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Nancy Grace

George Zimmerman Arrested Again; Child Found Handcuffed with Dead Chicken Around Neck

Aired November 18, 2013 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SUNNY HOSTIN, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain acquitted in the shooting death of 17-year- old Trayvon Martin, is arrested again today, Zimmerman taken into police custody in central Florida after a disturbance call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because at 12:30 this afternoon, a Seminole County sheriff`s deputy received a report of a disturbance call at the 1300 block at Topfield Court in Apopka, unincorporated Seminole County. And that is the home of George Zimmerman`s girlfriend.

When we arrived, the victim in this particular case indicated that she and George Zimmerman were having a verbal dispute, and at that time, she alleged that he had broken a table and at one point pointed a long-barreled shotgun at her.

She worked -- she was able to work her way to the front door of the residence on her cell phone and called 911 to make contact with authorities. And at that time, he actually pushed her out of the front of the residence and then barricaded the door with some furniture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOSTIN: And tonight, disturbing case out of North Carolina. He`s just 11 years old and police say he`s punished by being chained -- that`s right, chained -- to the front porch with a dead chicken around his neck. Inside the home, it`s a house of horror, multiple children and animals living in terrible, inhumane conditions. And you`re not going to believe it, but the foster mom is actually a supervisor for Child Protective Services.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The outside of this North Carolina house provides clues of the alleged horror happening here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child had a dead chicken hung around his neck.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sheriff`s deputies say that 11-year-old boy was shivering while allegedly handcuffed by the ankle to the porch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A social services worker and her husband, a nurse, are in jail facing child abuse charges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dorian Lee Harper (ph) and Wanda Sue Larsen (ph) now face intentional child abuse, inflicting serious injury, false imprisonment and cruelty to animals charges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overwhelming smell of urine and feces, piles and piles of garbage, farm animals running wild.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were put inside the room and chained in there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 11-year-old was regularly handcuffed. There was a room inside that home where he was tied to a piece of railroad (sic), handcuffed there, on a customary basis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOSTIN: Good evening. I`m Sunny Hostin, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for joining me tonight.

First we go off the top to central Florida. George Zimmerman, yes, arrested again. For the latest on this breaking development, let`s go out to Orlando and Jonathan Beaton, anchor-reporter with news 96.5 WDBO. I think we also have Alexis Tereszcuk, also an investigative reporter, with Radaronline.com. Thank you both so much for joining me.

And Jonathan, let me go straight out to you. What do we know so far about this alleged domestic dispute between George Zimmerman and his current girlfriend?

JONATHAN BEATON, WDBO: Well, Sunny, details so far are scarce, but here`s what we do know. Earlier today, a disturbance call was placed to Seminole County sheriff`s office. We don`t know who made that call so far. What we do know is there was some sort of a domestic dispute at George Zimmerman`s girlfriend`s home.

She`s a 27-year-old woman, and according to previous police reports that have been filed, they`ve been together for several weeks now. They were even together during an incident that happened with George Zimmerman`s estranged wife, Shellie, about a month, month-and-a-half back, in her Lake Mary home, where he allegedly punched her father and broke her iPad. A video could not be recovered off of that iPad, and charges were never filed.

So this is just the latest incident in a string of police reports and incidents since he was acquitted over the summer in the death of 17-year- old Trayvon Martin.

HOSTIN: Now, Alexis, I do remember during the trial, this did not come in, but there were other allegations of domestic violence involving George Zimmerman. Can you get us up to speed on that?

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: These were with his estranged wife. She actually filed for divorce just in September, but the judge would not let it in. She has claimed for quite a few times that there was domestic violence incidents.

HOSTIN: And also, Jonathan, wasn`t there another incident many, many years ago involving domestic violence with George Zimmerman? I think I recall something about an ex-girlfriend getting a temporary restraining order against him, and then George Zimmerman also filed a restraining order against her. Am I remembering that correctly?

BEATON: Well, Sunny, there`s been past incidents where George Zimmerman has displayed what many would say are violent tendencies. There`s that one you mentioned, another that happened several years back where he was arrested at a college bar near the University of Central Florida. Charges were dropped down from a felony to a misdemeanor.

So yes, this is just one more in a string of violent incidents that involve George Zimmerman.

HOSTIN: Now, I understand, Jonathan, that neighbors were not aware necessarily that it was George Zimmerman. But what do they have to say about George Zimmerman and his girlfriend?

BEATON: Well, so far, I haven`t heard a lot from them. It`s safe to assume that this is probably making them very uncomfortable. You go back to the incident with his estranged wife, Shellie, in Lake Mary, which is just a few miles down the road from where the shooting death of Trayvon Martin occurred. And you heard from residents a while back there, a couple months ago, and they seemed to be bothered by this, and you know, naturally so.

This is a guy who seems to attract attention. Now, is that because of the media? Is it because of his own actions? You know, that remains to be seen.

HOSTIN: Now, I think it`s also being reported that some of the neighbors thought that George Zimmerman was an off-duty police officer, an undercover police officer because of the way he was sort of walking around the neighborhood.

So Alexis, tell me this. Where is George Zimmerman right now? That`s his mug shot that we`re showing. He`s got so much facial hair. He does look a bit different than he looked during the trial -- Trayvon Martin. Where is he at tonight?

TERESZCUK: George is actually locked in jail. He is behind bars, and in fact, he has been denied bail. So he is not going to be getting out anytime soon.

HOSTIN: Oh, my goodness. That was my next question. Was he eligible for bail?

TERESZCUK: Sorry to jump on it!

HOSTIN: Tell me a little bit more about the denial of bail. What do you know?

TERESZCUK: So he`s been charged with a felony, and this is the reason why that he`s been denied bail, because of the domestic incident, that this is what they`ve charged him with.

HOSTIN: Well, Jonathan, you know, you mentioned there were so many other incidents involving George Zimmerman after his acquittal in the Trayvon Martin case. There was also controversy, if I remember, over the Keltec (ph) gun manufacturing company that he toured. What can you tell us about that?

BEATON: Well, a lot of people almost took that as almost an insult to injury, Sunny. He toured this factory, where, like you said, Keltec weapons are made, the same gun he used to shoot and kill Trayvon Martin back in 2011. And he toured this factory, and then pictures began to surface on line of him with people who worked there. And a lot of people, they weren`t too pleased by it because, like I said, they took it as almost a slap in the face after his acquittal.

HOSTIN: Well, I have with me Rod Vereen. He was the attorney for Rachel Jeantel. Many of you will remember Rachel Jeantel`s testimony and the reaction that the jury had to it and the reaction, really, that the world had to Rachel Jeantel.

Rod, thank you so much for joining me. I want to ask you, I mean, what do you make of George Zimmerman`s behavior since his acquittal?

ROD VEREEN, ATTORNEY FOR RACHEL JEANTEL: You know, it`s troubling, to say, you know, the least. It appears that Mr. Zimmerman has some serious emotional problems. I think he`s narcissistic. I think it now shows that he`s the type of individual that tries to control the situation. And if he cannot control you in the manner in which he wants to, it appears that he resorts to violence.

And it appears this is the third time that he`s had such a situation, the first time being with Trayvon Martin, the second time with his ex-wife, and now here`s the third time with his girlfriend.

HOSTIN: Well, over the summer, as you mentioned, Shellie Zimmerman certainly accused George Zimmerman of punching her, of hitting her father, of smashing her iPad, but no charges were brought. What do you think? Will the same thing happen here?

VEREEN: Well, I`m hoping, you know, that if the situation did -- you know, did take place, that his girlfriend will stand up for herself and not allow herself to be victimized by Mr. Zimmerman. I think his wife had serious problems with her credibility based on the perjury conviction that she sustained.

But I don`t know the history of his girlfriend. I don`t know whether or not she has any problems with regard to being truthful in the past. And so if she is a true victim of domestic violence, I hope that she does what many women do today, which is stand up for herself.

HOSTIN: And I`m glad you mentioned that because our viewers should know, I tried domestic violence cases and crimes against women, and without a witness, you really do need the cooperation of the victim, especially if there aren`t significant injuries, because it becomes this he said/she said. Without the cooperation of the victim, it`s almost impossible to prosecute these cases. Isn`t that right, Rod?

VEREEN: I agree. I mean, I, as a former prosecutor myself, one of the main problems I had with regard to domestic violence cases is that the women will come back and recant. The officers take down the statements that these victims make at the time that they make the statements, but by the time the case gets to trial, they have either made up with the boyfriends or husbands, or whomever the individual was that assaulted them, and they will recant their testimony, they will change testimony.

They will file affidavits of non-prosecution asking the state to drop the charges. Or they will simply not show up for court when it`s time for trial. And so the state will have a, you know, uphill battle trying to get this case before a jury and/or a judge in order to prosecute this case of - - if (ph) the case proceeds to trial.

HOSTIN: Now, you know, we`ve been talking about all of his behavior after the acquittal, and I have to ask you -- you know, everyone, everyone watched that trial and that verdict. How do you think that case will affect any domestic violence charges that are now pending against George Zimmerman? I mean, we`re hearing that he`s been charged with felony domestic violence.

VEREEN: Well, you know, what happens is, when you are trying to pick a jury, the court is going to do its best to make sure that the jury is impartial. The prosecution`s going to do the same, as well at the defense attorney.

But when the jury gets back there in the deliberation room, even though the judge instructs them that they are to follow the law and not to use any outside influences or rely on any outside influences in making the verdict, you know in the minds of those jurors, they are going to reflect on the fact that this is the same individual that many believe now has gotten away with murder in the past.

And so although they may say that they`re fair and impartial and although they make take an oath to follow the duty and take, you know, the oath of a juror, which is to be impartial and fair, you know, they`re still human beings. And I believe that, you know, in the back of their minds, they`re still going to harbor the thought that this person is violent, this person has committed violence in the past, and this may be just another example of him acting out.

HOSTIN: Thank you, Rod, for joining us.

And more on the breaking news of George Zimmerman`s arrest just today when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOSTIN: An acquittal in the shooting death of unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, multiple traffic stops by the police, even an alleged altercation with his now estranged wife. And tonight, just hours ago, George Zimmerman gets arrested again. He`s back in police custody.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within three minutes, or a little over three minutes, Seminole County deputies arrived on scene and were able to make contact with the victim on the outside of the residence.

She provided responding deputies with, actually, a key to the home, and deputies were able to open the door, push away the furniture that was barricading the door, and confronted George Zimmerman as he sat there.

At that time, he was unarmed. He offered no resistance to deputies as they responded. And he was immediately taken into investigative detention at that time so they could gather additional information from our victim in this particular case.

As that case continued to evolve, they made determination that they had probable cause for George Zimmerman`s arrest, and he was arrested and booked into the Seminole County correctional facility at 1:00 o`clock this afternoon, where he currently is.

He has been charged with aggravated assault, battery domestic violence, as well as criminal mischief. He is scheduled for a first appearance tomorrow morning (sic) at 1:30 PM, which is customary for anybody who`s arrested at this particular time of the day.

As customary for domestic violence cases, he is currently held under a no bond status, and he will see the judge tomorrow morning, where the judge will make a determination whether or not a bond is appropriate in this particular case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOSTIN: Thank you so much for staying with me. And joining me tonight, I have Alexis Tereszcuk. She is a senior reporter with Radaronline.com. We have some additional information about these charges. Alexis, fill us in.

TERESZCUK: So because George Zimmerman has been arrested for domestic violence, the county will not grant him bail. He has to appear before a judge, and that is not scheduled until 1:30 tomorrow, on Tuesday afternoon. So he`s going to sit in jail until he appears before this judge. That`s the way it is for all arrests that are charged with domestic violence.

HOSTIN: And let me bring in Eric Schwartzreich. He`s an attorney, a Florida attorney. Eric, can you please give us a little bit of background on that because we`re now hearing he`s been charged with felony domestic violence, not eligible for bail at this time. Can you explain that?

ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he`s going to get bail. I mean, you can bet your bottom dollar he`ll get bail. But because it is a domestic violence, in most counties in Florida, there`s a hold for 24 hours until they have their Gersten (ph) peal (ph) with their first appearance court, which will be tomorrow at 1:30. Tomorrow at 1:30 because this is not a life felony, he will be entitled to bail as a matter of right, and the judge will probably impose no contact or no harmful contact with the victim, unless the victim wants contact.

HOSTIN: I have Frank Taaffe with me. He certainly is a friend of George Zimmerman and has been one of his most vocal supporters. Frank, what do you make of George Zimmerman having been arrested and going to spend tonight in the Sanford jailhouse?

FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Well, you know, let`s wait for all the facts and evidence to come out again, Sunny, just like before the trial started last year, facts and the evidence. And your other guest, Mr. Vereen, who represented Rachel Jeantel -- he`s already got the jury deliberating. I mean, really? Come on. Let`s let due process take its course, Sunny. You being a formal federal prosecutor -- you saw all the facts and evidence in the case. Let`s let it -- let`s let it play out.

But more importantly, you know, George is being oppressed by the press. You know, if he lights up a cigarette in a non-smoking zone...

HOSTIN: How is he being oppressed by the press? I mean, the press aren`t...

TAAFFE: Come on!

HOSTIN: ... arresting him, Frank.

TAAFFE: How many -- how many -- Sunny...

HOSTIN: He got arrested himself.

TAAFFE: Sunny, how many people -- Sunny, how many people do you know make national news for a ticket? How many people do you -- getting pulled over for speeding, getting pulled over for a domestic violence issue -- and I want to clear up what your other speaker just said...

HOSTIN: But he`s just been arrested, Frank.

TAAFFE: ... that he was not charged...

HOSTIN: He`s just been arrested.

TAAFFE: Yes, OK, all right. You know, it happens. It happens. But I want to clear up -- go on the record and clear up another thing. Prior to the trial, there were mutual restraining orders put on both he and his fiancee at that time that didn`t come into evidence at the trial.

Also, he was not charged with felony battery. It was simple battery on an undercover alcohol and beverage officer who was acting as a security guard at a frat party, where beer and wine is served, and other things, other scandalous things.

HOSTIN: Is George Zimmerman the victim here, Frank?

TAAFFE: Yes. It`s you guys that say, See? I told you so. OK? See? I told you so. And you`re all trying to connect the dots and spin it every way you can to say, See? The state was right in charging him with second- degree murder.

HOSTIN: I don`t even know what to say to that. We`ll be right back after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOSTIN: We`ve been talking about George Zimmerman`s yet again arrest, this time for domestic violence with his current girlfriend. And I want to bring in Dr. Durvasula to sort of explore this with me because since his acquittal, George Zimmerman has been accused of punching his father-in-law, smashing his soon to be ex-wife`s iPad, stealing from his mother-in-law, speeding and now domestic violence. Doctor, what is going on here?

RAMANI DURVASULA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST (via telephone): You know, here`s where there`s a disconnect between psychology and the legal system because the fact is, with George Zimmerman, where there`s smoke, there`s fire. This guy cannot regulate his anger, his emotions. He`s very narcissistic. He kind of does what he wants.

But the fact is, all this other stuff`s not admissible in a court of law. So each one of these events gets judged individually. This guy`s a powder keg. You can almost set your clock on the fact that he`s going to blow up again.

HOSTIN: You know, other high-profile defendants, such as O.J. Simpson, who were acquitted, also got into trouble with the law subsequently, and they end up in jail. What are your thoughts about that? What is the future for George Zimmerman?

DURVASULA: The future for George Zimmerman is not very good, or for the people around him, for that matter, because, again, this guy has shown that he gets away with stuff. Listen, if you commit a crime and you get away with it, guess what you`re going to do again? You`re going to keep breaking rules.

No one has ever told him his behavior is unacceptable. So people like him, him, the O.J.`s, they keep getting into trouble because no one ever stops them. So that`s -- that`s what the future holds for him, is more of this. And sadly, someone may get hurt badly before his story`s over.

HOSTIN: Well, we will certainly on this story. Thank you so much, Doctor.

And coming up next, a house of horrors, foster parents accused of chaining an 11-year-old boy to the front porch with a dead chicken around his neck. And so how is this foster mother a supervisor for Child Protective Services? We`ll get into that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOSTIN: A nightmare for an 11-year-old little boy rescued by cops after they find him chained to the front porch, shivering, with a dead chicken around his neck. And who did this to him? Well, investigators say it`s his foster parents, and the foster mother is actually a supervisor for Child Protective Services.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: North Carolina foster parents are behind bars after police make a horrifying discovery at their home.

HOSTIN: A nightmare for an 11-year-old little boy rescued by cops after they find him chained to the front porch, shivering with a dead chicken around his neck. And who did this to him? Well, investigators say it`s his foster parents, and the foster mother is actually a supervisor for child protective services.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: North Carolina foster parents are behind bars after police make a horrifying discovery at their home.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Eleven-year-old foster child shivering handcuffed at the ankles to a railing on the porch.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: With a dead chicken around his neck.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Dorian Lee Harper, an emergency room nurse and Wanda Sue Larson, a union county DSS supervisor are charged with child abuse and false imprisonment of the 11-year-old foster child.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Investigators say the conditions inside the home weren`t by any means healthy.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Feces on the floors. Holes in the walls. Filth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOSTIN: This is such a disturbing story. Especially considering the foster parents` involvement. We`re learning that the foster mother was with the investigative unit of the Child Protective Services Office, and that the foster father was an emergency room nurse.

And I want to bring in Sheriff Eddie Cathey, he`s a union county sheriff, he`s been all over this story intimately involved. Sheriff, thank you so much for joining me, and can you please tell us what was this little boy, this little 11-year-old boy wearing at the time he was discovered by police?

EDDIE CATHEY, UNION COUNTY SHERIFF, ON THE CASE (on the phone): He had on a t-shirt and long pants, and just sitting out there. No coat. Winter temperatures. Sitting out on the porch handcuffed to the rail with a dead chicken tied around his neck.

HOSTIN: And -- you know, why was, do we know why there was a dead chicken tied around his neck? Has he spoken to police about that?

CATHEY: Well, we have talked to him at a little bit, but we don`t feel that he`s ready to talk a lot. He`s pretty traumatic for not only that child but the other four children that were in that home. So we`re giving them a little time, a day or two, to settle down a little bit, and then we want to have professionals that deal with children of this age do the interviews.

HOSTIN: And this is just incredible to me. Especially -- I`m a mother, sheriff. Of an 11-year-old little boy, and they are so very naive at this age. Do we know why he was chained? To the front porch, and given this punishment of a chicken around his neck? Have we learned anything as to why the parents felt that he should be punished in that way?

CATHEY: We have a -- I haven`t heard anything that I think is a valid reason. You know, to chain up a child because he runs away, or -- or these other rumors that are out there, there`s no reason that I can think of. If he runs away from home and you chain him up because he run away from home, that`s not a good answer. You need to get him some help. Not chain him up. There`s a lot of information out there, but we have found nothing that can even remotely justify anything in this case.

HOSTIN: We are in agreement there, sheriff. Let me mention. You mentioned other children -- other children -- in the home. Home many other children were in the home and what is there relation, if any, to this little boy?

CATHEY: There were four other children in the home ranging up to age 14. They are cousins, but they have also been adopted. The little boy out on the porch, they had guardianship over that child, and they tell us three -- or the other four were actually adopted.

HOSTIN: You know what I don`t understand, sheriff, how is it that this couple was allowed to have four adopted children and one foster child for all of this time and this is the first time that we have discovered the conditions in this home?

CATHEY: Well, I think you have asked a question that all of us are asking, and what this investigation is going to tell us before it`s over with was, how did, and by the way, it`s been reported they were married. We now know they weren`t married. So we will ask the question is, how does a single mother with a full-time job have adoption of four children and custody of a fifth child? Those are questions that certainly we want the answers to.

HOSTIN: Because if you think about it, you know, normally when you have children in the foster system, foster care system, there are home visits. Right? And there are reports done. Do we have any indication that there were home visits? I mean, you`ve described a house of horrors here. Sort of a just absolute squalor.

CATHEY: We have some paperwork about, they were going to do home visits, and that`s not coming from our social services here in -- those children did not come from our county. So we have got some reports that they were scheduled some home visits, but that`s really not good enough. We need to have something that says they made home visits, or they didn`t make home visits and why they didn`t make home visits.

HOSTIN: I suspect it has something to do with the fact that she worked with Child Protective Services, but let me ask you this. What exactly have these two been charged with?

CATHEY: OK. They`ve both been charged with willful imprisonment. They`re charged with intentional child abuse and neglect and serious injury, false imprisonment, cruelty to animals. And Wanda Sue Larson was the DSS worker. She`s charged with failing to discharge her duty as a public official. This is what she did. So if she saw the conditions that those children were in, she should have took action as a public official. So we went ahead and charged her with that.

HOSTIN: And let me ask you, then, sheriff, what kind of criminal exposure do we have here? What kind of time in prison are they looking at?

CATHEY: You know, I haven`t looked up to see the length of years that they could serve, but certainly this is serious charges, and -- and I would say this -- we are in the infancy of this investigation. So we`ll see where this leads and what other charges, if any, will come.

HOSTIN: And I suspect, sheriff, that the intentional child abuse charge is a felony. Correct?

CATHEY: It is yes.

HOSTIN: And so we know at least we`re talking about years in prison.

CATHEY: That`s --

HOSTIN: Not months. Because I think the other charges are probably misdemeanors. So we`re talking about months there.

CATHEY: Yes. This is a felony.

HOSTIN: And as you mentioned earlier, there is no excuse. No excuse for this type of abuse of children. It is despicable that someone that is tasked to care for children and protect them would have this going on in their very home. More on this case when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOSTIN: Cops find an 11-year-old little boy chained to the front porch shivering with a dead chicken around his neck and in a shocking twist his foster mother is actually a supervisor for Child Protective Services.

(EBGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: An 11-year-old boy shivering, chained by his ankle to his front porch rail with a dead chicken around his neck.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The chicken feet were tied together by a string and it`s hanging around his neck. Hanging down.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Deputies arrested the boy`s foster parents. Wanda Larson and her husband, Dorian Harper.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The woman, the adoptive mother in this case, Wanda Sue Larson, she`s a supervisor at social services.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: She was recognized for helping victims of child maltreatment. Now she`s accused of child abuse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOSTIN: And now certainly I think most people are going to ask themselves, how do you defend a case like this? So let me bring in two defense attorneys.

Let me bring in Eric Schwartzreich and also I have with me, Shireen Hormozdi. And I have to ask you Shireen, what do you do with a case like this? What is the defense?

SHIREEN HORMOZDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is a very difficult case to defend, naturally, but I wanted to know if this was a misguided attempt at discipline? Like you were asking, what led these parents to do this? There`s nothing reasonable that the child could have done that would have caused them to do this. But possibly was this a misguided attempt to discipline a child?

HOSTIN: You know, Eric, I have to ask you, though, that kind of defense, isn`t that going to be made more difficult when you look at the professions of these foster parents? The mother, an investigator, someone that is part of the investigative unit of child protective services, and get this, the father is an emergency room nurse. Again, someone tasked to take care of people. How does that help them?

ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It doesn`t help them. In fact, it hurts them. So as a defense attorney, you have to try very diligently and very hard to try and keep that out in front of the jury. But the reality is the jury will look at you when you`re in a case like this, like for lack of a better term like, the defense attorney smoking crack, allegedly like the Toronto mayor. The problem is is that, when you have allegations like this and you`re in front of a jury and they`re horrendous allegations, and well, everyone`s entitled to due process and a defense, this is a very, very difficult case.

I mean, you have a dead chicken tied around a child`s neck. I mean, how you`re going to argue that it`s any misguided attempt at discipline or corporal punishment as opposed to child abuse is going to be very, very difficult. So, I think what you need to do is look at mental health issues and see, you know, what`s going on here and why and try and mitigate, because to try to go in front of a jury, if these allegations and their allegations are true, you really, really have your work cut out for you. And while we`re defense lawyers, we are not Houdini and this is a very, very difficult case.

HOSTIN: I like that. Because I think it would require Houdini to get these two off.

SCHWARTZREICH: Sunny, I like to think I can win any case, and defense attorneys will tell you, but you know, beside that this is horrific, I mean, I`m not sure -- this is horrific allegations, this is very difficult to take in front of a jury and you want to have credibility with the jury. When they fear these allegations of a chicken, or somehow used this dead chicken, tied around a child`s neck, I mean, it`s really horrific and you`re going to have a lot of problems.

HOSTIN: And Eric, you mentioned --

SCHWARTZREICH: In case you want to mitigate.

HOSTIN: Yes, I mean, you mentioned mental health issues. Because I think that`s sort of the first thing that jumps into your mind when you think, how could someone do this? Who does this?

And so let me bring in our psychologist again, Dr. Durvasula. Because, you know, that`s I think the question I think, on everyone`s mind. Who does this? How could that happen?

DR. RAMANI DURVASULA, PSYCHOLOGIST (on the phone): I mean, this, again, this is when we start bringing in terms psychologists don`t usually use. Like evil. But you know, this is either incredible sociopathy with absolutely no insight or care about how they were treating these kids. I actually don`t really think it`s discipline gone awry. I also think that it`s also possible that these people were downright delusional or psychotic in believing that this is OK behavior, but I really do think that this feels like people who were just downright sociopathic. Absolutely no remorse for what they`ve done. They simply did it, they felt it was right. And, you know, seems like probably the animals might have been in better shape than the children on that part.

HOSTIN: You know, I completely agree and because I am the mother of an 11-year-old, I know that these are the formative years. These are the years when they really need to be protected, when they`re trying to find themselves. Is this type of abuse going to affect this boy for the rest of his life? Can he recover from something like this?

DURVASULA: It is going to affect him for the rest of his life. The question is a matter of degree. Which is how much is it going to affect him? Will he be placed in a stable setting to get the kind of treatments he needs and all of that since the odds aren`t good that will happen? That there are going to be long-term ramifications. His ability to trust other people. The kind of psychiatric work that could come up with this. And honestly, this kind of stuff can really hurt his physical health for the rest of his life, believe it or not. Just because his body will not respond to stress in the best way possible.

So, what these people have done is not just harm him now, but they`ve harmed him for the rest of his life, and I certainly hope that when a sentence is handed down, if it is, that that punishment recognizes that he`s not been harmed today. He`s been harmed forever.

HOSTIN: And when you mention that, and that is so poignant, that he`s been harmed forever. We have Dr. Bill Manion with us, he`s a New Jersey medical examiner. And I understand that this child and all four other children are expected to undergo medical exams to determine how much, if any, abuse they were subjected to. Now, tell me, doctor. Manion, what would those exams entail?

DR. BILL MANION, M.D., NEW JERSEY MEDICAL EXAMINER (on the phone): Well, the look on the external examining their skin, if everything is a bruises or belt marks or anything. They`ll examine their oral cavity to see if there is any cut lips or damage to the gums. They will -- if it`s a serious enough case, if they may take X-rays. They may do a skeletal survey to see if there`s any old rib fracture. They will also obviously measure they are height and weight to see, are they suffering from malnutrition, are they underweight? Are they failing to thrive? Now, when we do a, a -- when we do an autopsy on a battered baby, we do basically the same thing. Or a battered young child, we do skeletal surveys looking for evidence of old fractures. And again, examine for bruises and injuries. Typical -- certain fractures. Spiral fractures. Fractured ribs are associated with child abuse and a red flag for us.

HOSTIN: And Dr. Manion, I`ve got to ask you. Because we`re hearing reports that part of the punishment was if they arrived at the dinner table too late, they were only given half a meal. Or if they didn`t do their homework, they wouldn`t be fed. What type of effect would this type of malnutrition have on a child`s development? Because we know these children, range in age from eight to 14.

MANION: Well, there`s going to be effects on their mental development, because they`re not getting enough calories, enough vitamins. This is the whole point of all those programs where we provide meals for children in impoverished areas in the United States. You know, it`s a head start program, get them a good breakfast, get them off to a good day, because you`re going to function better during the day and you`re going to mature better and develop intellectually better as well sensibly better.

HOSTIN: Thank you so much for that insight, doctor. And when we come back, we`ll talk more about this horrific, horrific case and perhaps what we can do.

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HOSTIN: Welcome back. And we are talking about the terrible allegations of child abuse in a home, really a house of horrors.

And I want to bring in Marc Klaas, who`s the president and founder of the Klaaskids Foundation to talk about what we can do, what should we be aware of when we hear about cases like this, especially in the foster care system where some children are just so vulnerable. You know, what criteria are there to become a foster parent? Because it`s shocking to me that these two had not one, not two, but they had five children in that home.

MARC KLAAS, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Yes, Sunny, it`s absolutely unbelievable. And the word I haven`t heard yet in describing their actions towards these children is sadism. I mean, it`s obvious that these people are sadists and they`re cowards. They like to inflict punishment on small children, but there were also red flags, there were instances of these boys almost the escaping to neighbor`s homes begging for food or shelter, and nobody did anything.

Now, when you`re in a situation like this lady was in, with insider knowledge, in the ability to parrot what she needs to parrot in words, and the ability to circumvent reports and other administrative functions, enabled her to be able to do this. We`re never going to be able to legislate everything out of the system to prevent this. We`re never going to be able to administer everything out of it. What we have to do is step up as citizens and when little children escape to our houses begging for food or begging for shelter, we have to do more than turn a blind eye to it. We have to notify the authorities.

HOSTIN: We have to do more, as people, as citizens. So well said. We`ll be right back.

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HOSTIN: Dorian Lee Harper and Wanda Sue Larson now face intentional child abuse, inflicting serious injury, false imprisonment and cruelty to animals charges. Authorities removed five children from the home, ages eight to 14. Four adopted kids and the one allegedly handcuff, a foster child.

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UNIDENTIFIED MAN: That makes it even sicker, they`re supposed to be looking after children, and children being fed, and here she`s doing this to that child. That is some sick people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOSTIN: Now, I have with me to give us some more information about this house are horrors, Brett Larson, he`s an investigative reporter. And we`ve been talking, Bret about this case. Tell us the conditions in this home.

BRETT LARSON, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Absolutely disgusting. I mean, it makes something you would see in a horror film look like child`s play. The police say, the stench was just something that stuck with you, it lingered in the yard. The house was covered in animal feces, this rail road tie, this railroad tie that this 11-year-old child was chained to was also covered in animal feces. So, not quite the kind of place that`s even something you would want to go through for fun, you know, pay a couple of dollars on Halloween night, go through and get a scare and certainly, absolutely not the place you should be raising children.

HOSTIN: This is just unbelievable. And I`ve also been hearing, Brett, that there were a lot of animals at this home, it was not necessarily a farm, but what animals were living on the property?

LARSON: I mean, it sounds like a zoo. There were chickens, there were llamas, there were a hog that got away, which apparently tipped off one of the neighbors that started this whole process, this hog gets into a neighbor`s yard, starts eating her flowers. And that`s what brings the sheriff around. But it`s clearly not a place where children should be raised at all.

HOSTIN: Let`s stop to remember American hero army private First Class Austin Staggs. Just 19-years-old, from Senoia, Georgia, he was awarded the bronze star and Purple Heart. And he loved fishing. He leaves behind his parents Byram and Kaye, his step parents Kathy and Judd, three sisters, two brothers, his widow Sheena, and his son Kaleen. Austin Staggs, a true American hero.

Dr. Drew is coming up next.

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