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Nancy Grace
Colorado 8-Year-Old Taken From Bedroom; Martin MacNeill Facelift Trial: Doctor`s Second Mistress Testifies
Aired October 30, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, to Aurora, an 8-year-old little girl doing homework in her own bunk bed snatched through an unlocked bedroom window. Bombshell tonight. APB -- all points bulletin -- for white male with blond hair and a gray or silver BMW.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looks like an unknown party came in through the daughter`s bedroom window.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the suspect removed a screen and was able to reach through an unlocked window. That`s how he grabbed hold of that little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It had to be somebody they knew to know which room she was in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This predator is on the loose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: White man, blond hair, black coat, smelling of cigarettes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think there`s a predator out there, and he has to be stopped and he has to be caught.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Utah, the facelift murder trial. Yet another of husband Martin MacNeill`s lovers on the stand. And she tells the jury under oath Martin MacNeill bragged to her that he had come up with the perfect murder, to administer drugs that could never be detected that would absolutely cause a fatal heart attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s start off with April 11th, 2007.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s the day my mother died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Martin ever describe to you a process of making someone have a heart attack?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw my mom and she appeared to be very sedated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s something you can give someone that`s natural, that`s there after they have a heart attack, so that it`s not detectable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said, yes, I think I gave her too much medicine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Leaving messages for my mom saying that he was worried, he needed her to stay in bed. I`m just going to stay here with Mom so I can help her. He insisted that I leave. He pretty much forced me out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do you recall first meeting Jillian?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably three weeks or a couple weeks after my mom passed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She wasn`t somebody to worry about that my dad might be involved with.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because she was nothing like my mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... how she functioned as a nanny, what she did around the home, what she did for you as...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She didn`t. She didn`t do much. She made spaghetti once.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the topic of Gypsy come up?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The phone records -- he was still calling the number that belonged to Gypsy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I remember her going up into my dad`s room at night. We were staying up at night thinking, What in the world? I mean, I thought she was our nanny. Why is she up in Dad`s room?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. First, before we go live to Utah and the facelift murder trial, breaking news in Aurora, Colorado. An 8-year-old little girl, doing her own homework in her own bunk bed, snatched through an unlocked bedroom window. Tonight, all points bulletin for a white male with blond hair and a gray or silver BMW.
Everybody, we are taking your calls. I want you to know the tip line, 720- 913-STOP, 720-913-7867. Right now, there`s a $20,000 reward to find this guy.
Straight out to Robyn Walensky, anchor/reporter with TheBlaze. So the little girl is on her bunk bed, doing her homework in her bedroom. What happens?
ROBYN WALENSKY, THEBLAZE.COM: You know, Nancy, the absolute audacity of this guy. He goes to the house. He`s obviously a sexual predator, and had his eye on this cute little 8-year-old. And there`s a screen right by the bedroom. So you kind of think that he was scoping out the house.
And he cuts through the screen. The window is unlocked, a huge mistake when you have children of that age. And he`s able to grab her. He puts his hand literally over her mouth so you can`t hear the screams, and they run off into the alley.
GRACE: Let`s talk about the window. I`m going to work back up to where you were, Robyn -- the window. The window, did you say, was open? Was there a screen on it?
WALENSKY: Yes, there was a screen on it. He actually cut through that screen and then was able to open the window from there. And an 8-year-old, Nancy, as you know -- you the children, you have the twins -- it`s very easy to get a little girl out through the window. And then he has his mouth over her face. She must have been scared to death. And the next thing you know, they`re in the alley behind the home.
GRACE: Who was in the home, Robyn Walensky? How many people? I know Mom and Dad were there.
WALENSKY: Yes, and there was apparently a brother or sister, I believe a sister that was in the room.
I want to point out, Nancy, that in this area of Aurora, Colorado, there are 900 sex offenders, and almost 400 of them live within two-mile radius of this particular house. So police have a lot of tips. They have the description on him. He is a white man...
GRACE: OK, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait!
WALENSKY: Go ahead.
GRACE: OK, go ahead with the description. I was -- I just wanted to see our sex offender mount (ph) so I could match up those sex offenders to this location in Aurora, Colorado. Liz, if you could put that up? Robyn Walensky is talking about the sex offenders in the area. There are 900, nearly 400 within a two-mile radius of where this girl is.
Michael Christian, let`s talk about the window. How high up is it off the ground? And we saw the screening cut. Let`s see that video.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER/PRODUCER (via telephone): It`s a ground floor window, Nancy. It`s on the first floor of the home. Police believe that this person may have just been driving by, walking by, saw a light on in this girl`s window, went and looked, saw what he liked, and decided to make a move.
GRACE: What do we know? Are there any burglar alarms, Justin Freiman, also on the case? What do we know?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): We have not been told of any alarms. I do know that the family did have dogs, but no sign that they alerted anybody at this time.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. He lived through this himself when his daughter, Polly, was taken from her home by an intruder.
Marc, I`d like to hear your thoughts.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think a better characterization than had his eye on the little girl would be that he probably stalked her for some period of time.
Now, I think the huge lesson in this, Nancy -- and this is something that everybody watching the show needs to take away -- is that that little girl did exactly what she should have done at that moment. She screamed. She fought. She kicked. She managed to get away from that guy and save her own life.
The more that -- or the -- the longer that she waits to try to get away, the more distance that`s put between her and her family, her and the authorities, the more isolated she becomes, the more difficult it will be for her to escape.
So everybody needs to pay attention to what this child did. It was a heroic move. She probably saved her own life, and she has given a great lesson to the rest of us.
GRACE: Well, take a look at that back yard again, everybody. Notice this family has a fence in the back yard. Not that shot, that`s the back of the house where they store things. Take a look. They`ve got a fence enclosing the back yard.
Now, a lot of us think, Hey, that`s great, that gives you a degree of safety. It didn`t work this time.
To Robyn Walensky. Neither of the parents, neither of them are under suspicion in any way. Tell me how it went down, Robyn.
WALENSKY: You know, this is basically, as your other guests have said, that this is someone, clearly, who has, I believe, a record. You know, I don`t have a crystal ball, but I`ve covered so many of these cases where you have these sexual predators that are living in neighborhoods. They live near schools, unfortunately. They`re running around. They see these cute little kids, and they do target them. That`s what I was saying, you know, having their eye on -- that`s my expression for targeting.
GRACE: Oh, yes. I mean, Robyn...
WALENSKY: It`s terrible.
GRACE: Robyn, I want to follow up on what Marc Klaas just said, Robyn. I want to see the picture of the home again, if you don`t mind, Liz. I want to point something out.
Now, this is a typical back yard in America. That`s where everybody hides everything they don`t want out in the front yard, their lawn chairs, their equipment, their trash can, the trampoline. Everything`s back there so the front yard can look nice, OK?
This guy didn`t just walk by her window and see her. He`d have to jump this, looks like about a six-and-a-half-foot fence to just happen to see her through her window, it looks like. So he absolutely had to stalk her, like Marc Klaas was saying, Robyn Walensky. He had to because he wouldn`t have seen her just casually because of this fence.
WALENSKY: Absolutely. This child caught his eye, whether it was at the local Walmart or Target or at a schoolyard or at the local ice cream store, at the movie theater or somewhere, and he tracked this family down.
There was clearly, based on what this house looks like with the back yard, like you`re showing everyone -- there was clearly, Nancy, surveillance. Just like when people break into homes with burglaries, this guy was targeting this woman. I don`t think -- this little girl. I don`t think it was a random act.
I just do want to point out, though, Nancy, that the one thing that might give this guy up with the 900 sex offenders roaming around is that he smelled like cigarettes. He -- the child has said that he smelled like smoke. So I think hat that, you know, weeds out a certain amount of people, that not everyone is smoking.
GRACE: OK, what do we know, Justin -- do we know -- just if you could give me a yes/no as best as you can right now.
Everybody, for those of you that think your kids are protected, you have a fence or you`ve got a lock on the window, this girl in her home, this child in her home -- she`s 8 years old -- sitting on her bunk bed in her room -- Mommy and Daddy in the home. A guy reaches through the open window, cuts the screen and pulls the girl out.
It is my understanding -- out to you, Marc Klaas. It`s my understanding he put his hand over her mouth and was saying something about, I know your mom and dad. Don`t scream. I know your family.
KLAAS: Well, he very well may know the family. I mean, that may very well may be the key to getting this guy arrested and bringing justice to this case. For some reason, somehow or other, he had his eye on that little girl. And that really is the downside of being pretty. You know, the upside is that you get to walk the red carpet. The downside is that you attract the attention of the wrong person, and then they do horrible things to you.
But again, this little girl saved her own life and created a blueprint for how children should respond when they find themselves in this situation.
GRACE: Back to you, Michael Christian. Again, yes/no, as best as you can. We`re trying to find out who this guy is. He didn`t get this girl in the end. She`s not dead, praise God. But this guy is still out there. Look at him. Look at him. Tip line, 720-913-STOP -- 7867.
Michael Christian, did they have a burglar alarm?
CHRISTIAN: You know, I have not read that, Nancy.
GRACE: OK.
CHRISTIAN: As Justin said earlier, they did have dogs, but apparently, the dogs did not react. From what we understand, as the girl broke away from this kidnapper, she screamed -- or she was attempting to break away, she screamed. The screams woke up her father.
GRACE: Got it.
CHRISTIAN: Her father ran out of the home...
GRACE: So it wasn`t...
CHRISTIAN: ... toward the back alley...
GRACE: ... a burglar alarm.
CHRISTIAN: ... and that`s where the girl came running toward him.
GRACE: A couple of...
CHRISTIAN: She`d broken free.
GRACE: A couple of quick questions, Justin. So we don`t know about the burglar alarm. Let me ask you this. We know there was a fence around the home. Do we know if both parents were asleep that night?
FREIMAN: We do not know yet if the parents were asleep, but they think that Ben (ph) was alerted because there was a light on in the room.
GRACE: Do we know if the perp was wearing gloves? To cut through that screen and to possibly touch the window could be the key, Justin. Do we have any idea if he was wearing gloves?
FREIMAN: They have not reported anything about gloves or a fingerprint at this point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are bringing you breaking news out of Aurora, Colorado. These are the suburbs just outside the city. An 8-year- old little girl, sitting on a bunk bed in her own bedroom -- Mommy and Daddy, sibling at home, dogs at home you`d think would be barking, right? - - on her bunk bed doing her homework in her room, an unknown male, a white male with blond, we believe, close-cropped hair, drags the girl through her window, takes the girl.
We are taking your calls. I want to go back out to Justin Freiman on those questions. We were talking about whether the perpetrator was wearing gloves. What do you know about any evidence he left behind?
FREIMAN: There`s not been any reports of gloves or a fingerprint left behind at this time, Nancy.
GRACE: Do we have any idea where the family had been, if anywhere, that evening? Had they been to church? Had they been to the ballfield, gymnastics practice, the mall, Burger King, anything where she could have been spotted and followed home?
FREIMAN: All we`ve been told is that the grandmother says the girl was doing her homework in her room at the time of the abduction. We don`t know where they were beforehand.
GRACE: We know white male, short blond hair, black winter jacket, smelled of cigarettes. Tip line, 720-913-STOP.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Everyone, an 8-year-old girl kidnapped out of her own bedroom, sitting on her bunk bed, doing homework, Mommy and Daddy at home. The good news is she`s alive.
Straight out to Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, how did she get away?
KLAAS: Well, she just wouldn`t allow herself to be a victim. It`s as simple as that, Nancy. She fought, she screamed, she bit. She did everything she had to do to get out of his grasp, and then she went screaming back towards her house and she managed to save her own life. This is so important. She is so brave that we have to look at this and we have to take this as a lesson.
GRACE: To Robyn Walensky, anchor/reporter with TheBlaze. What do we know about the perp? We know there was a gray or silver BMW sedan. What else do we know?
WALENSKY: That`s right. It was apparently a newer model BMW, silver or gray, Nancy, and that he looks sort of on the young side. He doesn`t look that old to my eye, based on the sketch that I`ve seen and that you`re showing on the show. He`s white. He has short blond hair. And he was wearing this heavy black coat. Obviously, you can lose the coat.
But the distinct thing here is the smell, distinct smell of cigarettes. And I believe, Nancy, that somebody is going to get this guy because so far at this hour, there are more than 50 tips and growing of people that think that they may know something about this case.
GRACE: To Justin Freiman. Justin, was their home -- there it is, near 17th Street, just outside Aurora -- was it near a mall? Was it near a big intersection or even a highway, such as an interstate? Was it near anything that would attract people that did not live in that neighborhood?
FREIMAN: Nancy, they seem to live in a fairly residential area. But I do have to report that locals are saying that there is a sex offender living in an apartment building near the girl`s home on the same block.
GRACE: Everybody, stay with us. When we come back, we go live to Utah, the facelift murder trial, yet another of husband Martin MacNeill`s lovers on the stand. And she says -- she tells the jury, looking straight in their eyes under oath, that Dr. Martin MacNeill bragged to her that he had come up with the perfect murder, to administer drugs to his victim that could never be detected, drugs that would absolutely cause an undetected and fatal heart attack.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The facelift murder trial, yet another of husband Martin MacNeill`s lovers on the stand. And she says under oath MacNeill bragged to her that he had come up with the perfect murder, to administer drugs that could never be detected, drugs that would absolutely cause a fatal heart attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the day that Michele died...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... did you see her that morning?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever speak to your mom that morning?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did she seem to you physically?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Physically, she was normal. There was -- I mean, there was nothing odd about her behavior at all. She was doing great. She was happy. She was getting up, ready -- she was ready for the day.
She was tired because she`d just woken up, but there was -- we had a perfectly just normal conversation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... said she was going to pick up the girls from school and...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there a routine?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had ballet and they had -- you know, yes, they had a very specific routine every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everyone, we are live in Provo and taking your calls. At the courthouse, Jean Casarez and Jim Kirkwood, talk show host KTKK.
Jean, another lover on the stand?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And this was really a bombshell in the courtroom today. She was allowed to testify before the jury that Martin MacNeill, in pillow talk, had told her that he knew how to murder somebody and cover it up.
GRACE: Let`s go into the courtroom. On the stand, another mistress.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Martin ever describe to you a process of making someone have a heart attack?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you tell us what he said to you about that subject?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But let me -- I`m sorry, let me pull back. Do you recall where you were when this conversation took place?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At my house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Park City?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do you recall about when this would have happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can guess, but I can`t recall.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Fair to say it`s some time within that March to October time period?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you narrow it down any more than that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably closer to October.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. OK, now, specifically about what he said about inducing a heart attack, what did he tell you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s something you can give someone that`s natural, that`s there after they have a heart attack, so that it`s not detectable after they have a heart attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So you can give someone some sort of substance that`s naturally occurring in the body, and it would be there after the heart attack, but it would also start a heart attack.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so you could cause someone to have a heart attack, and the drug would -- supposed to be there anyway, and so you wouldn`t be able to tell?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: On the stand, yet another of Martin MacNeill`s lovers.
Now, let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Eleanor Odom, death penalty-qualified prosecutor. Also with me, Tanya Peters, trial lawyer, joining me from the courthouse. Also tonight, defense attorney, former prosecutor Peter Odom, joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
You know, Eleanor, I`ve heard over and over and over defense attorneys whining that this is a character assassination. Actually, this is called motive evidence.
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Exactly, Nancy. And this is so important because it links the doctor to his wife`s death by telling someone, you know, privately, Hey, I know how to kill without it being detected. And that`s what he has done in this case, Nancy. Very critical piece of evidence today.
GRACE: To Tanya Peters. How do you think this is affecting the jury, yet another mistress? And it`s not just about him having sex with all these women during his marriage with Michele, which is bad enough, but the fact that he bragged to her that he had the perfect murder, that he knew a cocktail of drugs that would cause a heart attack and it would be undetected.
PETERS: Well, that`s the testimony of this witness, Nancy. But as you may be aware, this witness also testified she`s been previously diagnosed with having dissociative personality disorder. And has a history of psychiatric instability, which may go to her credibility later.
GRACE: Okay. Tanya Peters, if you put every person in this country that had some type of an emotional or mental defect, be it narcissism or split personalities like Cybil (ph), like this woman claimed she`s had in the past, there`d be nobody left walking the streets. There`d be nobody left. So you might as well just empty the jury box. There`s probably people on that jury who have a sister, or a cousin, or an aunt, or an uncle, a neighbor that has this exact personality disorder, this mental defect. So what? You just throw out her testimony? I don`t think that`s going to touch her. I think she`s got to be caught in a lie.
But to your side, Tanya Peters, everybody, Tanya joining me also from the Provo courthouse, she`s already got one strike against her because she`s sleeping with a married man with eight children. All right? She`s her own character assassination. Just who she is and what she`s testifying to, the jury already doesn`t like her because she`s breaking up a home with eight children involved. You know, I think that`s a lot more serious of an impeachment issue than her having a mental defect.
PETERS: Well, what`s going to happen here is the trial judge in this case so far has ruled that the majority of the evidence is coming in. And what`s going to happen, he`s going to give an instruction to the jury at the close of the evidence for them to give the evidence the credibility and the weight they think it deserves. And so that`s what they`ll do. The jury will evaluate this particular witness` testimony and decide how credible it is.
GRACE: Okay. We all know the charge the judge is going to give the jury about the fact that they are the sole judge of credibility and they can decide who they believe and don`t believe. We know that. But Peter Odom, come on. Speaking of evidence that`s not going to come in, there`s a lot of evidence against MacNeill that is not going to come in. I think the jury`s going to believe this witness, another mistress, and you know why, Peter, because they`ve already heard from one mistress. It`s not just her, Gypsy Willis, here`s another one. Are they all lying?
PETER ODOM, ATTORNEY: Well, if the jury is going to believe this conversation about a murder plot occurred, then they`re going to have to believe this witness. I got a lot of questions for this witness. How about this? When did she first tell police this? Because she couldn`t have told police that back when the case was first being investigated. When did she come up with that?
GRACE: (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`ve got an answer for you.
ODOM: She`s a former mistress.
GRACE: She came forward with that after Michele MacNeill, his wife, turned up dead in the bathtub with him hovering over her. But speaking of testimony the jury`s not going to hear. Let`s go to the courtroom, mistress on the stand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s talk about you and Martin. How did your relationship develop over time?
ANNA WALTHALL, DOCTOR`S SECOND MISTRESS: He was -- he volunteered to be a liaison between my ex and me. And so we had more of a personal relationship because of that. He knew where my ex was. And then he ended up volunteering to help me with communicating and working out the divorce decree and eventually --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Okay. My head is spinning. She just said, Dr. Martin MacNeill was going to help her and her husband with their marital problems.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As Dr. MacNeill took on more personal roles in your life, did your relationship become something more than --
WALTHALL: Yes, I became personally involved with him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Personally involved, OK. Did that relationship ever become sexual?
WALTHALL: Yes, it did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it fair to say you and Dr. MacNeill began an affair?
WALTHALL: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Roughly, when did that begin?
WALTHALL: March of 2005.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever discuss Martin`s brother with him?
WALTHALL: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Specifically the death of Martin`s brother?
WALTHALL: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he say about his brother`s death at this point?
WALTHALL: He said that his brother was a cutter. And he said that his brother lived with his mother, and that he would -- he didn`t really want to die, but that he would cut himself --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He Martin or he the brother?
WALTHALL: No, the brother. He would cut himself to get attention. He said his mother was out running errands or something, and the brother called Martin and told him that he had cut himself, and Martin went over to his house and saw blood. And his brother was in the bathtub, and that Martin held him under the bath -- under the water until he drowned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Whoa. Okay. Hold on, Jim Kirkwood, I think I need to have my ears fixed. Did I hear this woman, another mistress of Dr. Martin MacNeill`s, say MacNeill basically bragged that his brother, who was emotionally disturbed, was cutting himself again, was in the bathtub, and he held him down under the water until he drowned?
JIM KIRKWOOD, TALK SHOW HOST: That`s what this woman reported, Nancy. And frankly, I believe her. What reason would she have to lie? And supposedly she had mental issues. Well, they`re not the sort that would confuse you on what someone said. Split personalities, big deal.
GRACE: You know, you`re right about that. To Jean Casarez, speaking of the brother, speaking of the brother that he possibly killed, drowned, just like he allegedly did to his wife Michele, is that brother dead?
CASAREZ: I don`t think he`s dead. At least he wasn`t from that incident. But Nancy, that did not come before the jury today.
GRACE: I know that. I`m just trying to find out about--
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I know that didn`t come before the jury. That`s what I was just about to go to the lawyers on. But I`m trying to find out if MacNeill has a brother that is deceased.
Unleash the lawyers. Peter Odom, Tanya Peters, also joining me tonight, straight to you, Eleanor. The fact he said this, that he was talking about drowning someone in the tub, and this was long before Michele MacNeill was found dead, drowned basically in the tub, according to Dr. Joshua Perper, I find highly probative.
E. ODOM: I do, too, Nancy. It`s a prior bad act, and I think if something like that gets before the jury, I think that goes to show his motive and his M.O., if you will.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Letty, California. Hi, Letty, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, yes, this is just more of a comment. What do you think, the way that the pictures show the bathtub that Mrs. MacNeill`s head was underneath the faucet, the way that Ada drew it and from other testimony. And I guarantee you that a lady with a face full of stitches and dressings would never get into a tub with her face or her head underneath the hard metal faucets. So I think he put her in backwards, even if she was put in the other direction, dressed fully in the blue running suit, and let the water fill up as the other daughter said, she lets the water fill up and then she gets in the tub. Who turned the water off?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mom had confided in me that she was concerned that my dad was having an affair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did that relationship ever become sexual?
WALTHALL: Yes, it did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Is it fair to say that you and Dr. MacNeill began an affair?
WALTHALL: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told her that she was crazy. He said that it`s ridiculous. He`s not having an affair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you and Martin have intimate conversations during this affair?
WALTHALL: We did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did the conversations like that usually occur?
WALTHALL: Pillow talk.
You know, after you have sex and you`re just laying there and you feel close and you talk a little more openly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not going to let this die, that`s what she said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. We are live in Provo and taking your calls. You know, to Matt Zarrell, you`ve got some information on that brother. Is he dead? And how did he die?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
GRACE: If so.
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, the chief investigator, Jeff Robinson (ph), confirmed that the brother, Rufus Roy MacNeill (ph), he was found dead in a bathtub in New Jersey. It was ruled a suicide, Nancy. MacNeill was not put under investigation.
GRACE: Ruh-roh. All right, Peter Odom, the brother is dead, suicide in the bathtub. And now all these years later, his wife is dead in the bathtub, drowned. That`s quite a coincidence, isn`t it, Peter?
P. ODOM: Well, Nancy, first of all, to believe he even said that, you have to believe this witness that claims he said it. Why would this man, a doctor, a lawyer, commit what he claims, you know, by her statement was going to be the perfect crime and then tell everybody about it? That`s just nonsense (ph).
GRACE: Why do you act like a doctor and lawyer is so special? Look around the courthouse, Peter -- whoa, hold on. Look around the courthouse. Look at the lawyers, all right. Some of them are so scuzzy. And you`re like, he`s a lawyer, he would never do this. Hello, oh, yes, he would do this.
P. ODOM: Doesn`t fit the prosecution`s theory.
GRACE: And you know what you are ignoring? You`re ignoring -- you`re ignoring the statistics. I know statistics are not allowed in court. But we`re not in court, Peter. Look around you. I insist, look to the left and look to the right. Do you think you`re in a courtroom? You`re not, you`re in a TV studio. So we can look at statistics. Two dead bodies in one person`s life, and they both drown in a bathtub where he happens to be on the scene? Hello!
P. ODOM: If you think that`s proof beyond a reasonable doubt, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, actually, I do. But the jury will never hear it. Out to the lines, to Carly in Illinois. Hi, Carly, what`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, I want to say I love you and I`m so grateful for you, and it`s so important what you do and I`m very thankful for you.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: My question is this. Are they going to let the youngest daughter testify? I think it is a very crucial thing that she is allowed.
GRACE: Let me tell you what the deal is on that, Carly. It is crucial, because she`s the one that found her mom dead. What they did was they played prior interviews with her in front of the jury. The jury could see her and they could hear her. And the defense wisely decided not to cross- examine her. Because if the defense cross-examined her, she would have to come into court now as a 12-year-old and redescribe what she found. And you know they didn`t want that. Oh, no. So they let that sleeping dog lie. So the jury did see what she said before, age 6, as to how she found her mom.
And I still think this is the most incredible thing. To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining me out of Philadelphia tonight. When the little girl, then 6-year-old Ada, came in, she describes her mom wearing a jogging suit, a blue top, blue bottoms, face up, in the tub, hair streaming down the faucet, eyes open, looking up. Dad comes in, MacNeill, there is the picture she drew. I don`t know if you can see that or not, Dr. Manion, but she draws the picture and describes the whole thing.
Then he sends her down the road to get, quote, help, and when she comes back and the neighbors come back, suddenly mommy doesn`t have on any clothes. She has on one thin shirt. That`s it. Everything else is gone. Adult children later find the bloody and wet clothes hidden with wet towels, also bloody, out in the garage.
Now, how in the world is there any way that Michele MacNeill could have taken her clothes off in that part -- in that space of time? It would be impossible.
DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER: I agree. And he somehow disabled her. And there are certain drugs that you can inject into someone. He could have injected insulin into her, potassium chloride, epinephrine, these are three classic drugs that are not detectable, that could cause a person to become unconscious, to have -- the insulin would cause low blood sugar and unconsciousness. Potassium chloride could cause arrhythmia, epinephrine could cause cardiac arrest. We know she does have a bad heart, to begin with, and bad coronary disease. So these are the kinds of drugs he was bragging about, and he could have injected them in sites that are not detectable at autopsy basically.
GRACE: Right now straight back into the courtroom for testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he asked her what happened. What is the happened?
ALEXIS SOMERS, DOCTOR`S DAUGHTER: What happened, because she was very sedated and overmedicated when I went in that morning, and she said, Lexie, I don`t know why, but your dad kept giving me medication. He kept giving me things telling me to swallow. She said I even started to throw up, but then he started giving me more medication and kept giving me medication, talked about how she had to drink even like the Lortab, the elixir that my dad had Dr. Thompson (ph) prescribe, but she said that he kept giving her medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Did she make any specific requests as far as how the medications would be administered to her?
SOMERS: She said she didn`t want my dad to give her any more medicine, and that she actually had me take out every single pill from the pill bottles and she wanted to feel what the pills felt like in her fingers, so that if my dad tried to give her anything, she would know what he was giving her. But she had me take out every single pill, and she felt it in her fingers, and I told her this is this medicine, this is this medicine, because at that time, she couldn`t see.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Did that persist for a couple of days until the bandages were off? As far as her --
(CROSSTALK)
SOMERS: Yes. But she said she didn`t want my dad to give her any more medication. She wanted me to be in charge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A close family.
SOMERS: My mom was my best friend. I was always around her. She was kind of like my superhero, and I always tried to be her sidekick, you know. She was someone that I just -- I adored.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was nothing like my mom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live in Provo and taking your calls. I want to go straight back into the courtroom for more testimony, crucial testimony against husband, Martin MacNeill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He came to the side of -- there was a little step, as well. And he put his hands and his head like this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he -- the witness is bending down towards the foot of the tub, on the edge that`s exposed to the tile to the room. And she`s leaning down into the tub.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He got pretty far into the tub when he showed me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s describing that the defendant got pretty far into the tub in describing this. Did he tell you where his feet or where, excuse me, Michele`s feet were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to psychologist Caryn Stark, joining me from our Manhattan studios. Karen, this is what he told his daughter at the time, that his wife was leaned over the tub like we`re going to lean over and wash our hair in the faucet and not take a bath, just wash our hair like that? That is nothing like the way she was found.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: And Nancy, you can`t believe anything that this man says. When did pillow talk turn into murder plots? You`re talking about somebody who has a lot of tendencies of being a psychopath. He has no emotions. He shows no grief. He has -- wears a wedding band. He`s not a good parent. He has no feeling, and he`s capable of being manipulative, just like in the story that you`re telling where somehow her body gets turned around. This is a very, very suspicious criminal man.
GRACE: I don`t know if you heard this or not. He called the medical examiner and said, hey, did you find anything unusual, and the medical examiner says yes, your wife doesn`t have a uterus. MacNeill just thought that was hilarious and broke out laughing, just a big joke that his wife didn`t have a uterus. I mean, and this is in death that he`s laughing at her.
STARK: Well, either, Nancy, he`s laughing or he`s screaming or he`s bringing a mistress in with his children. What kind of parent is that, or he`s wearing a wedding band right after she dies, texting a mistress. It`s really horrendous.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Speaking of Michele, having a warm bath every night, this is very important, Matt Zarrell. What did we learn, we think we learned about the way she took a bath?
ZARRELL: Here`s what`s important. MacNeill`s story is that she probably slipped and fell while she was getting into the tub and she was face down in the water. But Alexis Somers testified today that Michele always took a bath the same way. She would get into the bathtub before the water was in there. She would then turn the water on and be in the bath as the water filled up, making MacNeill`s story very unbelievable.
GRACE: Very unbelievable indeed.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Staff Sergeant Conrad Mora, 24, San Diego, California. Army Commendation Medal, six Army Achievement Medals, two Afghanistan Campaign Medals. Loved mixed martial arts. Parents Carmelito, and Aliandrino (ph). One sister, three brothers. Widow Ann. Son Christopher. Conrad Mora, American hero.
And tonight, a special Halloween from the twins. Here we are dressed up for a party this afternoon. A cheerleader and a pirate. How blessed am I?
Dr. Drew up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
