida. Hi, Tim. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Nancy. I have a question, actually. Has the woman been arrested yet for dumping the baby in the Kohl`s bathroom?
GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact, not only have cops arrested her, they`ve let her out on no bond. Now, Tim in Florida, I want you to take a look at the interrogation tapes. We got our hands on them and transcribed them for you. Tim in Florida, take a look at this and listen to Jessica Price`s alleged lies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What -- just -- to the best you can remember and tell me, can you describe that actual event, when your baby...
JESSICA PRICE, HAD BABY IN BATHROOM: The first time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no. This time.
PRICE: I was sitting there, and like I said, it was hurting real bad. And then all of a sudden, it just kind of fell out -- I mean, all of it at once.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And when your baby fell out, is it into the toilet bowl or into the floor?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was in the toilet bowl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And once -- once the baby -- once your baby comes out, are you aware of anybody else being in the bathroom at that time?
PRICE: Not to my knowledge there wasn`t, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just tell me what you do after -- after the baby - - after your baby comes out?
PRICE: I -- I -- I picked it up, and it wasn`t moving. It wasn`t breathing. And the umbilical cord had already separated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
PRICE: And I about panicked. I got scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then what did you do?
PRICE: I picked it up and tried to clean the blood up as much as possible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And what did you use to do that?
PRICE: Just some paper towels and stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then what did you do next?
PRICE: I got the trash bag, and I put it in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And when you say you put your baby in the trash bag, did you pull a trash bag out of somewhere or...
PRICE: No, there`s two big -- where we wash our hands up, there`s two big receptacles, and they keep trash bags there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. So you pulled out an empty trash bag, put your baby inside of it. Now, did you tie the bag? Or what did you do?
PRICE: I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then you put -- you put your baby inside the empty trash bag. Then you took that trash bag and put it inside, just where the common trash would go with the paper towels?
PRICE: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, man! All right. Mark Vanderhoff joining me from "The Courier-Journal" there, live in Louisville. Right there, I`m not a -- I`m a JD, not an MD, but I can spot lies right there. Number one, babies don`t just "fall out," OK? That doesn`t happen. I mean, we wouldn`t have all the drama that happens when women give birth. Women wouldn`t die in childbirth if babies just fell out.
And number two, the umbilical cord doesn`t just fall off. At this early stage -- this baby was less than an hour old when it was murdered, allegedly. The umbilical cord wouldn`t just fall off.
To Dr. Michelle Dupre, joining me, medical examiner, pathologist out of Columbia. The umbilical cord doesn`t just fall off, as I recall, does it?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Absolutely not, Nancy. It really should be cut, and then, of course, cared for.
GRACE: Because I recall -- out to you, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent. Time passes before an umbilical cord will fall off. Much time passes. And usually, it`s snipped at the hospital, and there`s a little Band-Aid, or a little bandage over the baby`s tummy. It doesn`t just fall off, like your hair comes out when you brush it. It`s not like that, Jean.
Jean, what more do you know?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, these are the reports, that she was in that bathroom, Nancy, for 90 minutes. So that is totally inconsistent with she just walks in and it falls out. Her statement was that she`s sitting on the toilet, it fell out into the toilet. She picked it up. There was never a cry. There was never a sound. It wasn`t alive. But the charge is murder, and that`s murder of a living being.
GRACE: You know, Jean, I want to go back to Tim in Florida`s question. She`s not even in jail. What, because it`s a baby, it doesn`t matter?
CASAREZ: Home confinement. The judge determined she was not a risk to the community. She wouldn`t flee. So she`s at home with her parents, and monitoring. She`s got an anklet on. But you`re right, she`ll be there at home, not within a jail.
GRACE: Well, I guarantee you, if a man had killed an infant like this and thrown it in the trash, he wouldn`t be out with no bail at all. No bond was set. She just walked straight out.
Back to the lines. Jason. Hi, Jason. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. Do we know if this mother was on any medication at the time when this all happened?
GRACE: Absolutely not. She had worked her afternoon shift there as Kohl`s. Everything was normal until she went to the bathroom, and she would go in and come out and go in and come out, back and forth for 90 minutes.
Here`s the kicker. All of her lies -- she tells police she thought she miscarried, like she did, quote, "the time before." But another lady in that bathroom heard the baby crying.
You know, the devil is in the details. Tonight, stunning caught on tape video, 29-year-old Mommy, Jessica Price, her baby found dead, her newborn baby girl, in the ladies` bathroom at Kohl`s department store.
So while we`re all out there pushing our carts around, this lady`s in the bathroom killing her child, according to reports.
Take a listen to what she said to police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember flushing the toilet at any point?
PRICE: Not to my knowledge. If I did, I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. When -- when your baby came out, what did you do when it was crying?
PRICE: It wasn`t crying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t? OK. Because this is where it`s -- you know, I need you to be real honest and tell the truth. There was somebody in another stall. And they heard -- you know, at the time the baby came out, they heard you grunting and stuff. I mean, I can only imagine what it felt like, and the pain and the effort that it took for that to happen. And I`m sure you`re aware and realize that you were making some type of noises. Do you remember that? Do you remember grunting or anything?
PRICE: I`m sure I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Well, when that happened, they remember, right after, you know, hearing several grunts, a baby cry.
PRICE: I don`t remember her crying or him crying, I`ll be honest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I understand you said you were scared, but I mean, what made you feel so scared today?
PRICE: I don`t know. I...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t know? Is there anything that would...
PRICE: No. I mean, there`s nothing that I should have been scared for. I just was. I mean...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had you told anybody about -- since you learned about the pregnancy?
PRICE: No. I mean, I honestly don`t even know who the father would be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Didn`t know the baby was alive? Thought it was a miscarriage?
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight out of New York, Susan Moss. Out of LA, Trent Copeland. Out of New York, Danny Cevallos. OK, Sue Moss, to you.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If she really thought that the baby had died, she would have let out a shrieking cry! She wouldn`t have cleaned up this with paper towels. She wouldn`t have gone home and take a shower. She wouldn`t put on the exact same clothing so that no one would know anything happened. This is a cover-up. She is guilty, and she should be behind bars!
GRACE: Cevallos?
DANNY CEVALLOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, she`s going to get a trial. It doesn`t work that way. But what`s going to happen is the prosecutions has that heavy burden, and they`re going to have to prove to a jury that the child was alive when the...
GRACE: Danny, I appreciate you going through trial practice 101. We all here know the state has a burden. We know there`s going to be a trial. I`m asking you about the facts and her defense.
CEVALLOS: And I`m telling you, Nancy, the state will have to prove that that child was born alive and not dead.
GRACE: Repeat, I asked you what this defense is. The lady -- you know what? I`m going to move to Trent Copeland. Trent, the lady in the next stall heard the baby screaming. Is that enough for you? The baby was alive.
TRENT COPELAND, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Pretty close to it. Pretty close to it. But I think it`s going to be difficult to...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! What do you mean, pretty close? Put him up! What do you mean pretty close to it?
COPELAND: The pivotal thing is whether or not this woman...
GRACE: No, I`m asking you, what do you mean...
COPELAND: ... can establish affirmatively...
GRACE: ... by "pretty close to it"? What does that mean?
COPELAND: I mean, did she hear the woman, Jessica Price, crying...
GRACE: She said it was a baby.
COPELAND: ... in labor, in pain, or did she hear the baby? Now, remember, you know, look...
GRACE: She said it was a baby!
COPELAND: ... we`ll have to see. She said it was the baby...
GRACE: I already know what she said!
COPELAND: ... but she hasn`t been cross-examined. She hasn`t been cross-examined, Nancy...
GRACE: Trent, Trent...
COPELAND: ... and you know you can say certain things in the interview, but you`ve got to be cross-examined. You`ve got to withstand...
GRACE: Put him up!
COPELAND: ... the test of that cross-examination.
GRACE: Trent Copeland -- I don`t see him. Trent, do you have children?
COPELAND: Yes.
GRACE: Is that a yes?
COPELAND: That`s a yes.
GRACE: And did you ever hear them cry when they were babies?
COPELAND: Those are my children, Nancy. I`m not (INAUDIBLE) woman...
GRACE: So yes, you did. That would be a yes.
COPELAND: ... did not hear -- yes. Yes. But...
GRACE: Now, did you ever mistake...
COPELAND: This woman did not hear...
GRACE: ... your wife grunting for the baby screaming? Because I know how to...
COPELAND: I can tell you this...
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: Listen, I can tell you...
GRACE: ... ask her if you give me a lie.
COPELAND: I can tell you this, Nancy. If I`m in a bathroom stall, I`m not expecting to hear a baby crying in the middle of a woman giving birth to that child.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!
COPELAND: So I might have been confused. This woman could have been confused potentially-
GRACE: Right there...
COPELAND: ... if she heard Jessica Price crying...
GRACE: Know why you`ve never heard a baby cry...
COPELAND: ... in labor.
GRACE: ... a public bathroom? Because most men`s rooms -- because I`ve looked -- don`t have those things that you fold down to change diapers.
COPELAND: Yes. Yes. Well, (INAUDIBLE) family bathroom.
GRACE: Yes. Babies crying in ladies` bathrooms are not unusual. That`s where diapers get changed, Trent Copeland, diapies, stinky pants, poopy pants.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once you delivered your baby, you`re sure that you don`t have any recollections of hearing it cry or anything like that?
PRICE: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hold it? Did you hold your baby?
PRICE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And can you kind of describe how you held it, or...
PRICE: I mean, I held her by the back of the neck and by the leg.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did you get up off the toilet to pick it up, pick up your baby, or...
PRICE: No (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then just hold it out in front of you and sit back down or...
PRICE: Yes, for the whole (INAUDIBLE) I mean, I stood there for probably three or four minutes holding her, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And no crying or any kind of movements or anything at that point?
PRICE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If this crime had been committed on an adult, the perpetrator would be behind bars looking at the death penalty. But this victim is a brand-new baby, a little girl less than an hour old, left dead in a Kohl`s department store bathroom. While you and I are pushing our buggies around, looking for bargains, her baby is being born, its umbilical cord being torn off so Mommy can be free, the baby left discarded like trash. Those are the allegations of the prosecution.
We are taking your calls. Out to Kim in Delaware. Hi, Kim. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, I want to tell you I have waited years to call and talk to you. God bless you in everything that you do.
GRACE: I really appreciate that because these cases that we spotlight are so incredibly upsetting. These are not stories to me. They are not articles I read about or that my researchers send me. These are real people with real cases and real crimes, Kim. So thank you.
What is your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I just wanted to tell you that I think this all -- this whole scenario that she has cooked up is just a bunch of crock. The first thing I would have done was listened for a cry. And of course, the lady in the next stall heard a cry. The umbilical cord, everything just does not add up. And it appalls me that she`s home with an anklet bracelet on. I mean, it`s just -- and you`re right, if it was a man, he`d be in jail.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, we`re just calling your baby Baby Girl Price. Do you have a name, or do you want to give your baby a name to identify it, or do you just want it to be Baby Girl Price?
PRICE: No. I guess just -- can I change my mind later, or does it have to have a name now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you change your mind later, you can let me know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Clark Goldband, isn`t it true that police questioned her about the baby`s sex? She claimed she doesn`t know the sex of the baby. Now, how you can hold a baby and not know the sex is beyond me. But she`s caught up in yet another lie, isn`t she, Clark Goldband.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, that`s according to reports, Nancy. In fact, she says she wants to know the sex, but then on another part of the tape, we hear her use the word "she" because she is told that it is a she that this suspect gave birth to.
GRACE: Back to Kim in Delaware. Kim, every time she opens her mouth, her story gets all tripped up and she`s stepping all over herself with her story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, she is. She absolutely is. And she can`t even name the baby. I mean, she`s satisfied with Baby Price. I mean, it`s -- it`s just incredible. It`s unbelievable. I can`t even believe it.
GRACE: Well, it`s depraved. It is depraved, the complete disregard for human life, this tiny baby`s life.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... in the bathroom.
PRICE: I was sitting there, and like I said, it -- it was hurting real bad. And then all of a sudden, it just kind of fell out -- I mean, all of it at once. I picked it up, and it wasn`t moving. It wasn`t breathing. And the umbilical cord had already separated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our maintenance person was doing (ph) the trash out (INAUDIBLE) and saw the blood, and we took a look and (INAUDIBLE) child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember flushing the toilet at any point?
PRICE: Not to my knowledge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my gosh. Yes, it`s a newborn.
PRICE: I had to have done something wrong to lose the baby (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Take a listen to what was caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRICE: Why did I -- I`m sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. For those of you just joining us, caught on tape, a 29-year-old woman at Kohl`s department store. That`s more (ph) like (ph) it (ph) Kohl`s. That`s the slogan, isn`t it? For years Kohl`s touted you get just what you want at Kohl`s department store. Well, that`s not what shoppers and crew got at a local suburban Kohl`s. A mom gives birth in the bathroom. According to another lady in the bathroom, she hears the baby crying. The baby found dead, discarded like trash.
Out to CW Jensen, retired police captain. CW, why is this case being treated differently? Why is this 29-year-old mom walking free? She didn`t even have a bond set, CW? No bond at all. She just walked out r.o.r. Released on own recognizance.
CW JENSEN, RETIRED POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, I mean, that`s a decision that`s made by a judge, and maybe I would look at it in a different way, but, you know, there`s a real difference between, you know, this horrific act, and somebody that`s going around shooting innocent people. I mean, she was in a situation she should have made better decisions on and saved this child`s life, but obviously, what the judge felt, I think, is that, you know what? This isn`t going to happen again. She`s not a danger to her community, and you would think, I`d be saying like, leave her in jail. Trust me, she`s going to do jail time.
GRACE: Well, I am trusting you. To Mark Vanderhoff, reporter with the Courier Journal joining me there in Louisville. What`s happening? The judge let her out. You know, you mentioned she`s not a flight risk, but there are a lot of other factors in a bond or bail decision, such as harm to others, harm to self, repeat crime, trying to influence witnesses. There are a lot of other factors, the severity of the crime, that go into a bond decision. I -- I am just stunned, Mark. Who is this judge that didn`t even set a bond?
VANDERHOFF: Well, he`s a very experienced judge, who`s been around for quite a while, and it was -- I can`t speak to his reasoning, but it was a fairly brief bond reduction (ph) hearing, and he cited the pretrial evaluation that determined that she was a very low flight risk, and her defender cited her lack of a criminal record. As far as we could find, she was charged with a DUI, but was acquitted. We couldn`t find any other criminal history, and those two factors seem to be --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know what is interesting, Mark? Scott Peterson didn`t have a criminal history, either, did he? Until he killed his wife and his baby. Is that crime big enough for everybody? Would a judge be happy with that?
I mean, it does not matter to me whether she had a criminal history or not. What matters is all we`re talking about seemingly, Sue Moss, is what`s convenient for her. What about the baby, Sue?
MOSS: Are we forgetting the fact that she`s being charged with murder? The abuse of a corpse? She`s being charged with tampering with evidence? These are very, very serious charges. And even if you believe her story, one would have to think someone who`s gone through such an experience might be a risk or danger to themselves. Any way you look at it, she should be in jail. Whether it be because of the seriousness of the crimes, or because she might be a risk against herself.
GRACE: To Danny Cevallos, defense attorney in New York. Danny, do you at least concede the fact that she tried to clean up the scene, go home, take a shower and then put the very same clothes back on so she could come back to work and no one would suspect anything had happened? You don`t see that as consciousness of guilt?
CEVALLOS: First, do I concede it? Yes, she`s pretty much said that she did that. She`s admitted to that. If it goes to consciousness of guilt, that`s probably true, because she put it in the trash, and obviously wanted to evade discovery. But it doesn`t take away from the ultimate issue the state has to prove. That`s why they`re going to need experts in this case, and that`s why the defense is going to attack whatever witness says they may have heard crying or baby crying in the bathroom. Ultimately, the state`s got to prove that was a living child. If she`s cleaned up after a dead child, then that`s a different trial.
GRACE: I get you. I heard you the first ten times you said the state`s got to prove it was a living child. The lady in the next stall hears a baby screaming, but to Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, Columbia. Dr. Dupre, what about the fact that there was liquid in the baby`s lungs?
DUPRE: Nancy, that`s one of the things obviously we check to determine if the baby was born alive or not. There was evidence that there was air fill as well, and there was also air in other parts of the baby`s system, like it should be if they`re born alive. I think the medial examiner will probably be able to determine that.
GRACE: You cut out on me. I couldn`t hear you. I had New York in my ear, Dr. Dupre. At the critical moment of your explanation, I was asking you about the fact that there was fluid in the baby`s lungs. What does that mean? A frothy, pinkish fluid? Is that water? Mixed in with the lungs from the commode the baby was left in?
DUPRE: It may be, Nancy. It sounds like it is edema. And it sounds like because it is frothy, we can determine whether the baby was born alive or not by examining the lungs, and it sounds from the autopsy reports that the baby was alive. It did take a breath, and so that was a living baby.
GRACE: According to the police report, Doctor, the neck appeared to be broken.
DUPRE: That is -- young babies, their necks -- they`re not able to hold their heads up by themselves and they could appear that way to an inexperienced person. The actual anatomical findings indicated no anatomical cause of death.
GRACE: And what do you make of the liquid in the lungs? What does that say to you? And are the other parts of the baby that would show the baby had breathed?
DUPRE: Yes, Nancy. The pink frothy liquid is edema. That is fluid mixed with air, as in gasping (ph). So the baby did take a breath. There were other indications that the G.I. tract was filled with air. Again, other indications that the baby was alive.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at what I perceive to be the most revealing evidence, and that is, mommy herself, caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE: After -- after you placed your baby in the -- in the trash, what did you do next?
PRICE: I -- go get my bag, and I tell Sandy that I`m leaving, and I tell her I`m going to the ER. I did lie to her. I didn`t go to the hospital. I went back to my new house to make, you know -- to try to figure out what I was doing.
POLICE: The one on Coral Ridge?
PRICE: Yes.
POLICE: So you`d not been to any kind of, getting medical treatment or anything since this happened?
PRICE: No.
POLICE: OK. Now, you said, you cleaned up the baby?
PRICE: I tried to.
POLICE: I mean, was there -- any kind of mess in the bathroom, or -- I knew you said you were sitting on the toilet. Was there any mess in the bathroom? Did you clean up the bathroom any?
PRICE: Not really. I mean, I may have used some paper towels to wipe off my hands and put them in a little bag at the stall I was in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE: Once you clock in, about 2:00, what -- tell me, run through your day for me.
PRICE: A normal day?
POLICE: No. Today specifically as far as --
PRICE: Oh.
POLICE: I know you said you were feeling pains, and the cramping. So just, you know, describe those pains and tell me how that`s affecting how you feel, and what your -- what you`re doing about it.
PRICE: I basically had gone, and I had clocked in, and walked into the office and I put my bag down, and sat down at the computer to check the daily, you know, what our credit goal was and our sales plan and everything was. It hadn`t been maybe at most 10 minutes if that. I cramped up bad enough that I went to the bathroom. I mean, I doubled over, and I didn`t want anybody to see me, you know, in that much pain. And then pretty much after that, I think I came out, a couple of times when the pain subsided, and went right back in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So while we are out pushing or carts around in Kohl`s department store, this lady apparently in the bathroom, giving birth, getting rid of her baby, going home, showering and coming back to her afternoon shift. Even wearing the same clothes. So her co-workers would not suspect anything had happened.
Out to Dr. Ramani Durvasula, clinical psychologist. Dr. Ramani, thank you for being with us. Doctor, how is it that women can, and men, too, but in this case the mother, can completely disassociate with the baby, and look at it like it`s an object.
DR. RAMANI DURVASULA, PSYCHOLOGIST: She disassociated from the pregnancy as well, Nancy. It sounds like she didn`t even own that piece of it. So when the baby came, it really was an object to her. It was really something she needed to get rid of. But it does not ring true that she was entirely sort of in a psychotic state. She had the wherewithal to go home, clean up, and come back to work. So she was not in that chaotic state, but I do think she had sort of denied this entire experience from square one.
GRACE: In other words, you know, like the ostrich with its head in the sand and its booty in the air, if it can`t see what`s going on, nobody can see it. So she pretended the pregnancy wasn`t happening.
To Dr. Michelle Dupre. Doctor, she also tells cops she had a regular menstrual period every month, the whole nine months. Is that possible?
DUPRE: It`s not truly possible, Nancy. She may have just had (inaudible) bleeding. If you really have a menstrual period, you shed the uteral lining, and that`s where the baby`s placenta attaches, so it would not be possible. She may have been--
GRACE: Dr. Dupre, practically every mom has had some sort of breakthrough bleeding at some point in the pregnancy. It`s clearly not the same as a period. It is -- I mean, with a period, it goes on for a number of days. It`s constant. But with breakthrough bleeding, it`s an entirely different scenario. That was a lie. Out to the lines.
Dorothy, in Florida, hi, Dorothy. What`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. First I want to say, God bless you for having a voice for these babies. (inaudible). That Casey Anthony cases, it seems like we`re having more cases of these mothers killing their babies and acting like they don`t know what`s going on.
GRACE: Terrible. And Dorothy, the cases are treated differently when the victim is a little baby. I don`t understand that. I mean, that is the most defenseless member of our society are these tiny babies. I remember when Lucy was born, she was only 2 pounds. 2 pounds.
CALLER: I know. They`re so precious. And to the one gentleman you were talking to, twice in his sentence, he said, and she threw it in the garbage. Well, it was a child. You know? I don`t believe he should be calling it. That was a baby.
GRACE: It was a little girl baby. She threw the baby girl in the trash, and now the medical examiner can`t even determine exactly how the baby died, but this is what we know.
Out to you -- let me go to Trent Copeland. We know that the baby was breathing. It had air in its lungs. It was gasping for breath, and we know the woman in the next stall heard the baby screaming and crying. Now, it`s going to be very difficult. You went on and on in a circle, around and around, how you got to prove this witness really heard a baby crying. All right. So now you`ve got a witness saying the baby was crying. Which means it was not a miscarriage, it was not born dead as mommy claims, but you also have a medical examiner claiming it had air in its lungs.
COPELAND: Yes, yes. I mean, we`ve got those things, Nancy, and I don`t disagree with you. And believe me, this is -- this child is the -- the victim in every sense of world. No question about that.
Look, these cases are difficult. You and I know, and you know this case, Nancy, because you followed it. Mark Geragos had a case right here in California just four and a half years ago involving a USC student. She gave birth, she dumped the baby in an incinerator right downtown, right down here in Los Angeles. And you know what? Prosecutors tried repeatedly to establish, even had expert witnesses who indicated the baby took a breath and the baby was then thrown in the incinerator, and they couldn`t get a conviction. And she eventually--
GRACE: What is your point?
COPELAND: Eventually she pled to a lesser child endangerment.
GRACE: What does that have to do with this case?
COPELAND: My point is these cases are difficult.
GRACE: I disagree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Mark Geragos finally managed to get it over on a jury, I`m so not impressed. In fact, that makes me even madder.
COPELAND: Just because you have a single witness.
GRACE: Just turn him off for a moment, turn him off. Susan Moss, why is it when I ask these defense lawyers about this case, they want to start talking about a case that happened nearly five years ago in another jurisdiction where there was a mistrial? Why is that? Because they don`t want to confront and grapple with these facts, I would suggest?
MOSS: Because they don`t want you to know the truth. If there`s air in the lungs, the defense is done. That`s it. What I want to know is what happened with that first miscarriage? Was that the same type of scenario? Where the baby was --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Good question. Out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent. Jean, what do we know about the first miscarriage?
CASAREZ: Not much, because she said it happened at her home. She said it was seven to eight years ago. She was five months pregnant, and she had a miscarriage at her home. We don`t know the facts of that. And with this, she admitted she knew one month prior that she was pregnant but she never went to a doctor, because it didn`t fit with her work schedule.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Krista (ph), North Carolina, hi, what`s your question.
CALLER: I`m totally appalled at what is happening. This poor baby is not being advocated for, and the mother could have easily taken the baby to a fire department, to an emergency room, no questions asked, dropped the baby off and the baby would have been cared for. Why isn`t the mom`s mental health being (inaudible)?
GRACE: You know, what about it, Jean?
CASAREZ: The Kentucky safe haven law. And according to the law in Kentucky, you can take the baby to a hospital, a police station, a fire station, almost anywhere, and they will accept it, and you don`t even have to be known.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Caught on tape. A Florida police officer stops a couple on the way home from work over a headlight, then why does the cop force the female driver to pull up her shirt and, quote, shake out her bra? Not once but twice. Take a look at the video that was caught on the dash cam. This is out of the Lakeland, Florida. There you go. Here they come, the pull- over has something to do with a headlight. Notice he`s not asking the male to look in his underwear. He`s forcing the lady to pull her bra out from her breast and shake it. Not once but, here you go, she`s starting to cry. Ok.
There you see once again forcing her to pull her bra out and shake it again. Out to Clark Goldband. Clark, what happened?
GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, this appears to be a traffic stop, as you see, and as you stated, the female driver is asked to leave the vehicle while the male driver, you see him right there, is being watched by the officer.
Now, during this stop, you can see the woman is reportedly asked repeatedly to shake her bra. Now, it`s important to point out law enforcement claims they were simply checking for drugs, but as you so adequately pointed out, they didn`t do it to the male.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero Army Sergeant Raymond Alcarez (ph), 20, Redlands, California. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, two Army Achievement Medals, parents Raymond Sr. and Alma, stepfather Paul, brother Lucas, Raymond Alcarez, American hero.
And tonight, caught on tape. A Florida cop stops a couple on the way home from work over a headlight. But why does he force the female driver out of the car to pull her shirt out, lift her bra, and shake out her breasts not once, but twice? I notice, out to you, Danny Cevallos, he never asks the male passenger to look in his underwear.
CEVALLOS: Yes, that fact is a red herring to me. The bottom line is the Supreme Court has said this is a strip-search, and in this case, that doesn`t appear to have been supported by enough probable cause. So while I agree, probably--
GRACE: Wait, wait, you`re the defense lawyer, but somehow when it`s a cop, you`re all over him.
CEVALLOS: I am. What a surprise.
GRACE: Why is it that in the last case when a woman kills her baby, according to police and throws it in the trash, you`re defending her, but when a cop does something, you`re all over him?
(CROSSTALK)
CEVALLOS: No one is saying this cop threw a baby in the trash, Nancy. The bottom line is this is a pretty clear issue. Pulling your bra and shaking it is a search, a strip search.
GRACE: No, the bottom line is you defend someone accused of murder, but when it`s a cop, he can`t do anything right. And I`m not even on the cop`s side on this. But, you know, you can`t have it both ways, you can`t pick and choose your clients the way you`re doing. Sue Moss, let`s hear your side.
MOSS: What`s this, police gone wild? Who is this, Officer Joe Francis? What this officer did was outrageous. He was suspended, but it should be more. He should be off the force.
GRACE: I don`t know about you, Sue Moss, but I`ve got a real problem with what this police officer did. He had a one-day suspension. This couple had done nothing wrong. They had one headlight out, and they end up basically making a woman break down in tears as he watches her shake her breasts like that? Nothing was found in the car. Nothing.
Everyone, that`s out of Lakeland, Florida. Dr. Drew up next. I`ll sew you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
