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Nancy Grace
Martin MacNeill Murder Trial Verdict Watch
Aired November 08, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Martin MacNeill murdered his wife, Michele.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The evidence in this case, I submit to you, is overwhelming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Martin MacNeill, who is about 206 pounds, 6-foot- 2, could not get his wife out of the tub.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... return a verdict of not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about getting inside the tub and maybe straddling her, grabbing her from her shoulders, pulling her, maybe rolling her over, getting her onto the ground to where he can actually provide life-saving measures?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all three of the medical examiners have a duty to determine the manner of death, and none of them could conclude that this was a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give Michele the drugs, fix her up a bath, get her in the tub, hold her head down for a little while, and help her out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... -has the same significance of, I`m glad the bitch is dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN as a Provo jury decides the fate of doctor/lawyer/Mormon Sunday school teacher now charged in the death of his wife, Michele MacNeill, Michele found dead in the family`s bathroom tub, Michele not only his wife but the mother of his eight children.
We are live in Provo and taking your calls as we wait for the jury to hand down a verdict. The judge is telling us that he will give us X number of minutes` warning. We don`t know if that will hold up. It`s all going to depend on what`s happening in that jury room, what`s happening in that jury deliberations room as to how much notice we have when that verdict is going to be read.
All the parties are assembled at the courthouse. Everyone is waiting. That jury deliberations room is locked and sealed. Nobody can hear what`s going on in there.
Again, we are live in Provo and taking your calls. To Jean Casarez, standing by at the courthouse. Jean, tell me the latest.
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest is, this courthouse is normally locked and shut down on Friday night, but just as you said, court personnel are in there because the jury is deliberating. Four hours now they`ve been in there. Not a question. Not a note. They continue to deliberate after many hours of opening statements today -- closing arguments.
GRACE: You know, the arguments were incredible. I thought they were very, very good, and they were just as all the legal eagles out there had predicted. The state hammered down all of the circumstantial evidence that really left you with no reasonable doubt whatsoever. And the defense fired back with the medical examiners.
In an interesting move -- unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Greg Skordas, former prosecutor, in Salt Lake City now, defense attorney, Heather Hanson (ph), defense attorney, New York, Danny Cevallos, defense attorney in Philadelphia.
You know, I thought it was very interesting, Greg Skordas, that the state argued an argument that I used many, many times with juries, and that is, the defense, if you would have -- if you would believe the defense, you must then disbelieve everybody else. The defense would have you believe that everybody`s lying except Martin MacNeill.
That was one of the things the state argued to the jury, Greg.
GREG SKORDAS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And that`s what they kind of had to argue because they put on 35 witnesses, 35 to 4. And of course, Martin MacNeill didn`t even testify. So the state put on a very, very long and circumstantial case, and had to say, Look, if you`re going to acquit this man, you have to disbelief all 35 of our witnesses.
GRACE: To you, Heather Hanson. Of course, Greg Skordas pointing out that the defendant did not take the stand, but that cannot be commented on by the state in their closing arguments. They can`t say, Hey, what`s he afraid of? Why can`t he answer our questions? Why won`t he subject himself to cross-examination?
I guess they took a page out of Jodi Arias`s book and saw that taking the stand is a big no-no.
HEATHER HANSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Taking the stand would have been a nightmare for Dr. MacNeill, and in fact, may have put the nail in his coffin. It was very smart on the defense`s part not to put him on, to rely on the medical evidence, to rely on the scientific evidence and to try to discount all of the circumstantial evidence.
GRACE: You know, Danny Cevallos, in the Constitution, the state cannot comment on the defendant`s decision to remain silent. That is a guaranteed right under the 5th Amendment, and the state cannot comment on it whatsoever.
Now, what the state could have commented on is, if the defense had brought up other witnesses that could prove his innocence -- they brought them up but didn`t bring them on -- they could comment on that, but they can never say to the jury, Hey, have you ever wondered, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, why this guy won`t get up and tell you his version of the story? Why is that, do you think, members of the jury? Because he can`t take cross-exam. He would crack like a potato chip on cross-exam.
They`re not allowed to point that out to the jury.
DANNY CEVALLOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely not. And there`s -- this is very important in a case like this, where it was highly unlikely the doctor would have testified. There was very little he could have added. And in many ways, we differ on what the prosecution has or has not proven...
GRACE: Whoa! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Cevallos, did I just hear you...
CEVALLOS: ... the defense did a good job with...
GRACE: ... say there`s very little...
CEVALLOS: ... their four witnesses.
GRACE: ... that the defendant could have added? Did you just say that?
CEVALLOS: Absolutely. There`s very little that he could have added...
GRACE: Really?
-- and you know as well as I do, you balance out...
GRACE: I would like to cross-examine him myself.
CEVALLOS: ... the risks against the potential reward...
GRACE: I think there`s a lot he could add.
CEVALLOS: Well, you would have liked to have heard from him, but...
GRACE: I think there`s a lot...
CEVALLOS: ... that`s not the way the Constitution works, Nancy.
GRACE: ... he could add. He could explain to me...
CEVALLOS: Well, that`s not a constitutionally...
GRACE: ... how he managed...
CEVALLOS: ... relevant question.
GRACE: How he managed, Matt Zarrell, the very first time he was left alone with Michele, his wife -- this is when Alexis, his daughter, was still in the home -- there were two times she OD`d. One, he insisted that Alexis, the medical student daughter, go to bed so he could relieve her, taking care of his wife. Lo and behold, within a couple hours of Alexis going to sleep, Mommy is OD`d. All right, then the second time, Alexis goes back to medical school. The very next morning, Mommy`s dead, Matt.
I think I`ve got Matt Zarrell somewhere, but I`m going to Jean Casarez on that until we get Matt`s satellite up. Jean, what about it? Two times that he`s alone with Michele, within hours, she`s overdosed.
CASAREZ: Let me add to that what the prosecutor said today. MacNeill got those four prescriptions. MacNeill admitted to Alexis, according to prosecutors, that he had overdosed her when she came home from the hospital with those medications. When Alexis took over, she didn`t give Ambien. She didn`t give Valium, according to prosecutors. But the night she died - - the morning she died, those drugs again were found in her system.
GRACE: What about it, Matt Zarrell? I think I`ve got you back now. Are you there, Matt?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy. What they`re saying is that April 4th is very significant because that was the first chance MacNeill had to be alone with Michele following the surgery, where he was in control of the drugs. The next time he had a chance was when Alexis left on April 11th. She`s dead by 11:30. She has almost the same cocktail of drugs that he administered to her on April 4th.
GRACE: Everybody, we are on a verdict watch here at HLN and we are bringing you the latest out of that Provo courtroom.
Jean, what`s the plan? How are we going to find out that a verdict has been reached? What do they have, a buzzer in there? How does this work?
CASAREZ: Well, we are out here. The jurors are in there. At this point, we can`t be in the courthouse. Only the jurors are there. We`re going to get word that there is a verdict. When we get word, they say they`re allowing 45 minutes until families can get here because all of Michele`s family wants to be in that courtroom when that verdict is read.
GRACE: Everybody, we are waiting for the verdict to be handed down.
Let`s go to the lines. Lisa, Wisconsin. Hi, Lisa. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, thank you for taking my call. I was watching the testimony today on HLN, and when Gypsy approached and they had mentioned her background, Dr. MacNeill had a tear in his left eye. He removed his glasses and he wiped it.
GRACE: Oh, please!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hadn`t noticed him cry or shed a tear when his wife`s death was mentioned. Did anybody else catch that?
GRACE: Whoa! Lisa, Wisconsin -- OK, when was this you noticed him crying?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a tear. It was one tear. And I want to say it was in the left eye. He removed his glasses, and he had wiped it with a pinky, I want to say his right hand.
GRACE: All right. Out to you, Jean Casarez. You were in court. You saw the whole thing. Why is he crying over Gypsy? OK, she`s already moved on to another relationship, according to her. Well, that`s probably a lie because she said it. Her lips were moving, it had to be a lie. But he`s crying over her?
CASAREZ: Here`s what I saw. And I`m not sure the camera caught this, but prosecutors put a big poster-sized picture of Gypsy Willis up right before the jury, and it stayed up there, Nancy, for almost the entire closing argument of the prosecution. And I understand that because it`s motive, but I wanted to see a picture of Michele.
GRACE: You know, another issue -- Michael Christian joining me, investigative reporter. He and I have covered a lot of verdicts together. Michael, this whole thing about reasonable doubt -- here`s the deal. I argued this to many, many juries as a prosecutor. Reasonable doubt is the conclusion you come to, to a moral and reasonable certainty. I`m quoting the law, a moral and reasonable certainty, Michael -- moral, heart, reasonable, head.
Translation, what you believe in your head and your heart, because I`ve heard people argue, Michael Christian, I know he did it. I know he did it, but I don`t know if the state has proved it beyond a reasonable doubt. Well, that`s what a reasonable doubt is, Michael, if you believe it, if the state has convinced you that you that believe it, that you know in your heart and your mind that he did it, then it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That`s my argument.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: You know, Nancy, I`ve been a juror. I`ve been a juror three times. And I can tell you from the perspective of being in that jury room, a lot of jurors have problems with the standard of reasonable doubt. They`re just not sure exactly what it means.
Now, you`ve just explained it very well. Some jury instructions explain it very well. Some jury instructions leave it somewhat nebulous. It`s a tough call for jurors because you can get, you know, a majority of jurors back there who think that, you know, it`s been proven beyond reasonable doubt. But if you have one or two who are holding out because they`re just not sure what reasonable doubt is, that`s a big problem for the prosecution.
GRACE: All right, Jim Kirkwood, tell me, what do we know about this jury?
JIM KIRKWOOD, KTKK: Well, what worries me, and I hate to be sexist, but there are...
GRACE: Uh-oh! Uh-oh!
KIRKWOOD: ... a majority of women on...
GRACE: When I hear a man say, Ooh, I hate to be sexist, that means you`re about to be sexist. So when you hear yourself saying that, just stop right there, OK?
KIRKWOOD: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: But just our curiosity, what were you going to say?
(LAUGHTER)
KIRKWOOD: I`m worried that the female members might be a little squishy on this because sending a guy away for life is a big deal. But this is Utah County, Nancy, and they`re pretty conservative and tough here. If I were betting, I`d put some money on guilty. But it`s a flip of the coin.
GRACE: That`s so funny. You`re worried about the women. I`m worried about the men. I`m worried about the men...
KIRKWOOD: Ah, OK.
GRACE: ... that may condone or think it`s OK to have an affair on your wife with eight children. And hey, nobody`s on trial for having sex, all right? That`s not what this is about. And frankly, I don`t care. I`m not the church lady. I don`t care who is -- who, cats and dogs sleeping together, don`t care. All I care about is the murder.
So you`re worried about the women. I`m worried about the men. Jean Casarez, what do you make of this jury?
CASAREZ: I`m really glad you brought that up because the men have been the dominant ones on this jury. And during the defense closing argument today -- and so many people saw this -- a male juror, who is now deliberating, in the back row was listening forward, and everything the defense attorney said, he agreed with and shook his head, Yes, yes. And finally, when the defense attorney said, You have to find him not guilty, he agreed and shook his head yes.
GRACE: Yes. I don`t like that, either.
Everybody, we are on a verdict watch here at HLN. It has taken years to bring this case to a jury, but Michele MacNeill`s children never gave up. They fought until the prosecution brought this case.
And we are not letting it go until that jury hands down a verdict. We are live at the Provo courthouse. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Certainly no evidence that she`d been forcefully drowned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defendant may as well have said, I murdered Michele.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) suggest that -- that why didn`t he just get in the tub, like this, and lift her out...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I`ve got CPR in progress!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He twice says he`s in the process of administering CPR.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know how to do CPR?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m doing it!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) a 182-pound woman in the tub, how are you going to be able to get in the tub without standing on her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do the right thing and convict Martin MacNeill of murder and obstructing justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live at the Provo courthouse, bringing you the latest. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN, waiting for a Provo jury to hand down a verdict in the case against Dr. Martin MacNeill, a lawyer, a doctor, husband father, Mormon Sunday school teacher. He is charged in the death of his wife, Michele, the mother of his eight children.
Their 6-year-old little girl, Ada, comes home with Daddy. He sends her in first and finds her mother dead in the family bathtub, staring up at the ceiling.
Right now, justice is in the hands of a Provo jury. Let`s take a listen to what the jury heard, the last thing they heard before they began deliberations. Into the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant may well have -- may as well have said in his application, I murdered Michele.
The document speaks for itself, ladies and gentlemen. It`s not affected by bias. It`s not affected by motive. It is what it is. And it`s the defendant`s doing.
And this application, ladies and gentlemen, has the same significance as, I`m glad the bitch is dead. That is what this application screams, I am glad the bitch is dead.
He twice says he`s in the process of administering CPR. The defendant was, in fact, not doing CPR. He couldn`t do CPR because she was sitting up in the tub. He couldn`t do the chest compressions. He couldn`t give her effective breaths, clear the airway to make it effective, but he tells dispatch he`s performing CPR.
He couldn`t lift her out of the tub, ladies and gentlemen. Martin MacNeill, who is about 206 pounds, 6-foot-2, could not get his wife out of the tub. You heard from an expert yesterday, an expert that talks about occupational safety hazards, that standing about right here, it wouldn`t be reasonable for him to have taken her out of the tub.
Ladies and gentlemen, what about getting inside the tub and maybe straddling her, grabbing her from her shoulders, pulling her, maybe rolling her over, getting her onto the ground to where he can actually provide life-saving measures? What about grabbing her feet and maybe pulling her, doing something, doing everything you could to try and save your wife`s life?
But he couldn`t do anything because he had a hurt toe. Or maybe he had cancer. He`d been using that cane off and on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... evidence coming from the defendant`s own words that he killed his wife. There is more than enough evidence to convict the defendant here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) certify the cause of death as being natural. That`s a real possibility of innocence. That`s reasonable doubt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beyond a reasonable doubt, he`s guilty of murder and obstruction of justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live at the Provo courthouse. Straight to Jean Casarez. Jean, who is in the courtroom waiting on the verdict, the family? Where are they?
CASAREZ: Court personnel. The families are at various locations. They are not in the courthouse, attorneys not in the courthouse. Deliberating jury in the courthouse, court personnel, the bailiff there. Once there is a verdict, there will be notice. Everyone will be scrambling to get to the courthouse to be let in to hear the reading of it.
GRACE: Well, aren`t the prosecutors in the courthouse? Isn`t the district attorney located in the courthouse?
CASAREZ: That`s true. They may be allowed, but it is a closed courthouse at this point. It is not -- people are not being allowed in. Their office is in there. They might be there, defense attorneys not in there.
GRACE: So what do they do, send out for food for the jury? Because they`re obviously deliberating over hours.
CASAREZ: Yes, food is being brought in for the jury. The jury is in control. Whenever they want to stop for the evening, they can stop. But this is a jury that likes to keep going because as this trial went on for the last few weeks, the judge would ask, Does anybody want a break, or lunch? And jurors would just go, Keep going, keep going. So this is a jury that goes the long stretch.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Greg Skordas, former Salt Lake district attorney. He knows the prosecution and the defense teams. What do you think? Do you think they`ll stay until they get a verdict tonight? I mean, I`ve had juries come out with a verdict after midnight.
SKORDAS: And I think what the judge will do at some point, Nancy, is bring the jurors back in and say, How close are you? And if they say, We`re getting close, he`ll say, let`s keep it going. Let`s keep it going until midnight or 1:00 o`clock. But if they say, We need some time, we`re not very close, he may very well tell them to come back -- and of course, tomorrow`s Saturday and Monday`s a holiday. He may tell them to come back Tuesday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why the spikes in medications? Why did Martin ask for more medications? Why is Michele dead a few days after she starts confronting him about his relationship with Gypsy?
And then why has Gypsy so suddenly moved in? Why is Gypsy talking about a sudden uptick in the seriousness of the relationship at right around exactly the same time that he`s looking for a plastic surgeon? Why is he looking for a home nearby? Why is he paying for everything for her? This is swapping out Michele for Gypsy on Martin`s terms, and that means Michele`s got to die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are on a verdict watch here at HLN, waiting for a Provo jury to hand down a true verdict in the case of the state versus Dr. Martin MacNeill, now on trial in the murder of his wife, Michele, the mother of their eight children.
You know, out to you, Matt Zarrell. When the state argued about the uptick in the sex relationship between MacNeill and his mistress, Gypsy Willis, all coincidentally at the time other -- other things were swirling, other acts were happening -- explain to me the significance of that argument, Matt Zarrell.
ZARRELL: Yes. What the prosecution was saying is that Michele had confronted MacNeill about the affair shortly before MacNeill started scheduling the surgery and started to get -- the relationship with Gypsy went further.
What the prosecution said is that MacNeill had to make a choice, Gypsy or his wife, and the only way this could work out was if Michele was dead. So that`s what he decided to do.
GRACE: With me, a special guest joining me from the Provo courthouse, Jill Harper-Smith. This is Michele MacNeill`s niece. And of course, she was in court today for closing arguments. Jill, thank you for being with us.
JILL HARPER-SMITH, VICTIM`S NIECE: You`re welcome. Thanks for having me again.
GRACE: Jill, what did you make of the defense`s argument that the children, Michele`s children, are all lying on their father, that their hatred of him is somehow enough to make all of them band together to frame him for murder?
HARPER-SMITH: Well, in my opinion, if I`d already lost one parent, I wouldn`t want to lose another one. I mean, I`d be mad and maybe wouldn`t talk to them for having an affair, but I wouldn`t conjure up some scheme that would take up my life for six years just to bury my dad for having an affair. That`s ridiculous.
GRACE: Well, that`s the way I took it, but according to Jean Casarez, she said that there was a guy on the front row just biting into the defense hook, line and sinker, nodding yes at every single thing they said. What were your observations in the courtroom, Jill?
HARPER-SMITH: I did notice that guy. I know exactly who Jean is talking about. You know, I noticed different people taking notes and this and that, and people at the end of the day are going to buy into whatever they want to. I mean, that`s the reason this all goes on in the first place. Everyone on a jury is entitled to their own opinion, and we`ll have to see how it all pans out in the end.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Nancy in Pennsylvania. Hi, Nancy. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just wondered, do you remember the one picture they put up of him with his wife, Michele, and he`s in, like, a dark suit. He is holding onto her in such a tight, controlling manner. Now, I`m not a body language expert, but I think he always has to be in control. I wondered what you thought about that.
And the other thing is, I definitely think he`s guilty, but if they find that he`s not guilty, Gypsy better make sure that they have no bathtubs in the house because he may some day want to trade her in for a younger model.
GRACE: Nancy in Pennsylvania, she better switch to showers, I think would be a wise move for Gypsy Willis.
Let`s go to body language expert and jury consultant Susan Constantine, joining me out of Orlando. What about that?
SUSAN CONSTANTINE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, you know, I just looked at that picture there, and what I would want to see -- because I analyze a lot of these, especially with celebrities. The magazines will call me to analyze, you know, what`s really going on. But I didn`t see that he was really controlling her.
I also saw their heads kind of tilting towards one another. So they look like they are a couple. I did not see that she was being forced into his proximity (ph), that he was trying to control -- he`s actually leaning into her. They both have a very wonderful smile. They seem like they`re really enjoying each other. And at that moment...
GRACE: I think this is the shot she`s talking about.
CONSTANTINE: ... they`re a couple.
GRACE: Justin, could you put that last shot up one more time? In this last shot that we showed, it looks more of what Nancy in Pennsylvania is describing than the others. They don`t look too happy right there. That doesn`t look like leaning in, all in love the way the others look. She...
CONSTANTINE: Oh, yes, that`s a different photo there.
GRACE: Yes.
CONSTANTINE: That`s a different photo, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes. Yes.
CONSTANTINE: This one here, you`re looking at their face, they look like they`ve almost just even had an argument, because they have this very disdained look on their mouths. But she`s also ahead of him. He`s walking behind. That`s also significant, too. You know, of course, a lady walks forward, but there`s a lot of stress and strain that`s in both their faces. There was probably something going on right before they took that -- or right around that time they took the photo.
GRACE: Let`s go out to psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers," Bethany Marshall, joining me out of LA. Bethany, what do you make of it?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I wouldn`t put too much stock into this photo, and the reason for that is sociopaths often wear what we call the mask of sanity. They know they`re different from others. They know that they don`t attach, that they`re rageful, and in this case, potentially had a compulsion to kill.
So what they do is they learn to act normal like the rest of society. That`s very common practice for sociopaths. They`ll have children. They`ll get married. They`ll -- I mean, look at that bow tie -- go to parties, marry a woman who`s a beauty queen because that gives them the illusion of normalcy. But it is important to not be fooled.
The caller, Nancy, just brought up a very important point about control. What would have been his ultimate loss of control? The ultimate loss of control would be if he would have divorced her. She could have talked about him in the community. She could have taken half of their assets. She might have been free to date and have a sexual relationship with another man.
So this is also why he didn`t want to divorce her. And the other thing the other caller brought up about the tear in his eye in court when Gypsy got up on the stand -- the reason for that is that the reason potentially he killed his wife was because he wanted an idealized life with a new woman.
This is what we saw with Casey Anthony. Why did she -- why did she kill the little baby? Because she wanted an ideal life with a new sex object, a new lover. So the tear is that he wasn`t gratified in his compulsion to kill.
And one final thing, Nancy. I know this is a lot, but I think that what the prosecutor brought out is that this guy`s whole compulsion -- he had a compulsion to kill, and everything was organized around that compulsion -- the preoccupation with the facelift, going to the doctor`s, the medication, the tub, manipulating the first responders by offering them cash and screaming and crying about why his wife had to have a facelift.
He was preoccupied with medicine and plastic surgery. Why? Why? Because those were the instruments of death, and I think it was beautiful that the prosecution brought that forward.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I say almost perfect murder because along the way, he left a number of clues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rachel is -- she describes the stuff (INAUDIBLE) oh, it was a big, bloody mess (INAUDIBLE) just a little bit of blood, but she`s afraid of blood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... doing something, doing everything you could to try and save your wife`s life. But he couldn`t do anything because he had a hurt toe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution continues to cherry pick the facts that support their perspective of the evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The very first time Martin`s alone with Michele again, oh, wow, all four drugs back in her system. This time, she`s dead in the tub.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a number of clues that all point to him as a murderer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are in a verdict watch here at HLN as we wait for a Provo jury to bring home a verdict in the case of state versus Dr. Martin MacNeill. He is charged with murder in the death of his wife, Michele, found dead in the family tub.
We are taking your calls. Out to Wanda. Hi, Wanda. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. I`m also LDS, and my question is this. With Dr. MacNeill being a bishop and all the affairs and everything, were he and Gypsy by any chance excommunicated from the church?
GRACE: I don`t know. To Jim Kirkwood, talk show host, KTKK. Jim what do we know about any excommunication of MacNeill or Gypsy Willis? I don`t know that she was Mormon.
KIRKWOOD: Not for this, but apparently for his other activities, he was because as a former bishop -- the LDS church has a lay system, where regular people are called to be leaders, and that`s a very responsible job. So they would not like his activities at all. So he has been excommunicated for other activities earlier.
GRACE: So you can actually be thrown out of the Mormon church?
KIRKWOOD: Yes, and they do it all the time for this kind of thing. They don`t put up with nonsense.
GRACE: OK. So you can`t get forgiveness and become a Mormon again?
KIRKWOOD: Oh, yes. He could be re-baptized, come right on back in after a while.
GRACE: All right. OK. OK. There`s your answer, Wanda. He was excommunicated. I don`t know how Mormon Gypsy Willis ever was.
Everybody, right now, the jury is deliberating. Take a listen to the last words they heard before they began deliberations. Into the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to end by saying that there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt here. When you bring all this stuff together, there`s no reasonable explanation -- contemplating Gypsy, contemplating the lies that Martin`s told, contemplating the inconsistencies in his stories about the bathtub and Michele`s body -- why the spikes in medications? Why did Martin ask for more medications? Why did he move her in right off the bat? Why is he going through all this subterfuge?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, toxicologist, Morrone joining me out of Madison Heights. Dr. Morrone, thanks for being with us.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST/TOXICOLOGIST: You`re welcome.
GRACE: Doctor Morrone, isn`t it true that medical examiners have a whole fleet of investigators? There medical examiner`s investigators, just like there are police investigators and district attorney investigators and defense investigators, correct?
MORRONE: Yes, absolutely.
GRACE: And Dr. Morrone, the first medical examiner, who has passed on with breast cancer -- she did not have the facts that we now know when she first said the original cause of death was ruled natural. She didn`t know what we know today.
MORRONE: She didn`t. And the whole reason why this became the battle of the medical examiners, and why so many people were confused, is that we didn`t have the original medical examiner to come in and tell us what was important to her, what did she see? And we didn`t have her words. And in the absence of her, we had these other medical examiners. And of all of them, Dr. Joshua Perper was the simplest, straightforward and elemental. He just riveted the information here, and it was very important.
GRACE: Well, Morrone, I agree with you. Perper has the ability to take very complicated facts and boil them down so jurors and lawyers can understand it. And typically, when you don`t know the answer and it`s confusing, the most straightforward answer, the obvious answer is correct, and Perper gave the jury that on a silver platter.
We are in a verdict watch. First, "CNN Heroes."
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GRACE: Everybody, we are in a verdict watch at HLN, but I`m getting a report from WISN, a WISN reporter is saying that the missing 15-year-old girl, Kathryn Stalbaum, has been found alive out of state. We are waiting to confirm this, but the big news right now as we wait on the verdict in the Martin MacNeill trial is the 15-year-old girl we were all looking for may have been found alive and out of state.
We were all stunned earlier this afternoon to learn that her teal mountain bike, her Schwinn, had been found many, many miles off the route between her home and school. As you will recall, the 15-year-old girl had missed her school bus and texted a friend she was going to take her bike to school.
She never made it. That route was only two miles. The bike was found several hours ago, many miles away from that route between home and school.
But at the this hour, according to a reporter at WISN, Kathryn has been found alive. We`ll keep you updated as we hear the latest in the search for Kathryn Stalbaum.
Right now, we`re going back out to Provo and the verdict watch in the case of Martin MacNeill. Let`s take a listen to what went down in the courtroom just before the jury began their deliberations. Justin, let`s go in the courtroom.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the defendant doing on the morning of Michele`s death? Between 9:30 AM and about 11:00 AM, no one really knows about Martin MacNeill`s whereabouts.
And he had been at work that morning, certainly, and we know he was back at work by 11:00 o`clock because he places a phone call at 11:00 o`clock from his office and had placed a phone call about 9:30, about 9:26 or so, I believe, from his office. But there`s about an hour-and-a-half period of time where no one really knows where Martin is. And no one who took the stand and testified could talk about where Martin was.
You heard testimony from Detective Jeff Robinson (ph) that traveling at a speed of 50 miles per hour -- this would not count walk time, so you can add approximately a minute-and-a-half, two minutes. But he was three minutes and...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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GRACE: We are live at the Provo courthouse. Let`s bring in the reporters -- Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent, Jim Kirkwood, KTKK, Michael Christian and Matt Zarrell.
All right, what`s the holdup, Michael Christian?
CHRISTIAN: You know, these things always take longer than we think they`re going to, Nancy. They always do. It`s so frustrating. But you have to remember, we know so much more about this case than the jurors do.
If they`ve done what they`re supposed to do -- and there`s no reason to believe that they haven`t, they haven`t spoken about the case -- they get behind closed doors, this is their first chance...
GRACE: You know, Michael...
CHRISTIAN: ... to actually discuss the case.
GRACE: You and I have been covering cases since 1997, and you always say that.
CHRISTIAN: It`s always true!
GRACE: These things take time! It`s like we`re baking a cake.
CHRISTIAN: It`s always true.
GRACE: All right, let`s hear it, Jean Casarez. What`s taking is so long? To me, the evidence is so clear.
CASAREZ: Well, I`m surprised there hasn`t been a question. I mean, normally, there`s just some type of a question. So it tells me that they are working towards something in that room as they continue to go through all hours of the night here in Provo.
GRACE: OK, Jim Kirkwood, what about it? What`s the holdup?
KIRKWOOD: I think there`s a big disagreement.
GRACE: Me, too.
KIRKWOOD: There are two camps and they`re arguing. That`s what I think`s going on.
GRACE: That`s what I think. Matt Zarrell...
KIRKWOOD: And I`ll bet it`s heated.
GRACE: I agree with Kirkwood, Matt. I think I`ve got Matt Zarrell.
ZARRELL: Nancy, there`s one juror in every case that wants to hear all the evidence before they make a decision.
GRACE: OK, here`s some good news, everybody, as we`re wondering about that Provo jury. Kathryn Stalbaum is safe and alive with Chicago police. The 15-year-old girl out of Wisconsin has been found safe with Provo (sic) police. OK, there is a God, miracles do happen.
Everyone, we are in a verdict watch here at HLN. and we will bring you the very latest when that jury hands down a verdict.
Everyone, tonight, we stop to remember American hero Sergeant Justin Allen, 23, Coal Grove, Ohio, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Meritorious Service Medal, loved his cowboy boots and the great outdoors, parents Roger (ph) and Bonnie Sue (ph), brother Brian (ph), sister Jennifer (ph). Justin Allen, American hero.
Everyone, again, we are on a verdict watch. Let`s pray the jury will bring home a true verdict. And until then, good night, friend.
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