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Nancy Grace
Missing Child`s Mom Talks to TV but not Cops; Family Man Walks Into Child Sex Sting
Aired October 08, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Kansas City, 10-month-old baby Lisa, sleeping in her own crib, goes missing without a trace, Mommy just feet away, knocked-out drunk on a box of wine.
Bombshell tonight. Mommy cries to the cameras she`ll do anything to bring baby Lisa home, but police say they haven`t spoken to her since they began investigating the case.
And also tonight, to Daytona Beach. An upstanding father and husband takes his wife and daughter to meet a 14-year-old girl he`s been grooming on line for months to have sex with him and his family, only to discover it was an undercover sting. Busted, Daddy!
And tonight, to San Diego. Mom heads out for a morning walk, never seen again. Eight days later, she`s found dead, face down in a field 35 miles from home. Family immediately points the finger at the prime suspect. Who? Her own daughter.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. To Kansas City, 10-month-old baby Lisa is asleep in her own crib. She goes missing without a trace, her mom just feet away, knocked-out drunk on a box of wine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... daughter Lisa was taken from our home.
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER: Nightmare.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I came home from work.
BRADLEY: So it was really (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The window was -- in the front was open.
BRADLEY: He said, She`s not in her crib. And I said, What do you mean she`s not in her crib?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cadaver dog a positive hit for the scent of a deceased human.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New imagine that was just released depicting what baby Lisa might look like now.
BRADLEY: It was happiness to see her again, but it was sadness that she`s not in (ph) person (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, yes, right. Boo-hoo, OK? Now, I would fall for that if I didn`t know police are saying Mommy hasn`t spoken to them since the outset of the investigation. And that`s just the tip of the iceberg.
Straight out to Matt Zarrell. Matt, that truly is the tip of the iceberg. What more do we know about Mom`s involvement? Now, first, right off the bat, Matt, I want to state that Dad, that night that baby Lisa goes missing, was at work, and we know for a fact he was at work. She was with the children.
OK, what do we know, Matt?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, we know, Nancy, from our previous reporting that the mom was drinking that night and passed out after putting the baby in her crib. And when the father returned home just before 4:00 AM, he found the front door unlocked, the lights on, baby Lisa`s crib empty, and the couple`s cell phones were gone.
GRACE: Here is video that we obtained of Mommy just before baby Lisa goes missing with a friend of the family, buying the box of wine, the box of wine -- she drank nearly the whole thing the night her daughter disappears from her home.
OK, you know, Matt Zarrell, what concerns me is Mommy`s behavior and cooperation, or lack of cooperation, with police since baby Lisa goes missing. I mean, I would be laying on the steps to the police station screaming, Help me, help me, help me! Do something! What do we know?
ZARRELL: Well, Nancy, what`s interesting here is that baby Lisa`s mother did that, except she only did that for one TV station. She cried and cried recently saying, I want my baby back. I`ll do anything to get my baby back.
But when we speak to cops, the cops say since -- we haven`t spoken to her since the early stages of the investigation. Obviously, she has no problem talking to the media, but she has a problem talking to cops.
And I should note, Nancy, that later on that day, when reporters went back to her house to speak to her again, she said, Oh, I hired a new PR person and he told me not to talk to you guys.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, legal correspondent. What did I just hear? People come to talk to the mom to see if she wants to make public pleas to find her little girl, and she just refers everybody to a PR firm?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Nancy, to go along with that -- let`s look at the facts here. A search warrant affidavit that we were actually able to obtain states that a cadaver dog made a hit on the floor of the bedroom.
GRACE: The floor of Mommy`s bedroom?
CASAREZ: Yes, Mommy`s bedroom.
GRACE: Now, on that vein, Michael Board, WOAI, joining us tonight. Michael, what is Mommy saying about the cadaver dog and the polygraph?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI: Well, Mom is saying that in this case, she doesn`t think that she took a polygraph. She doesn`t remember taking a polygraph -- heck, I would remember taking a polygraph -- and she said she doesn`t believe she took one, she doesn`t believe she failed one, as some media have reported in this case.
As far as that cadaver dog, she doesn`t remember any cadaver dog being in her bedroom. But then again, the night before, she was whacked out on a whole box of wine.
GRACE: OK, hold on, Michael. Did you just say she doesn`t remember taking a polygraph?
BOARD: She does not remember. She said she -- I don`t remember. There was some reports in the media that she had failed her polygraph. Now, now she`s saying, I don`t remember that. That`s wrong reporting by the media.
So we don`t really know what the story is. When we talk to police in this case, they say they`ve had very little contact with her and they say nothing about a polygraph test.
GRACE: OK, Matt Zarrell, what do we know about the poly?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, what happened was, is that Deborah Bradley, the mother, went on national TV and said publicly on the air, Cops told me I failed my polygraph test.
Now, what she`s saying now is she`s not denying that she took a polygraph test. What she`s saying is that she doesn`t believe that she actually failed it, cops only lied to her when they told her she failed her polygraph.
GRACE: So according to her, cops are lying.
All right, joining me now, Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids. Marc, when your daughter Polly went missing, you had the exact opposite reaction. I want to hear your thoughts on baby Lisa`s mom`s reaction.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think that this is a textbook case on how not to handle a missing person investigation from the family`s point of view. You don`t hire confrontational lawyers. You don`t hire out-of-town private investigators. You don`t refuse to talk to the police. You don`t refuse to let the police talk to your children. You don`t get bombed on wine when you have an infant in the house, and you don`t seem to cover up everything that`s happening.
Of course she`s going to look implicated, like she`s implicated in this simply through her conduct. It`s in everybody`s best interests to completely clear herself and put the truth out on the table. And quite frankly, Nancy, in this case, the truth can`t be any more sordid or make any less sense than the stories that she has concocted over the last couple of -- since this started.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Peter Odom, defense attorney. Also with us, Bill Stanton, private investigator consulting baby Lisa`s parents. Bill, question. I don`t understand why baby Lisa`s parents would hire a PR firm. And this is to Bill Stanton. He is the PI consulting baby Lisa`s parents. Why when people come to try to ask the mom, Do you want to make a public plea, do you want to come on air to talk about this to remind everyone baby Lisa is still missing, she refers them to a PR firm?
BILL STANTON, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, my head`s still spinning from what all you folks are saying because you have some of the facts. But from my optic, you guys are spinning it all wrong and you`re quite frankly asking the wrong questions.
I mean, what you`re not paying attention to is -- you`re paying attention to what she`s saying about, you know, boxed wine and polygraph, and I could speak to that. But more importantly, what about the witnesses, the witnesses that saw a man carrying a child at 12:00 o`clock that night? No one`s paying attention to that. And everybody...
GRACE: I`m paying attention to it. You`re dead wrong! You`re dead wrong!
STANTON: You -- you think the family...
GRACE: And I questioned the local police about that, and it`s my understanding the police have identified who that man was. And they have also stated that there was no forced entry into baby Lisa`s home.
Now, you said that you could talk to -- which I assume you mean, you could address the questions about the polygraph. Did baby Lisa`s mom take a polygraph?
STANTON: It`s my understanding -- again, this is what I`m hearing...
GRACE: You said you could talk about it!
STANTON: And I -- I am...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Did she take it?
STANTON: My understanding is that a polygraph was issued, and my understanding is she passed it.
GRACE: Really? Then why is it that she is saying -- she said to some people she doesn`t remember a polygraph?
STANTON: Well, I can`t speak for her, but I can speak to the facts. I can speak to the facts that -- for all you folks are saying that how she was bombed -- and understand, they are not my client...
GRACE: She drank a whole box of wine!
STANTON: Just understand, Nancy, they are not my client. And if you folks -- if I found compelling evidence that she or both of them were guilty, I would be the first one to give that to law enforcement.
GRACE: Well, OK, then let`s talk about the cadaver dog...
STANTON: Sure.
GRACE: ... who hit in baby Lisa`s mother`s room.
STANTON: OK.
GRACE: All right?
STANTON: OK. And then if you did your homework, which I`m sure you did, you would also know that a dog would (ph) make a false positive on fecal matter, which is found where? In baby`s diapers. Now, I`m not a defense attorney, but what I would ask you all that are saying -- how you`re saying how she was bombed on a full box of wine -- how can a woman drink a full box, as you are alleging, and commit such a perfect crime, where she drank this wine, she woke up, and what`s being implicated is that she murdered or by accident killed this baby and got rid of it without a trace?
I mean, I don`t know. I can`t even brush my teeth and get out of the door in time.
GRACE: I know, Bill, that she was alone with the child for hours and hours. Where that child is right now, I don`t know. I don`t know what she or...
STANTON: You want my 30-second...
(CROSSTALK)
STANTON: You want my 30-second theory?
GRACE: Well, you`ve already had way over 30 seconds, but I`ll hold you to that.
STANTON: OK.
GRACE: You`re counting. Go.
STANTON: OK. There was a gentleman down the block that was seen at 11:30. At 11:30, this man was down the block, and he was a known meth addict, known to breaking and entering. At 12:00 o`clock, a man fitting that description was seen with a baby.
I think we need to be focusing on this person called Jersey Joe because a phone call was made from that phone. We know that for sure. And that phone call was made to a woman named Megan Wright (ph). It didn`t go through, but it was made.
Now, Megan Wright is the on again-off again girlfriend of Jersey Joe. Now, when they questioned -- the FBI questioned Megan Wright, she had no idea...
GRACE: You`re running out of time.
STANTON: ... who Lisa or Jeremy (ph) were. That`s it right there.
GRACE: OK. Everyone, we are live and taking your calls.
I want to go back out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent. Jean, you`ve heard the response from Bill Stanton. He`s the private eye that`s been consulting baby Lisa`s parents. And I want to hear your response.
CASAREZ: My response is with all the trials, Nancy, that we have covered, participated in, cadaver dogs, we know, are specifically trained, and they`re trained to exclude things such as fecal matter. That`s why they are called cadaver dogs.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. Baby Lisa goes missing from her own bed in her own home, Mommy just feet away, Mommy having drunk an entire box of wine that night.
We are live and taking your calls. Unleash the lawyers. With me, Peter Odom, as well as Bill Stanton, the PI consulting baby Lisa`s parents. Peter Odom, weigh in.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The best circumstance showing that this woman is not the killer or abductor of this bay is that she`s not been arrested. The standard for arresting someone for a crime like this is pretty low. It`s probable cause. That`s all it takes to get an arrest warrant. Police haven`t done that.
You know, I also think that the police must believe that that cadaver dog hitting on the baby`s bedroom, or on the mother`s bedroom -- the police must believe that that`s a false hit because if they believed that this baby were dead inside the mother`s bedroom, it`s likely they would have made an arrest based on that alone, so -- and dogs do make mistakes. Cadaver dogs can hit on fecal matter, so there`s just not enough to arrest this woman.
GRACE: You know, Peter, you are a former prosecutor. You were a prosecutor before you became a defense attorney. So arguing to me that dogs can make mistakes, that`s really not getting anywhere.
Out to Jean Casarez. There is a vigil that is set up, and I`m wondering why the mom is not making public pleas?
CASAREZ: Nancy, we can only surmise of why she isn`t doing it. I mean, consciousness of guilt versus so distraught she can`t show her face publicly at this point of time? I think only she can answer that question.
GRACE: Take a listen to what the mother has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADLEY: The cadaver dog, it`s not true. It didn`t happen.
I passed the lie detector test. I passed. They told me I failed as a tactic.
I`m OK with talking to them. I mean, I don`t have anything to hide. I`m not OK with answering the same questions repeatedly. You know, I have the same answer because it`s the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Sergeant Scott Haines, officer, sheriff`s officer joining me out of Santa Rosa County, Florida. Thanks for being with us. So far...
SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL: Thank you.
GRACE: ... the mother has not been arrested. That`s true. What do you think is going on inside the investigation?
HAINES: There`s plenty of time when law enforcement officers are working investigations and they have very good ideas, if not know who committed the crime. They don`t rush to arrest someone. They want to make it a solid case, gather a lot more evidence. Could they get a warrant signed? Probably. However, they don`t want to ruin a case by making an arrest and not having everything sealed up that they need to.
You heard the chuckle in the woman`s voice when she was talking about answering questions. A mother who lost a child wouldn`t be laughing and chuckling under her breath in a situation -- that -- that`s very bizarre behavior.
GRACE: I found that very disturbing. To Judy Ho, psychologist out of LA. She`s actually laughing!
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right, Nancy. You know, I think that her body language and demeanor is completely inexplicable because she`s kind of shrugging. She`s laughing. She`s looking away from the camera. You know, she`s saying things that really don`t matter in this case.
Answer the questions. Why are you avoiding the police? And instead, you`re having a little media tour. It doesn`t make any sense. This is not how a sensible mother would behave if her children went missing.
GRACE: Take a listen to the mom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADLEY: It makes you wonder, had -- had they are cast their net wide enough, maybe she`d be home!
We would do anything. I mean, there`s nothing in this world, and I think he agrees, that we wouldn`t do to get her back!
I never thought someone would steal one of my babies! You know, even if you see it on the news, you don`t -- you don`t think it can happen to you!
I think she`s with a family somewhere and I think she`s being loved. You don`t take a baby to hurt her. You just don`t. Human trafficking is real. I have always felt like she`s OK and that she`s going to come home. I`ve never...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, it`s not because you`re helping, Mommy. Why don`t you start with a walk down to the police station and full cooperation?
When we come back, an upstanding father and husband takes his wife and daughter to meet a 14-year-old girl, a girl police say he had been grooming on line for months to have sex with him and his wife, only to discover it was all an undercover sting. Daddy, you`re busted!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now to Daytona Beach. An upstanding father and husband takes his wife and daughter to meet a 14-year-old girl, a girl police say Daddy had been grooming on line for months to have sex with him and his wife. They get there only to discover it`s all an undercover sting. Busted!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a 64-year-old Florida man looking for a teen girl to add to his family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone to add to his cozy little family, that age didn`t matter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He actually sent nude photographs of himself, someone who thought that was a 14-year-old girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After months of buildup, he finally meets her at the supermarket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He even got his wife and his child involved in that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family walked several miles, baby in tow, to this shopping plaza to meet her for sex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Problem. She`s not a 14-year-old girl, she`s a cop!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s right. No 14-year-old He met a cop instead.
Straight out to Michael Christian, investigative reporter. Michael, what happened?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, FREELANCE INVESTIGATION REPORTER/PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, when they got to the store, Nancy, he found out to his chagrin that, indeed, this was not a 14-year-old girl, this was an undercover cop. They had been corresponding on line for six or seven months.
And this man, Cliff Oshman, is now charged with use of a computer to seduce, solicit or lure a child, another count of traveling to seduce, solicit, lure or entice a child, another count of using a two-way communication device to commit felony, and two separate counts of transmitting images harmful to a child.
All put together, he could get 35 years in prison.
GRACE: Michael, I don`t know if you can see your monitor or not, but this guy -- I just hope he looks just like that in front of a jury because all he needs is a trench coat and he would look like the stereotypical child molester.
Clark Goldband, how did the whole thing go down? How do we know he was grooming a 14-year-old little girl on line for months to get her to meet him so the child could have sex with him and his wife?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Because, Nancy, according to authorities and reports, he said as much, but he said as much to an undercover police officer. Not only do you see these graphic alleged messages on your screen, but according to authorities, he sent graphic sexual images of his body to who he thought was a 14-year-old girl.
GRACE: Clark, Clark, Clark, Clark, when you say graphic sexual images of his body, you mean his pubic area, his penis? He`s showing his privates parts, taking pictures of him, pictures of himself and sending them to what he believed was a little girl?
GOLDBAND: That`s what authorities are alleging, yes, Nancy. Those are the allegations.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to the arrest report, Oshman advertised on line for someone to add to his cozy little family, that age didn`t matter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was just for his way of maybe, like, gaining the 14-year-old`s confidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Insinuating his way into her life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Exactly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: He takes his wife and daughter to a local grocery store to meet a 14-year-old girl he has been grooming on line, preparing for this moment for months. But when he gets there, it`s a sting.
Out to the lines. Mike in Georgia. Hi, Mike. What`s your question?
CALLER: Hey, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. I`m just wondering, what`s the longest that this pervert can go to jail, even though nothing happened? I mean, I think he should go to jail for life.
GRACE: I think he`s looking at 35 years, and that`s running the charges consecutively. One after the next, after the next. I`m very surprised that`s all. Back out to Michael Christian. What do we know about that 35-year number we heard?
CHRISTIAN: That`s right, Nancy. As you just said, that would be if he was convicted of everything and they would all run consecutively. He is 64 now. So if he did get a 35-year-old sentence, that would effectively be a life sentence for him, but 35 is the limit.
GRACE: You know, Clark, I want to go through some of the evidence. Do I have Clark Goldband, Clark, are you with me? I can`t see you.
GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy, I can hear you.
GRACE: Let`s go through what we know they`ve got as evidence. What do you know?
GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, when he was arrested, law enforcement said, this suspected child pedophile consented to both cell phone searches and computer searches. Now, that`s key, because in addition to all of those messages that were saved by law enforcement, law enforcement also has the other end of the conversations, first source, from the suspected criminal himself. But, Nancy, I want to read you a stanza that law enforcement put in their arrest affidavit. Listen to this conversation from this alleged pedophile. He thinks he`s talking to a 14-year-old girl. It says in part -- "if you get caught with me, they arrest me. People discover we are lovers and find out your age, there will certainly be a scandal. We need to make a plan to handle it OK. I sincerely would love you to be in my life."
GRACE: Let`s take a look at some of the e-mails that were sent back and forth. He told her, the undercover officer claimed to be a very, very mature 14-year-old girl. And said her father is out of her life. Oshman tells her she should get parental permission before joining his family, but it starts there. But then it slides down the slope. What do we know happened after that?
GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, he writes about impulses that he has and fantasies. This suspect even allegedly says that he thinks of the 14-year- old girl while having sexual relations with his wife. And describes it in very graphic fashion.
GRACE: Out to Peter Odom, former prosecutor turned defense attorney. Peter, I`m sure you`ve already thought of a couple of ways that you can attack the case. Give me your best shot.
ODOM: Well, keep in mind, Nancy, and I love the way when you talk about the 14-year-old girl you get that little catch in your voice, but there`s no victim here. The person on the other end of that computer was not a girl. It was a detective. It was a middle aged detective.
GRACE: Let`s try not to attack each other. Let`s try to focus on the case.
ODOM: On the fact this was not a crime.
GRACE: It doesn`t concern me at all when you try to insult me or criticize me.
ODOM: I`m not being insulting, Nancy. I think it`s amusing.
GRACE: Let`s try and focus on this case. So try to focus, try to stop thinking about me, if you can, for a moment, and try to focus on this case. Think like a lawyer, Peter, and tell me how you would attack this?
ODOM: It`s the only way I can think, Nancy.
He hasn`t been arrested for committing a crime. He`d been arrested for thinking about committing a crime and talking about committing a crime. Remember, on the other end of that computer was not a live victim. It was a middle-aged detective who was sending him messages to get him to further his chat with her.
So this is an attempt to commit a crime, maybe it`s an inchoate crime. If there`s a victim here, Nancy, it`s a victim that they haven`t even thought about charging him with abusing, and that`s his family.
GRACE: OK.
ODOM: His daughter and his wife.
GRACE: Peter, where is it that you went to law school?
ODOM: I went to Pepperdine Law School.
GRACE: I`m sure at Pepperdine, they taught you the meaning of the legal phrase "overt act." When someone has a plan, just thinking about a crime, it can`t land you in jail. You must commit an overt act, and in this case, out to Michael Christian, investigative reporter, his overt act was going to meet the girl that he wanted to bring home to have sex with his wife and himself. Is that correct?
CHRISTIAN: That would be correct, and the fascinating thing here is that the wife apparently knew, Nancy, and was willing to go along with it. Now, she hasn`t been charged. It`s not clear whether there`s enough to charge her with anything or not, but she accompanied him to this meeting and brought their baby. So she apparently admitted to authorities after his arrest that she knew that he was planning to have sex with this 14- year-old girl.
GRACE: Out to Pete in Florida. Hi, Pete. What your question?
CALLER: I read online that this man was baited and set up by cops.
GRACE: OK. Marc Klaas, it`s like shooting a fish in a barrel on this one. I`m going to throw it to you.
KLAAS: Well, sure, Nancy. I mean, this is a guy that made the initial overture. And the whole idea that there`s not a real victim and there`s not a 14-year-old who`d been raped as a result of this man`s actions I think is a testament to law enforcement for intervening, cutting this guy off, and doing what they need to do to get him off of the streets. Because there is no question that if he gets away with it this time, he`ll continue to have those fantasies, and he`ll continue to have those obsessions, and he will just strike again and again and again.
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, the thing I don`t understand is why they didn`t charge the mother? She`s going along with the husband. They got their baby daughter in the car with them. To go pick up a 14-year-old girl for sex. That is child rape. A child at age 14 cannot consent to sex. All right? That is sex under the law. She`s got her baby in the car with her. She`s going along with it.
KLAAS: Yes, there`s no question about that. In fact, she said that she was going to participate in the sexual encounter. It seems to me that this woman needs to be arrested as well. That baby needs to be put in protective custody.
GRACE: You know, what concerned me, Dr. William Morrone, joining me tonight, medical examiner, specialist out of Madison Heights, is if the infant baby would be molested. I would be concerned about that. What do you do with that, doctor?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: There are people that are specially trained. There`s nurses and doctors, a part of community mental health and emergency departments that would examine that baby closely --
GRACE: Whoa. Wait a minute, Morrone. Hold on. I`m getting new pictures of this guy, Cliff Oshman. This is the guy? Trying to have sex with a 14-year-old girl? The guy`s standing there with a poodle? Oh -- oh, man. All right. OK. Go ahead, doctor.
MORRONE: So a criminal sexual conduct, CSC nurses are specially trained in forensics and X-rays and physical exams to check the child out for trauma, lacerations, and bruises, and they`re more than likely, somebody who has this kind of poor insight, mental illness and criminal mind-set, very important to check that out.
GRACE: I don`t think he`s got a mental illness, Morrone. I think he`s just plain, old evil.
Clark, what do we know about the mom and the daughter?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, we talked to law enforcement just before air, and they told us they don`t think they have enough to charge the mom with anything. As far as this young child, DCF was notified, and that`s all law enforcement will tell us. But to answer your question, Department of Child and Families there in Florida, has been notified.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say Cliff Oshman admitted he`d been using his cell phone and laptop to talk with someone he thought was a child. That he came to this shopping plaza to meet her for sex. She allegedly told authorities both she and her husband were supposed to have sex with the 14-year-old. The wife wasn`t arrested, but police say they had plenty of evidence to arrest the husband, Oshman. Oshman was allegedly out of state while engaged online, but police say the family returned home, then walked several miles, baby in tow, to the store, allegedly to pick up and violate a child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Incredible. And now police say they don`t have enough evidence to arrest the mom? That took her infant child along for the ride, in order to have sex with a 14-year-old little girl? To those of you just joining us, Michael Christian, what happened?
CHRISTIAN: This is the man, again, Nancy, who had been communicating with someone he thought was a 14-year-old girl for months on the Internet. It turned out she was an undercover cop. When he went to meet her, to apparently have sex with her, to invite her into his cozy family, he was arrested.
GRACE: I`m just wondering how it all went down, when he pulls up. I wonder what he did? Clark, do we have any details? What, did they go in the grocery store to look for the girl? What happened? Do we know?
GOLDBAND: The nuts and bolts are not in the affidavit. But what I can tell you, Nancy, is he was apprehended right outside of that Aldi grocery store, and when he was, he basically, according to authorities, admitted almost everything that they alleged.
Now, he has not been tried. This is what police are telling us through court documents, but he allegedly admits that, yes, he wanted to bring the girl into his cozy family, as Michael Christian just said. That he wanted to have sex with the child, according to authorities, among a host of other graphic sexual things that we`ve discussed.
GRACE: Graphic sexual things. What?
GOLDBAND: That he wants to make love to this child, so to speak, Nancy.
GRACE: All right. Yes, I did already hear that. Peter Odom, there goes your argument he was just going in for a dozen eggs. OK?
ODOM: I didn`t make that argument.
GRACE: The cops come up to him, he admits everything. To the police.
ODOM: Well, you know, keep in mind, Nancy, this is a guy without any criminal history whatsoever.
GRACE: I don`t care.
ODOM: Well -- I mean --
GRACE: What does that mean to me?
ODOM: It goes to intent.
GRACE: Neither did Ted Bundy until he was convicted for mass murder.
ODOM: This is hardly Ted Bundy.
GRACE: You know what -- I guarantee -- you go ahead.
ODOM: This is someone accused of committing what`s called an inchoate crime, meaning it never reached the level of a crime. He was thinking about it, he was talking about it, and he drove there. So just put it in perspective. It`s an inchoate crime. He never actually got to commit the crime.
GRACE: OK. I know you`re crazy, and you know you`re crazy, but I`m concerned the viewers might actually believe you. Marc Klaas, when you hear a defense like that, I agree with you. What would they want? For the child to be raped? Is that when it`s OK to arrest somebody? And then what will they say? It was consensual, or that she led them on? It seems like, no matter what, there`s going to be some answer. They are going to try to get that statement thrown out, Marc Klaas, and if they do, they`ll be arguing at trial, he was just going in to get a gallon of milk.
KLAAS: I think what`s key to this is he said that age didn`t matter to him. He understands that it`s against the law to do what he was doing. He understands that the society frowns upon it, but in his own mind, in his own morality, there`s absolutely nothing wrong with having sex with young children. That`s why he will continue to -- he will continue to lurk and strike at young kids, whenever he has an opportunity.
GRACE: Clark, what can you tell me about a book that was published?
GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy, we`ve done a little research, and he apparently wrote a book entitled "Lies and the Truth to Intimacy." This appears to be a self-published book that was available on a website published by the suspect, and you just commented a few moments ago on some of those pictures you saw of the suspect. Those came from that website, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s the name of the book?
GOLDBAND: The name of the book is "Love Without Lies: Path to True and Lasting Intimacy."
GRACE: And may I ask what it`s about?
GOLDBAND: Well, it`s about how to --
GRACE: Don`t tell me to read it.
GOLDBAND: It`s about how to find your happiness, and there you see the photos on your screen right now of the suspect. These we obtained from that website, and, Nancy, that book was offered for sale.
GRACE: OK. Peter Odom -- Peter Odom, just imagine your client publishing a book online, self-publishes. How many excerpts from that book--
ODOM: I`m hoping my clients aren`t going to do that.
GRACE: -- do you think the prosecutor is going to pull out and put on a big screen in front of a jury? Every one that relates to this act. What are you going to do? Just sit there and act like you aren`t there? As a defense lawyer? What do you do, just like look down at your shoes?
ODOM: Not much you can do. I`ll tell you, though, Nancy.
GRACE: Is that why you guys sit there and take notes, like, oh, yes. Okey-dokey. (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know, personal trainer. OK? I like the one of him kind of dancing on the front porch with the poodle.
ODOM: The hat and the poodle. Now, that`s a crime.
GRACE: Peter -- Peter, what concerns me is this went on for months. For months. Judy Ho, psychologist L.A. This is all a -- a part of a process called grooming. When you continue talking to your future molestation victim until they trust you, until suddenly the things you`re doing don`t seem wrong. That`s what that is. That`s what grooming is.
HO: Right, Nancy, and this guy doesn`t have the confidence. He doesn`t think he has what it takes to go after a partner who has the ability to make decisions as an adult. He can`t go after people who actually have the mental capacity. He has to go after somebody who can`t make those decisions, who can be swayed by an adult, because that`s what teenagers are taught to do.
GRACE: And (inaudible), what do you do with your children, your children that are 8 years old to 18 years old that have a computer at home? What can a parent do to protect them from people like this guy, Cliff Oshman?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The main thing is be involved. Be aware of what they`re looking at on the Internet. There`s many programs out there you can get that monitor keywords. Send it to your e-mail. You have to be over-vigilant.
GRACE: If your child gets a key word that alerts you. Right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Absolutely. There`s many cheap programs out there that are very effective in doing that and informing parents as to where their kids are online.
GRACE: Everybody, when we come back, mom heads out for a morning walk. She`s never seen again. Eight days later, mommy`s found dead, face- down in a field, 35 miles from home. Family immediately pointing the finger at the prime suspect, her own daughter.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Tonight, to San Diego. Mom heads out for a morning walk. She`s never seen again. Eight days later, she`s found face down, dead in a field. A field that is 35 miles from her home. The whole family immediately points the finger at the prime suspect -- her own daughter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 42 year old Gazelle Mansuri (ph) in a white jailhouse jumpsuit as she was put in handcuffs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The death of a family matriarch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nuria Mansuri (ph), the body found under this tree on the Boronoa (ph) Indian reservation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you do this to her? She didn`t deserve this. She loved you. She gave her life to you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim`s daughter, Gazelle Mansuri, now charged with first degree murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The murder that has rocked a close family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I talked to her, I saw no emotion. I said she did it. She did it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Accused of killing her own mother that she lived with. To Dave Mack, morning talk show host, WAAX, Dave, what happened?
DAVE MACK, WAAX TALK SHOW HOST: Nancy, the daughter has her one story, which is mom went out for a walk. But neighbors said they argued constantly. And the day before mom went missing, she was heard talking to somebody that wasn`t seen by the neighbor and was saying, I`m not paying for that, I`m not paying for that.
Flash forward, eight days later, she`s found face down 35 miles from her home, and her daughter`s arrested.
GRACE: To think her grown daughter would kill the elderly mother, age 79. Justin Freiman (ph), I understand they lived together. The daughter lived with her boyfriend in the basement. That was fine. But what concerns me, what leads me to suspect the daughter as well is the fact that she did not report her mother missing. Her 79-year-old mom goes out for a walk as she did every morning, 8:30, to walk her dog, she never called police?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right, Nancy. Actually, the police weren`t even notified until extended family who live in the area came to the house the next day, found the house a mess, didn`t find the 79-year-old mother. And then they called authorities.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. Straight back out to Justin Freiman. What were you telling me about her not calling police?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right, Nancy. She did not call police after she noticed that her mom has not even been around. It actually happened the next day, family members who were close to them because they lived in the area, they visited the home, and they couldn`t find her. And they say the house was a mess. That`s why they called the police to say this woman, she`s missing. And they went out and searched with police for the missing woman.
GRACE: Now she would go on that walk, Dave Mack, every single morning at 8:30, isn`t that right?
MACK: Absolutely, Nancy, and everybody knew her routine. So they knew the daughter was lying. It was her own family that pointed the finger at her and told police you need to look at this 42-year-old woman living in the garage.
GRACE: You know what is chilling to me, Dave, is when you saw another family member, and the family member says she did it. When I asked her about her mother, she was so cold.
MACK: Yes, that was the first thing they all thought. She`s got a criminal background. Nancy, but the family is distraught, they are frustrated, because they knew that the 42-year-old daughter was involved. The real key is the daughter`s boyfriend. I think he tipped police. And that`s what gave them the key to finding the mom.
GRACE: Kylie, Ohio, hi, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Myself, I don`t think there`s any evidence this daughter did it. So why did they think it was her?
GRACE: Well, the fact that she lived with her mother and the mother had apparently been gone nearly 72 hours, and the daughter never reported her missing. I think that is what piqued cops` interest to start with.
Everyone, we remember tonight, American hero, Army Specialist Andrew AJ Castro, just 20, Wesley (ph) Village, California. National Defense Service Medal, Army Service Ribbon. Parents Hector and Carmen. Brothers Ryan and Steven. AJ Castro, American hero.
Everyone, Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
