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Nancy Grace
George Zimmerman Claims He Was Set Up
Aired November 25, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, off the top, live, Orlando suburbs. After 17-year-old Trayvon Martin gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch, George Zimmerman, in a jury trial that nearly splits the courtroom wide open with a not guilty verdict, Zimmerman walks free. Zimmerman back in court when his live-in lover claims she`s in fear for her own life after he points a shotgun straight at her face.
Bombshell tonight. In a stunning new development, as we go to air, we learn Zimmerman faces off with police, demanding his weapons and iPhone back, also insisting it was all a setup. Yes, George Zimmerman now claiming he was set up by a lying and vengeful girlfriend.
Not only that, the man who told the court he was rock-bottom broke, George Zimmerman, dumps his public defender and in the last hours, hires a pricey new lawyer.
Will it never end with this guy? Just what we don`t need, George Zimmerman walking free with more weapons.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury find George Zimmerman not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says after this verdict was rendered, he became very distraught, very depressed. At times, he felt invincible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You just broke my glass table! You just broke my sunglasses! And you put your gun in my freakin` face and told me to get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out. This is not your house. No. Get out of here!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had anger management and he successfully completed that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has been charged with aggravated assault.
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, CHARGED WITH AGGRAVATED ASSAULT: I don`t have anything to say.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was in fear for her safety. On the day of this incident, she had indicated that they had been discussing breaking up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s at my house breaking up my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) stuff. I asked him to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George, you want to defend yourself?
ZIMMERMAN: I just want everyone to know the truth.
Can I call my attorney?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also under investigation tonight, live to Red Oak, Oklahoma, an entire family disappears, vanishing into thin air. Tonight, are they victims of a cult?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... trying to solve a mystery, Bobby Jamison, his wife, Sheralyn (ph), and their 6-year-old daughter, Madison (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dense trees and hilly terrain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the most part, pretty rugged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... worried why a family of three would disappear in such a tough part of the countryside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their pickup truck was found eight days after they were reported missing. Their dog, Maizie (ph), was still inside, barely alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also inside the truck were the family`s IDs, wallets and a substantial amount of cash.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Starlet Jamison (ph) says she suspects they did not simply get lost.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something happened. All of their things, their cell phones and their cameras -- everything was in the truck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also tonight, outrage, live, Danvers, Massachusetts suburbs. A beautiful and popular 24-year-old math teacher found dead, her throat slit. Suspect, a 14-year-old little boy thought to be a quiet and withdrawn student in Ms. Ritzer`s algebra class.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the face of an accused killer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why someone would do this to someone that was so nice!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators in Massachusetts allege 14-year-old Philip Chism killed popular 24-year-old math teacher Colleen Ritzer at Danvers High School.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Surveillance video shows Colleen Ritzer`s 14- year-old student, Philip Chism, following Ritzer into the bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... video surveillance at the school that he had assaulted and then murdered Ritzer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I walked by there 15 minutes later, what could have happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Danvers police initiated a search for the teacher and discovered blood in the second floor bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ritzer`s body was later found in the woods behind the school next to a handwritten note that read "I hate you all."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s quiet, just kept to himself, nothing that out of the ordinary, just a quiet, normal kid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found with a blood-stained box cutter, a pair of Ritzer`s underwear and credit cards in his backpack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the furthest thing from reality for me to believe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why would anyone, let alone a student, want to kill her?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Off the top, live to Orlando, stunning new development. As we go to air, we learn George Zimmerman faces off with police, demanding his weapons and iPhone back, also publicly insisting it was all a setup. Yes, George Zimmerman is now claiming he was set up by a lying and vengeful girlfriend.
Also, remember just last week, he told the court he was broke, he had no money, that he was $2.5 million in debt. But tonight, we learn he dumps his public defender and hires a pricey new private lawyer. That`s what`s going on with George Zimmerman.
Out to you, Frank Taaffe, friend of George Zimmerman. Why does he want his knives, his weapons, his iPhone back? Why? Why does he need weapons again? Hasn`t he learned his lesson?
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Well, he -- well, he needs to stay in communication with his other friends. And you`ve got to understand he hasn`t been convicted of any laws, and you know, this is like deja vu all over again. And let me -- let me also comment on these women...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait! Did you just say -- hold on. I think I`ve got a problem with my ear, Taaffe. Did you just say deja vu? Because that`s what I was thinking when I found out he pulled a gun on another unarmed person, a Kel-Tec gun...
TAAFFE: Hey...
GRACE: ... just like when he shot Trayvon Martin, now he did it to his unarmed girlfriend?
TAAFFE: Well, that...
GRACE: Now he`s blaming the girlfriend, saying she set him up. For what? Why would she set him up?
TAAFFE: Well, she was looking for a pot of gold from George. Instead, she found George`s pot belly. And I think this is like deja vu all over again. And they`re all opportunistic. And you know, Nancy, it was reported in a local TV affiliate here, the Friday before the incident that happened that Monday, that her and her mom reached out to certain networks, looking for compensation for an interview. Due to the fact that her -- that the family...
GRACE: Can I ask you something?
TAAFFE: Yes.
GRACE: We`re not asking you about the mom and the girlfriend, all right?
TAAFFE: But it`s all connected.
GRACE: Your guy is...
TAAFFE: It`s all connected.
GRACE: ... taking on the police, trying to get his weapons back. I don`t like it.
Out to Diane in Pennsylvania.
TAAFFE: He`s innocent!
GRACE: Hi, Diane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello ,there, Nancy Grace.
GRACE: What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Love your show. First of all...
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... he has no money, he fires the public defender. It`s, like, isn`t it time to say good-bye to him and not give him all this publicity? Because it seems like he`s just an attention getter.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Heather Hansen, defense attorney out of New York. Also with me, Darryl Cohen, a flamboyant defense attorney, former prosecutor. Darryl Cohen, the case where he allegedly pulls the gun on his girlfriend, points it right at her face, a long gun, a shotgun -- just curiosity. Have you ever had a shotgun pointed right at your face?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have not...
GRACE: I have not, either.
COHEN: ... and I have no desire for that to happen.
GRACE: I have not, either. But since that case is not over yet, he doesn`t have a right to have any of those items back under the law. He has no right for any of that.
COHEN: Well, he certainly has a right to get his iPhone back. He certainly has...
GRACE: Why?
COHEN: ... a right to get his other items...
GRACE: What if it has evidence on it?
COHEN: Well, if it`s got evidence on it, find it. If it`s got -- what, he`s got his own DNA?
GRACE: No. How do I know he didn`t take photos? How do I know he didn`t take a video?
COHEN: Well, they can figure it out, Nancy. It`s not that difficult to open up an iPhone.
GRACE: That`s right. So why should he get it back until the investigation is over? Look, just be straight, please. Don`t toe the party line with me because you and I have tried enough cases to know a defendant doesn`t get their stuff back until the case is over.
COHEN: Not...
GRACE: That`s the truth.
COHEN: Not if the stuff is related to the crime, but an iPhone? What could it possibly be?
GRACE: Well, I just told you.
COHEN: Is there something on the iPhone? Let the police look at it.
GRACE: Out to you, Deborah Roberts, anchor, Florida News Network. The last time he had a dust-up, let me say euphemistically, with the law was just in September with the wife, Shellie. In that case, isn`t it true, Deborah Roberts, that one of them videoed something on the iPad? They were fighting over the iPad?
DEBORAH ROBERTS, FLORIDA NEWS NETWORK (via telephone): Yes, actually. Shellie Zimmerman was reportedly filming George. There are some reports they were filming each other because they were picking up items due to their pending divorce. However, it had just been broken last week, the news was broken that they could not retrieve any of the video off of that iPad.
GRACE: Well, my question is about the iPad. Deborah Roberts with me, Florida News Network. And the significance of that, Heather Hansen -- well, you know, hold on, Heather.
Back to you, Taaffe, Frank Taaffe, spokesperson for George Zimmerman. Here`s a grown man with a long gun. The girlfriend is totally defenseless. He allegedly...
TAAFFE: Nancy, if you look -- Nancy...
GRACE: ... puts a shotgun in her face, and they`re videoing each other.
TAAFFE: Listen, Nancy, if someone points a gun at you, aren`t you running out of the house, or are you staying there talking to the po-po? (sic) What are you doing? I`m exiting. If a girl points a gun at me, or a guy, I`m leaving. I`m booking it. I`m not giving them a play-by-play like Howard Cosell on "Monday Night Football," and you know I love football.
GRACE: No, I don`t know anything about you personally, Taaffe. Let me ask you this. Is it true...
TAAFFE: You know I`m smart.
GRACE: ... that he and his wife, Shellie, were videoing each other as they were dividing up the property?
TAAFFE: Yes. No.
GRACE: OK...
TAAFFE: She was following him around the house with the iPad as she was inventorying the merchandise that they had bought together. And the iPad was smashed, and the FBI could not help the local law enforcement agency piece it together. So that case is gone. It`s over with.
GRACE: OK, my point is -- Michael Christian, investigative reporter - - Michael, we`ve covered a lot of cases together. The point is, I don`t care about the iPad. That was in the last alleged assault. The point is, Michael Christian, that he and Shellie were, let me say, videoing each other during a fight over property.
Well, this fight with this last girlfriend, where he allegedly pulls a shotgun in her face, they were fighting over the property. She tells him to get out. He`s angry. They`re fighting over their belongings and who`s going to move out.
How do I know he wasn`t recording her on that iPhone? Why should he get his iPhone back, much less weapons, Michael? I don`t want to give George Zimmerman any more weapons.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, in the motion that he`s filed, Nancy, he again says that that has nothing to do with the case. It`s just not any kind of evidence in this case. However, that motion was filed by his original attorney, his public defender. We`ll see now that he has a new attorney, Jayne Weintraub, on the case whether that motion will continue, whether she`ll renew it, whether it will be turned down. We just don`t know.
GRACE: Well, you know...
CHRISTIAN: But again, he`s claiming it had nothing...
GRACE: I`m glad you brought that up, Michael.
CHRISTIAN: ... to do with the case.
GRACE: I`m glad you brought that up. It`s Jayne Weintraub. She`s a renowned defense attorney. And let me tell you, she don`t come cheap, Michael Christian.
CHRISTIAN: No. She...
GRACE: She is not cheap. Now, wasn`t it just last week he was poor- mouthing, he was saying that he was $2.5 million in debt, he was indigent? Didn`t he just say that?
CHRISTIAN: Yes, and he also at that point that his contact was through Mark O`Mara, who had been his attorney with the Trayvon Martin case. So there`s three lawyers at least tangentially involved in this case, although we do know that Jayne Weintraub is now going to be his main attorney...
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers...
CHRISTIAN: ... in this particular case.
GRACE: ... Heather Hansen, Darryl Cohen. Heather Hansen, when you go in front of a judge -- let`s see both the lawyers, please. When you go before a judge and you claim indigency, that you want the public defender, you have to sign documents stating that you`re broke and what your net worth is and what your assets, you`ve got a car, whatever you have. If he filled those out and he was lying, he`s stone cold in the water perjury.
HEATHER HANSEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But Nancy, you`re assuming that Jayne is charging him. It could very well be that she`s doing this pro bono.
GRACE: That`s true.
HANSEN: It could very well be that she`s doing it and maybe looking to be paid at some later time. So...
GRACE: Can I ask you a question, Heather?
HANSEN: Absolutely.
GRACE: Do you know many lawyers that take on felony cases for free? I didn`t ask you, Cohen. Quit shaking your head.
HANSEN: A case with this type of publicity, absolutely, Nancy, and...
GRACE: Who? Name one.
HANSEN: Jayne Weintraub.
GRACE: No. Name one lawyer that you know of took on case for free.
HANSEN: I absolutely know lawyers who have (INAUDIBLE) pro bono.
GRACE: Who?
HANSEN: Myself. I do child cases for pro bono.
GRACE: For publicity.
HANSEN: Absolutely not. I do cases pro bono.
GRACE: That`s what I asked you. I mean, all lawyers, if they`ve got a decent bone in their body, have done a pro bono case. But you just said, took this case free for the publicity. One lawyer, if you could tell me one that you know took a case for free for publicity reasons.
HANSEN: I can`t tell you one that has (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: OK, great. All right.
Everybody, we are live and taking your calls. So Taaffe, why is your guy telling the court last week that he was $2.5 million in debt? Did he sign any documents? Because now he`s dumped his public defender and he has hired a pricey new lawyer, a very well-known lawyer.
TAAFFE: Well, sure. Before the court assigns any public defender, you have to fill out your financials before the court. And the judge then decides. So he was appointed a public defender. That was of last week. So I`m sure Ms. Weintraub -- we don`t know the terms of the agreement, and according to your last lawyer, it`s all about -- it`s all about ego.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you serious?
911 OPERATOR: 911. Do you need police, fire or medical?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need police right now.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what`s your address?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re the one that`s breaking stuff in my house!
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am? Ma`am, what`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s in my house breaking all my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) because I asked him to leave. He has his freakin` gun, breaking all of my stuff right now. No. This is not...
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m doing this again? You just broke my glass table! You just broke my sunglasses, and you put your gun in my freakin` face!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, maybe it is deja vu all over again. Off the top, George Zimmerman now faces off with police, demanding he gets his weapons and iPhones back, claims he was set up by a lying and vengeful girlfriend, and now dumps his public defender and hires a pricey new defense attorney, Jayne Weintraub.
Out to Greg Cason, psychologist and star of bravo`s "LA Shrinks." Greg, you know, it takes a certain kind of mentality to walk free on the Trayvon Martin shooting case, number one, and then hardly any time passes before police have been called on you again by your wife, and now allegedly pointing a shotgun at a girlfriend.
But today really is the icing on the cake, Greg. He has the gull to go to the court and demand that he get weapons and iPhones back. Why should we give George Zimmerman a weapon?
GREG CASON, PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, I`m firmly of the belief that guns may not kill people, but people with guns kill people. And George Zimmerman has already proved himself to have murdered somebody, even though he was acquitted, but he`s already killed somebody. So I don`t think it`s a good idea to give someone like that a weapon, whether it`s legally allowable or not.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: Hey, we`ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there`s a real suspicious guy...
911 OPERATOR: What happened today? What made you guys start fighting?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I asked him to leave.
(INAUDIBLE) the Kel-Tec, the shotgun. He took that (ph) case, smashed my table and smashed my sunglasses and smashed whatever the hell else he`s smashing in there right now while I`m outside.
ZIMMERMAN: Now he`s staring at me.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. We are live and taking your calls. Off the top, to the Orlando suburbs. George Zimmerman just can`t stay out of the headlines. Now he`s facing off with police, demanding he get his weapons and iPhones back, declaring that it was all a setup, that an evil, lying and vengeful girlfriend made the whole scenario up, and dumps his public defender. Now he`s got a pricey new defense attorney. Just last week, he claimed he was $2.5 million in debt.
Out to Deborah Roberts, anchor with Florida News Network. Deborah, I hardly believe the claim that this was all a setup. Explain the claim, Deborah. I don`t understand it.
ROBERTS: Well, apparently, he says the vengeful girlfriend who was just out to make money on his good name is the one who set up this whole scenario about him allegedly pointing...
GRACE: His good name?
ROBERTS: Yes. You know, he says that she set it up, and she set up the story about the gun in her face, that that didn`t really happen. He`s pled not guilty to the charge of aggravated assault with a weapon and a few others.
GRACE: Well, didn`t they seize -- didn`t they seize a long gun that day? Didn`t he have a shotgun?
ROBERTS: Yes, they did, and he does have a history. But still, George Zimmerman and his cohorts are claiming that this is all the act of a woman with an ax to grind and a dollar to earn.
GRACE: OK, out to you, Taaffe. Explain to me how he`s going to make -- how she, the girlfriend, is going to make money off his, quote, "good name"? Don`t you have to have a good reputation before you can lose it?
TAAFFE: Well, let`s face it, he hasn`t been convicted of anything. And so far, you know, these women, it`s all scripted.
GRACE: You know, will you quit bragging?
TAAFFE: It`s all scripted.
GRACE: Like if you don`t have...
TAAFFE: It`s all scripted!
GRACE: You know, OK...
TAAFFE: Listen to the 911 call!
GRACE: ... Simpson had a not guilty...
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: Shellie says he`s grabbing his gun, he`s holding his gun. She says he`s pointing the gun. Every call, there`s a gun involved, but yet there are no...
GRACE: No what?
TAAFFE: ... corroborating evidence to nail him.
GRACE: He had a gun when the cops got there? Would that work?
TAAFFE: Yes, but it was locked up. It was locked up. So they had to take it into evidence.
GRACE: OK, you know what? Out to you, Darryl Cohen, to show a setup like this, this would be tantamount to some sort of, I don`t know, would you say framing? That`s a felony in itself. If she`s setting him up to go to jail, and it`s all a big lie, she herself could go to jail for that. I don`t believe it.
COHEN: Certainly, she could go to jail. But Nancy, don`t you think it`s telling that she`s not going to give an interview unless she`s paid? This woman wants...
GRACE: Nobody has ever told me that...
COHEN: ... wants P-U-B-L-I-C-I-T-Y.
GRACE: ... except Frank Taaffe. I have never heard that, except for Taaffe.
COHEN: All this is, is publicity. I don`t think she wants...
GRACE: Publicity for what?
COHEN: ... his good name. She is looking to make a killing and not do a killing.
GRACE: OK. Yes, I don`t know what that -- you`re not Johnnie Cochran, all right? So stop with the rhymes.
COHEN: No gloves.
GRACE: OK? Stop with the rhymes. She has nothing to gain but a lot of press chasing her down the street. She`s practically in hiding. She`s not making any money. We`ve never been told, our show has never been told, Pay us money or we won`t talk. I`ve never been told that by her. I don`t believe that.
Wouldn`t there be some sort of an e-mail or a text trail by the girlfriend or her family? And I don`t know of one that exists.
COHEN: You just wait. You wait and see what happens.
GRACE: Just wait.
COHEN: This woman is going to look for...
GRACE: OK. I`m waiting.
COHEN: ... a big paycheck.
GRACE: I`m waiting.
COHEN: Don`t wait too long.
GRACE: I know one thing, don`t give Zimmerman any weapons back, please!
When we come back, an entire family disappears, vanishing into thin air. Tonight, are they victims of a cult?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live tonight, under investigation, to Red Oak, Oklahoma. An entire family of three disappears, vanishing into thin air. Tonight, are they victims of a cult?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of sleepless nights not knowing where they were or what happened to them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were up here looking for property when they disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI, OSBI and several other state agencies are all working on the case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arla Jamieson (ph) says she suspects they did not simply get lost.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something happened. All of their things, their cell phones, their cameras -- everything was in the truck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What a story. An entire family disappearing, and now relatives firmly believe a cult is responsible for the family`s disappearance. Out to Russell Mills, reporter, KRMG.
Russell, thank you for being with us. A whole family, mom, dad, son, gone. Mysteriously vanishing. Tonight, is a cult to blame? Tell me who is this alleged cult and why do we think they may be to blame?
RUSSELL MILLS, KRMG: I know that the family has been talking about that, that they believe there is some sort of religious involvement. I do know that when the family disappeared in October of 2009, there was some graffiti that was found on their house up in northeastern Oklahoma near a town call Eufaula (ph) along Grand Lake that indicated possibly some involvement with witchcraft or with the occult, and also we had some information that they had talked to a pastor about that, but as far as any active cults in the area, you know, in talking to --
GRACE: Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let`s find out about the cults. Out to Justin Freiman, our producer on the story. Justin, what do we know about possible cult involvement?
FREIMAN: Nancy, the mother of one of the missing says that she`s thought from the very beginning that somebody killed the family, and that a cult is involved.
GRACE: Justin, repeat?
FREIMAN: The mother of one of the missing family members said that she believes a cult was involved, that this family was killed. She says her daughter was on some sort of a hit list maintained by a unnamed religious cult operating in that Oklahoma area.
GRACE: So the whole theory about them disappearing and a cult being responsible is because of family members. Correct, Justin?
FREIMAN: Yep. That`s correct. Also that pastor had some things to say that were of great concern.
GRACE: What do you mean? What did the pastor have to say?
FREIMAN: He told some local reporters that the family was engaged in spiritual warfare with ghosts living at their lake house, and he said that the family was seeking quote, "special bullets" to do battle with spirits, and had been reading a Satanic Bible.
GRACE: OK. We know that their abandoned GMC pickup truck has been found. It`s been found in late October by local hunters. Take a look at this happy family. You`ve got Bobby Jamison, Cherilyn Jamison and their little boy, 6-year-old Madison Jamison. This all occurred near Red Oak, Oklahoma, in San Bois (ph) mountains. It is northern Latimer County, about 35 miles from their home in Eufaula. Everyone, the Jamison family missing, tip line, 918-465-2161. Joining me right now, special guest, Gary Perkinson, the P.I.O. of the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. Sir, thank you for being with us.
GARY PERKINSON, PIO, OKLAHOMA STATE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Tell me about the conditions surrounding the family`s disappearance.
PERKINSON: Well, what I can tell you is that on October 17th of 2009, is when their GMC pickup was located. And when the investigation began initially by the Latimer County sheriff`s office, they wanted to conduct a search and conduct an investigation, and they subsequently asked for the FBI`s assistance as well as the O.S.B.I. The investigation was initiated. The search of the pickup was done. Items from the pickup were collected.
GRACE: What was in the car, Officer? What was in the car? With me, Gary Perkinson from the Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation. What items were in the car?
PERKINSON: There were items of clothing. Just a sweatshirt, shoes. A cell phone. Things like that. Also a --
GRACE: I understand there was money in there.
PERKINSON: Yes.
GRACE: There was money?
PERKINSON: Yes, there was.
GRACE: So, then, robbery would not have been the motive, if their cell phones and money were in the car. Was there anything suspicious about the car?
PERKINSON: Not really, Nancy. The -- as I understand it, the pickup was in operating condition. There wasn`t any sign of damage to the vehicle that looked fresh or anything usual about the truck. One of the biggest questions that we have right now is, is why did they leave that truck? And -- and where did they go?
GRACE: Where did you find it? What type of terrain?
PERKINSON: That area where, at least where the remains were found or where the pickup was found?
GRACE: Where the pickup was found?
PERKINSON: My information, is that it`s on a dirt road near the San Bois mountains. So that would be a fairly rough terrain area.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Shawndrea (ph) in Ohio. Hi, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: My question is, has anyone checked into the pastor story and maybe his background or anything?
GRACE: Good question. The story by the pastor. To Russell Mills, KRMG. Is it true that they claim they had spoken to their pastor, that they were doing spiritual warfare?
MILLS: That is the reporting that we`ve had from -- from that area, from law enforcement in that area, and also there was some reports of some odd behavior on the parts of the Jamisons and their daughter Madison. There apparently is a security videotape that was taken inside the house where they would just sit there and sort of stare off into space for hours at a time. So there was some odd behavior going on up there. And I did read some accounts, I`ve not spoken with the pastor, but I did read some accounts where he was talking about the family engaging in what he called spiritual warfare. And again, we do have reports of some odd graffiti and some writings up there on that property in Eufaula.
GRACE: Right. Everybody, you are taking a look at the Jamison family. The young girl, Madison, just 6 years old. Parents, Bobby and Cherilyn. We are taking your calls. With us, cult expert Rick Ross.
Rick, Cherilyn`s mother is convinced a cult is responsible for the family`s disappearance. What do you think?
RICK ROSS, CULT EXPERT: Well, Nancy, in my experience, and I`ve dealt with families struggling with a cult problem for many years. They -- the family would know the name of the group. They would know the name of the leader. And when families have a problem with a particular cult, they can identify that cult, and the mother`s kind of ambiguous reference to would- be Satanic cult, it`s not very specific, and the idea that there would be Satanic cult activity in one particular part of Oklahoma, you know, it isn`t specific enough. It`s vague, and it seems to me --
GRACE: But is their disappearance, is it consistent with a cult activity for the whole family to just disappear and no one knows what happened?
ROSS: No. Nancy, that is absolutely not consistent with a family dealing with a cult. There would be a process of family estrangement, there would be knowledge of the family of the cult group, and the entire family disappearing like that, it isn`t consistent with my experience dealing with cults.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family was last seen in this part of the county.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bobby Jamison brought his wife Sherylin and their 6-year-old daughter Madison to this remote area looking for peace and quiet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looks like they got out and that`s it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There simply is no obvious reason why they disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn`t take their coats, they didn`t take their cell phones. Of course, they didn`t take their dog.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. An entire family goes missing. Red Oak, Oklahoma. Take a look. There`s mom, dad and baby girl. It is Bobby, Sherylin and Madison Jamison. On their home when they disappeared spray painting was found in apparently Satanic language. Take a look at mom. Her family insists a cult was involved in the family`s disappearance.
Out to special guest joining us tonight. Marc Klaas. President and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Mark, what do you make of the claim a cult is responsible for this family`s disappearance?
MARK KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think that your last guest made a great analysis, and I think if that were true, there would be some kind of -- there would be some telltale signs as to who that cult was and there don`t seem to be any.
I`ll tell you what I think is much more possible. Now, as I understand it, he was -- he had been spending quite some time looking for land in that area, and that there was a considerable amount of money with them when the truck was found. So I suspect that the possibility exists they were just scouting locations for land to purchase, and at some point came upon a criminal enterprise. Either a pot farm or a meth lab, and they were simply killed to hide that evidence.
GRACE: Everyone, we are learning that remains have been found about three miles from their vehicle. To Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner and forensic pathologist, joining me out of Columbia, South Carolina. Doctor, I`d like to hear your analysis of what we could learn from the remains.
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes. It`s going to depend a lot on obviously the condition of those remains, but oftentimes even if they are simply skeletal remains, we can determine a cause of death if there are injuries on the bone. We may also be able to tell other types of information, if there`s any trace evidence around. Any kind of things like that.
GRACE: And question -- what other evidence could be recovered around their bodies, Michelle?
DUPRE: There may be signs that the suspects left. Things that may have their DNA on them or even perhaps fingerprints, depending on how long it`s actually been. There may be still DNA left.
GRACE: To Gary Perkinson, the P.I.O of Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. Gary, again, thank you for being with us.
PERKINSON: Thank you.
GRACE: How far from the vehicle, from their GMC pickup, were the remains found?
PERKINSON: The remains were found about 2.7 miles northwest of where the Jamison pickup was located in 2009.
GRACE: Everyone, tip line. 918-465-2161. 918-465-2161. An entire family goes missing. Their GMC pickup found in a remote location, but no sign of the mother, father and baby girl.
When we come back, a beautiful and popular 24-year-old math teacher, found dead. Throat slit. Suspect, a 14-year-old little boy, thought to be a quiet and withdrawn student in Ms. Ritzer`s algebra class.
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GRACE: Tonight, outrage. We go live, Danvers, Massachusetts, suburbs. A beautiful and popular 24-year-old math teacher found dead, her throat slit. Suspect, a 14-year-old little boy thought to be a quiet and withdrawn student in Mrs. Ritzer`s algebra class.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still more questions than answers as to what made 14-year-old Philip Chism allegedly kill his math teacher Colleen Ritzer with a box cutter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw Ms. Ritzer standing at her desk, computer, smiling at me. And then I saw Philip slouching in his chair, staring at me (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Ritzer had been raped with an object.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He dumped her body in the woods behind the school`s athletic field.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Students reported Chism getting visibly upset the day before, during a conversation in which Ritzer started talking about Tennessee, a place Chism used to live with his parents before they split.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Facing a murder charge as a community struggles to answer the question why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. A beautiful and popular math teacher, just 24 years old, found dead, her throat slit. Who killed Ms. Ritzer?
Well, now the prime suspect is a young boy, just 14 years old, quiet and withdrawn, in her algebra class. We are taking your calls. Out to John Zaremba, reporter with the Boston Herald. John, thank you for being with us. What happened?
JOHN ZAREMBA, BOSTON HERALD: Good evening, Nancy. As we have determined so far, what we have is a 13-year-old freshman student in Colleen Ritzer`s math class, charged with not only her murder. This all took place last month, and he was initially charged with her murder, but he was indicted just last week on additional charges that no one was really expecting, and those charges included aggravated rape and armed robbery.
GRACE: Oh, oh, oh. You know, Darrell Cohen, you and I both prosecuted in inner city Atlanta, and there`s certainly never a lack of business there, but there`s no way that this -- he`s a boy -- is going to be treated as a boy. These are two of the designated felonies, the seven deadly sins, let`s see. There`s murder, rape, aggravated sodomy, kidnap, arson, armed robbery, and aggravated assault, I think, so he`s going to be treated as an adult, as he should, if this is true.
COHEN: It depends on what the evidence is, Nancy. It is possibly evidence is not as bad as the charges, and if that`s the case --
GRACE: She had her throat slit.
COHEN: She may have had her throat slit, but we don`t know that. We haven`t seen it, we haven`t seen the forensics. We have to see.
GRACE: Let`s find out what we know. I agree with you on that. I agree. We`ve got to find out what we know. Out to Matt Zarrell, what do we know?
ZARRELL: Nancy, what we know is that police recovered surveillance video from over 200 cameras inside the school, and discovered moment by moment how the student followed the teacher into the bathroom, into the female -- women`s bathroom, came out, went back in with a recycling bin, went out to the wooded area and dumped the body. And then, Nancy, after killing her and dumping the body, he went to the movies.
GRACE: OK, whoa, wait, went to the movies. Do you know what movie he went to go see?
ZARRELL: Yes, I do, Nancy. He went to see "Blue Jasmine," the new Woody Allen film.
GRACE: So he went to go see a movie about Madoff. Is that what you`re telling me?
ZARRELL: Well, they traced his cell phone pings and they confirmed with the theater that he went there. Sources are saying he also went to Wendy`s in addition to the movie theater.
GRACE: All right. Unleash the lawyers. Cohen and Hansen, line up. All right, to you, Hansen, they`ve got him on video, you heard Cohen, blah blah blah. We don`t know what happened, well, we do know what happened. Then he goes out and enjoys a Wendy`s burger. I don`t know what, Angus, double meat, I don`t know, and watches a movie. After he rapes and silts the throat of everybody`s favorite math teacher.
HANSEN: Nancy, it`s going to have to be an insanity defense. It`s going to have to be. And in Massachusetts, it is the prosecution`s burden to prove sanity. So here he`s going to have to look back at his childhood, the fact that he had problems with his father and was allegedly abused by his father, and they`ll have to bring in experts to say that under the Massachusetts law, he didn`t know that what he was doing was wrong. It`s the only thing they have in this horrible case.
GRACE: Well, he`s got one thing on his side, Darrell Cohen, No. 1, just recently our esteemed United States Supreme Court said that no one under 18 could be put to death. So he can`t get the death penalty, but also in Massachusetts, you can kill as many people as you want to there, you never get the death penalty.
COHEN: He`s not going to get the death penalty, Nancy.
GRACE: I just said that.
COHEN: Exactly, but he may very well get life. He may be treated as an adult, and he may very well be treated as a child, because what he did after the murder and after the evidence shows that he didn`t know what he was doing. He didn`t know right from wrong.
GRACE: No, it shows he`s cold and remorse-less. And he`s going to get life without parole. That`s what that shows.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Everyone`s favorite math teacher, a beautiful young teacher, just 24, found dead, throat slit. Matt Zarrell, what more can you tell me?
ZARRELL: Nancy, when cops discovered the teen, in his backpack they turned up a blood-stained box cutter. When they asked him about it, where the blood came from, he allegedly responded "the girl." Also in his possession were credit cards and driver`s licenses belonging to the teacher, as well as a pair of the teacher`s underwear.
GRACE: Everyone, on that note, let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Specialist Christopher Moon, just 20, Tucson, Arizona. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal. Gave up a college baseball scholarship to enlist. Parents Brian and Marsha, sister Sunday. Christopher Moon, American hero.
Everyone, North Gwinnett Church, annual jingle jog race, Saturday December 14. It`s to help Cooper O`Brien, a little boy battling clear cell sarconoma (sic). A rare and aggressive cancer. For info, go to jinglejogsuwanee.com, or donate at curecooper.com.
Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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