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Nancy Grace
Inmates Testify in Facelift Murder Trial
Aired November 06, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Off the top, we go live to Utah, the facelift murder trial. After their 6-year-old daughter finds Mommy dead in the bathtub and Daddy`s mistress is revealed, bombshell tonight. In the last hours, the defense demands MacNeill`s murder charges be thrown out, as a parade of cellmates say MacNeill actually bragged, I`m getting away with murder, and, quote, he "helped his wife out by holding her head under water."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just (INAUDIBLE) say, I mean, I apologize about your wife. And he said, I`m glad the bitch is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said he gave her some oxy and some sleeping pills and then got her to get in the bathtub. He said he held her head under the water for a little while.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he say he murdered his wife?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t say it like that, but he said, I`m getting away with murdering my wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said, They can`t prove anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speaking about his wife`s death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said that she was in the way, that she wanted the house and the kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that it was going downhill, that they were trying to get his money and that she wouldn`t -- she was not going to let him keep cheating on her. I asked him, you know, Are you serious about this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About murdering your wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He goes, Yes, I`m serious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, to Sunnyville (ph). At this hour, an Amber Alert in effect for a 2-week-old baby boy snatched from his own home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search is on for a 2-week-old child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) received a report of a child abduction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allegedly abducted by his own father. And it gets worse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sent her text messages saying he had taken the child and that he would cause harm to himself and the child and he had taken the child and he was leaving the area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Few possible sightings have been called in, but the father and child remain on the run.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did have pings on his phone down in the San Diego area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now authorities are on the lookout for 22-year-old Mesuk Guler (ph) and his 2-week-old son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The wife had told us he has friends in Mexico, which led us to believe he would be headed in that direction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, we go live, suburban Mesa. A young teen boy and his mom argue and he gets grounded. Mommy takes away the cell phone. Typical teen, right? Wrong. After Mommy takes the cell phone away, her own son ambushes Mommy when she gets home from work, attacking her with a kitchen frying pan and a hammer, then hides Mommy`s lifeless body in the back yard tool shed. He then lays in wait and tries to kill Daddy, too.
Just in tonight, Dad`s frantic 911 call as he somehow manages to save his own life. Is this teen really getting just a few months in juvie jail and then walk free?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are here because you have been charged with murder in the first degree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn`t have seen that coming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 16-year-old boy is accused of murdering his mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom comes home, 16-year-old immediately attacks Mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When police arrive, a hammer and frying pan found at the scene.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know where the frying pan was, whatever you left -- where you put it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the floor. Ten minutes ago since he assaulted me. And I don`t know where my wife is. He keeps saying that she`s not home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When police arrived, they found the suspect`s mother dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ultimately, you know, she is killed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. We go off the top to Utah, the facelift murder trial. After their 6-year-old daughter finds Mommy dead in the bathtub and Daddy`s mistress is revealed, in the last hours, in court, the defense demands Martin MacNeill`s murder charges be thrown out.
Then a parade of cellmates say MacNeill bragged, I`m getting away with murder, and he, quote, "helped his wife out by holding her head under water."
We are live in Provo and taking your calls. Now, the fact that one of these inmates says MacNeill stated, I helped my wife out by holding her head under water -- do you recall Martin MacNeill allegedly told another girlfriend he helped out his brother by holding his head under water? That brother was found dead in a bathtub, drowned, and everybody thought it was suicide.
Take a listen to what went down in the courtroom just an hour ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We talked, and he just pretty much opened up about it. He said that he gave her some oxy and he had gave her some sleeping pills, some kind of sleeping pills, I can`t remember. But the reason we were talking about -- he said the oxy because we had talked about oxys in class because I had been prescribed those before, and you know, I had told him about an accident I had and we talked about the oxy. But anyway, he said he gave her some oxy and some sleeping pills, and then got her to get in the bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he say what he did next?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Later on, he just said he had to help her out. And I asked him what that was, and he said he held her head under the water for a little while.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he use the phrase "help her out"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Help her out. OK, now, listen. Do you recall Anna Osbourne Walthall, all right? She was one of MacNeill`s lovers. Take a listen to what she said on the stand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever discuss Martin`s brother with him?
ANNA OSBOURNE WALTHALL, MACNEILL`S FORMER LOVER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Specifically the death of Martin`s brother?
WALTHALL: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he say about his brother`s death at this point?
WALTHALL: He said that his brother was a cutter. And he said that his brother lived with his mother and that he would -- he didn`t really want to die, but that he would cut himself...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He Martin or he the brother?
WALTHALL: No, the brother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
WALTHALL: He would cut himself to get attention. He said that his mother was out running errands or something, and his brother called Martin and told him that he had cut himself. And Martin went over to his house and saw blood, and his brother was in the bathtub and that Martin held him under the bath, under the water, until he drowned.
And I asked, like, Is that -- like, Nobody thought anything about that? I mean -- and he said it was not unusual for cutters to drown because they lose enough blood that they don`t have the strength to stay above the water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Shireen Hormozdi, defense attorney. Also with me, veteran defense attorney, former prosecutor out of the Atlanta jurisdiction Peter Odom.
Now, Peter, you were once a prosecutor before you became a defense attorney.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
GRACE: And are you trying to tell me, Peter, that you don`t find it odd that MacNeill is on the scene when two people drown in the bathtub?
ODOM: Nancy, people drown in the bathtub all the time.
GRACE: Really?
ODOM: Yes.
GRACE: Because I`ve never heard of anybody drowning in the bathtub. Kathleen Savio -- that was determined to be a murder in the Drew Peterson case, and then there is this one, when Michele MacNeill -- and MacNeill`s brother.
ODOM: People drown in the bathtub...
GRACE: Like who?
ODOM: ... from overdoses of drugs...
GRACE: Like, name one.
ODOM: Well, Rodney King.
GRACE: Name two.
ODOM: Whitney Houston.
GRACE: Name three.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Busted! You got me!
ODOM: That guy next door. That guy next door.
GRACE: But long story short, do they always have Martin MacNeill hovering over their body?
ODOM: I mean, Nancy, he wasn`t charged in that case. There was no evidence that his brother was murdered.
GRACE: I didn`t ask you was he charged. I`m just saying every -- people in his family die in the bathtub, they drown, and Martin MacNeill is hovering over their dead body. I mean, can you just take off your defense hat for one moment, Shireen, and notice that where he goes, people drop like flies?
SHIREEN HORMOZDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s a reasonable explanation for...
GRACE: OK, good. I can`t wait to hear this.
HORMOZDI: ... for him helping out his wife. He was probably helping her get her hair washed and he was explaining to that the inmates. A husband helping his wife does not make him a murderer.
GRACE: Nobody -- there`s not one scintilla of evidence to suggest he was giving her a shampoo. Did you just make that up in the Green Room before you came in here?
HORMOZDI: That`s what the defense should explain his statement to the inmates.
GRACE: Has anybody said that beside you?
HORMOZDI: (INAUDIBLE) that he was holding her under the water.
GRACE: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... the shampoo part. That`s good. I like it. I like it. It`s not true. But where did you get the idea he was giving her a shampoo?
HORMOZDI: How else would he explain that to the inmates? He was telling them what he was doing before she died.
GRACE: OK, let`s find out.
Out to Jean Casarez. Also with us, Jim Kirkwood -- Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent at the Provo courthouse. Also with me, Jim Kirkwood, talk show host, KTKK.
First to you, Jean. Did you hear anything about MacNeill trying to give his wife a little scalp massage and a shampoo, or did Shireen...
JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No.
GRACE: ... Hormozdi just cook that up as a defense for him?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: That`s not even a reasonable interpretation of the evidence. That can`t be argued. No, not at all.
GRACE: So nothing about a shampoo, Jim Kirkwood?
JIM KIRKWOOD, KTKK (via telephone): Not a thing, Nancy, not a thing.
GRACE: OK, let`s talk about what happened in court. Jean Casarez, what is the jury reaction when these inmates are coming in with these stories? And the reality is, none of them are getting a deal out of their testimony. They are separated in time and space. They are with -- in cells with MacNeill at different times, in different locations. They haven`t gotten together and cooked up this story.
How is the jury reacting to what they`re saying?
CASAREZ: They are really as focused on these inmates as they were on Dr. Perper and the medical experts in this trial. They`re taking notes. The men are leaning forward at some points. And the cross-examination is extensive on these inmates. But they`re writing notes and focused on both direct and cross.
GRACE: You know, it`s interesting, Jim Kirkwood, if anyone takes on the whole "holier than thou" mantle in court, I mean, comparing MacNeill to the inmates -- he`s just as bad as they are. He`s got a record, too.
KIRKWOOD: Well, yes, he`s a convicted felon, and he knew these guys in prison. And it`s like you said, they all had the same story, different parts of his incarceration.
I mean, I`m looking at this, Nancy, and I don`t think anybody who`s looking at this case doubts MacNeill is guilty. The problem is, will the jury take that step? Do they have enough evidence to let them say guilty on a verdict?
GRACE: Out to the lines. Cathy in Colorado. Hi, Cathy. What`s your question, dear. I think I`ve got Cathy. Cathy, are you there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon me. Yes, ma`am. If MacNeill had done CPR properly, the first time, as he says, all that water would have come out then, right, not when first responders, you know, did it correctly later.
GRACE: Yes. Yes. Is that your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have one more, yes. Do prosecution witnesses, including inmates -- do they get lots of coaching on how rough, you know, cross-examination can be?
GRACE: Actually, Cathy, having prosecuted felony crimes for 10 years in inner-city Atlanta, there were times that I could tell the witness generally what I was going ask them, especially police officers and firefighters. And there`s really no time to go through everything with them about what`s going to happen on cross.
Everybody generally knows that they`re going to get grilled on cross- examination. But no, I don`t think that they have enough time to prepare them, nor do they know exactly what`s going to happen on cross-exam.
Everybody, right now, I want to take you inside that Provo courtroom. On the stand right now, inmate number five. This is Jason Poirier. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He seemed like he was pretty privileged, especially as a trusty. He had different shoes on and stuff like that. And I just kind of cracked a joke to him saying, you know, Can I get a pair of those shoes? And...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when you say different shoes on, are there jail-issued standard shoes that everybody gets?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, these were, like...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, let me ask you generally-...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the jail population -- do they all get...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They all get standard shoes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And tell me about Martin`s shoes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were specially made, I guess.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, different from...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Scholls or something or...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were they different from everybody else`s?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So you`re asking, How do I get a pair of those, kind of as a joke?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said, No, you can`t. And I said, Well, how do you get away with that? And he`s, like, I can get away with a lot of things.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What else did he say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he goes, For instance, like, I`m getting away with my murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do you recall -- OK. Did he say anything else about that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About his wife?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. He was getting away with the murder of his wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he say he murdered his wife?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t say it like that, but he said, I`m getting away with murdering my wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he say whether he actually was cheating on her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes. He told me about his girlfriend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think her name was Gypsy. She was also incarcerated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He seemed like he was pretty privileged. I said, Well, how do you -- how do you get away with that? And he`s, like, I can get away with a lot of things. And he goes, For instance, like, I`m getting away with my murder. And I immediately told the guards, I need to switch sections.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why was that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t want to be around him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing on the stand Sidney -- excuse me, Jason Poirier.
Now, out to you, Matt Zarrell. It seems to me, with each passing month that MacNeill is getting bolder in the statements that he is making to inmates. If you look back over the cellmates that have testified, he`s getting more and more bold and he is alluding to and admitting to more and more and more. In fact, with this guy, he was pretty bold. He was very, very cold about what had happened to his wife. Explain.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, we heard from inmates the day before. And these were federal inmates from a couple years before this. And MacNeill said, you know, They don`t have evidence -- they don`t have any evidence to prove I did it.
Now we`re in December of 2012. Now it`s gone a long time since Michele`s death, and maybe he thinks he`s going to get away with it because now he`s admitting that he killed Michele.
GRACE: OK, on the stand, the same witness. Let`s listen. In the courtroom, Liz, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall telling investigators earlier when you were interviewed about this that he said, Well, for instance, I killed my wife, that should say a lot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that substantially similar to what you`re saying today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did -- what happened next in that conversation?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I kind of just sat back and kind of chuckled, thinking that it was -- he was lying...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and went back to my cell, got the clothes from him and went back to my cell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did you ever talk to Martin about his wife again?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember when it was in relation to the first conversation?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just -- I think it was the next day or a few days later.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Relatively close?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. It was back to back. I was in my cell thinking about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. How did that conversation start?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I approached him when he was in the cleaning room, cleaning the bucket, the mop bucket. And I just come up to him and say, Hey, man, I apologize about your wife. And he goes, Oh, no, I`m glad the bitch dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Will you speak up when you answer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. He said, I`m glad the bitch is dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Off the top, we are live in Provo, bringing you the latest in the facelift murder trial. A string of witnesses that did time at one time or another with doctor/lawyer, Sunday school teacher in the Mormon tabernacle, all saying he said the same thing, The bitch is dead. Whoa!
All right, Caryn Stark, you`re the shrink. I want you to weigh in. Even if you dislike someone, hasn`t anybody ever heard not to speak ill of the dead? I mean, this guy is so crass and cold about his wife. She`s the mother of his eight children!
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: What an example, Nancy, of somebody who has absolutely no conscience, that even though she`s dead, he has to be able to brag about what he did and speak pejoratively about her and not think twice about it. He can`t even pretend remorse, and that really tells you what kind of person he is. Only someone capable of murder can do that.
GRACE: To Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner and forensic pathologist, also toxicologist, joining me tonight out of Madison Heights. Dr. Morrone, so good to have you on. Dr. Morrone, you have dealt with...
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST/TOXICOLOGIST: Thank you.
GRACE: ... let me just estimate, thousands of autopsies. How often is it that two people in one family end up dead, drowned in the bathtub, with the same person hovering over their dead body?
MORRONE: It`s a statistical improbability beyond drug addiction, stroke or heart attack that begs for criminal contributions beyond recollection. It`s just impossible.
GRACE: The sad part about it, Jean, to add insult to injury -- Jean Casarez joining me live at the courthouse in Provo -- is this jury -- they`re never going to know about his dead brother he helped out in the bathtub, according to MacNeill`s mistress. That was banned by the judge.
CASAREZ: Which is sort of amazing because it`s so strikingly similar, but this judge is really erring on the side of caution for appellate purposes, and they will not know it.
But looking at this -- I think the headline today, Nancy, is Jason Poirier was in the Utah County jail right behind me, down a couple blocks. All the other inmates, all the way in Texas. How could they get their stories to align?
GRACE: Absolutely. And that`s what the prosecution is going to be arguing. And I guess they saved the best for last. I don`t know if thee`s a better way to put it, Jean Casarez. But is it true the mistress, Gypsy Willis, is coming back on the stand for round two, a rematch with the state?
CASAREZ: She was here today because they thought that she was going to take the stand. She`s with her lawyer. And finally, when that cross- examination just didn`t end with inmate one, she and her attorney left. We expect them tomorrow morning.
GRACE: OK. Well, I guess we can look forward to that.
Everybody, when we come back, Amber Alert in place tonight for a 2- week-old baby boy snatched from his own home.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to police, a 2-week-old child had been abducted by his father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to recover the child safely. We don`t want any harm to him or the child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It started as a late afternoon argument between the infant`s mother and father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He indicated to her that if the police were involved, he would cause harm to himself and the child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The argument ended with the dad driving off with his son, but not before warning that he would kill himself and the child if police are notified.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to get the child back into the custody, of his mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A few possible sightings have been called in, but the father and child remain on the run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, missing, a 2-week-old baby boy had been taken from his own home. All you moms out there know a 2-week-old child is defenseless. They have got to be cared for very, very carefully.
Straight out to Henry K. Lee, reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle. Henry, I understand the father is threatening to kill not only himself, but the 2-week-old baby boy as well if police are called in?
HENRY K. LEE, SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE: That`s right, Nancy. He texted his girlfriend, the mother of his child, this 2-week-old child, that if you contact the cops, I`m going to harm myself or our baby, who is just 2 weeks old, Nancy.
GRACE: Out to Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. This is your specialty, Marc. What do we do?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, they have done a lot. They have issued the Amber Alert. They believe, based on cell phone pings and eyewitness accounts, that he`s in the San Diego area. People in that area particularly have to be aware and cognizant of what`s going on. If they see this character, they need to contact the authorities so they can bring resolution.
GRACE: OK, Liz, I want you to show the picture of the baby and I want you to show the picture of the father that`s threatening to kill the baby and himself. If we have got pictures of the father. People are not going to be able to distinguish this baby from another baby. This guy, right there, Mesut Guler, he`s the one you need to be looking for. To Justin Freiman on the story, Justin, do we know what kind of vehicle he`s in? Where did we last see him? Where do you think he is? Have there been any sightings?
FREIMAN: Nancy, we believe he`s in a tan 2004 GMC Envoy with California plates. Those plates and a description of that car has been put up on all the billboards around the area. He was last seen in Sunnyvail, California, where he and his live-in girlfriend live with the child.
GRACE: Don`t take it down. You did. Put it back up, please. 2004 tan GMC Envoy. A large American eagle on the rear window. That`s what`s going to to set this SUV apart from every other one you see on the interstate. Here is the tag, 6, h, happy, i-l 892. That`s the California tag license, everyone. This father, threatening to kill himself and the baby. I want to go back to you, Henry Lee. What happened? How did all this come about?
LEE: Well, this couple had been arguing for a long time, Nancy, over his desire to move back to New York. He wants to go out of state, she does not. The two have been arguing over this issue to the point they had one last argument yesterday. He took the child, texted her to say that he was purportedly going to do errands, and then told her, you know what, I have taken our baby Henry. And if you do anything about it, if you call the cops, I`m going to harm him and our child. This baby is no more than 2 weeks old. Nancy, as you know, he needs support of his mom. He needs milk. We have no idea what his condition is, and he needs all the support he can get. He`s just so young and to be out in an Envoy for an eight-hour drive from San Diego to the Bay Area, it`s harrowing enough, Nancy.
GRACE: Joining me right now is a special guest, Paul Penzone, out of Phoenix, former sergeant with the Phoenix PD and child advocate. Paul, thank you for being with us. Paul, there`s been several sightings. I don`t know if they are correct or not. They seem credible. Weigh in, Paul. What do we do?
PAUL PENZONE, FORMER PHOENIX PD SERGEANT: Got to keep the pressure on. Billboards are extremely effective. It`s a great tactic. It has to be top of mind for the community because every tip matters until you disprove it. My biggest concern is he`s a young man, he`s painted himself into a corner, he`s made some scary, dangerous statements. So we have to put the pressure on and recover this baby safely.
GRACE: Everybody, the tip line, 408-730-7120. That`s the Sunnyvail police department. 408-730-7120. On the lookout for a tan, 2004 GMC Envoy. California license plate. 6HIL892. Large American eagle on the rear window.
Unleash the lawyers. With me Shireen Hormozdi and Peter Odom, defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Peter, he`s in a whole heap of trouble. The best thing this guy could do right now is turn himself in.
ODOM: Absolutely. And if he called me and asked for legal advice, I would say we will sort it all out later, you get yourself to the nearest hospital or police station and turn yourself in right now, please, I`m begging you.
GRACE: Or, or, Shireen, I don`t advocate this, but if he`s worried about what`s going to happen to him, he could call the public defenders office, call anybody, and they can arrange a surrender. Or maybe even work a deal. All that matters right now is the baby.
HORMOZDI: Absolutely, but absent a court order to the contrary, this father has rights. And until those texts are authenticated, we can`t conclusively say they are from him.
GRACE: You know what, Shireen? Once you threaten to kill your child, you lose those rights. To you, Henry Lee, what is the living situation? I mean, is this the legal father of the child?
LEE: Yes. These are the legal parents, however, they are not married. There`s been questions about what are his legal rights. This baby is, again, all of two weeks old, born in late October. This gentleman, if you want to call him that, his Facebook page is full of purportedly happy pictures of father and son. But keep in mind, these are brand-new parents. He`s just 22 years old. There`s a lot to sort out here, and he`s not done himself any favors to be traipsing around the state with his boy.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, get a load of this. The man is threatening to kill the baby, and we have defense attorneys arguing that he hasn`t violated his legal rights by taking the baby out of the home. Am I the crazy one here?
KLAAS: Well, no, Nancy. We all know defense attorneys live in an alternate universe. But the reality is, is that this kind of scenario plays itself out perhaps hundreds of thousands of times a year. The vast majority of kidnapping cases in the United States are non-custodial parents taking children from custodial parents to use as a weapon in some sort of a custody battle.
GRACE: You are right. But how often do they threaten to kill the child? Marc?
KLAAS: They don`t threaten to kill the child very often. In fact, the children are never really considered endangered unless a statement is made such as the statement made by this young man.
GRACE: Everyone, please, take a look at these pictures. If you don`t mind showing them one more time, Liz. Mesut Guler and his child, Henry, are gone. Mesut is threatening to kill the 2-week-old baby boy. You can make a difference.
Everyone, on another note, last night we highlighted here, on our program, the case of a missing little girl, teen Abby from New Hampshire. I have been extremely concerned about Abby. The case has gotten very, very little media attention.
After last night`s program where we showed her picture repeatedly and flashed the 800 number many, many times, the local press in Abby`s hometown has brought to our attention we stated Abby was a cheerleader, and they are very upset about this. Actually, she ran track.
Now, what this has to do with finding the missing girl, I`m not sure. But tonight, I`d like to get us all back in the middle of the road here and keep our hearts and minds on what is important. There are parents suffering tonight, and we could save this child`s life. We need to focus on finding Abby. Once again, tip line, as I mentioned last night, 1-800- call-fbi. Everyone, please, take a look at Abby.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search is on for a 2-week-old child allegedly abducted by his own father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anything is possible. We immediately notified the border patrol of the license plate, the vehicle description and his description. The mother reported to us that they had been involved in an ongoing dispute about the father`s desire to move out of state.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That argument ended with the dad driving off with his son, but not before warning that he would kill himself and the child if police are notified.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We received a report of a child abduction which had occurred in the 900 block (inaudible). Officers responded and determined that the father of the 2-week-old child had taken the child and abducted with it. The mother reported to us that they had been involved in an ongoing dispute about the father`s desire to move out of state. About 4:30 in the afternoon, he took the child to run some errands and left with the child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everyone, this child is in danger. The father is threatening to kill not only himself but the baby boy as well. We are taking your calls. Out to Carol. Hi, Carol, what is your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. First, I admire your moxy and passion to help the victims of crimes, so I appreciate that. Thank you. My question is, do we know anything about the father, like his background? Was he in trouble with the law at all and does he have any mental issues?
GRACE: Good question. Do I have Clark Goldband with me, Liz? Is he hooked up yet? Clark, what do we know?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, it is certainly a scary situation. This guy could be anywhere. And authorities want you to take a look at his picture so they can capture him and save this little infant.
GRACE: Go ahead, Justin.
FREIMAN: We know the father had this argument and ran off with the 2- week-old child. This child can`t just take care of himself. Has been in a car, possibly for 8 hours or more. Police are hot on the hunt for him. They need to find the child as soon as possible.
GRACE: Justin, what I don`t understand is why it`s to the point where he`s saying he`s going to kill himself and the baby. I don`t understand why he`s at that point over simply -- he wants to move to New York and the mom wants to stay in California.
FREIMAN: Well, apparently, according to police, this has been an ongoing argument between the two, and I guess it just really got heated yesterday with him leaving with the child on his own.
GRACE: Out to Paul Penzone, former sergeant, Phoenix PD, child advocate. Do you believe he`s still in the SUV? I think he is.
PENZONE: I agree with you. I don`t think he has the resources available. It`s not as easy as everyone would think to just switch vehicles. A real important message to get out there-- oftentimes people under duress feel like they have no other options. There are safe havens he can take that child to. The law enforcement agency there can deal with him at the appropriate time, but he needs to understand that he has options that are better than the ones he`s chosen.
GRACE: This could very well end up badly. We need your help finding him and his child. To Caryn Stark, I guess what I`m trying to verbalize, I think you can do it better than me, Caryn, when you have a child, to threaten to kill the child if you don`t get your way, when you do that, you have crossed over so many reasonable thresholds. And I think his threat must be taken seriously. For you to say that, that you are going to kill your child, you have gone past the realm of what is reasonable.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Beyond a doubt, Nancy. Something really has to be done. They need to pay attention. This is a volatile situation. Very dangerous. Very scary. This is not your average dad. People don`t make those kind of threats. So, if he wants to be okay, he should turn himself in and get this over with. If not, they need to find him.
GRACE: Peter Odom, I have spoken to so many family lawyers, that means divorce and child custody, that`s what it means, putting perfume on the pig. They say they would rather try a murder case in court than handle a domestic case, a volatile domestic case. And this is why. When you start talking about your children and your family, people will totally take a shot at you.
ODOM: Nancy, it brings out the absolute worst in people. The criminal courtroom is a very civilized place compared to the family courtroom, the marital courtroom. They are difficult places.
GRACE: What I`m hoping, and I`m certainly not a shrink, is this guy is out of his mind, that he`s going move and leave behind the mother and the baby and that he said this without meaning it, in the heat of the moment. But we have to take it like he means it. Because when people make threats, like they are going to kill their children, it becomes a distinct possibility.
Everyone, the tip line, 408-730-7120.
When we come back, a young teen boy and his mother argue. Mommy takes away the cell phone as discipline. Difficult teen, right? Wrong. When she gets home from work, her son ambushes mommy with a frying pan.
Just in tonight, the stunning 911 call.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Mommy disciplines her young teen boy by taking his cell phone away. Right? Wrong! When she gets home, he`s waiting in the kitchen to ambush and kill her. Tonight, what do we learn from the 911 call we just obtained? Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911 emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I just walked into my house and my son assaulted me with a frying pan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s your address?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About ten minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he still there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I finally got him to get up off me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was ten minutes ago and you`re not with him now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I just left like two minutes ago.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So it was two minutes ago?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two minutes ago that I left. Ten minutes ago since he assaulted my. I don`t know where my wife it. He keeps saying that she`s not home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you injured?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are? You need paramedics?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know. I have a huge lump on my face. I don`t know the extent of it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. So as far as you know, your son is still at the house?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And where are you at?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m driving --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Dave Mack, morning talk show host with WAAX, he drags mommy`s dead, lifeless body and hides it in the backyard toolshed, and the father manages to save his own life. Of course he needs an ambulance. He just got beaned in the head with a frying pan. Is this child going to be treated as a juvenile and get a couple of months in juvie jail and walk free?
DAVE MACK, WAAX TALK SHOW HOST: No, ma`am, he will be treated as an adult. When you see the pictures of how big he is, the neighbors didn`t even think he was a kid. They all thought he was a college-age kid or older. He`s huge.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Her teen son waits for mommy to get home after she disciplines him by taking away his cell phone. He beats her dead in the kitchen with a frying pan.
Unleash the lawyers. Shireen Hormozdi, Peter Odom. All right, out to you, Shireen, what`s your defense?
HORMOZDI: They`re calling this kid the teen hulk, but just because he`s large, and his size -- he shouldn`t be automatically deemed guilty. He should be treated as a juvenile, and I would immediately call for a forensic interview in this case to see if he was a victim of abuse. This killing does not scream strategy. It screams self-defense, victim of abuse.
GRACE: OK. Shireen, what screams self-defense to you? He`s waiting in the kitchen for his mother. He has a lookout posted at the mailbox out front, and he waits for his mother to come in, whereupon he beats her dead with a frying pan. Now, where is the self-defense there?
HORMOZDI: He could have been a victim of years of abuse. And after years of abuse, he could have just retaliated that moment to save himself and stop the abuse.
GRACE: That`s not really self-defense. That is where you -- more like a battered woman defense. That`s not a true self-defense. Who do you think he`s defending himself against?
HORMOZDI: His parents. I would like to know what his history was with his parents.
GRACE: Now, Peter Odom, what about the fact that this self-defense happens immediately when his mom takes away the cell phone, then he defense himself?
ODOM: I would agree with Shireen at least in part. The first thing I would look at in this case is the kid`s mental state. Just because he`s big doesn`t mean that he`s mentally big. He`s 16. And frankly, I believe that there should be a presumption that he be treated as a juvenile.
But certainly --
GRACE: You have heard of designated felonies. Correct?
ODOM: I have. I understand--
GRACE: The seven deadlies, murder, rape, ag assault, aggravated assault, armed robbery--
ODOM: In Arizona there`s a presumption --
GRACE: -- child molestation and arson.
ODOM: And murder is one of them.
GRACE: So with those, you`re automatically up for a hearing to determine if you`re treated as an adult.
ODOM: The law is dead set against this kid, but I think it`s inhumane.
GRACE: Whose fault is that? He`s the one who beat his mom dead with a frying pan and then tried to kill his daddy as the icing on the cake.
ODOM: Well, that`s what a trial is about. A jury will determine that.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember American hero, Marine Lance Corporal Frederick Vazquez, 20, Melrose Park, Illinois. Combat Action Ribbon. National Defense Service Medal. Loved paintball, basketball and military video games. His parents Juan and Rubelia. Brother Juan Carlos. Frederick Vazquez, American hero.
Everyone, court is done for the day. Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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