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Nancy Grace
George Zimmerman Attempted Suicide?; The Death of Punishment
Aired November 20, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Orlando suburbs. After 17-year-old Trayvon Martin is gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch, George Zimmerman, in a jury trial that nearly splits the courtroom wide open with a not guilty verdict, Zimmerman walks free.
Then in the last 48 hours, Zimmerman does it again, back in court when his live-in lover claims she`s in fear for her own life after Zimmerman points a shotgun straight at her face.
Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, reports Zimmerman puts a loaded gun in his own mouth, threatening to pull the trigger. Evidence of guilt?
Last night, in the wee hours, cops back at Zimmerman`s love nest he shared with his girlfriend, Zimmerman, dodging divorce papers for months, finally served just last night in jail, just before he makes bond and drives away in a pricey BMW.
Tonight, we go live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find George Zimmerman, not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s in my housebreaking all my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) because I asked him to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had probable cause for George Zimmerman`s arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had anger management, and he successfully completed that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has been charged with aggravated is assault.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t have anything to say.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has his frickin` gun, breaking all of my stuff right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Battery, domestic violence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t brandish a gun. He had his hand on the gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Criminal mischief.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know my husband. I saw him in a stance and a look in his eyes that I`ve never seen before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands up!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he continually has his hand on his gun, and he keeps saying, "Step closer." He`s just threatening all of us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on your knees!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he`s going to shoot us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cross your feet!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many thought this was the last time they`d see George Zimmerman inside a courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not one more! Not one more!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not one more! Not one more!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not one more! Not one more!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fifteen months after his arrest for killing Trayvon Martin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want everyone to know the truth. Can I call my attorney?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Tacoma suburbs. After a major fight, he demands, quote, "makeup sex." But when she says no, he kills her with the vacuum cleaner and then claims post-traumatic stress syndrome as a defense!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) than you could ever possibly need.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-tree-year-old Angela Canesio Brooks (ph) was killed inside her Lakewood apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just devastating, just completely devastated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her boyfriend made a frantic call to 911 about 4:00 AM, saying Angela was unresponsive and needed help. Paramedics found the scene suspicious and called police, who quickly determined they were dealing with a domestic violence murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A horrible, horrible ordeal. It`s just sad, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 32-year-old boyfriend-turned-murder suspect is a soldier.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had nothing but love for everybody (INAUDIBLE) have love for her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Angela`s estranged husband, Kevin Brooks, is heartbroken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s going to be sadly missed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also tonight: They rape, they child molest, they murder. A few get sent to death row. Tonight, death row investigations. Outrage! Death row inmates` wild partying on death row!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wake up, and you know, I clean myself. My cellie usually goes to work, watch some primetime and then go to bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See, everything`s based upon one`s behavior in here. Once you go through the program, you dictate what happens to you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, man!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go, go!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, our job is just to follow the law. Our job is to make sure he does the 20 years, or our job is to see that the dissidence (ph) is carried out. Our job is not to punish or do anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you`re not angry?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I`m not angry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did I just see death row inmates partying and playing baseball in uniforms I think I, the taxpayer, bought?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. In the last 48 hours, George Zimmerman does it again, back in court when his live-in lover claims she`s in fear for her own life when Zimmerman points a shotgun straight at her face.
As we go to air tonight, we learn reports Zimmerman puts a loaded gun in his own mouth, threatening to pull the trigger. Evidence of guilt? In the wee hours last night, cops back at Zimmerman`s love nest he shares with his girlfriend, dodging divorce papers for months. And finally, in the last hours, he`s served in jail with divorce papers just before he makes bond and drives away in a pricey BMW. Wow, that`s the life.
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Deborah Roberts, anchor with Florida News Network. First of all, let me ask you this. Whose BMW was that that Zimmerman drove away in? Because he`s claiming he`s indigent, that he needs me, the taxpayer, to pay for his defense again. And could you explain to me, is that his BMW? Because if it is, I want to put a repo order on that thing.
DEBORAH ROBERTS, FLORIDA NEWS NETWORK: Well, I`m hoping it`s not his BMW because according to an affidavit he just filed in the Seminole County courthouse, he has only about $144 to his name and is reportedly over $2 million in debt. So I`m hoping that`s a friend`s or a family member`s. If not, he does have some explaining to do.
GRACE: OK, Clark Goldband, take a look at that thing. What is that? Is that a 2013 BMW he`s driving away from the jail?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... I want to know if it`s in his name.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It certainly looks like a very nice car, Nancy. That`s for sure.
GRACE: So you can`t tell me. OK, you`re not a car aficionado.
GOLDBAND: Well, let`s take a look. Let`s take a look. I see...
GRACE: "Let`s take a look"!
GOLDBAND: It looks like an X6, which if my car knowledge is correct, is kind of one of those crossover models between a sedan and an SUV, relatively new, I believe.
GRACE: OK, there goes Zimmerman, living the life, living large, leaving the jail in a pricey BMW. This after he tells the court he`s broke, $2.5 million in debt.
OK, out to you, Deborah Roberts, anchor, Florida News Network. What can you tell me about reports Zimmerman puts a gun in his own mouth, threatening to pull the trigger? He`s overwhelmed when the press frenzy dies away after the Trayvon Martin acquittal. He misses all the attention and threatens to kill himself? What happened?
ROBERTS: Exactly. Well, according to his girlfriend, Samantha Scheibe, after the acquittal and the shooting death of Trayvon Martin in July, Zimmerman sank into a very deep depression that just continued to get worse. Finally, she demanded he seek professional help, at which time he was given medication. But at some point he stopped is taking it.
And she said he would spend days in bed, crying. One time, she had found an empty bottle of sleeping pills next to the bed and believed he had overdosed. She wasn`t able to revive him, but she said she did watch his breathing. And when he finally did come to, he started crying, and that was when he put the gun in his mouth, saying he was just ready end to it all.
GRACE: OK, you know what, Deborah Roberts, anchor, Florida News Network? He would not be the first person accused or acquitted of murder that then threatens or tries to commit suicide. Of course, there`s the obvious one, O.J. Simpson, who gets off on double murder and then threatens suicide. You know, the whole ride with A.J. Cowlings, he was threatening suicide the whole time.
Then there`s Josh Powell, who threatened suicide, went suicidal, after his wife, Susan Smith, goes missing, and he also killed his two little children. Then there`s Andrea Yates, of course, who was found to be insane. She went on suicide watch after she killed all of her children by drowning them in the tub.
Then, of course, there`s the Craigslist killer, who -- don`t want to leave him off the list -- threatening suicide after he commits murder.
So out to you, Jonathan Beaton, anchor-reporter joining me from WDBO. George Zimmerman puts a gun in his own mouth and threatens -- who does he threaten to it to? What, he`s got a gun in his mouth and somehow says, I`m going to kill myself? How did this go down, Jonathan?
JONATHAN BEATON, WDBO: Nancy, according to reports that have come out of Orlando, his girlfriend, this 20-something-year-old woman, walked into his room, saw an empty bottle of pills next to him. He was in the bed, and she couldn`t even talk to him he was so out of it. And she alleges that she stayed next to him and watched him breathe until he woke up. And when he woke up, he allegedly cried and said he wanted to end it all, and that`s when he put this gun in his mouth.
GRACE: Frank Taaffe joining us tonight, a friend of George Zimmerman, actually put up the bond money to get Zimmerman out of jail. Oh, there he goes, hopping in that BMW!
Taaffe, what -- what -- can`t he -- why -- what`s his fascination with guns? Why does he have a gun?
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Well, if you were just were acquitted in the trial of the century, according to Mr. Crump, and your life is constantly in danger, I`d be carrying a gun, too.
And he hasn`t violated any laws. He hasn`t been convicted of any crimes, so he`s still allowed to keep his concealed weapons permit. But I want to talk to you about PTSD. I believe that my friend, George, is suffering from a bout of untreated PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. And the reason being, is if you look it up, and some of your esteemed guests, some of your esteemed psychologists who`ve been on -- if you look at the DSM-4, he fits right into the pattern. It is stated in the DSM-4 -- this is what I found out, is that -- and it is the bible of what most psychiatrists use and psychologists...
GRACE: Please, do not drag the bible into this. Taaffe, let me ask you a question. Are you...
TAAFFE: Hey, you know what? He`s suffering...
GRACE: I can`t see Taaffe.
TAAFFE: ... from untreated...
GRACE: Can I -- there you...
TAAFFE: Go ahead.
GRACE: Are you a doctor?
TAAFFE: No. I was going to be a doctor, but I didn`t have the patience.
GRACE: OK, that`s a yes/no. OK, so are you a shrink?
TAAFFE: No, but I can read. And I have an above average IQ.
GRACE: You can read. You can read.
TAAFFE: Yes, and I`m able to...
GRACE: OK, Taaffe, have you asked Zimmerman -- you posted his bond. Did you ask him if he`s suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome?
TAAFFE: I don`t have to ask him. His actions are being manifested by a suppressed condition that he`s suffering from. I can read a DSM-4 and have some...
GRACE: OK, let me ask you a question.
TAAFFE: Go ahead.
GRACE: Did you actually read the diagnostic manual, the fourth edition?
TAAFFE: Yes.
GRACE: Did you read it?
TAAFFE: Yes, it is...
GRACE: And what is the symptom that you believe says Zimmerman has post-traumatic stress syndrome?
TAAFFE: Well, it states unequivocably (sic) and very plainly that a - - it -- beyond...
GRACE: Spit it out.
TAAFFE: (INAUDIBLE) be within four months -- it could be within four months of a traumatic event. And think about it. July 13th, he was acquitted...
GRACE: So what is your other information...
TAAFFE: ... September, October, November -- what?
GRACE: OK...
TAAFFE: He has edginess, sleeplessness, numbness, and he also suffers from disassociative mental state, which means, you know, he...
GRACE: OK, let me ask you a question.
TAAFFE: Go ahead.
GRACE: Do you believe O.J. Simpson also had post-traumatic stress syndrome?
TAAFFE: No.
GRACE: OK. How about Josh Powell?
TAAFFE: No.
GRACE: I believe we have those photos, Liz. How about Andrew Yates?
TAAFFE: How about Susan Smith? What about Susan Smith, that drowned her kids in the car?
GRACE: What about her?
TAAFFE: She was just -- you know, she was just a psycho. George is not a psycho.
GRACE: I don`t even know what you`re saying. I don`t know why you`re even bringing in Susan Smith into this.
OK, let`s -- unleash the lawyers. With me tonight, out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, defense attorney Peter Odom. Also with me, death penalty- qualified prosecutor -- that`s death penalty-qualified prosecutor Eleanor Odom. Also with me, special guest Daryl Parks, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s parents.
OK, Daryl, first to you.
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR MARTIN FAMILY: Yes?
GRACE: What do Trayvon`s parents make of the claim that George Zimmerman put a gun in his own mouth, threatened to pull the trigger, not because he felt bad about Trayvon`s death, shooting death, but because he`s suffering post-traumatic stress syndrome?
PARKS: Well, Nancy, I really don`t think much of that. However, they`re more concerned with the fact that the killer of their son is still walking free. They are devastated and continue to be devastated every day from what they have suffered, from losing their son, from the trial they went through, and the mere fact that he`s still walking around.
GRACE: I mean, if anybody should have PTSD, it should be them.
And Peter Odom, why do I see you shaking your head yes and smiling when Taaffe says post-traumatic stress syndrome, and then you`re, like, writing it all down? You really think Taaffe knows what PTSD is after he read it once in DSM-4?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know whether he does or not, and I`m no doctor, nor a psychologist, but I can tell you...
GRACE: You`re actually a juris doctor.
PETER ODOM: A juris doctor. But I can tell you that...
GRACE: That`s a doctor of sorts.
PETER ODOM: ... George Zimmerman has gone through two very traumatic events. First of all, a jury has found that he had to kill a man in self- defense. Number two, he was a pariah in the community...
GRACE: Oh, whose fault is that?
PETER ODOM: ... for months after the acquittal. Well, I`m not...
GRACE: Whose fault is that?
PETER ODOM: Nancy, I`m just saying that these are two very traumatic events that he has gone through that could easily...
GRACE: You know, Eleanor...
PETER ODOM: ... cause him to fall apart the way he is now doing, and you know that.
GRACE: It sounds to me -- just don`t tell me what I know, OK? You speak for yourself. Do not speak for me! Don`t throw me in the same kettle with you and Taaffe! All right, Eleanor...
PETER ODOM: My point is that it`s obvious.
GRACE: ... sounds to me like he was unhappy when the media attention died away and it was, Poor, poor pitiful me. He threatened to commit suicide.
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Exactly, Nancy, and if he really has mental illness, why didn`t he go get help? Why keep putting himself in the spotlight?
Also, PTSD doesn`t cause you to continue to commit crimes of domestic violence, which he`s clearly doing, a pattern of behavior.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: In the last hours, we learn George Zimmerman puts a gun in his own mouth, threatening to pull the trigger. His defense to that, his claim, post-traumatic stress syndrome, this as cops back out of the love nest he shared with his ex-girlfriend, the one that claims he pointed a shotgun right at her face. He makes bond in the last couple of hours and drives away in a pricey BMW.
Out to the lines. Kathy, Ohio. Hi, Kathy. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First, I want to tell you I respect you totally.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I want to know, where in the heck does this Frank Taaffe guy get his information? Because how can four women -- and coming from being abused, be the -- be the people that caused him to do this to these ladies, George Zimmerman? He`s ridiculous!
GRACE: Yes, you did tell me that, Taaffe. Kathy in Ohio is right. You claimed all of this was because of his bad choice in women. And I will say that George Zimmerman loves the ladies. I don`t know if that`s good or bad. But I can tell you this much. When you pull out a long gun and point it at somebody`s mouth, yes, they don`t like that very much, Taaffe.
TAAFFE: Yes, I respect what the caller just said. But you know, if you go on the Internet and you read the patterns of behavior that have been manifested in Mr. Zimmerman in the last four months, they fall exactly in line to what was written by medical doctors...
GRACE: That`s not what she asked you!
TAAFFE: ... guys who are medical doctors, OK?
GRACE: That`s not what she asked you!
TAAFFE: Read. Read. She asked me where I got...
GRACE: That`s not what she asked you. She asked you why you blame all the women in Zimmerman`s life for all of his bad behavior, his crimes.
TAAFFE: Because they are opportunistic and his is vulnerable right now. And I know that personally because I`ve been with somebody who...
GRACE: Hey, is that his BMW? Is that his BMW?
TAAFFE: No, it`s a friend of the family.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) fear for her safety on the day of this incident. She had indicated that they had been discussing breaking up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s in my house, breaking all my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) because I asked him to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George, do you want to defend yourself?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just hours after appearing before a judge in handcuffs and learning his bond was set at $9,000.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The victim has indicated that there was a prior domestic violence incident that occurred approximately a week-and-a-half ago that involved a choking, that she did not report to the police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. George Zimmerman drives off in the night in a pricey BMW, this as he`s finally served divorce papers.
Hey, Frank Taaffe, why did -- you`re his spokesperson.
TAAFFE: Hey.
GRACE: You`re his good friend. Why did he dodge divorce papers for so long? I mean, she had to wait for him to get arrested again before she could serve him.
TAAFFE: Well, I think the timing was appropriate. And she knew where he was, and you know, the process servers in Seminole County...
GRACE: Well, why did he dodge it? That was my question, why did he dodge service?
TAAFFE: Maybe he didn`t -- maybe he doesn`t feel like he wanted to be divorced. So what do we do as human beings? We abate (ph) or we push off what we don`t want to inevitably...
GRACE: Or we dodge the service.
OK, out to the lines. Barbara, Illinois. Hi, Barbara. What`s your question? Barbara, are you there. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m here, Nancy. I actually feel like he`s going through that stuff because he`s guilty because he got off with Trayvon Martin. I really think he should go down for this. So that`s why he`s got so much going on with him now, because he`s feeling guilty he didn`t get prosecuted with the Trayvon Martin case.
GRACE: Barbara, many people agree with you.
Out to you, psychologist Caryn Stark joining me in New York. Caryn, you`ve heard the DSM thrown a lot by Frank Taaffe. I want to go to Eleanor`s question. Would post-traumatic stress syndrome make him continue violent acts?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: It might, if that`s really what he has, Nancy. But first of all, I want to tell you it`s not a DSM-4 anymore. He keeps quoting the DSM-4, and it`s a DSM-5. And any expert in the field would be looking at the latest book, not the DSM-4. That`s number one.
Number two, how can we know if he has disruptive thoughts, if he actually is having flashbacks, all these things that Taaffe`s claiming? We really would have to interview George Zimmerman in order to know whether that`s part of his diagnosis, whether that`s there...
GRACE: Have you noticed, Caryn Stark, that there`s so many people -- I mean, I can think of those off the top of my head -- O.J., Powell, Yates, Craigslist -- that when they`re accused or even acquitted of murder, they suddenly go on suicide watch.
STARK: Well, yes. And that`s because they turn it onto themselves, very much like this guy seems to be doing. They project what they did onto someone else, and this guy is talking about his own divorce and projecting it onto Zimmerman, so...
GRACE: This, as many people would argue, is evidence of guilt.
Everybody, when we come back, after a major fight, he demands, quote, "makeup sex." She says no. And when she does, he kills her with the vacuum cleaner, then claims post-traumatic stress syndrome as a defense.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now, live, Tacoma, Washington, suburbs. After a major fight, he demands, quote, makeup sex. She says no. He kills her with the vacuum cleaner, and then claims posttraumatic stress syndrome as a defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A private first class soldier for the U.S. Army allegedly kills his live-in girlfriend with a vacuum cleaner.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 32-year-old boyfriend turned murder suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities claim he drinks a six-pack of Bud Lite, has a shot of Bacardi rum before an alleged argument takes place. Police find her body after Sanchez calls 911 to report finding his girlfriend unconscious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Losing somebody really, really, really hurts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he allegedly later admitted he hit her twice with a vacuum and dragged her down the stairs like a rag doll because she rebuffed his attempts to have makeup sex after an argument. He allegedly tells cops he has posttraumatic stress disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just devastating. Just completely devastated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So he wants makeup sex, she says no, and he kills her with the vacuum cleaner? Straight out to Michael Christian, investigative reporter. Michael, help me connect the dots here. How do you kill somebody with a vacuum cleaner?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, as you say, Nancy, there was an argument, apparently, over makeup sex. He wanted to have sex with her. She said no. He then hit her over the head, according to what he told police, with a vacuum cleaner, at least twice. Dragged her down the stairs by her legs. Now, she probably was unconscious by the time she got to the bottom of the stairs, we`re not sure. He then took her head, and pounded it, beat it several times face first into the floor, and ultimately police believe he strangled her with a t-shirt. So the cause of death here is blunt force trauma and strangulation.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Amy Burrows-Beckham, assistant medical examiner and forensic pathologist. Doctor, thank you for being with us. I see that there are two causes of death, one is blunt force trauma, which would be with the vacuum cleaner, and the other is strangulation. How do you determine which is the actual cause of death? Why are they listing two?
DR. AMY BURROWS-BECKHAM, ASSISTANT MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, sometimes we can`t always tell which of multiple types of injuries caused the death. An obvious immediate lethal injury would be an injury to the brain stem. We have to evaluate both the internal and the external injuries to see if one contributed more to the cause of death than the other. But we know that both of them certainly contributed to the demise of the patient.
GRACE: Take me through this, Clark Goldband. How did he go from makeup sex to killing her with the vacuum cleaner? Start at the beginning, please.
GOLDBAND: Sure, Nancy. According to authorities, he arrived home from work, he allegedly hears his girlfriend talking on the phone to her estranged husband, which--
GRACE: But wait a minute, weren`t they several states apart? It`s not like he was down the block.
GOLDBAND: How about the whole country, Nancy? He was 3,000 miles away in Connecticut.
GRACE: Okay. What happens then? So she`s talking to him on the phone and --
GOLDBAND: And then he`s apparently upset and says, hey, look, let`s have makeup sex. She rebuffs his advances, and that`s when the attack allegedly starts with a vacuum cleaner, at least two blows to the victim, with an upright vacuum cleaner. Then he allegedly throws the girlfriend down the whole flight of stairs like a rag doll and strangles her to death.
GRACE: You know what, Eleanor Odom, there`s nothing like your live-in sneaking up on you, on the telephone. Then fighting and arguing with you violently, because you`re talking to your ex-husband, for whatever reason, on the phone. Then he wants makeup sex. You know, did he actually think she was going to say yes?
E. ODOM: Well, Nancy, this is clear murder. No question about it, no way around it. And it`s really --
GRACE: Can we get back to, why would she say yes after he`s sneaking around -- don`t look like that, Peter. Don`t even look like you know the secret answer, you`re so smug.
P. ODOM: There is no secret answer.
GRACE: You know, handsome only takes you so far, Odom. Think about that for a minute. So, Eleanor, so he`s angry because after he`s eavesdropping on her and accuses her of God knows what, the man, the ex- husband who is 3,000 miles away, she doesn`t want to have sex with him? Of course she doesn`t want to have sex with him.
E. ODOM: Of course she doesn`t want to. If my husband was holding a vacuum cleaner, Nancy, he better be cleaning the front room. That`s all I got to say.
GRACE: He better have one end in his hand and one end on the rug.
E. ODOM: Exactly.
GRACE: OK. So why do you say it`s clear murder?
E. ODOM: Look at it. He went and got the vacuum cleaner, that takes some thought. I don`t think he was vacuuming the front room. He went and got that --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Now, he has not been accused of being a neatnik.
E. ODOM: Exactly. He`s using that as a weapon. Clearly. And then again, once he pushes her down the stairs and strangles her, it`s not like he thought to himself, I`ve got to stop. I can stop this right now. No, he went on and on with this extreme, intense anger to get to her because of that phone call. And that`s why I say it`s premeditated. He knew what he was doing, he went after her.
GRACE: All right, Peter, let`s have it. I know where this is going. Go ahead.
P. ODOM: His defense isn`t, I didn`t know what I was doing, his defense is posttraumatic stress disorder. Now, I will grant you that mental defenses, insanity, posttraumatic stress disorders, they`re often -- let me finish. They`re often raised and rarely work.
(CROSSTALK)
P. ODOM: Let me finish. They are often raised and they rarely work. And you know that most people that raise these things--
GRACE: Why don`t you just tell the truth. It`s not true. Just boil it down.
P. ODOM: However, when they work, it`s because there`s a well- documented history of posttraumatic stress disorder. Now, this guy is a veteran, he`s a soldier. The first thing I want to look at--
GRACE: Don`t disgrace all the vets out there by using that. Don`t drag them through the dump, please.
P. ODOM: I`m stating a fact, Nancy. Whether you like it or not, those are the facts. He`s a veteran.
GRACE: So? He`s a veteran.
P. ODOM: The first thing you want to look at as a defense attorney, is, is there a documented history of mental illness? If there is, then there might be something to this defense. And it`s something that shouldn`t just be pooh-poohed.
GRACE: C.W. Jensen, retired police captain. He admits he hit her twice with the vacuum cleaner, dragged her down the steps by her legs, smashed her head on the floor. How does this fit in with a post-traumatic stress syndrome defense?
CW JENSEN, RETIRED POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, you know, I could care less about his defense. I mean, as an investigator, this guy came home, he was drinking, he was mad, he was angry at her, and he killed her, because of that.
Now, it`s left to the attorneys to decide, and the doctors, to decide if posttraumatic stress disorder made him that kind of a jerk. How did that add in with the booze? Maybe he was a jerk beforehand. Maybe the PTSD took him over the edge. I just don`t want any of your viewers to dismiss the fact that there`s police officers and medical workers and there`s soldiers that have this horrible, horrible disorder, and I can tell you, it`s awful. Whether he had it or not. Hey, I had it! You know what I did? I just got divorced. I didn`t hit my wife with a vacuum cleaner. And I also did vacuum the floors every now and then.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A young mother allegedly beaten with a vacuum cleaner, dragged down a flight of stairs and strangled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And her boyfriend made a frantic call to 911 about 4:00 a.m., saying Angela was unresponsive and needed help.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her boyfriend, a private first class in the U.S. Army, charged with murder. And police say it was all because the victim refused to have sex with him. Authorities say the man drank a six-pack of beer and a shot of rum before an argument. He allegedly tells cops he has posttraumatic stress disorder.
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GRACE: I can only hope they get an all-female jury. Out to Christina in Florida. Hi, Christine, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, love your show. I just want to say that I think PTSD is like the easiest excuse for this guy to have played. Although I do feel horrible for veterans who genuinely suffer from PTSD, but at what point do we, as a society, say that`s no excuse for being so violent and off the wall? I`m sure a six-pack of beer and a shot of rum didn`t help either. This story is just completely unbelievable.
GRACE: So he sneaks up on her, eavesdropping on her conversation, accuses her of God only knows what, starts a fight, downs a six-pack and a short of tequila, demands makeup sex, and then beats her to death with the vacuum cleaner. Okay! There`s your scenario, Peter Odom, what was your defense again?
P. ODOM: The defense he has raised is posttraumatic stress disorder. And the first thing you want to look at is, is there anything to it? Was he under such stress that it drove him over the age?
GRACE: OK. Eleanor, what about the six-pack and the shot of tequila. How does that fit in with posttraumatic stress syndrome?
E. ODOM: I don`t think it does, Nancy. It doesn`t at all. There is no history of mental illness for this man. Peter keeps talking about let`s get the history. There isn`t one, Nancy.
GRACE: There is none.
E. ODOM: He committed an act of violence.
GRACE: OK. Michael Christian, investigative reporter. Let me get this straight. What exactly did he tell, Gio Sanchez, tell police after he was arrested?
CHRISTIAN: The story changed a couple of times. Originally he said he was upstairs sleeping and he found her at the bottom of the stairs dead.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Please put Michael Christian back up. Michael?
CHRISTIAN: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: So he`s asleep?
CHRISTIAN: That`s what he said first.
GRACE: Somebody sneaks into the house and beats her to death with a vacuum cleaner and leaves her body at the bottom of the stairs.
CHRISTIAN: That was where he originally said he found her.
GRACE: That was his first story.
CHRISTIAN: He found her that way. Then later on his story morphed, well, maybe he`d been sleeping on the couch, but he finally admitted that he hit her and he dragged her down the stairs. There was apparently blood everywhere. Her body was nude. I believe he probably took her clothes off. He was nude from the waist down. He had blood all over.
GRACE: Whoa, wait a minute! Wait, this is the first time hearing. So when the cops get there, he`s naked from the waist down? That`s a lovely sight. How did she get naked? She refused sex? What, did he rape her?
CHRISTIAN: We don`t know for sure. We don`t think there`s any evidence of sexual contact. At least we haven`t heard any. Perhaps he took her clothes off to get rid of the bloody clothes. We`re not sure. I think there was some (inaudible) in the laundromat.
GRACE: Michael Christian, do you have any experience with a dead body, at all?
CHRISTIAN: Personally?
GRACE: I hope not.
CHRISTIAN: No. I`m happy to say, no.
GRACE: Have you ever tried to clothe or unclothe dead weight? It ain`t easy, Michael Christian.
CHRISTIAN: It wouldn`t be. Although it would be easier--
GRACE: Which means what, that he tried a sex attack.
(CROSSTALK)
CHRISTIAN: It would be easier to get her clothes off than get them on.
GRACE: Look, I dress two twins every morning, that`s hard enough. OK. Eleanor, what this says to me is that he tried to sexually molest her before he killed her.
E. ODOM: Oh, yes.
GRACE: I think that was him asking for makeup sex was an attempt to rape.
E. ODOM: Exactly, Nancy. Plus, the strangulation with that, that really shows that sexual element.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls. Very quickly, Caryn Stark, is posttraumatic stress syndrome going to work?
STARK: I can`t imagine that it can, Nancy, and I want to say something. The reason we hear about it so much these days is it tends to be en vogue. Different diagnoses become popular within the culture, and everybody says they`re suffering from them. And so now everybody is talking about posttraumatic stress syndrome. But he was not in treatment, and he`s aggressive. He was drinking, over the top. I don`t see that this is posttraumatic stress at all. I think he`s violent.
GRACE: Everybody, when we come back, they rape, they child molest, they murder. A few get sent to death row. Tonight, death row investigations. Outrage! Death row inmates, wild partying on death row.
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GRACE: They rape, they child molest, they murder. A few get sent to death row. Tonight, death row investigations. Outrage. Death row inmates, wild partying on death row. With us, special guest, death penalty expert, law professor, author of "The Death of Punishment," Robert Blecker is with us live tonight and taking your calls.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t care what anybody else is here for.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coffee. Pickle in a pouch. So there are several hundred, a few couple of hundred books here, I would say. Wouldn`t you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you (inaudible)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I wanted to make sure I received a life without parole sentence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Robert Blecker, author of "The Death of Punishment," professor at New York Law School. Robert, thank you so much for being with us. When I saw
When I saw the video that you had uncovered, I was revulsed, because let`s see some of the video. Here`s Robert Peet (ph), serving life without parole at Tourney (ph) correctional institute facility in Tennessee. Are they playing in a band? What`s the name of that band?
ROBERT BLECKER, AUTHOR: The Death Puppies. But this actually isn`t Peet. Yes, this is the band -- one of the bands at the Tourney center rehearsing. I happened to wander into their rehearsal. If you heard it, if you had sound attachment, you`d hear it`s just hard rock. They drove me from the rehearsal space. There we go.
These are all prisoners, of course.
GRACE: Okay. Death row inmates, you said their name were, what, the Death Puppies?
BLECKER: This actually isn`t death row, Nancy, this is the Tourney center.
GRACE: That`s the life without parole?
BLECKER: You can get transferred to it if you`re perfectly behaved once you`re inside. You wouldn`t start out there, but you can get there, which of course is part of the point of the whole book.
GRACE: You know, Robert, your new book is an incredible work, "The Death of Punishment" by professor Robert Blecker. Also, you have managed to uncover video of inmates, what, playing baseball in brand-new baseball uniforms?
BLECKER: Yes, I couldn`t believe it. As you`ll see, they`re in uniform, but it`s not prison uniforms. It`s baseball uniforms. And lined base pads and umpires in uniform with guys hanging out, getting a sun tan. And it feels like your everyday baseball game, only part of that team are convicted murderers who have managed to make it to this best part of Riverbend maximum security prison. Unit six. It`s appalling those who have committed the worst crimes if they are well behaved once they are inside, often live the best lifestyles. So lifestyles for the lifers.
GRACE: You know, Robert, I`ve heard so many people that life behind bars is worse than death. That is not true.
BLECKER: Well, you vote with your hands and you vote with your feet. The fact is they can make weapons out of anything and everything. They have the ability to do it, yet they don`t turn it on themselves. The suicide rate among lifers is extraordinarily low. And of course it`s no surprise. Because in many situations, they`re out of their cells for hours a day, they get first-run movies piped into their cells, and in community rec situations. They have a commissary that rivals some of the best stores, and life assumes a new normalcy. And they make friendships, and they have camaraderie, and they play. I`m not saying I want to spend my life doing that, but then again I didn`t rape and murder children. I wasn`t a hired killer, et cetera, et cetera.
GRACE: Justin Freiman, you have gone through hours and hours of Robert Blecker`s video. What did you see?
FREIMAN: One of the most shocking things I saw was a death row inmate`s cell. It looked nicer than a lot of kids` room. He had art supplies, he had food, he has a television in his cell. Self-baked cookies, Skittles, cheese, you are looking at it now. This is not a general room. This is his cell on death row.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wake up, you know, I clean myself, my cellie usually goes to work. And I don`t go to work until 1:00. So I`ve got the cell to myself, watch "who wants to be a millionaire?" Try to answer the questions. Then I go to work. I work on the line in the kitchen. I end up going back to the cells, take a shower, go in, and watch some primetime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`ve got the place to myself. I watch "who wants to be a millionaire?" I try to answer the questions.
Dr. Robert Blecker, joining me, professor at New York Law School, has just come out with "The Death of Punishment." I watch "Who Wants to be a Millionaire? I try to answer the questions? This guy`s name is James Haroquait (ph). Who did he kill? I`m afraid to ask.
BLECKER: Many years before, when he was much younger, he sexually molested and killed a 14- or 15-year-old boy, was sentenced to life in prison, was later paroled I think on the seventh try, got out and murdered again.
By the way, he considers himself middle class. He said that inside the prisons, there`s the lower class, the middle class, the upper class, and he considers himself middle class. Although he did have complaints. He doesn`t get a chance to watch -- this is in Illinois. He doesn`t get a chance to watch the Cubs as much as he would like nor the Bulls, because sometimes his work detail conflicted with their playing schedule.
GRACE: Everyone, "The Death of Punishment" by professor Robert Blecker. You can find it on our website at HLN and at nancygrace.com, if you dare to read it.
Dr. Blecker, you`ve devoted yourself to this. Thank you for being with us. Please, join us again. Everyone, "The death of Punishment," you can find it online. By Professor Robert Blecker.
Let`s stop and remember, American hero Army Staff Sergeant Christopher Stout, 34, Worthville, Kentucky. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation, loved singing and preaching. Parents Billy and Sharon, widow Misty, daughters Jacqueline, Adriana and Kristin. Christopher Stout, American hero.
Tonight, a special good night from friends Sandy and Betsy. Aren`t they beautiful? Drew is up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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